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completelyinlove completelyinlove 46-50, M 107 Answers Oct 4, 2012 in EP

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As someone who's been a volunteer in battered women's shelters for several years and seen women die "submitting" to some husbands, that would be a resounding "no". All women should not have to mindlessly submit. It's one of many reasons I am no longer a practising Christian; the fundamentalists would oppress women as completely as fundamentalist Muslims do.

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what a pity you have had the word of God stolen away from you by atheists.

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In fact, it was corrupted by so-called "Christians" like yourself. Atheists didn't lure me away---I'm not one, btw---I still believe in a higher power. But fundamentalist Christians are the ones who make Christianity hateful and oppressive, only them. And I want no part of that ugliness.

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who are the so called fundamentalist Christians?

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Often the ones quoting scriptures with no knowledge of the historical context, in which they existed, who want to take the Bible literally.

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oh you mean the ones you don't agree with..lol
i always wondered who these fundamentalists Christians are, they get talked about a lot yet no one seems to know who they are.

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I don't agree with ANY of them. (What part of "not a practising Christian" did you miss, lol ?) But there are Christians who are kind and charitable, who don't judge, (lest they be judged), who use a soft answer to turn away anger and seem to be interested in setting an example than preaching. Those individuals have my respect, at least.

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you mean those who change the word to suit you, the thing is they are not Christians at all, yo have been conned.

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Says you. I do still remember something about "free will"...? And if the "kinder gentler" Christians are not actually "Christians", they certainly represent the faith much better than the rest. In any case, it's really no one else's business what I believe or don't, is it ?

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if they change the word of God how can they be Christians, if you want to believe the bits you like and ignore the rest that is up to you or anyone else.
mormons and JW'S claim to be christians they clearly are not.

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In ANY case, it's really no one else's business. Bye, now.

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bye, let me know if you find any fundamentalist Christians, i would love to know who they are.

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lol.

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If you're going to come into a two-person dialogue, at least read ALL of it. I stated from the onset I'm NOT a practising Christian. I also stated whatever I might believe or not, is nobody's business.

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i think the question is relevant as you said you where a Christian though.

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RIF...not relevant, since I'm not one now. I also said it's nobody's business---apparently she missed THAT, too.

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it's a debate that means people are free to question or comment.

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It's really not. You asked a question, I answered honestly. Nothing you or anyone else says is going to change my mind. And you prove the point that Christians are basically bullies by continuing to press the issue.

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i'm not looking to change your mind but it is important to me that you know what the bible says, you cannot bully someone in to or out of faith.

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It's none of your business. I'm not going to trust or believe a word you say; you're wasting your time. And mine. I'll block you if you continue with the harassment. Not sure how else to make it clear.

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Actually, the bible says something else than that, but of course, if you take half a sentence out of something, it is a misrepresentation as to what it actually says.

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Ah...savedbygracealone: I didn't post the question, I was merely one of several who answered and, as has been my experience, my answer was not respected by so-called Christians. I warn people before I block if they start to become abusive, as a courtesy. I wasn't angry initially, but people who believe women should submit simply because they ARE women tend not to respect them very much, and so the conversation continued, in spite of my attempts to withdraw. I realise this is my interpretation of Christianity, based on my experiences with those who claim to be Christians, including yourself, btw. You didn't have to address my response either. You could very well have minded your own business. Blocking has the effect of keeping busybodies away, which imo, is effect enough.

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THANK YOU bijouxbroussard!!!!

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What she said!!!

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What she said, again.

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Fundamentalists don't even know that much about their Holy Bible. All they know is the biases that their fanatical pastor rants about in sermons. The only way to learn about Christianity is the same way that you learn about any subject. You go to college; enroll in a religion course; and earn a passing grade. (Hint: You don't learn about Christianity by going to church.)

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and a fundamentalist is....

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Maybe you should try reading ALL verses in the bible about husbands and wives. It says for husbands to love their wives as God loves the church. It also says be gentle with them and do not be harsh to them. The men than batter their wives are clearly not Christians. You insinuate that christian men beat their wives. A christian man would NEVER hit his wife or abuse her. He would cherish her,respect her and love her the core of his sole!

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Unfortunately, that is not true. Christian men abuse their wives all the time. I know of many wives who have been abused physically, verbally, neglect, etc. Obviously the Christian men who do these things are not following scripture and are not acting Christlike but they are indeed Christians. The are Christians who chose to live sinfully. If you want to be technical about it any husband who violates any of the God commands for how he treats his wife is on the same level as the man who physically abuses his wife. Sin is sin.

