I have no doubt that god(s) were involved in a creation the question is who created who.<br />
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Creationism seems to be supported by a fanatical religious faction that think so highly of them selves that they can't imagine that they are related to all the other animals on the earth. That they are wrong is an idea they in their arrogance cant fathom.<br />
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Evolution was arrived at by examining all the evidence and formulating an idea that most closely fits and explains the evidence.

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Everything is finitely improbable, you just have to figure out how improbable it is.

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Dover v Kitzmiller ruled that ID is not science. I think that basically sums things up.<br />
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In fact I don't really think there is really such thing as creationism per se, it's just anti-evolutionism. There's nothing in creationism which really stands on any evidence; it's not like there can be evidence of animals popping into existance ex nihilo so the best they can do is say "Well evolution is flawed" as if disproving evolution proves creation.<br />
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The best argument they ever had for this was irreducible complexity. The problem with irreducible complexity is that every example of what creationists call an irreducibly complex system has a mass of scientific literature explaining it's evolution.<br />
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At the Dover v Kitzmiller trial Michael Behe contended that there was no scientific explanation for the immune system at which point the lawyer dumped fifty journal articles and books all relating to the evolution of the immune system and Behe said something along the lines of "I'm sure they're all excellent but they don't address my point". <br />
He was then asked if he'd read any of them and he admitted he hadn't, but he had done a search on google and so he knew that there was nothing in the literature that explained the evolution of the immune system. The other big thing was bacterial flagellum but Dr Kenneth Miller destroyed that argument totally. <br />
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This is the best that creationism gets, anyone who happens to be literate, curious and intellectually honest knows that creationist arguments are laughable. In fact anything that requires faith is by definition unreasonable.

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Courts of law do not define truth, they merely make a ruling based on all sorts of considerations. NB court decisions can be overturned.

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You're not familiar with the dover v kitzmiller case are you?

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And science does determine truth and creationism ceased to be science 150 years ago.

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Yes, I am familiar with Dover vs Kitzmiller. And contrary to your assertion, the scientific explanations for creationism are happening all the time. It is quite the NEW science after the stranglehold evolution has had on the curriculum for the pat 150 years.

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I know you would just love to think that anyone with a radically different opinion to yourself is simply illiterate (by your definition) but I most definitely am not illiterate.

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It's not an assertion, check the scientific literature. Unless you've got some citations...............

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The biggest problem with creationism is that they took an idea ( that a god created everything) then went about cherry picking evidence that they think supports the idea. - - Evolution was arrived at by examining all the evidence and formulating an idea that most closely fits and explains the evidence.

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Yes the irreducible complexity argument is inherantly flawed. What people really mean when they say that something is so complex that it MUST have been created is this: "I don't personally understand how it works therefore the only reasonable explanation is magic". That is just ignorance and self-delusion.

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God did not create man but man did create God.

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Well put, I couldnt agree more, the majority of the weak came up with the idea to protect themselves from the minority who ruled, in time those Rulers jumped on board and took over the "religion" its happened with so many religions

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I think if its possible to disprove the idea of creationism it will happen. For some reason the whole idea can actually anger some people. Its interesting.

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Unfortunately many people who believe creationism believe it is irrefutable fact and try to enforce its education as such Its become synonymous with bigotry intolerance and ignorance.

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It has been disproved. We know that life did not spring into existance fully formed. We have a fossil record demonstrating increasingly complex life from bacteria to present animals and genetics to back that up. So the idea that all animals popped into existance from nothing at some point has been disproven.

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I said no such thing. Its obvious you have your own"irrefutable" opinions

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What made you think i was accusing you oO just explaining why i think people get angry over the topic.

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lol yes we do have such a fossii record, but none of it is of stages of development showing evolution; the vast majority of it is of species we recognise and a small remainder is of species now extinct.

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Oh stop lying. We have a complete fossil record of our own species from us to the first mammals and from the first mammals down to fish and you know it.

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Where can we find your reference source for this information?

