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Once, I would shrug off. But three times?
conceptualclarity conceptualclarity 51-55, M 31 Answers Feb 14, 2012

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Enough of the hate mongering. To bow is a sign of respect for the foreign leaders. We need more people in the world showing respect for others whether we agree with them or not. It is the first step towards a peaceful world.

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Facts are facts. How we interpret or twist facts can be understanding or hateful. ...... Fact: Saddam Hussein was an evil man who committed crime against humanity which he justified as being in the interest of national security. Fact: Bush committed similar crimes against humanity in his attack upon, and occupation of Iraq. (Careful of your blood pressure.) Fact: There are people who are still loyal to Saddam and either defend his crimes or claim the accusations against him are Sunni Muslim lies. Fact: There are people loyal to Bush who either defend his crimes or claim the accusations against him are liberal lies. ..... All facts. Who is calling for secrecy, violence, and injustice, and who is calling for the facts to be revealed and due process to be served?

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This is NOT American, sorry! But we bow to each other here when we meet, simply a courtesy - not as deep as Japanese though!

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It is not hate-mongering to criticize the President for subservient behavior that is radically at odds with American traditions. Real hate-mongering, that would be things such as likening George Bush to Saddam Hussein and calling him a war criminal.

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But he is. He authorized torture. That is a war crime. No pinion. No hate mongering. Just fact.

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if the facts are applicable then yes

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You think Bush is a war criminal because he authorized water boarding of Khalid Sheik Muhammad and a couple of other terrorist leaders? When there was a need to unravel plots that could kill thousands more people? If there was a captured terrorist leader whose organization was holding your loved one, would you want him treated like a POW under the Geneva Conventions (which do not apply to terrorists)? Even Eric Holder's Justice Dept. didn't end up prosecuting anybody over the waterboarding.

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Expediency is what turns great nations into authoritarian regimes. Even if I was to concede that expediency was prudent, the fact remains that the government did not stop with known high ranking operatives. The U.S. Government has kidnapped and tortured one American citizen from Oregon, "renditioned" him, and after the torture was over, found out they had the wrong guy. Oops. Add to that the cab drivers and sheep herders that have been tortured, and you have inexcusable crimes. .... You ask if I would oppose the torture if they were holding one of my loved ones. I would ask you, would you oppose it if the U.S. Government tortured one of your loved ones by mistake? .... If we don't hold to our morals and ethics, then we become no better than the people we torture. It used to be that American's understood that if the government had the "right" to torture one person, they could torture anyone and everyone. In the wake of courts upholding the right of the government to torture, you can bet that some day, you will be objecting to them torturing someone you love for the sake of national security.

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I have seen on TV waterboarding as practiced by the CIA against 3 top terrorists. To me it's closer to fraternity hazing than torture. It doesn't induce physical damage, which is one of the hallmarks of torture. I know of no support for several of the assertions you made above.

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Water boarding doesn't leave outward physical signs - unless the person dies - which does happen. The risk of death from actually drowning or suffering a heart attack, is real. Permanent damage to the lungs is real. Expected common psychological responses to water boarding are panic attacks, depression and PTSD. The "enhanced interrogations" at Guantanamo is so cruel that in 2005 120 of the 350 prisoners attempted suicide. Their attempts weren't because of fanatical beliefs. Their choice to kill themselves was because death was preferable to living in the man made hell we call enhanced interrogations. Your comment that physical damage is a hallmark of torture is as out dated as cutting off fingers and breaking bones to force confessions. A rose by any name. Torture by any name.

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Other leaders follow American custs of respect(like shaking hands) so WHY should our leaders Not show at least as much respect!

