I Live In a Sexless Marriage - Forum & Chat Board | "Refusers" Are People Too...Where's that forum???

I am curious if you had desire and passion for your husband prior to marriage, or if there was ever any "chemistry" between the two of you.

My opinion is that since you have tried everything, the only thing left to do is to be honest with him, and tell him that you don't plan on having sex with him.  Let him decide if he wants to live without it.  At least you will rid yourself of the guilt and pressure.

BTW-check out some of the health benefits to having an active sex life.  I have tried to post links, but can't seem to get thru the filtering system here.  Webmd has some interesting articles on the subject.

Good luck!

I guess the connecting thread between the sexless and the refusers is that we both do not know how to resolve the issue.  Thanks keshanah for indicating how the situation has affected you and how hurt you are.

I agree that it would be excellent to see more success stories about,  so that we could learn from their experiences.

I agree Spinel,

Both groups are clueless as to how to remedy the situation. There are programs for other issues that may arise in marriage (i.e domestic violence, cheating), but there arent any resources for the masses in regard to creating and sustaining healthy sexual relations in marriage.

****I came to this site today for the first time ever seeking to find some insight on my husband’s feelings and hoping for stories of triumph from people like me who really desire healthy, happy marriages. Instead however, I have only found threads of….lynch mobs for lack of a better term. There is so much “us” versus “them” and even a very interesting thread of hurting people who actually have banded together to discuss possible extramarital affairs.****

First of all, we are glad that you stopped by. We always welcome feedback and info from a refuser.

If you think for one minute that none of us on here doesn't really desire a healthy happy marriage, then you have totally missed the purpose of the ILIASM group. Evidently, you have not read all the stories. Granted, there are many, but there are a lot of heartbreaking stories that show we are people with very deep feelings.

What you see that you call a "lynch mob", the "us" vs "them" or us out to "hurt" our refuser by extramarital affairs.......is thousands of hurting, frustrated, angry people who come here to vent in their writings to try to make some sense of this hell called a sexless marriage.

We "let it all out" here because most of us has tried to work this out with our refuser, to no avail. There are a few success stories and those are shared here as well to give others some hope.

So hang out here with us, give feedback, but please do so without judgment. Everyone on here is either in the process or has already found what works in their lives.

What some of us would not give to have a refuser that actually did want to find a solution with us.......there are a very few on here that does.

I would be safe in saying that by the time someone finds and joins this group, they have tried just about everything they can think of to rectify their situation. Sharing info with those who are in the same shoes helps shed new light and maybe a little hope for them.

Maybe you can gain some of that also by reading and sharing your stories. But I will tell you this much, talking to a refuser has long been tried by us all, with little or no results.....or none of us would be here.

I was by no means diminishing or minimizing the feelings of those being refused, but speaking from a different point of view.

The refused are just as valid as some refusers, but a move toward change is more productive than some of the negativity I have read.

In my case, it's like trying to find food for the starving but at the same time taking the brunt of the blame for why there is no food.

There is no side choosing in my post, and it is just as valid as any other ILIASM post because I share the same struggle.

What I was exposing is that there are some "refusers" out there who do care and want there to be help and change.

There is no BIGGER hurt for either party; if we are in unhappy marriages, then we are all hurting. 

Also, I do not know what you misunderstood as "judgement", but I was sharing MY story for 99% of the post with the exception of my introduction. I have no cause for finger pointing, just seeking help and advice just like everyone else.

I do  understand what you are conveying here. My point was that even though what you see may be considered negative, it is vent that is not healthy to stay inside of us. Not implying at all that one hurt is any bigger than the other.

You will see that in a lot of cases here, the refusers are having affairs, which is why they are refusers. That in itself is very hurtful to the refused. Self esteems are low to start with and the causes of refusing are many.

So we began to build ourselves up to a much healthier state so that we can think more clearly in order to make our decisions. The majority of us are moving mentally to do this, it takes time and reading the stories/comments made by us in order to witness this.

So please don't take my post personally. It just appeared that you took the site personally. Thought I would explain what the purpose of the site is. There are a lot of first timers who come on here, give their POV without considering where we all are at and where we have come from.