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There are Christian men who do beat their wives. They identify themselves as Christians and as such claim the right to beat women in order to obtain submission. If they are misrepresenting Christians, take it up with them. I'm no longer a Christian, so it has nothing to do with me any longer.

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Your a typical American female feminist who only reads one part of the bible that fits your agenda. If you read further it says men are to love their wives just as God loves the church and do not be harsh with them. It instructs us men to love our wives,cherish them and treat them gently. Of course your man hating agenda skips those details. When your dealing with low life trailer trash drug addicts,alcoholics and mental cases then your going to get the domestic violence. Uhhh, YOUR CLIENTS! Yet, I'm sure you also believe the women in your shelter were simply beaten for no reason and they had no part in provoking or instigating these fights. I'm sure they were kind and loving fragile little angels brutally beaten down by an evil wife beater who just comes home and starts the beating for sport. Women like you are the reason good men are going to foreign countries for wives. Hundreds of thousands. Well, probably millions!

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Good. If they want women to beat, they SHOULD go. Many of the women who come to this country are in our shelters, sick of that kind of treatment. And fortunately there are good men here who don't feel the need to do that. Is this how you represent Christian manhood, by coming to a post over a year and a half old, with fresh insults and accusations ? I do appreciate you illustrating what I was saying from the onset about the cruelty and vindictiveness of so-called Christians.

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That book is more outdated than 8 track pla<x>yers.

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to me you are very wrong but thanks for your answer

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We all have our own opinions. This is just mine. I thank you for respecting that.

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no problem :-)

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The Bible also says:<br />
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“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (Peter 2:18)<br />
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Yowza, guess emancipation was a bad idea. Hell, if you put that to the idea of subservient nations, the American revolution was a bad idea. And I thought we liked freedom. <br />
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See, our problem here is that people have a pre-existing world view (I hold women in contempt) and then seek evidence to reinforce it. And when you have a two thousand year old book chock full of minute rules about daily living, it's easy to pick some and ignore others as suits whatever pre-existing beliefs you have. That doesn't sound like particularly sound theology.

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slaves even became bondservants, they chose to stay with their original master after being set free, i guess being a slave but eating was better than dying a free man.

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The treatment of the slave is irrelevant, it's an absolute denial of personal freedom. That's a bad thing, right?

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it does not deny freedom it says if you are a slave don't cause trouble do your best for them.

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Right, which is a bad thing to say. Slaves should be free and rebel against their masters. A rebellious slave to me is a hero.

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Don't even bother arguing. This guy wants to go back to two thousand years ago. He espouses slavery, and wants to put his foot on the neck of his woman.

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my wife is delighted to have submitted, i do not agree with slavery neither does the bible.

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You, and the Bible, have both condoned slavery in this conversation. We're done here.

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Not trying to defend , but if you notice in the bible, the majority of slavery was used as a punishment.

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Well the trick here is that the Bible was written during a time when slavery was just a matter of fact part of the economy. Emancipation wasn't an issue people talked about, it was just the way things were. The important ideas in the Bible are forgive, love, respect and reverence. So the rules for slaves in the Bible are not relevant any more because our culture has moved on. My argument is that the OP's quote about women submitting to men is irrelevant in today's day and age. Focus on the love and forgiveness. Leave patriarchy and slavery in the history books where they belong.

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What he said!!

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Huh???

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That is one question I would ask Jesus or God if I had the chance......why would he suggest that slaves submit to their masters and their masters not set them free ?

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I live next to deeply, religious Christian neighbors and the wife does the cooking, cleaning etc. But she doesn't submit to her husband in any shape way or form. They run a partnership :) What it should be. They have 2 grown daughters and 1 grown son. They're modern but never let anything get in between them and the Lord. I admire them and I admire the wife :). I think they have a good thing going

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they may be "religious" but they do not follow the word of God.

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Yes they do, just because she doesn't submit to him it doesn't mean they're not religious. I think your judgment is pathetic.

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they are "religious" but being "religious" does not do you any good, if they are not living the word that is different, you said they are "religious" not me, I can only go by what the word says.

