Cheating Can Be An End In Itself...

Sounds like you were pretty immature and not ready for a committed relationship when you wrote that. Are you still with that young woman?

Ive cheated myself and have ended up in a mess because of it. All I will say is that surely if you choose to spend the rest of your life with someone they should at least be the one person you share trust and honesty with? Cheating disempowers your partner and takes away any choice they have as a person.

Sounds like it is. I am similar in my approach that the LOVE thing is real and sex is just something done for fun etc....I hear you

Okay... wanting meaningless sex is natural. My husband had the same problem but never went out of the marriage and talked to me about the urges because they scared him. He actually cried almost when telling me what was going on in his head. Me being supportive of the way he felt and wanted meaningless sex we started the roleplaying rough sex part. I made statements throughout our sexual session that made him think the sex was meaningless. Things I can't write here but I looked at the problem as a fantacy that he may want. It worked out and I hope maybe thid could for ur marriage. I love you is not used often now during sex but dirtyer things are. It puts the mind set at just a one night stand or a girl you met and just bring to hotel for an hour. Tell your wife like he told me. U would be amazed at what changing up in ur own room will do wonders

Self control ... or honesty for your lack of it,,??? Perhaps...?

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I will admit that you have come up with a decent argument as to what is considered "bad" but I would say that if the tables were turned would you be ok with her doing the same to you because in that case I'm not sure how deep your feelings are for her. I also wonder if it would be best for you to be honest with her because she may surprise you and feel the same way. You say that it isn't bad because what she doesn't know won't hurt her but that also means that you have no problems lying to her because she believes that she has a faithful boyfriend and the majority of the time she does but the nights that you cheat that's not the case. Currently she trusts you and every time you lie or cheat on her you are hurting her because if she ever finds out it will be so much worse. Also your argument doesn't work in the sense that if you got an STI just because you didn't tell her you cheated she would get harmed from you not speaking and not catching it in time to prevent her from catching it. In that case not knowing and not saying anything about your activities has caused her harm.

Clearly Flirts, you're an intelligent guy. You make good, lengthy arguments about your stance on the situation you're in, where in summary, you feel its o.k to cheat on your girlfriend because she isn't getting hurt.

There is no doubt a very interesting argument/debate going on here, but I don't think it's really to do with cheating itself. More to do with honesty and how much value you place on it.

In general people in society kinda go along the lines of "respect each other, by being honest to each other. It's wrong to be deceitful whereby you are causing harm, or MAY potentially cause harm by your actions." I certainly do anyway! For example I personally probably wouldn't ever cheat on my girlfriend, in the same way I wouldn't steal because I personally believe both actions to be "wrong".



Some of what people have written in response is funny, it's as if they have completely missed your point when they ask questions that effectively you've already answered in your original post.

I hear what you're saying, essentially people are supposed to be monogamous via society rather than our actual primal animal instincts for sexual conquests. That's obvious when you consider how many people aren't monogamous! lol So why should you be monogamous?

I guess that's the probably the most interesting bit of the whole debate for me. Why should anyone be monogamous? Whether people are right or wrong to believe things like monogamy is the "right" way to be, the "way it's supposed" I don't actually think matters. At the end of the day we're different to other animals

because we're able to conceptualise, which essentially governs how we live as a society and function (hopefully!).

I think the most crucial part of whether you're right to randomly cheat once a year, for the excitement you seem to crave, is probably simply "is your girlfriend o.k with it?" If you know she'd be upset if she found out, and the consequences of how upset she is is something you have to weigh against your actions, then you have your answer to the "is what you're doing right or wrong for you personally?" (whatever those terms really mean!)

I'm quite sure I'd love the excitement of a situation where I could cheat on my girlfriend, but i know it would break her heart forever, and it would also emotionally cripple me for doing that to her and I couldn't live with myself for those reasons, so I choose not to cheat on her. Those are fundamentally my main reasons. There's lots of others like "my family would be disappointed" etc, etc. And yes I realise that's just because they'd be placing their values on me, but I happen to believe in those values for the same reasons they do, because you could end up breaking someones heart.

Because if for example, you love her and want to be with her, but know that she would break up with you if she found out (and assuming that's not something you'd want) then is the cheating that you do really worth that? If the answer is "yes it's worth it" then carry on cheating. Because obviously it's not "wrong enough" for you to make it something you wouldn't do.

Everyone has a moral compass, yourself included as you've stated your opinions about stealing, etc.

People can not answer your question, to justify their claim that what you're doing is "wrong", because what you're doing is wrong to them but not you. You'll never agree, it's a pointless debate.

If you meet someone else down the line who you never cheat on because you believe it would be wrong to do so, because she'd be so upset that she'd break up and it would emotionally cripple you, then perhaps you might see things differently. But for now, you're not with that person. You're with someone who doesn't fulfill your every need.