We all are aware that a sexless/intimacyless marriage is only a symptom of greater issues in the majority here.

Why do you feel like a piece of meat being raped when you have sex with someone you love and care about?  It seems that this statement needs deep exploration to find the underlying cause of your issues.

And thank you for portraying your side of the issue.  It obviously weighs as heavily on you as it does on your husband.  You are obviously a caring person and are trying to get to the root of the issue.  The same cannot be said for all refusers.  In fact, I would venture to say that only a small percentage of refusers feel the way you do and have done as much as you have.  I can tell you that my wife certainly doesn't give a rat's *** about how I feel.  She's done nothing to try to understand, nothing to try to relieve the situation.

There seem to be many reasons why people avoid sex with their spouses, ranging from abuses endured during childhood to just falling out of love to certain personality disorders.  Spending the rest of our lives in a happy and fulfilling marriage is not a trivial task.  Good marriages don't happen without understanding, compromise, adaptability, flexibility on the part of BOTH parties.

Keshanah,

Both you and your husband have got to rediscover each other again. You've got to make quality time for each other - just the two of you. I realise this is hard but losing the other person for ever is much harder!!

It's a twoway street and requires effort on both sides. When the chemistry was there it required effort that both of you put in without realising it - giving time to and for each other.

I realise with kids in the mix this is hard, but there is time after they are in bed for you to get to "know" each other again. Take it slowly, and make it regular and I am failry sure things will once again happen for you both.

Take time to get to know him again - you like what you saw the first time around, why not again?

Thanks Jo,

I really appreciate your comment and am going to try and implement many of the suggestions I am receiving here.

H4TB,  you say you had a long distance relationship during which the chemistry was great.  My husband and I also had a long distance relationship with great chemistry and yet...when we moved in together, the chemistry (for him anyway) just seemed to fizzle.

What I think happened with us is that while we were having our long distance relationship, we only saw each other (in person...we had webcams) about once a month and it was easy to be excited to see each other....once we moved in together, our radically different sex drives reared their ugly heads and then...when I wanted sex 2 or 3 times a week and he could easily go for a week or more without....that turned to me nagging and imagining all kinds of things and then constantly questioning him about it and that causing him to shut down even more...

A vicious cycle that really just boils down to two people that would have found out a LOT sooner that their sex drives were incompatible if we had dated normally and not long distance.  Kwim? 

In our case, I have decided that since I love him as much as I do, I will back off and work on myself and hopefully he will build back some of his desire for me that he lost from my nagging, and if not...it remains to be seen if I can learn to live in a marriage where love is given but not in the way that I really feel it.

Good luck to you....I understand how difficult it is to be in a marriage where you want so badly to be together but are sad just the same.

Michelle

I'm a new member, so please excuse any procedural gaffes on my part.  My husband and I have struggled with this for some 12 years, now.  I am the "refuser," although in retrospect, I believe that sex between established couples is much more complex than just an interaction between an "initiator" and a "refuser." 

First of all, basic libido is driven by hormones, testosterone to be precise.  Both genders have testosterone, although men have approximately 40 x the amount of circulating testosterone as women.  That's not a guestimate, but an actual clinically proven ratio.  So, most men can want sex almost reflexively, like wanting to eat a meal.  Women require quite a bit more stimulation, both emotional and physical, in order to get to a basic level of excitement.  Sex is a very primitive impulse, tied to the creation of life itself, and the emotions surrounding it are often quite disturbing to us pent-up Americans.  Forget the chocolate, roses and candles often advised by (lame) marriage counselors.  You need a dynamic that causes a strong emotional response and also creates desire.  A book I found really helpful is "Mating in Captivity" by Esther Perel.  She is European, but is a marriage counselor in NYC; she believes that the belief in egalitarianism in American marriages, as well as our legacy of puritanism, kills sex in marriages. 

Anyway, to make a long story short--we haven't been able to resolve our sexual problems, and will probably have to split up.  I don't want to minimize the sadness we both feel about this. 

However, I now think I understand much better now how incompatible we were, sexually, when we were married.  Unfortunately, I thought that sexual problems we were having at the beginning would work themselves out, just because we were both nice people. 

Refusers aren't bad people, and initiators aren't, either.

