well what evidence is there for things we cant even prove.. goes both ways athiestcand god

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....what?

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I don't believe in gods. I think religious people mostly like the idea of order, and they also think if they respect the order described in their books they shall be rewarded. I personally believe any ideal, including justice demands that we face a lot of chaos, disorder, then we , as social beings, can try to create a temporary, imperfect order.

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Most of the religious people I know personally are comfortable with ambiguity, and I'm not sure I know any who are motivated by pie in the sky. They live they way they do because it is right, because they care for others, because injustice should be resisted - the same as you. Of course, I don't tend to hang around fundamentalists. "I personally believe any ideal, including justice demands that we face a lot of chaos, disorder, then we , as social beings, can try to create a temporary, imperfect order." Agree with that 100%.

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There are a number of evidences (which, of course, are not proofs). One is contained within your question - the very notion of justice: "My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I gotten this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such violent reaction against it? A man feels wet when he falls into water, because man is not a water animal: a fish would not feel wet. Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against God collapsed too — for the argument depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my private fancies. Thus in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist — in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless — I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality — namely my idea of justice — was full of sense. Consequently, atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning." CS Lewis. Sorry, i'm supposed to be working so can't follow this up for a while. I love science and philosophy. My belief in god is open for debate, it's just the conclusion I currently hold as I continue to look at evidences both ways.

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Justice is a product of evolutionarily adaptive social behaviour. It's largely subjective and there is no ultimate, objective justice. And what we know of god is not particularly just by our standards. What we know of the world shows little evidence of justice either.

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1. What we know of the world is precisely the puzzle (ie, how can god be just when life isn't) - but the best religions address that puzzle more than adequately in their writings. 2. Your theory of justice is just that - a theory based on a closed set of presuppositions. And whilst the specifics vary, the basic concept of justice and injustice is present in every society. My organisation works in peacebuilding across cultures, and it works, on remarkably the same principles. 3. What YOU know of god is not just by our standards... but I'd suggest that's simply your construct of god. What I know of god (also a construct) is just by our standards. This demonstrates that the notion of god and justice are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

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2) Of course there's a large cultural overlap in what is considered justice. We're all human and all share the same evolution as a social animal.
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3) The idea of god does not exclude justice, but i don't particularly see much justice in what we know of him.
You say that what you know of god makes him just by our standards. Can i ask to what you are referring when you say that?

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I think life is fundamentally marked by ambiguity. (I'm not going to address the buddhist concepts here.) Philosophically, it would be nonsensical if creatures that emerged from an evolutionary process had a higher notion of justice than an infinite being. It's not a difficult concept at its core. My reading of the person of christ and those who followed him points to profound understanding of justice, protection of the weak and innocent (particularly strangers or our enemies - a bit counter-evolutionary), and then moving powerfully beyond justice into the realm of the undeserved good. This is in the context where life itself is random. I accept that notions of justice can be explained through an evolutionary perspective - but CS Lewis (above) did point to an inherent weakness in that idea.

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" it would be nonsensical if creatures that emerged from an evolutionary process had a higher notion of justice than an infinite being"
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But that doesn't really move this discussion along any further. You've just repeated that his justice isn't our justice so how and why can we recognise it as such?
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My reading of chirst shows very human acts of justice and mercy. My reading of the old testament certainly does not. But protecting even strangers and enemies is not counter-evolutionary. It's a product of the evolutionary adaptive traits that make us take care of our own. It's the same mechanism just applied more broadly. It is of course not the norm and that's why you don't see it nearly as much as the other.
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" did point to an inherent weakness in that idea."
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He didn't really. He's making the same kind of argument as moral absolutism. There there must be an ultimate source and standard or else how could we know the difference.
This presupposes that there IS an ultimate standard that exists outside of humanity.

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1. Actually I didn't say 'his justice isn't our justice.' I said the opposite. I said it can't be less than our concept. The basic concept of justice is very simple and can be objectively determined in philosophy. I don't really agree that you've grasped Lewis' point, but that's ok. These boxes are too small for anything than a splash or two of ideas. I appreciate having a decent discussion.
2. You asked for evidence, not proof. Evidences are not proofs. That the evidences presented have alternative explanations doesn't discount them.
3. I think the key thing is - you (possibly an atheistic materialist?) ask someone with a world view where deity exists whether there is evidence that god is just. When you are presented with evidence from that world view you filter any idea out that doesn't precisely fit your own world view. The difference between our positions is largely built on hitherto unprovable presuppositions about and what is possible. (Science/ evolution, we agree on.) Therefore:
4. If god exists, then there possibly IS an ultimate standard that exists outside humanity.
5. If the universe is simply time + chance + matter, then a) Justice within societies is a flawed human construct or a successful evolutionary principle. b) Life itself is not just and our expectations that it should be are an evolutionary aberration that doesn't help our survival. c) The paradox that life is not just is addressed by the major religions (in different ways).