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I can only go by the word of God it says "wives submit to your husbands"

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Ephesians 5:21 says submit to one another. Submit means put the other first or yield. A husband is told to love his wife like Christ loved the church and died for her. In other words, he must put his wife first before self. In all likelihood petiterebels neighbors mutually submit as is taught in the bible. She probably just doesn't realize they do because she like many have heard the perverted teachings about submission that are so prevalent. Many teach that only the wife is told to put the husband first but the husband is also told to put his wife first. She submits, he sacrifices. In other words they both yield. Ephesians 5:21 is applicable to everyone. Some try to claim that it doesn't apply to husband but that would be ridiculous. If God intended husbands to be exempted he would have said so. Plus it would be ridiculous to say husband must put best interest of every woman at church ahead of his own interest but this principal doesn't apply to his wife. This is a totally Illogical conclusion.

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Then are you willing to risk your life for your wife?

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every single time.

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I understand what you're saying. But I find it offensive.

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I'm sorry that you find it offensive but I think it will strengthen marriages not weaken them

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but christianity isnt the word god , its the word of some bunch of people after jesus .

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but christianity isnt the word of god its the word of some bunch of people who have never met jesus

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I'm 20l, still young and naive. I just got really hurt. The context in which you wrote it in seemed arrogant.

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again my apologies my intention was not to hurt anyone.

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on the contrary it is the word of God.

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"like"
Exactly what I thought! ;)

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If they do have a great relationship there is in all likelihood some submitting occurring. If they are deeply religious they probably submit to one another. In the bible book of Ephesians chapter 5 verse 21 is says submit to one another out of respect for God. That means put others before yourself. My husband and I have this kind of relationship. He puts me first and I put him first. Neither insist upon having their own way. The bible says that a husband and wife are to strive for oneness. That means unity is the goal and that can be reached when you have two people committed to doing what is best for each other. Probably the reason you think that no one submits is due to the way it is most often taught. Many teach that only the wife is to put the husband first leaving the implication that the husband always gets his way and the wife must meekly acquiesce to his every wish and whim. This teaching violates so many biblical principals and it is sad that so many teach this perversion of submission. When both husband and wife submit (put the other first) they will have a lovely relationship.

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From Pharangulia:<br />
"When I started looking up woman-hating Bible quotes, I was a bit overwhelmed; it’s everywhere. I won’t even try to flood this article with the many contemptuous words about women that you can find there, but will give a few examples. Job 14 is an interesting one, because it at least acknowledges that men are damned, too…but why are they so troubled? Because they’re born of those filthy, dirty, nasty women.<br />
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Man that is born of a woman is of few days and full of trouble.<br />
He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.<br />
And doth thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment with thee?<br />
Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. <br />
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I don’t think I like how the Bible talks about my mother.<br />
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This wasn’t just an Old Testament aberration, either, to be superceded by the loving Jesus of the New; the apostle Paul was just as terrible a misogynist as any. Here’s the classic 1 Timothy 2:8:<br />
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I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.<br />
In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;<br />
But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.<br />
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.<br />
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.<br />
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.<br />
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.<br />
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.<br />
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Shut up, ladies — it’s your fault we got kicked out of the garden of Eden, and you’re all going to have to pay by suffering in silence.<br />
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I know the next ob<x>jection apologists will make: we shouldn’t read the Bible so literally, and you atheists are just as bad as the fundamentalists. The Bible has to be carefully interpreted, and we need wise men (of course) to extract the deeper truths. So let’s go along with that and ask a few of the church fathers what it all means.<br />
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Let’s see what Tertullian has to say — he’s always fun.<br />
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Woman is a temple built over a sewer, the gateway to the devil. Woman, you are the devil’s doorway. You should always go in mourning and in rags.<br />
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Whoa. Tertullian is one of those fellows you’d really like to see psychoanalyzed; he’s one warped little psycho thug. Maybe he’s not representative at all, and perhaps we should look to a few Catholic saints, who will certainly be more enlightened.<br />
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Here’s St John Chrysostom:<br />
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Among all savage beasts, none is found so harmful as woman.<br />
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Ooops. Maybe St Clement will be friendlier.<br />
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Every woman should be overwhelmed with shame at the thought that she is a woman<br />
"

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ooops some one cam wiki..lol

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Yep. I am with St John Chrysostom. I would rather be thrown into a lions den then ask a woman for a kiss. I dont hate woman, you just don't realise how scary you woman can be.