It is very heartening to hear from more "refusers" on this board.  Very often we only hear from those who are being refused - and it is therefore difficult to develop a truly balanced perception of the issues when the largest number of contributions favour one side.

Schadenflow's comment:                                                Refusers aren't bad people, and initiators aren't, either   is very true and important for both "sides" to accept.  There ARE however individuals (no doubt on both sides) whose behaviour is NOT acceptable for various reasons.

Hoping4the best, your contributions - both in this and other posts you have made - are valuable and helpful for those of us trying to understand the "other side".  You have obviously addressed this issue in your own life and marriage with concerted effort and you are to be congratulated and commended for that.

Instead however, I have only found threads of….lynch mobs for lack of a better term. There is so much “us” versus “them” and even a very interesting thread of hurting people who actually have banded together to discuss possible extramarital affairs.

Like JustMe, I did find this comment from you quite confronting.  I cam imagine that the many comments from Initiators must seem like "a slap in the face" to others, but I truly do NOT believe that posters here are of the "lynch mob" mentality!!

The thread about "affairs" actually started as a tongue in cheek comment a couple of years ago - and developed a life of its own.  Interestingly, a large number of the posters on that particular thread are NOT members of ILIASM!

I think it is important to remember that, whichever "side" of the situation a poster happens to be on, the very presence of that person on ILIASM means that she/he IS very committed to making the relationship work.  

This means that, despite the occasional harsh comment directed at "refusers" in general, most such comments are directed only at individuals.  This is an important distinction to make.  Individual "refusers" do make marriages very unhappy.   No doubt the same can be said of some initiators, but for other reasons.

Power                                                                                 I understand, appreciate and sympathise with your remarks about "power" in the relationship.  It must be awful to know that you are unable to change something which you KNOW is causing your husaband stress.

However, many "refusers" demonstrate none of your self awareness or emotional intelligence.  Many refuse to accept that there is anything amiss - and blame intitiators for being "sex mad" or for being unhealthy in their desire for sex.  Many do nothing at all to address the issue - nor do they express any remorse for the pain they cause.

It is THESE people for whom the question of wielding power becomes much more legitimate than in a situation such as your's.

And the person withholding or denying sex is ALWAYS in the most powerful position - regardless of whether they are there by choice or from natural inclination.

An initiator cannot force sex onto an unwilling partner unless he/she is prepared to brutalise his/her spouse.  In any loving relationship this is out of the question.   (In ANY relationship it SHOULD be out of the question!)

Given that marriage is the only relationship sanctioned by society in which sex is supposed to take place, if one spouse cannot or will not have sex, that condemns the other spouse to a sexless existence - OR to cheating . . . .

It is the very unfairness of this that causes an enormous amount of resentment in those who want and need sex but whose spouses do NOT.

So I urge you to recognise that what might seem like a "lynch mob mentality" is actually the result of very sad situations, in which there are two people bound to each other by vows and promises, who cannot experience the satisfaction and fulfillment of a complete married relationship . . .

Please understand that my comment is in NO way critical of you as an individual.  I am simply attempting to explain WHY the posts might seem to you to be one-sided and unbalanced.

 H4tB

Your post is delightful.  Perhaps some discussion of your interaction pattern would help all of us.  

- When you saw each other twice a month - the desire and chemistry were there and the sex was enjoyable.  Did you ****** during that time period?  Did the sex leave you feeling closer to your husband emotionally?

Did the problems begin right after you moved in?  Was the pattern simple - as in:

- He immediately began to initiate sex much more frequently then you wanted

- You quickly began to reject many of his offers

- He - feeling rejected - began tyring to get emotionally closer to you in non-sexual ways.  And those attempts simply made you feel emotionally crowded/claustrophibic and EQUALLY turned off sexually

- He begins to get frustrated/angry and a new dynamic enters the picture, he is now upset at you and pressuring you to change since your behavior is making him frustrated.  

This cycle repeats - gets worse - and the next thing you know sex is almost totally not happening any more.  

How far is that sequence from what actually transpired?

Could you list a set of behaviors which if he could totally change, would greatly improve your interaction?  Do you think he is capable of impelemnting those changes?  

What would be an acceptable sexual frequency to you?

