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VeritableVagabond VeritableVagabond 18-21, M 76 Answers Jul 21, 2012

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Only the evil can explain it. Personally, I loved the preacher who was asked on TV if he believed in Hell; his answer was, "Yes. But I also believe that because God is infinite in his mercy there is no one there."

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hahahahahahahaha! priceless!

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This is my answer too :)

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It is because he doesn't exist and society made him up to control us all.

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I donno...but I am VERY sure it was not some all knowing cosmic zombie who created us in his own image with a foreskin, then asked us to cut it off.

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In a time when there was complete lawlessness, and in order to create a sustainable cooperative community, a God was created by the ruling class (1% ers) as a way to effectively deliver statements of law to the uneducated superstitious masses. "Don't do this, Or burn in Hell" is a lot more effective as a deterrent than, "Don't do this, Pretty Please...."

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well said

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I didn't know the Mayans and Incas believed in hell. What else do you know about them?

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I thought we were discussing Christianity? According to memory, the Mayans and Incans worshiped a Sun God, made ritual animal sacrafices and lived in harmony with nature. I have never heard of them being anything but peaceful but I've not read a lot of information about them. I seem to remember a Corn God for some reason but that may not be Mayan or Incan. Apparently, Christianity is not required to live a full and peaceful life.

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That doesn't make any sense. Who do you think society is? You mean society wants to control us all? How does that work? Control; makes me do certain things?

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Well, regarding peace, we are told in the New Testament, as far as it is possible, to live in peace with all men. We are all instructed to pray for peace. Would you consider that as part of the control feature?
I wasn't sure if you were referring only to the Christian God, or just God in general, and as we know, there are a lot of deities around the world. So, I thought, perhaps your view applied to any culture with any god/God. You did write, "a God." So I just picked those as for instance.
But you do bring up an interesting point about what was their culture/practices. From a PBS site, I took this:
Incan, Mayan, and Mexica priests performed ritual human and animal sacrifices that took place during religious ceremonies, although the Incas and Mayas conducted sacrifices only during times of crisis or on special occasions. These sacrifices were performed to honor the gods, thank the gods for a good harvest, and maintain cosmic order. As the Mexica empire expanded in the second half of the fifteenth century, Mexica priests increasingly conducted human sacrifice to provide life force to Huitzilopochtli, their sun god; they also sacrificed victims to the god of springtime and vegetation, Xipe Totec.
I can't say the way Queen Isabella went about converting people (as they called it) was very well done. There's no question that as the church grew, people stepped in and turned it into a power force, benefitting their own earthly plans. However, there have been some very terrible religious practices which I don't think most people today would wish on themselves or anyone; slitting people's throats and cutting out their hearts, to cutting off people's heads.
I don't know how familiar you are with the history in the Bible, but it seems that Abraham turned away from a polytheistic religion, in difference to the idea that there was only one real God. Musing on control, did you see the movie, The Mosquito Coast with Harrison Ford.

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Yes. You drive on the right hand side of the road, stop at red lights and OBEY the laws of man. This is the framework of the matrix that began with the creation of a supreme being with powers to punish to eternity.

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Didn't see the movie. Not my genre...

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Jehovah does exist. (James 2:19) 19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.

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The short answer is, because of free will.<br />
Here's my imperfect allegory; how I picture this.<br />
Essentially (real to the core) God is Love (this does not mean, Love is God) and God is a Lover. Would you, even a human, really force someone to stay with you, if they did not want to stay with you? Real to the core lovers don't do that.<br />
Granted, the stakes are pretty high, but it does not change this real-to-the-core-lover, God, and he gave to his created beings (the ones a little lower than the angels, but above the other animals) free will, to choose Him, if they would.<br />
(That part always reminds me of Beauty and the Beast; he is asking her everyday, if she will be his, but never forcing her to be his.)<br />
Although we have free will, we are essentially not really good; not in the "Holy Good," kind of good way. We are used to measuring ourselves against ourselves and neighbors, but to measure against the Creator of the universe (and who knows what all) is not at all the same. For another part of this God's essentialness, is that he is incredibly HOLY; if any of us actually met him the way Isaiah did, we would fall down on our faces.<br />
Then we have these other characters who are essentially EVIL. That group, Satan and his horde(s) are driving a train which is eventually going over the edge of a huge cliff. Somehow in this story, ALL of mankind hopped on board! God is not willing that any of us go over the cliff, so he has made a way for us to safely disembark, through trusting in Jesus Christ, but we must make that choice; he does not make it for us.