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you would rather he disrespect heads of state. in some countries its a sign of respect not submission. Obama has turned our reputation with other countries completely around from george bush who ran with the policy "screw you we'll just just bomb your ***"--------------part 2 you people are pathetic. other countries have different customs. if your on forieign soil, negotiating with heads of state would it not make sense to follow their customs rather than starting off by insulting them by not following their customs. its really a no brainer you get more flies with honey than vinegar

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I think it's ironic that you imply with your statement here that if Obama didn't bow, he would be disrespecting "heads of state". Using that logic, exactly what you think it implied when those heads of state blatantly did NOT bow to Obama? News flash.. he did America absolutely no favors.

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he is commander in chief, diplomat in chief and bowing is in no way an act of submission

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"Obama has turned our reputation with other countries completely around " I think that's naive. anti-Americanism in the Middle East has continued to increase. And I don't see anti-Americanism elsewhere diminishing.

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what im inferring, actually stating is that by bowing he is merely following that countries customs

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"Using that logic, exactly what you think it implied when those heads of state blatantly did NOT bow to Obama?" Excellent point, Intelligently.

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our president follows protocol and does not bow first

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It's called being polite to people whose culture doesn't involved the handshake. Nothing more than showing he has manners and respect.

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americans only,.................. what are you a racist.......................you clown

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lol !

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Bozo, America is not a race. And non-Americans are not entitled to a vote in America's elections. The subject matter of this question is none of their business.

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A question about the foreign policy of one of the most powerful countries in the world isn't the business of foreigners? I respectfully disagree.

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I'm not an american but I feel you should read up on real politik and your country should get it's head out of it's *** and realise that you are fast becoming a joke with your us and israel against the world bollox.

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Where does the EU stand on Hamas? (I know; I'm just asking you.)

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if your not american then no one cares about you opinion

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America is a country founded on genocide of its native inhabitants, it was developed by the hands of slave labor, it imprisoned Japanese citizens, shot students at Kent state, invaded Iraq, toppled governments in south America that were democratically elected, imprisoned foreign citizens without charging them, slaughtered civilians in Viet Nam and Korea.....and your pissed off at an act of respect, sheesh

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America is not founded on genocide; that is a lie. The Indians were not exterminated. If their extermination had even been intended they would be gone from the scene. Slave labor was only important in the South. No south american government was ever toppled by the US. Yhe famous Church Committee found that the CIA was not involved in the coup against Allende, contrary to leftist legend. Atrocities happen in every war, but most of the slaughtering of South Vietnamese civilians was done by the VietCong.

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your an idiot who does not do his research. our government sent blankets infected with small pox to native americans a disease so horrible that your skin falls off
what about sandanistas in nicaragua
Atrocities are committed on both sides but does that make it right
as for slave labor how about the chinese that built our railroads
get your **** together before spouting crap

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Bowing is a form of groveling, it is done to acknowledge anothers Superior social status, the President of the USA should not bow to anyone.

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Posted by Atri Feb 14th, 2012 at 1:19PM
I think Obama has done this many more times than three. I can think of five right off the top of my head. I find it deplorable, unsophisticated in diplomacy. The leader of the US should not bow to anyone! Other than the Japanese this is a sign of weakness and subservience, to my knowledge. I could understand bowing second and equally as low to the Japanese Emporer, but not their prime minister. Only because of their custom of bowing instead of shaking hands, yet they do shake hands with other now day.
I think this is Obama's be;lief that America is evil and should be apologetic to these despots he bows down to. I also think he is showing that he shows a special respect for these medieval and lesser powerful countries. It is bad diplomacy and niavete on his part. He makes us look weak. As I said I think it is deplorable!
I am surprised at the lack of diplomatic knowledge expressed here by those who think Obama's bowing and scraping in front of other countries leaders is a good thing. I guarantee if it were Bush who did this and Obama who shook hands you would be screaming about Bush being weak and wrong for doing it. Why can't you left leaning folks have some consistency? Rating (6)

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Reply by maple10 Feb 14th, 2012 at 1:20PM
Atri You are 100% correct.

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Reply by forlorn3 Feb 14th, 2012 at 1:21PM
Note the videos on the Washington Post blog in my answer and see if those qualify as "bows," or false claims of such by his political opponents who would say anything to make him look bad.