To him?

I thought some of the same things when I first started reading in this forum but then I realized that for the most part, most here are just trying to figure things out. We all have times when we are in the anger stage of grieving. There are a lot of defence mechanisms that come into play when our spouce is not into us or if we are being called a seemingly derogitory label such as "refuser". If your husband knows that you are torn up about the problem, he is a lot better off than most who use this forum.

We often look for reasons for our spouse's disinterest in sex. That's because there is always the chance that it is the fault of the refused and we don't like that idea. My reason of choise is hormones. Why does the average 8 year old think sex is revolting? Hormones.

I watched a film on wolf biology once. When the pups are born, the prolactin levels of the whole pack (males and females) goes up. Prolactin makes them less interested in mating or roaming. So in other words I think it's perfectly natural for a woman with kids to have a decline in libido.

H4tb, you mention that you sometimes wish he would cheat. Just have a "sex nanny". Cool term. It would a brave thing that only a few spouses have done to tell him to go ahead and find a playmate. I'm sure you agree that sex does not equal love. So if he has sex with someone else, that doesn't mean he doesn't love you. There, of course, is the fear of the playmate wanting all of him and of course, what people will think if they find out.

I believe that befor the major religions came into being, sex was something you did with your spouse if they were into it or if not, you just did it with a friend or relative who was into it. Once populations grew and groups were less like an island, STDs became a factor. Laws had to made that forbid bisexuality (lying down with a man as with a woman) and otherwise fooling around. It wasn't so bad (at least for the guys) because women were made the property of the husbands.

As others have said and you acknowleged yourself, there is no socially acceptable solution to this problem. We are the pioneers to finding a new loving solution to it.

I must play devil's advocate as I have researched this over and over. The evidence that refusing sex is considered controlling behavior is really a simple one. Your husband cannot force you to have sex. That's called rape and has legal consequences. Refusing sex to  your husband is perfectly legal and is totally in your control. How much simpler can it be? You come in here and call us a lynch mob and then expect sympathy over being dishonest with yourself as to the cause of your lack of desire. "I don't know" is a cop out. You simply don't want to admit what  is behind it. Claiming to "care so much I get nauseous" is just a ploy for gathering allies. I've been with this group for years and while they are often willing to admit where they fail the relationship, the refusers who came in here all say the same thing you do. "I don't know why". It's disingenuous and frankly, insulting to my intelligence. When you have the backbone to admit why you choose to hurt your husband, you'll find a way to remedy it. Whether or not you share that here is irrelevant. You're choosing to hurt your husband and it will lead to misery for him, your children and ultimately you unless of course, you're hoping to be divorced or have him cheat on you. I didn't spend nineteen years dealing with our societies most dysfunctional members (convicts) to be snowed like this. Here's an insight to what is likely your problem. You've been with him 6 years (obviously living together since your kids are older than your marriage) You married at 22. You're probably feeling like you've missed out on the fun in life, tied to the house and two kids while other friends your age are still partying and clubbing. You're bored and frustrated and believe you made a mistake. If these things are close to accurate, odds are you will cheat on him or just divorce him outright, proclaiming the whole time "I don't know why I don't want sex with him." The key words will turn out to be "with him." Someone free, handsome and willing will suddenly revive your libido and then things will turn ugly from there. How can I say this? I've read literally hundreds of similar stories and even watched them play out in real life. You have a lot of nerve calling us a lynch mob while playing your games of "Poor Me" and "Ain't It Awful?". No sympathy here girl, try down the street.

 What can you do?

Let him go, because you're just not into him. You're not sexually attracted to him, and it's time you admit it to yourself and to him and move on with your lives. How you do this is up to you. Some people divorce, others "open" their marriage. Some people adopt a "don't ask, don't tell" policy towards affairs.

When you think about it, it isn't so odd. There are hundreds of people we know that we're not sexually attracted to, and others that we are. Sometimes our spouses fall into the first group. The tragedy is when we know we're not attracted to someone but marry them anyway.

By the way, your math isn't working for me. You say "we have 2 young children" and then list a child that is 7 years old - older than the 6 years you've been with your husband. Is this child from a previous relationship or was there a mistake somewhere?