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Duress is free will? That's pretty twisted and sick.

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Why the fock are you using the word god then? Do you know what you are talking about?

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I've been a bible believing Christian for many years and believe that it is only through the sacrificial blood ofJesus Christ that our sins are paid for. Without the blood of Christ there is no sacrifice for sin. when we stand before God one day in judgement we will either be standing on the foundation of the blood of christ or standing on a pile of our own sins that a loving but righteous and just God must punish. That punishment the bible says is hell and can be interpreted a number of ways. I have little doubt Jesus is the son of God however at this point my definition of hell is basically separation from God forever. Im going to reserve judgment on what hell is in detail, because it is not fully clear. The important thing is to tell people that whether it is a conscious separation or not you dont need to go there. God through Jesus Christ has paid the ultimate price to keep you from hell. How you respond to Jesus Christ will determine your eternal destiny. John 1:12

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He doesn't. Hell isn't like that. The bible says it's hell is sheol. The dirt. We go there, and are just forgotten about. Life just goes on without you =)

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Do you think Jesus was betrayed, abandoned, tortured, and died a tortureous, suffocating death, as a criminal, publicly in front of his mother and closest friends to keep us all from dirt, where we are just forgotten ?

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Thank you, Realityoffear, for the LIKE, lol =)

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Yes, I do. When the earth is reclaimed, would you want to go back to the dirt, and just be forgotten, or be apart of the rebuilding. Dirt, or fire, it's bad all the same. The fire wasn't spoken about as a fact in the bible. It was to be interpreted. If you believe hell is fire after reading every part of the bible that speaks about what hell actually is, then... that's your choise =)

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Thank you, Kurenaitsubasa. That was insightful. I stand firm on my position. It's what I understood from all that I've read. You take care =)

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@crosscubes, Enemies of the status quo pecking order are routinely betrayed, abandoned, and tortured to death by authoritarians. Don't you watch the news anymore?

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Because people have the free will to believe whatever they choose to believe. Some people believe that they deserve to go to hell and whatever a person truly believes is the material from which their futures are woven. We have the power to change what we believe whenever we choose to. Changes occur like streams become rivers and the path is forged along the path most chosen.

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You have free will to paint you room any colour you want, but if you dont paint it orange, I will dispose of all your belongings and torture you to death in my basement... but I love you 0.o

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sorry, That's not free will. Free will doesn't have conditions.

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Love this!

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We need to stop with the idea of people being tortured in hell. Personally, I have never believed that and and I never will. I am a former minister and I believe the church must grow up or become irrelevant. It's a lot easier to blab on ad nauseum about hell, lakes of fire, fear, and eternal torture, than it is to go out into the world and show the true good news by actions. Words are so cheap... Actions matter.

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There is no eternal torture. Don't be afraid.

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Its bull ****!<br />
you can't condemn someone you love to everlasting torture.<br />
it is a poor pathetic myth and if you knew history every part of the Christ story was taken from myths from other cultures<br />
virgin birth,miracles,Noah's flood,crucifixion, raising from the dead after 3 days, the 3 wise men, the Christmas star... etc .<br />
all were taken from other religious myths mostly Greek and Roman.