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Reply by hubby2005us Feb 14th, 2012 at 1:26PM
Check out: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/04/obama_bows_down_to_saudi_king.html

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Reply by maple10 Feb 14th, 2012 at 1:27PM
You don't have to make false claims to make him look bad he does a stellar job of that all on his own.

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Reply by Atri Feb 14th, 2012 at 1:41PM
So true, Maple10! :) He does a great job looking foolish all by himself. :)

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Reply by s3r1al Feb 14th, 2012 at 2:35PM
nothing to say. you will take anyhting told to you that doesnt flow with your perspective as an attack. tbh, i dont like obama but is this really an issue? maybe you need to learn about bows. before talking about them. sorry hun.

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Reply by Atri Feb 14th, 2012 at 2:52PM
Maybe you have me mixed up with some liberal. I am tolerant of all peoples opinions, I just speak out when they are incorrect and I think it is you who need to contact the State Department and get the handbook on protocol and learn something yourself. I am pointing out facts, not trying to attack anyone. True, I think Obama is the worst thing that ever happened to this country and we will be paying for it (along with liberals) for the rest of lives and our children and grandchildrens lives. But still, this is about his poor diplomatic skills and whayt is the correct protocol and what we think of his ineptness with it.

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Reply by conceptualclarity Feb 14th, 2012 at 4:11PM
Good answer, Atri. I count the Japanese Emperor, King of Saudi Arabia (he really made himself look silly in that one) and a Chniese leader. what are the other cases?

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Reply by olddreams Feb 14th, 2012 at 4:19PM
And Bush walked around his ranch holding a Saudi Prince's hand as if the prince was a princess. So what is your point? Observing diplomatic customs should only be done by Republicans?

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Reply by Atri Feb 14th, 2012 at 4:23PM
Amazing Olddreams that you respect a Nobel Prize given to a man for doing NOTHING!. They said he had "potential." Yeah some peaceful guy. Egypt, Libya, no maybe Syria. Name one war crime commited by Bush or his administration. You are so niave and silly sounding to say there were no WMD's in Irag when Saddam used them on his own people! True he moved them to Syria (also a Baath Party regime) by the time we got in there, but we found the detrious, plans, centrifuges,cannisters for the materials to make chemical weapons as well as cache's of weapons with reidue from chemical weapons and residue for nuclear materials. Good grief! I can't believe the ignorance andrefusal to look at the real facts when they have been in front of you for 10 years.

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Reply by Atri Feb 14th, 2012 at 4:32PM
Oh Yes, I forgot he let the Dali Lama in and out through the back door through the kitchen and beside the garbage. He was rude to both the Dali Lama and Netanyahu and bows to despots like the Saudi King, The Communist Chinese Leader, the UN Secretary General, the Japanese Prime Minister, and Hugo Chavez! He gives the queen of England CD player with all of HIS speeches and it doesn't even work in Europe (stupid and arrogant). He sends back a bust of Winston Churchill given to the US as an honor from the British and saving Europe in WW2 This guy comes from what is admitted to the most corrupt political city in the US, Chicago and before 2000 nobody ever heard of this clown and no one can find a single friend, college transcript, birth certificate, US passport, Harvard law school records or anything on this guy you on the left idolize as a messiah. I see nothing to respect about this man.

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Reply by Atri Feb 14th, 2012 at 4:34PM
Mubarak of Egypt and Hugo Chavez of Venezuela are the other two I remember. I think there are more though I just don't remember right now.

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Reply by conceptualclarity Feb 14th, 2012 at 4:50PM
Bush took plenty of criticism regarding the Saudi king, some of it from the Right.

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Reply by Atri Feb 14th, 2012 at 4:56PM
True and rightfully so, in my opinion, but I do not blame him for everything from club foot to Hiroshima as the liberals do. He was not my favorite President, but he was so much better than this guy we have in there now it isn't even funny.

