Beauty and Truth

I do believe, beauty in the eye of the beholder doesn’t make it any less beautiful. Every day I see things that reminds me of the universes complex beauty and I am grateful for the consciousness that allows me to see this. Truth is just as subjective as beauty, But most people have the right idea. Honesty and truth are values I hold very high. Even being honest with yourself can be a challenge sometimes, but its worth it.
smebro smebro
22-25, M
19 Responses May 9, 2007

I was joking in a frustrated manner when I commented regarding different cultures. I have met enough people from all over the world to know that we are all basically the same. <br />
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Very witty Dodo and I appreciate your input.<br />
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I was looking through smebro's history of stories, and this one caught my interest. that is why I commented

Did it? I didn't notice. I thought it turned into a battle of what is true and what isn't. You'll notice Abb brought up God as a discussion point regarding truth. <br />
I’m sorry you no longer like the story, which is a pity...it had been as is for months before Abb was compelled to comment with the disagreement. Perhaps you should ask why abb chose to comment in the first place.

Yeah I'm just a little confused how a really nice story....<br />
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Sembro...I really did like it....<br />
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turned into a battle of the Gods?

<b>S</b>mebro <b>P</b>rofesses <b>A</b>bsolute <b>R</b>espect <b>T</b>owards <b>A</b>bb8279??<br />
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:D<br />
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I am disappointed to hear that you feel this is a battle, abb8729! Most certainly it is a meeting of differing viewpoints, but I know that both smebro and myself will change our opinions if presented with a sufficiently compelling and holistically compelling case.<br />
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Plus, sometimes the main benefit of engaging internal, in that it better refines one's ability to express your own ideas. :)

GOWLLEE....<br />
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thought your story was great!!!!!....then....<br />
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for a minute there thought i was in another story of yours...<br />
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{{bows and exits}}}

Battle? <br />
I am SPARTA

Abb you miss the point entirely, you can be right AND I can be right. It's perspective that counts. <br />
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I doubt the culture is any different at all, I live with a Manhattan Local and have learnt a great deal about America through his observations of the divisions in your own country, the different mindsets from state to state. This is partially why I find America so fascinating.<br />
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The English Speaking Western world is largely indistinguishable from landmass to landmass, the cultural differences are tiny. Not entirely different at all, basically the same.

I read that Dodo is from Australia. The two of you are neighbors. There must be an entirely different culture and mentality over there.

Smebro - just want to let you know that I seriously considered commenting on that part....but to what end? This discussion is a battle and I don't want to fight it anymore.

I think it's wonderful that we are capable of drawing so many truths from reality, and for me the fun comes from picking and choosing favorites. I could never set my mind to a theory, unless it is totally bound in my experience, and as you point out Tardy; my experience is subjective and does not include the finer aspects of Quantum Mechanics. <br />
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The reality in our minds is often given the most sway, but science is proving that reality is unintuitive, we have evolved to readily accept certain 'truths' about our reality which do not always hold up on other levels. <br />
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As you have said before Tardy, we are Human before we are philosophers, and as such we must keep in mind that what we see before us is not the entirety of truth. 2+2=4 on paper and in commerce, but not in other areas we might apply the same 'truth' to. We have a limited experience of what is before us, where a dolphin or snake sees a complex integration of sight and alternate senses, we see only what is needed for us to exist at our level. Infra-red and sonar are physical truths to many creatures, but mean very little to those of us that don't use these things in our everyday lives. <br />
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Luckily, we have science and technology to inform and augment our experience. <br />
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When it comes to relations with mankind, the same applies. Some people life in a completely different fr<x>ame of reference, and so will not respond well to our alternate version of things. This is something everyone comes across every day, I used to think 'Well, I'm right and you're wrong but I'll never be able to convince you' but now I think 'lets share and compare'. <br />
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And everything we've covered here leaves the floor open for anyone to go on believing that there is only one set of universal truths...because it's true for them and no-one can outright take that truth.

I've never seen a convincing philosophical proof that there is any underlying ob<x>jective reality. It's just far more convenient to assume that there is one; assuming no ob<x>jective reality just makes for insanity (not proof of ob<x>jective reality by the way, unless you are in fifth grade :P).<br />
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To make a radical (philosophical) assumption and say that there is some sort of fundamental underlying reality, it would be highly fallacious to assume that the human experience of reality has any real bearing on the true nature of things.<br />
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Consider what reality is like at the quantum level.<br />
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Or what reality is like at the ultra-macroscopic level of blackholes, supernovas and galactic motion.<br />
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Or how different the laws of physics appear at the beginning of the universe.<br />
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As a side note, some trivial incidents where 2 + 2 =/= 4.<br />
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Vector mathematics. 2 + 2 = anything between 0 and 4<br />
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Antimatter + matter collisions. 2 matter particles + 2 antimatter particles = (well that really depends on the particles and energies in question)<br />
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Complex numbers. 2 + 2i = 2+2i (never 4)<br />
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Quantum physics (transitory particle pairs) 2 + 2 = nothing, there was never anything there to begin with<br />
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Chemistry. 2 + 2 = 1 (for combining reactions)<br />
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Irreverent moral discussion 2 wrongs + 2 rights = 3 rights ;)<br />
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(These are largely for fun, and meant to be trivial, in technical terms. But they raise the point about conventions of truth and the relationship between everyday experience and its non-pertinence to reality on other scales.)