I am in no way seeking sympathy for my situation, just some new ideas for remedies that I havent tried. Im sorry you are in your situation and feel the need to cast your anger onto me because you disagree with my point of view. I do truly love my husband, and have done very much to fix my situation. My doctor thinks I am too young to have hormone deficiencies, but I will try out that hypothesis.

I will repeat AGAIN that I was in no way attempting to cast judgment of offend with my introduction, but was expressing my surprise and disappointment at the lack of solutions available...since in THIS country there is freedom of speech.

There will always be naysayers no matter how sincere or genuine you are, and I suppose today that is you my friend. I do hope that maybe some of the things I've tried in the past will help someone else who's reading because that is the purpose of this type of sharing...to help each other in a community environment.

I have much better things to do with my life and time than expose my personal life, however painful, to strangers and wait for people like you to attempt to tear down my character. But the thing is, like you and many others this feels like a last hopeful resort and I will continue to post how I feel as this forum is NOT just for "initiators", it is for ALL married people in sexless relationships.

No matter how minute the amount of well-meaning refusers, we are here and believe it or not want help, support and answers as well.

And as I say to all who take thier time to communicate with me...good luck with your situation and thanks for your opinions.

As you can see there are some who are so ruled by their fearful ego, that they become hateful about it. Since they don't like to see themselves as hateful, they project that emotion onto the object of thier percieved threat.

 Great thread and thanks to everyone who is sharing, esp. Hoping4thebest.  H4TB, thanks for the post as it is insightful and we always welcome the Refuser's point of view.  One thing though, forget about the self defense and taking the moral high ground, people who are hungry for intimacy and acceptance from their SO and they are going to be mad and pissy and hurt, just let it slide off my dear, there is no moral high ground here (note last reference to Deguarddog).  

That being said I am going to go out on a limb and say I have a hard time with "I don't know" stuff.  If you had the feeling once and now you don't then something changed and you are the only person who can figure it out.  I have many ideas as to why but I guess we all have our own ideas of why a Refuser refuses.  

Two things I want to ask since you are so forthcoming:  do you have sexual thoughts and fantasy?  Do you pleasure yourself?  

These question are quite important for you to help figure IT out.  If you have sexual thoughts and you pleasure yourself then you clearly have normal sexual feelings and you just don't want to share yourself with your husband.  If you truly have no sexual thoughts whatsoever you need to take the relationship another direction completely.  

You see many Refusers claim like you have not to have sexual feelings but what they leave off is the last part of the sentence "I do not have sexual feelings....FOR HIM"  And while many a Refuser claims no sexual feelings it turns out they are cheating (not saying you are obviously) or they ********** with vivid fantasy or they are so into their spouses they shut down sexually because they are afraid of being close and sometimes the puppy just grows up and you no longer want to play with the doggy in the back yard.  

At any rate, welcome and thanks for sharing.

This is my 1st post here.

This so much struck a chord because this is what happens to me and my wife every 4-8 weeks. We call it the cycle. Shes been saying for 4 yrs its never about just the sex its about the whole relationship. I have plotted out the major rows and her moods following them and they are cyclical and involve her rejections as the core (IMO). Then there will be the divorce discussions and distress for a few days to a week - then the "light" will flick on and shell be back to her normal self and we will make love again once or maybe (if lucky twice in a week) then it starts all over again. She gets more niggled and then starts to punish and withdraw (emotionally and physically and as a friend). 

Last week I crawled into bed and moved my leg up onto hers and she said "whoever told you that was nice?". Most of you know here how your heart sinks and you then feel sick and angry and tearful / rejected all in one go. I angrily reminded her that I did not appreaciate a posting on my F.Book wall (from a Mood Survey re: What would P*** do if you hugged him right now?) from her telling our relatives and friends "He would say what have you done wrong ? or what do you want now?". I pointed out to her that I had to live in this emotionless / loveless and sexless life and I didnt want others to start getting an inckling of what was going on! She said she was being self-depreciating with that post. It has been nearly a week and there has still been no physical contact / show of emotion. I know all about childishness and the triggers and I can feel myself succuming to it and cant stop myself. I have stopped hurting myself though from several years ago as it served no purpose to anyone esp. me.