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" I don't really agree that you've grasped Lewis' point,"
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Well then i'd appreciate you describing what you think his point is.
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"That the evidences presented have alternative explanations doesn't discount them"
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Yeah but it sure weakens their use as evidence for the specific claim.
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"When you are presented with evidence from that world view you filter any idea out "
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I disagree. I haven't filtered out anything. I just haven't received much data to filter one way or the other lol.
I've asked for people to provide some evidence they feel shows that god is just and so far all i've got is what the bible says which, let's face it, contains a pretty equivocal standard of justice.
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And sorry, while totally true, i don't understand the relevance of the last two points to the question at hand.

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1. Evidence - which is why atheism is as weak as theism. There is no indisputable evidence for either view. It's the nature of the conversation, both ways.
2. Relevance of last two points: My point 4 - you said 'This presupposes that there IS an ultimate standard that exists outside of humanity.' So I pointed out this is possibly true. It might be true if there is similar life on other planets as well.
3. My point 5 restates CS Lewis' point in different words. A rock or a slug does not demand meaning or justice of the universe or subsequently suffer from angst or existential crisis. That makes a slug more successfully adapted than humans. Unless there is meaning or justice as a principle that exists outside humans. You can disagree, but you haven't refuted it.
4. Evidence exists = A. If god exists and Jesus represented him - his words, and actions are strong evidence that god is just. If you presuppose god doesn't exist, then it is not evidence. But you can't prove that either. It hinges on the presupposition. B. Humans could be living totally like animals and be killed by the most powerful without any existential whimper. We don't. We expect life to be fair, irrationally. This is potentially another evidence that justice is a principle beyond human construction. If god exists, it is further evidence. If you presuppose that this is incorrect, you will not view it as evidence. But you can't prove it is incorrect. The conclusion hinges only on the presupposition.

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you just opened up a horrible can of worms

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probably lol

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gl fam

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I think of "God" as the collection of all that is. We're like mitochondria to him. I don't think he is Just at all. IMO. He's just like us but bigger.
But then again, I'm not Christian. I only believe in continual patterns in the universe. So that probably doesn't answer your question XD

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He gave us free will and then when we disobeyed, He punished us for our sins. He then had Jesus sacrifice Himself so that we could all be saved by faith. We sin but in the end as long as we have faith, we'll be set free in the end. That's how I believe it - the rest is simply the little pictures.

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Yeah...that doesn't even have a little bit to do with the question i asked...

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Seriously? A. Free will. B. Crucifixion. Honestly. The Bible is one part (which is where my information is from). The other part is that Christians/or people that believe in God/nature are supposed to be evidence for God's just actions. Good luck with your searching.

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Well firstly i'd be interested in hearing how you consider killing an innocent man to pay for the crimes of another to be justice.
Secondly i need you to explain how people who believe in god are evidence of god being just.
Go.

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you know people care tomuch about why were living why is this and that. we should care about what life has offeted us and fix the environment instead of fixing if there is a god is there no god. fix whats right now than

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Hush now you hippy.
We're not talking about environmentalism or the reality importance of religious debate

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??????really calling me a hippy. im just saying people necer really talk sbout the environment. iimproving it than thinking if there is a god

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so many things we can do now but we spend pondering about wherther there is one debate about religion.

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The environment is important. But in case this is unclear to you, i'm not on an internet forum in an attempt to solve our environmental problems.
Try to stick to the subject

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well im just saying im not an environmentalist lol ijust noticed that what i hear is mostly about god and religion. Never about whats happening but okay

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Well that's probably because you're looking in the wrong place.

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none. God, as a matter of fact is whatever he wants to be.. just, evil, good, bad, sadistic, chauvinistic.. it's up to him. That's why he's god after all ..

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apparently

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the Bible. I'm on the fence, tbh

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Well that's really the only evidenc ei know of.
God is just because it says so in the bible and the bible is the word of god because the bible says so

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