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It's just so odd that the disciples were willing to be tortured and killed for what they believed, and not only that, so passionate about persuading others to believe what they believed, knowing that those who joined in this belief also faced the possibility of torture and death. Some were eaten by lions. Can you imagine anything that you would not be willing to recant, even if it meant being killed by a lion? I don't know if I could do that. Regarding condemning someone you love to everlasting torture, however, that is not quite what the Bible says, and I'm assuming you are basing that statement on what you think the Bible says? It actually says that hell was created for Satan and his angels (angels, strictly meaning messengers). God did not make hell for human beings. Here's the problem, as the Bible presents it: A group of spiritual beings, angels were led away from serving God by one Lucifer, who said to himself, "I will be like God." Those spiritual beings are at war with God, the Creator of all things, and intent on keeping human beings away from God. God, created human beings to have fellowship with Him, and He is not willing that ANY should perish. However, God gave humans free will; we can choose whom we worship, whether we enthrone God, or the devil, or our own mind. God is not forcing us to worship Him. However, the nature of the reality is that we have a spirit, a soul and a body. After death, we will be somewhere. If we do not wish to be with God, the only other place, separation from God, will be in hell with Satan and his angels. Whether true or not, the person, Jesus, in the New Testament (whom some believe to be God, some believe to be a good teacher) makes it very clear that hell is not a pleasant place to be. As to how some of the stories came to be similar to those in other cultures, I have a different view than yours, probably, but I am not familiar with any God like the one in the Bible, who is looking for those who will worship him in spirit and in truth. A God who seeks those who are, "lost," and talks about us as sheep in need of a good shepherd, who will truly care for us. The God in the Bible is a God who turned himself into the perfect, without sin, sacrifice, to pay a price that a great creator God could exact from us, because His nature was without any fault, or anything wrong in anyway, but ours was with a great deal of fault. So the Shepherd is the Hunter, seeking us; the great, and Holy God, the Lion is the Lamb, the perfect sacrifice. What Greek or Roman, or pagan God is like that?

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There is a slight misconception here, souls are not punished eternally in hell. Hell is only temporary, however, at the Great White Throne Judgment Christ will take Death, Hell, and all those who were in Hell and cast them into the Lake of Fire for their eternal punishment.<br />
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But as for your question, why would God allow it? The answer is because God has given us free will and wants us to turn to him through Christ because we want to. Those who reject Christ follow the devil and therefore choose to go where God is sending him and the angels that rebelled with him, which is the Lake of Fire.

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Actually, God doesn't force people to suffer. That's a bunch of garbage so you should check your own stench before you complain about the way you think someone else smells. God doesn't send people to Hell, they CHOOSE to go there. Big difference. They either choose Christ or they choose the devil and God will allow you to go where you decide to go, and the only two places are to Heaven with Christ or to Hell which will be cast into the Lake Fire along with the devil.

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Christians think that people with a gun held to their heads can exercise free will? Wow, that explains a lot about Christians and their fetishization of force and abuse, and even more about their false martyr complex.

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Actually, they can, and they choose the option that they hope won't prompt the guy with the gun to pull the trigger. They have the option to resist, so they can choose that. There are always at least 2 options, we just don't like the bad one so we say we had no choice, when in fact we did.

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He doesn't. (I'm answering this according to popular doctrine. I don't believe there is a place that is Hell, but I do believe in God). God gives each person a choice; to believe in Him and accept salvation, or to refuse. Because God is perfectly good, He<br />
can't relate to evil, or sin. When we accept Him, we then become connected, even sinless because Jesus' death paid for our sins. Those who don't accept Him,<br />
by default are still sinners, and therefore God can't relate to them and remain separated. <br />
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So if someone's soul ends up in hell, it's because they don't believe - didn't choose to believe.<br />
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Like I said, I believe in God. However, religion is human made. There are many things I've been taught, or read in the Bible that don't make sense to me. I don't blame God for that. There's been thousands of years of human interference to screw things up. Even the books that are in the Bible are chosen by humans, some books, like Thomas were voted out. The 3 languages the Bible was written in originally (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek) have been altered, translated and retranslated over centuries. Humans have really messed up God's message.<br />
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It takes a little work to find the truth, and sometimes I think that was God's intention all along. Seeking truth and looking for God are common themes in the Bible. I think He wants us to search for Him. After all, that is part of the making a choice..... following through with it whether it's choosing to start an exercise program, or choosing a belief; we then have work to do.

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It wouldn't. Thus the Christian God is a lie.

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It's like a type of cleansing! God is all Love! He wouldn't do that ! Man assumes that!

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I'll try to explain it in the way that I was made to understand. I'm not quite qualified, unfortunately, but here goes. The devil chose to go against God, and so he was cast down into his own place, Hell- keep in mind, the devil CHOSE to disobey. All evil is the devil's work, the devil's nature. Man has a choice to either fall for or deny evil- it's called free will. We also have the free will to do good deeds and to be near God. So really, we are the ones who choose our fates, we can doom ourselves by being selfish and evil and unloving towards others and by turning away from God forever. <br />
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God does NOT want everyone to go to Hell. He loves all of us very much and even sent a part of Him (His only Son) to give us an easier shot at heaven, but like a parent cannot control their children like puppets, we as God's children must ultimately make our own decisions on our fate.<br />
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I'm not one of those Christians who says the this person or that person is going to hell. The thing is, only God knows what is in our hearts, so only He knows when we are sorry for our sins and not doing them to be and spread evil. And we all fall short of the glory of the one who beautifully and wonderfully made us. That's why Jesus came down, because our sins have a chance of being forgiven if we are truly sorry for them. So we have a very simple way to come to God- through His Son, who also loves us dearly. <br />
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I'd be happy to try to answer anything else pertaining to this the best I can, but again, I'm no expert! Peace!