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Naw...I can google! LOL!! Found this after googling Bible quotes about women...there is a whole radical women's website devoted to bible quotes about women.

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If you were woman so then....
Remember women are mothers which even higher than men

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It is shocking the amount of misogyny that exists in the bible. I choose to follow Jesus example and believe he did much to elevate women.

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Gee, I wonder what gender was the person who wrote that.

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it says husband love your wives as Christ loves the church, so men have an even greater responsibility really

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Didn't christ trash the temple when it did something wrong (the money lenders)? so when your wife annoys you slap her...is that the message here?

Lol ..its fun interpreting scripture however you want!

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I don't find being viewed as less than a man respectful or loving. I was born a woman, not a slave to someone elses gender.

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Thank-you!! One of the comments said "Women try to be like men" I'm sorry, but some 'people' on EP are driving me INSANE :(

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men have a role as head of the house.

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Women are just as capable, and have been proving this for years.

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and that is the problem perhaps.

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For those who are taught they are superior, it would be disturbing.

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'Completely' has a direct line to the man upstairs. God speaks through him. He is the chosen one. Only his interpretation is true. And ask your husband first, next time you decide to contradict the anointed one! You heathen little hussie, you! (Hehe)

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You go KK... preach sister preach! I can't imagine either of my sisters even taking someone who thinks that seriously and they are both regular church goers.

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I know. It's pathetic that anyone would think they're born privelaged just because they "won" (or were given from God) the 50-50 life game. (Girl or boy?) What's sad is they are reassured they're the important gender, so they don't think twice how insulting, damaging, or disgusting this elitist attitude is in society.

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No absolutely not!<br />
Not all husbands are worthy of this. Women were given intelligence and common sense and should exercise judgement as adults.<br />
Husbands and wives should make decisions as equal partners. <br />
That said, there are some who seem to enjoy this particular lifestyle and for them it may work.<br />
For those of us whom couldn't bear to allow someone else's judgement to over ride our own, this is unthinkable. I personally would much rather be single than "submit" or "obey" my husband.

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Sure I'll submit, but I'll also submit to beating his *** down if he tries to slave me.

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We have to take that with a grain of salt, as that was the accepted position of women generally in the period the Bible was written in. I would much rather have someone who I could treat as an intellectual equal, it's more productive that way. No matter how smart you are, you will never be right all the time and it's nice to have someone to suggest alternatives/point out when you wander astray.

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isn't that dangerous.

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What? Trusting your wife to watch your back and help you make important decisions? Hardly. C'mon now, women have as much intellectual authority as men do.

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no, taking scripture with a pinch of salt we could do that with any of it and change it as we see fit.

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We could, but the rational Christian would only do so when the teachings in it reflected the beliefs of the time rather than the word of God. God stated that all of man are equal in his eyes, that includes women.

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I disagree I think once you start adjusting scripture you are on a very slippery slope, we are in this world but not of it, we should be looking to help the world conform to the word not the other way round.

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While that is true many scriptures have been perverted to try to validate certain viewpoints. Take marriage for example, many look only at few verses in isolation (Eph. :22) and forget that the entire new testament is applicable and their interpretation cannot be such that it violates clearly stated principals throughout the new testament. For example: Matthew 20:25-26 ""25 But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 26 It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant" also, Matt. 11:30 "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." also Philippians 2:4-5 "4 not looking each of you to his own things, but each of you also to the things of others. 5 Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus" oh yeah a really important one Ephesians 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;" Many like to teach that only the wife is to give up self and self interest for the husband, in other words the teach the wife die(sacrifice) to self interest like Christ did. OOps isn't that what the husband was told. Yet many subvert this in order to claim authority over the wife. when this is their attitude they have missed the whole point and have certain missed the spirit of the word.

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Didn't Jesus also say to love thy neighbor and do unto others as you would have done unto you? Would you like being treated as lower on the intellectual ladder? Loving thy neighbor means that, if you wish, you can suggest scriptures and such to those who do not share our faith but you cannot force it onto people, as that is what breeds resentment.

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nothing in the word is about treating anyone as if they are dumb.

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Then your wife should not defer to you on every matter, as that would be treating her as if she is not your equal intellectually.

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it has to do with authority not intelligence, is a scientist working for the govt. saying the govt. is more intelligent, no of course not.

