None. Neither 'men' nor 'women'. Instead its a greater force. The media. Women are being brainwashed into believing you must look like a sl*t, and men are forced into believing that's what's hot. That's what they should be attracted to.
No worries :)
SO true. I take a slightly different approach, but this is RIGHT on.
Is it possible that both are at fault?
I think both are equally in control. Women with what they wear and men with what they say.
But sometimes it doesn't matter what a woman wears; a man is going to stare.
Well no because the thing is... women don't actually for the most part realise how much men perv! In my 20s I wore low cut tops, skirts an always stockings and heels.. but I never ever once wore them because I thought men found them hot.. I never wore them because I found them hot.. I wore them because I thought they suited me... I never once looked to see if men were looking and admiring.. Some women might look and enjoy men admiring but I promise you most women don't wear low cut tops for men.. they dnt even THINK about it... its about wearing what you feel suits you or is in keeping with your workmates.. friends etc.. a young hot girl might wear a short dress cos there is this cute guy she hopes wil fancy her ... but she doesn't hve a clue that a dozen other men are going to hve their eyes falling out on stalks staring ..she wont even notice...Women mostly ont realise how men perv! She is as likely to dress to impress her friends or to be fashionable.. its not about men.. and so in answer sorry its still men objectifying..
Women want to be hot and admired, and men want to admire hot women, so we both play a part. However, I think there is a little more of a part on the woman's side, because men don't understand the feminine psyche, but females do: women love to be looked at but are also naturally discreet (which is what really makes a woman absolutely lovely); men love to look at women, but we don't respect a woman's right to be discreet. This is where the woman has to be the one to say, "I'm not going to be ob<x>jectified", because men ob<x>jectify women as 'open, non-discreet' which is how men want women to be but which women really aren't. When women allow themselves to be ob<x>jectified as what they aren't, they encourage men to treat them like ob<x>jects and sex toys and to also see every other woman the same way (which is why a guy thinks he can stare at boobs or grab a butt or two just because it's there to see or touch). The signs are all mixed up when women say more "yes" than "no".
I think you are right, but I put the impetus on the media as "Petiterebel" above says.
The objective of women is to attract men as fathers for their children. The medias feed off this as a marketing tool for their advertisers (firms who offer money for magazine/TV/computer sidebar space). If you look at past generations, the women who "stayed home to care for her parents" didn't overcome their desire to sell their attractiveness or other worthy traits.
A man must give the signal that he has noticed a woman before she has a chance to do her part: lead him to support and protect her. Thus, women must flirt.
In choosing a mate, women are attracted to the genes of handsome men first. Strong men and athletes come second to the handsome ones; then come the wealthy men and the powerful men. Talented men - authors, painters, etc. also stand a very good chance of 'hooking-up' with attractive women. Intelligent men come in there too, but intelligence in a man often comes in self-absorbed package labelled "duty" and so is not so attractive as the woman will have to share him with his 'calling'. Thus is my rating on the hierarchy of women's selection for mating.
Men of course are attracted to pretty women (not the same as beautiful) for the same reason: their children are likely to be be pretty/handsome. But men are also pragmatic: they want to be cared for and a pretty face is not necessarily a supportive mate. Beauty in a woman is her ability to please a man's other senses such as being a conversationalist, an artist, musician, a cook, a teacher (good mother), etc. ie., making him comfortable in his life.
Sure, a man will grasp at an available woman: Just ask any guy who hears the 'last call' in a pick-up bar. But I don't think men objectify women more than women objectify men..... it's just that women get the "final decision" - and that final decision is what you DaSSRedemption, call being "discreet."
Closing note: If any of you guys out there think you 'picked' your wife, then you obviously haven't thought too much about how that dating process transpired: You offered, she looked all around, weighed your attributes against all the other available men and DECIDED that she had no better options. You truly did "WIN" her, but not in the way you think. AND, YES: Her letting you 'pick' her ensured her that you would stay with her while she raised her young; and that she would stay with you so long as her young need your support. We call that mutuality "Love."
I don't understand all you said but I get the gist of it. Unless there's a perfect mutuality, the woman is the one who really chooses. T.I. said, "The cliques start dancing and the broads start choosing, and the car's been parked but the rims they keep moving." On the surface, it seems like it's the guy who chooses, but I've tried to tell so many guys that the girl is the one who really chooses (and he rarely ever is her real first choice; let's face it). Thanks for the stats; I'm going to read that again. I'm happier than most guys, I think, because I don't play by the rules and go around performing and waiting for girls to choose me. I just do or I don't do; whoever likes it likes it, and whoever doesn't doesn't. The final choosing will be mutual without any games involved, otherwise, I will always be the one choosing. Believe that.
Wisdom comes earlier to some people than to others! You'll win!
Often times guys back out of the relationship early (abandonment and/or divorce) because they feel they have been trapped but just realized it too late (after they got their wife pregnant).
I've been married 38 years - got a good mate (everyone has problems!). Yes, she chose me, but like you.... I looked over the herd (black book) and cut out my filly after she made her move on me, not before - so ours was mutual too.
It's good to hear about good relationships. I know everyone naturally wants stability, so you have to plan ahead if you're going to get it. I asked a cousin once if it was better to learn things through wisdom (i.e. know ahead of time and make wise decisions) or experience. Like most people, he said experience. They say, "Experience is the best teacher", but that's another one of those stupid cliches that just happened to catch on. Making mistakes is a good way to learn, but avoiding them by making wise decisions is an even better way to learn. I already know that people are naturally self-centered, but I happen to be attracted to women who aren't that. That cuts down my choices BIG time and makes choosing wisely much easier.