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I liken it to a parent who warns there child of a timeout if they dont listen. What good is a warning of time out if the childs actions go unpunished? Dont attack me I'm just giving a little perspective, in case some one gets butt hurt.

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For its first 500 years, Christians believed in reincarnation. But they had trouble keeping people obedient if "sinners" would just have another life to do it over. So they invented the "HELL" story out of Norse religion. Hell is the Norse Goddess of the underworld who sends Valkyries to retrieve souls of fallen warriors. Christians twisted the names and invented eternal punishment for "sinners." There is no logical reason about why God would allow it.

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If you are too stupid to still believe in god that way then you are beyond help anyway, are you not?<br />
Give it say an other century and all religions shall have been wiped out following a whole series of legal cases in which many people raised in religions take legal action for psychological abuse - just watch the next decade!

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do you believe a god exists?

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Am astounded by your blend of arrogance and ignorance - as it appears - the ignorance simply because you havent defined what "a god" is anywhere - so every single point made by anyone is void and pointless. Am assuming you haven't done many college debates? Or read philosophy?
On the other hand the question itself seems a bit arrogant - as though you know where as other people have beliefs. Is that not right?
If you can define "a god" I'll tell you if they exist.
I'll say this for your simple thought - only something evil can and does interact with our level of reality - hence people worshiping anything are by definition satanists and are in for a surprise when they die. Ironically since we are good too - we cant interfere just like good from other realities.
By "a god" if you mean any historical character who becomes deified then yes - they did exist - study anthropology and you know tribes turn legendary ancestors into gods (in all cultures) over generations when stories are told - you are just lost for what you or anyone means by god -
what you probably mean is that legendary ancestors - through the exaggeration of stories - become mythologized and deified meaning they take on supernatural powers when they had none -
now that I have done your work for you and defined the origin and meaning of "god" (I hope you wrote down you own version before getting this far to compare) you can tell me if any god exists.
Also you should read Laird Scranton for a start.

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Whoa whoa...i'm not here to debate anything.

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For the same reason we enjoy heaven, for the same reason masons exist.

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I am Catholic, and what I can tell you is that... without hell there will be not heaven, if you know what I mean... we are either saved or unsaved, bound for hell or heaven without sin, there can be no hell, without hell, there can be no heaven so... neither can there be anything to be saved from! Finally, without Salvation, there is no need for a God so the church will not exist without hell! and maybe with this I just write here will be hard to believe that I believe in God, but I do it!

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I thought Catholics had a thrid option, Purgatory or whatever.

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It changes!
Thats the great thing with having one head of a church - you can make the rules up as you play - but they always have the hot line to god honest.
Here is one good clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd92qy2ZmV0

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I think people forget that there is Satan as well. No one truly thanks God for the good things in their life they simply curse him when bad things occur. I blame the devil. Always. Whenever something bad happens I curse Satan. He is a god as well and just as powerful as God. <br />
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This is directed to the people who believe in God.

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Are you sure there isnt just Satan then?
Because what you just said was - things that actually happen - well thats Satan - whereas - ....nothing. Thats god!
What you mean is what you call god is satan - you are too stupid to have worked it out yet right?
You cant invent an opposite and "equal"? [or more powerful] power - that does 4k all! That is pathetic.
So there is neither or at worst just evil - so which do you prefer - because your god is either
a) demonstrably evil
b) does 4k all
c) doesnt exist
when are you going to grow up?

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Another highly uneducated man on EP?
Hakuna Matata.
What you believe has nothing to do with what I believe. If you were trying to start an arguement based on religion you've tried to initiate it with the wrong person.
Please try to sound somewhat educated the next time you try and bash someone. I honestly have no idea what the hell you were trying to say. I'm also quite sute you don't either.

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