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You need to study the scriptures more in depth. There are many many passages directed at the husband and none have to do what lording over his wife. A man who loves his wife as he is commanded to will not expect his wife to defer to him on every matter. Read 1 corinthians 13 for a definition of love. Love does not insist upon its own way. There is nothing that says you must expect your wife to defer to you on everything in fact the opposite is true. Wives are directed to do this to keep peace which is helpful if you have an arrogant selfish, self serving husband. Sometimes it may be the only way to keep peace. But in essence you are say aha look at what God says she must do, that means I can insist upon making all decisions and she must defer to me. Look at what God commanded you to do not what he commanded wife to do. There is also a scripture that says turn the other cheek, does that mean that it is okay for someone to abuse because the bible says turn the other cheek? Of course it doesn't mean that but it is a way to avoid confrontation and controversy. Sad that husbands continue to look at what God has told their wife to do to have a harmonious relationship but neglect to do what God has told them to do. In other words husband exploit their wives. Look at what God has told you to do as a husband and you will quickly figure out that nowhere does it tell you to value your opinions and ideals over your wife's in fact the opposite. Many husbands will stand before the Lord and be called upon to give an answer for these perverted beliefs. God will ask why did you think the command I gave to your wife meant you didn't have to follow the commands I gave to you. By only looking at commands given to her you have perverted the big picture which is unity/oneness.

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That is the scientists job, he is not being treated as if what he is saying has no merit. In fact, politicians and what not defer to scientists often times, as they don't have as much knowledge about whatever field the scientist practices to make an intelligent decision on scientific issues. If your wife is deferring to you on every matter, it is treating her as if her opinions and yes, intellect, is inconsequential and not worthy of note.

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neither is my wife she knows she is loved and i would die for her, i don't treat as a simpleton or beneath me, she is my wife and the mother of my kids.

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I have read your other post and although you say this your words on other post defy this. Honestly I don't understand how some of you men ever get a woman to marry you let alone stay with you. The degrading treatment of your wives is shameful. I truly pity your poor wife to be married to a man like you. I can only imagine how horrible it must be for any woman to be married to a man who believes she is inferior to him. Don't deny this because previous comments by you validate this. I can only imagine the sorrow our Lord feels about the way scriptures have been so perverted to grant God like infallible status to husbands and servitude and denigration to wives. Fortunately they will be relieved of husbands like you in death at least. Marriage relationship will cease to exist upon death. Many women married to pompous arrogant husbands can look forward to that day. Thankful that my husband of 29 years understands the big picture and wants to understand the spirit of the word. He would never selfish expect to have his way on anything that affects both us. We make mutually agreeable decisions because we believe in the oneness God commanded.

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Then why should she defer to you on every matter? Don't you respect her thoughts and opinions?

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Of course i do but at the end of the day one leader so to speak is the clearest way, i take her opinions on board and we work from there.

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Ok, so you work together to come up with solutions for your problems. That's what I was saying from the start. If she thinks something is wrong you'll take her thoughts on the matter into consideration. I don't believe in the whole "be obedient to your husband" thing..that doesn't mean your wife shouldn't listen...just that she has the right to do whatever she thinks is best, regardless of what you think.

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I'm sorry we seem to have been dancing round the same thing.lol.
yes i wouldn't dream of dismissing everything she said that would be silly, the final decision is mine and my wife accepts this but all points are weighed up first.

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There you again, why is final decision yours. If you have to make final decision oneness has failed.....

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What? You little hussie! You commie, liberal loving, tree hugging, leftist media puppet! You anti American, blah blah blah. You will NEVER receive a free, complete set of the books of the Old Testament - signed by God himself (in the form of CompletelyInLove, of course.) For the rest of you, call now. Operators are standing by!

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Good Lord how boring would life be?! No thanks. I need a woman with a spirit and a fire in her belly!

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you don't know how it works.lol

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amen.

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It stops conflict because you are a damn doormat!

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I'm with GSJane on this one. So if you don't agree with your husband on a topic you simply submit to his viewpoint and 'plan of action' how does that reflect your spirt and a 'fire in your belly'? Don't get me wrong... whatever makes you happy in your life is your 'thing', but I can guarantee you and I would not be compatible. If my woman doesn't agree with me I want her to show no hesitation in telling me so.

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I'm with you!

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No. I don't believe that St. Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit when he wrote that. I believe that true Christianity is about treating all people with dignity and respect, not just those born with a penis.

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AMEN gigi!!!!!!

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