I feel so rejected and hurt that for 4 yrs she has told me to stop anon.sex.texting women (I always thought better than affair!?) - It was hard as it was one of my only releases - but I stopped. She told me to stop locking my phone - I did - She told me she wanted an additional days child care out of me (despite fact I work very long hours at night and weekends) - I took her up on it ! She told me she wanted more help around the house ! I did that too (I already did all the cooking and shopping anyway and a lot of the tiding!) - She told me she wanted a night out with her mates every month - She got that (infact it was me who found a new babysitter after asking her to do it for over a year!!!) - she told me she wanted space in the evenings with the kids to watch soaps etc when they were in bed and go to bed to sleep when she wanted so I took an Out of Hours job 3 evenings a week!

She has continously pushed the boundaries of "blame" for over 4 yrs now as to why she has little libido. The F.Book incident was the 1st "chink" in her armour. Last night in bed during a "discussion" she realised the blame game cant work anymore and she said "I know I am such a Frigid *****. I hate it!". Heart sinking self loathing sick feeling again when I asked her what she hated (she has previously told me during a down time that I made her "skin crawl") . She said the lack of sex but she doesnt know why ! At least there is a chink that she is starting to admit there is a problem and it may lie with her (as well as me). I just quietly said "well you used to love it before the kids came along" and she just said "I know I did". This is the 1st real admission EVER. I was proud of myself for not getting angry / starting a worse arguement and was just trying to cuddle her and then going off to sleep calmly (she was already snoring and had moved my hand off her breast!).

She has got very defensive and emotionless this morning and then I have started the cycle again of being angry and rejected and defensive demanding to know when she is going to go to the Doctors or get help (with or without me tagging along!). She refused to give me a kiss before going off to work giving our little boy a big slobbery kiss and hug and when I asked why she said "because of all the terrible things youve said to me this morning". I lost temper when and I slammed the door - so now its me whos ashamed and let myself down again and Ive let her win again and I feel like **** all day again. 

Before I get shouted down - because of my profession (and hers) I can catergorically suggest she needs to see a Doc about this as I strongly suspect she might be anaemic esp. during and after her periods if not the whole time. I also do not think it is hormonal / depression (I wondered if she was bi-polar for a long time and there is also Schizophrenia in her immediate family), as she is ALWAYS OK and her normal self around everyone else. Nothing I do seems to make her happy at home.

I have also wondered if she has got PTSD from experiences. She had a horrendous delivery of our 1st child in 2001 resulting in Crash Anaesthesia after 20 hours and then bled everywhere whilst ontop of me at 12 weeks during her 2nd pregnancy in 2006 requiring a Paramedic Ambulance. We thought he'd gone but he is sat infront of me right now. She wont talk about any of this focusing it all back onto me and my behaviours as to why she doesnt want sex (much / at all). We were told as soon as he was born that she must NEVER have children again through fear of bleeding to death next time. For 1 year she said reason she didnt want to was therefore fear of getting pregnant again and so I lied to the doctors ("yes ! everything is FINE in my marriage" - to get a Vasectomy in April 2008). I KNEW and predicted it wouldnt make a difference and I was right. I even wonder if HRT or the pill might / would help her? I have even wondered about the early menopause as when it does happen she seems very "dry" and that is very unusual. Dont know do I as she wont get help....  

Some of you are going to tell me to leave her but I cant because i) I love her and dont want to be without her and I want to help her through this ! ii) We have 2 beautiful kids who need us iii) Financial - its not an option. I dont care if I dont get sex but I cant leave my kids.

Some of you will say she doesnt love me ! The councellor said that to her once and she was basically told to end it if thats the way she felt as there was nothing in it for her or me - she is still here 6 months later. I also know for a fact its not an affair because Ive tried to test her out / catch her out and shes come up trumphs every time. I honestly think shes too tired / selfish for an affair. I could be wrong of course ! (hope not!)

This is different to the poster that started this i) she wont try the things you have tried and has got a level of denial about her "refusing" that you dont have ii) when we do have sex - generally she loves it and says its going to happen again - soon (it never does) then I get comfortable and then it starts all over again ! I think all you can do it keep going forward ?