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It depends what is meant by "intelligent design" or "creationism".<br />
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Obviously, if we are talking in terms of full on young earth, world created in 7 days creationism - then we are in the same territory as Scientology in terms of insanity.<br />
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The problem with "intelligent design" is it is very difficult to define "intelligent" & if you cannot define "intelligent" then you are stuck before you start.<br />
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There is not necessarily a contradiction between intelligent design and evolution/natural selection anyway. It seems to me perfectly possible for someone to believe that god created the world and decided to use natural selection as a means of regulating life on earth.<br />
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Personally I don't believe in any god or creator force.

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Yes it is reasonable and it has never been disproved except in the minds of those who don't want it to be true. The overlooked fact in creation is the time factor. Time is irrelevant to God. One example is NDE's. People experiencing NDE's often report their whole lives flashing before them in the matter of minutes or even seconds. And no they are not just dreams. There have been cases when the people have been flat-liners and totally brain dead yet were revived to share their story. Undoubtedly though, athiests refuse to believe NDE stories about afterlife, except the former athiests who experienced them.

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Both are reasonable............however people tend to be unreasonable when talking about such things.

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Neither creationism nor evolution make total sense; however there is room for compromise that does make sense.<br />
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If energy is self-aware, and that energy transformed itself into/as matter, then both evolution and creationism are lacking to a great degree. With this blend, that is more like Panentheism, an aspect of the whole conceives of an idea of a more evolved species, and then sets out to create itself as that creature. (Which came first - the chicken or the egg? Neither. The idea came first) It is wholly compatible with quantum physics and recent discoveries in the unified field. It does not oppose any laws of thermodynamics or any other physical law that I am aware of. It takes the terror out of the god-concept.

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Well, it stands to reason that a complex design has an intelligent designer. The idea of a motor vehicle being able to design and create itself moving in stages from its ba<x>se elements to detailed parts, somehow knowing how to assemble itself, is ludicrous. And yet a single cell, with its DNA, is vastly more complex than a motor vehicle.<br />
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Oh sure, we cannot put that moment of first Creation under a microscope and prove that it happened a particular way, we just have to make sense of the world we see around us. And intelligent design makes perfect sense.

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No it doesn't. Not in a universe where we repeatedly observe simple systems producing complex ones. The laws of chemistry are simple, but they produce massive complexity. The laws of physics are simple, but they produce massive complexity and all of life can be explained using only these simple laws.

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And who created these laws?

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Er, Yes

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Doesnt have evidence or make any logical sense and defies the laws of physics. Why do you think its reasonable?

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OK you've convinced me with your agument,it's totally and absolutely unreasonable, wouldnt it be great if every one could be convinced so easily?

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That wasnt even my argument it was just unsupported (but true) assertions

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Whatever

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You know the problem here is ive no idea whether you were being sarcastic in your second comment

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You are a troller

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No, although Im an extremely sarcastic person, dont take it that way with my second comment

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If you mean me then, I must accept my label :(

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People like this are just simple and close minded. Dont let them get to you. They put on the air of tolerance but its a disguise. A disgusting one

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Now I dont know who is talking about who, unfortunately I replied Er, yes to the wrong question ( thats whats happens when you ipad freezes!) i hope I never upset anyone

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No not you..lol not Jj

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Difficult in their obviousness.

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It's a simple answer to a complex issue, actually it's not even an answer, it's a cardboard delusion.

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Whats not even an answer? Also, specifically what is the cardboard delusion to which you elude?

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This conception of life is pure childish fantasy but I know there's no discussing with a believer, so.

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Honestly so long if its kept away from children and that new state funded creationist theme park is torn down i will be happy to let people live with their delusions.

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Haha you made an assumption without basis concerning my beliefs or ideas. If you choose who you discuss things with based on different ideas than your own...im afraid that comes off as arrogant and close minded

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It was a big assumption but given the allusions to spirituality in your username and the image of glowing white people in your avatar it was hardly baseless. Still you are right about pointlessly dismissing opponents

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I've been here long enough to know how people will react, and I was talking in general, your choice to decide you're part of it.

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Hahahahaha First im a recovering alcoholic..thus serenity or the idea is used. second, thats a pic of Yeti off the net. Thought it was funny! Theres a pic of me in my profile though.

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So people are free to believe what they wish as long as it coincides with your idea?

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