I asked what you would do if someone came and suggested we were wrong about 2+2=4...not if we agree.<br />
My point, which you have elegantly avoided, was that I would query said hypothetical person as to their theory, where as you might outright dismiss it as nonsense that didn't fit your view of reality.<br />
And in the end, neither of us would be right or wrong, because truth is subjective, you have the right to believe a one-note universe, and I have the right to claim truth is subjective. <br />
We all win, only I really win, because my truth is different...and therefore subjective to my experience.<br />
I'm being silly now, but my point remains.

Good then we agree, things are as they are.

Not necessarily a fool Abb, that kind of thinking will not get you anywhere. All it takes is someone raised in a much different way to you, and If they don't believe two + two equals four, then it is not true to them. They might be a genius, but they have an alternate way of looking at it (Perhaps we are being too specific when we call an ob<x>ject '1', considering the number of atoms that make up that ob<x>ject ) <br />
We are the ones saying 2+2=4, not reality. <br />
I see your point Abb, things are as they are, no two ways about it. But when you take into account perspective and back-ground things get cloudy. Who decides what is the most right? No-one. You know things that I don’t, and I know things that you don’t… such is the way of things. I have truths you do not, and you have some I do not also. <br />
I’m sure we can come together and agree that 2+2=4 in mathematics…but what if someone else came along with an elegant explanation as to why you and I could be wrong. What would you do then?

I just want to be able to agree that some things are true no matter what anyone thinks. It does not matter if 2+2=4 is not true in the mind of a fool. Yes, in the mind of that person it is not true but the fact remains that the fool is wrong. 2+2=4 no matter what the fool thinks. His/her thinking cannot change reality.

Oh god! I would yell my way through those lessons :) Philosophy and sociology would be more like me.

Jesus was one of many of the ancient god’s children that were born at xmas time and then died to be resurrected. There is a historical theme based on the original worship of the Sun, but where Jesus (And the other resurrected savoir/virgin birthed folks before him)<br />
For those that are interested.<br />
http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/jesus_similar.html

You assume things can be so clear cut Abb.<br />
Truth is subjective, like you find it plausible that there is an invisible dimension where an omnipotent being that somehow didn’t foresee his own minion betraying him (Despite the omnipotence), and that that invisible being in it's invisible dimension made people to be inherently flawed, and then sent his Son so that he could live, become a zombie, and fly up into the air.<br />
Regardless of whether you believe in God or my invisible Dinosaur, one of us is wrong and it sure isn’t me :)<br />
No truths are absolute, perhaps one day we will make a digital God in some super-computer, at which point ‘God’ might become a real thing. In which case you might call him God, while I might call him ‘Aibo’<br />
2 + 2=4 is more then an equation, it is an ex<x>pression of our SUBJECTIVE human experience. If someone does not believe us, then to them; it is not a correct statement. In which case it is not true to them. We might be able to convince them with a lesson in basic math, we probably could once we had proven what two means and what four means and explained that two two’s makes four. Still, they may not believe us, the truth is subjective to your experience with it. <br />
Just as I could never believe in God (This conclusion I have drawn from recent discussions) because there is no evidence available (Fullstop).<br />
But science…I can thrive on the evidences that science provides me, those same evidences steer my opinion of God into ‘Totally impossible’.<br />
Science has more beauty than every translation of the bible combined.

You think truth is subjective? How do you figure? I mean either 2+2=4 or or it does not. Truth is abolute and completely ob<x>jective. When I say ob<x>jective I mean that there is a reality independant of the mind or independant of whatever you or I think. <br />
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An excellent example is a belief god. I believe in god and you do not. Either you are correct or I am. Either there is a god or there is not. If there is not a god then no matter how much I believe, god still does not exist. Conversely, if there is a god, no matter how much you disbelieve, there still exists a god. <br />
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We both agree that 2+2=4 but if someone does not believe, the truth does not change. 2+2 still equals 4.<br />
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If no truths are absolute then nothing can be known and therefore we know nothing and we are nothing.