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Reply by Atri Feb 14th, 2012 at 5:01PM
Oddly enough that was a diplomatic custom with Saudi leaders when talking seriously. I was surprised when I found that out myself, as I did not get it at first.

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Reply by redsilver25 Feb 15th, 2012 at 11:04AM
Or another view possible I have never heard expressed..This was his way of showing HE feels inadaquate for the job title&role, hummm. Good points, I have never heard this one stated. Either we, or he, is a little bit confused?

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See Miss Manners on the protocol. Americans do not bow to foreign monarchs because that act signified the monarch's power over his subjects. <br />
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Here is the protocol from the Queen of England's website -- which applies even to her own subjects:<br />
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"The Queen meets thousands of people each year in the UK and overseas. Before meeting Her Majesty, many people ask how they should behave. The simple answer is that there are no obligatory codes of behaviour - just courtesy.<br />
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However, many people wish to observe the traditional forms of greeting. <br />
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For men this is a neck bow (from the head only) whilst women do a small curtsy. Other people prefer simply to shake hands in the usual way. <br />
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On presentation to The Queen, the correct formal address is 'Your Majesty' and subsequently 'Ma'am'. "<br />
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ju1XvqoMookC&pg=PA697&lpg=PA697&dq=protocol+bowing+Americans+meeting+foreign+monarch&source=bl&ots=5GygELF-FT&sig=51ybqyGmwHAzO8pil6S6ws0-ikI&hl=en&ei=G9LUSbSmJNbfnQe10eHzDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#v=onepage&q=protocol%20bowing%20Americans%20meeting%20foreign%20monarch&f=false

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I think that the fact that the other leaders are -not- bowing speaks more than Obama's bow does. When someone comes to American soil, they're in our playground and the bows should be coming our way -- not the other way around. But bowing as a sign of respect is perfectly reasonable to me if both parties are doing it. When you have someone taking your bow and just smiling back while visiting -your- country, you're practically begging to viewed as weak, impotent, and disrespectful of your own country.

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Thanks for a good answer. I've missed you on EP, Intelligently. Of course, I know neither you nor I necessarily has any duty to be on EP. Please see my latest question.

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more idiocy, protocol dictates that the host countries head of state bow first. then our president would do so in kind. our president would never be the first

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That's ironic, and very interesting, then.. because when Obama goes overseas, he doesn't get bowed to there, either.

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Good point, Intelligently.

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thats the trouble, you dont think

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Haha. So you have no useful information to provide to this debate but you can insult people you don't know simply because their opinion (and the facts) differ from you own. Sorry, that isn't impressive.

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aparently its a sign of respect. and a good one although i hope he did it right. its all about the eye contact

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It is disloyal and disrespectful to America - this is your president, folks! Sure glad I had the good judgement not to vote for him in 2008. I'll be voting for Romney this year - a real man who loves American and it's citizens!

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It's a sign of respect to a lot of people and cultures. You don't want to disrespect someone by disregarding their culture. It would be like someone we first meet not shaking our hands since in our culture that is what's taught to us from a young age what to do. President Kennedy got a lot of negitive press for kissing the Popes ring back in the 60's but since he was catholic that's what you did when meeting the Pope. I think it shouldn't be over analyzed.

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Seriously? Seriously? This is what you ask? Seriously?

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Bowing is an act of submission. No head of state should bow to another.

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I think our government has done far more embarrassing things on the world stage.

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Only someone terminally stupid or blindly partisan ignore all the times George Bu**sh** bowed.<br />
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You can't be a jerkoff if you're not a yank.

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I do not particularly like it. Let them cope with our tradition of shaking hands.<br />
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But I suppose it is less embarrassing than throwing up on them (if you recall Bush Senior barfing in Japan).<br />
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Of course, while he is bowing to them, they may still be wondering if he has an attack drone with their name on it.

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Like most other people, I was thinking it was about respect, and therefore a good thing that should be done, part of at least an effort to mend our relations with the other countries.

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only in America...

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