Perhaps you'll never meet someone who can fulfill your every sexual need or desire? But if whoever you are with believes cheating is wrong, and you choose to lie to her by not telling her that you've cheated, I think a much more important question is "why are you o.k with lying to someone?" If you truly believe you're right in what you do, tell the truth and see what happens... she might accept what you do, or leave you. And whichever she does will give you your answer as to whether what you're doing is ok or not, right or wrong (for you and you only), if you like! lol

I personally think cheating on your girlfriend periodically just to satisfy a boyish fantasy of excitement, continuing to do so behind your partners back, lying to her about things you've done or not done when she asks is probably not a great way to live your life, based on how many millions of people say "Don't cheat, it will end really badly it always does." Statistically you kind of can't really argue that the odds are stacked against you that it will end badly for you. I hope for your sake it doesn't end badly, but then again if it does well you kinda had it coming! lol I mean that in a nice way not a nasty way of course...

Anyways, those are my thoughts a bit higgledy piggledy! Sorry about that, I've rambled a bit. Good luck with your situation, I hope it works out for you and your partner whatever you choose to do.



Out of interest, does the deceitful side of what you do turn you on? The power of knowledge that your partner doesn't have but you do? Is that something you enjoy?

Be aware if you cheat like i did you could lose the best thing that ever happened to you. Its just a matter of time before you get caught. If you play in the highway your gonna get hit by a bus. Its hard to watch the person you love move on to someone else especially when you know you were the in the wrong

An interesting question, but I'd have to say yes it is still cheating, because the act preceded the denial and the indifference. The revealing or not, or his believing or not, of something as the truth doesn't change the nature of what it is. However, the moral conceptions around it are something more fluid and variable, depending on the lens through which they are perceived. Cheating, perhaps, but wrong? Not really for me to say in your case, but in my opinion it seems it wasn't a tragic error.

LOL...I've never done it with a total stranger, but thanks for believing in me! Keep it real.

It's funny how some people define unacceptable behavior. One person thinks its ok to hire a hooker but he won't download free music online because it is unethical. Tru story...my point being that everyone is different, like it or not. Many will find it acceptable to cheat the IRS but not the church. Some think speeding is ok because everyone else on the street is doing it. You can't really draw a line down the middle and say "these are the values we all endorse and these are the ones we are supposed to believe in but we really don't". Well, you can try, but as you can see, it doesn't work.

Flirts, we are all sexual beings. All this arguing and rationalisation for/against cheating is just a waste of time. You won't change "their" mind and "they" won't change yours. Do what makes you happy, what makes you feel good.

**** everyone else.

But please don't be spreadin' no diseases around, especially if you are bonking strangers while drunk.

And Atlien, geez.

wow flirts you are really pissed off. sorry about your luck, but for some reason guys on the edge really turn me on.

Ok Atlien, see if you can grasp this, because I feel like I'm talking to a wall...



I'm not sure I understand the similarity in the stealing analogy. We both agree this isn't a discussion about stealing, which personally I DO find to be a completely different act than cheating. While someone of your crystallized and enlightened understanding of "right" and "wrong" may be able to see that both are clearly "wrong" and for similar reasons, I don't see that one has anything to do with the other, since one deals with dishonesty to a person and the other with blatantly taking someone's property, which is something they (presumably) have obtained through their own hard work and effort.



I don't need to explain in detail because it's irrelevant to the primary discussion, but I have a much larger disdain for theft. That being said, I disdain it for my own reasons and do not steal, yet I still refrain from judging others who might have reasons I can't understand. Until they steal from me, in which case, I have a problem. Regardless, I feel the point is moot, because in one instance, you can measure the harm, and in the other, from what I can tell, you cannot.



Second, I am not being touchy or defensive. I simply requested, albeit rather facetiously, that if we are going to have a meaningful dialogue on philosophy, then perhaps we could do it in a way that doesn't require me to read English that looks like it was written by a twelve year old on her cell phone. Thank you for acknowledging this.



Continuing to disagree with you or defending my original position isn't being touchy, it's actually what people engaged in rational discourse usually do. However, if you'd like me to simply agree to your point of view, I can certainly do that. All it would require would be my yielding the integrity of my own argument and basically admitting to having wasted everyone's time defending a position I don't really believe in. I suppose that would be the easiest route for you to accept, hm? Unfortunately, it's not that easy for me.



Finally, fundamental to the argument posited by both of us is a definition of the concept of "harm". You make the unsupported assertion that a lie that is undiscovered is in some way harmful. My initial point, and the one that still has not been answered adequately by anyone who's engaged me, is that a provable harm doesn't exist in a lie that isn't discovered. This is why stealing is different from cheating, because discovered or not, theft physically takes something away, something that can be measured.



With cheating, the only argument I have heard is that some vague concept of the value of "honesty" has been damaged. However, I have yet to hear what exactly that is and how that value can be measured. The more basic point is that everyone lies about something, and usually we do it when we think we can get away with it. Sometimes we do it to protect ourselves, sometimes to protect others, and sometimes for no discernible reason whatsoever.



Regardless, I can't have an argument about an ideal without establishing what the value of that ideal is; otherwise, we will continue having this circular discussion where someone keeps telling me this or that is "wrong" without ever REALLY explaining why. Just because it's not honest doesn't de facto make it wrong; I am merely asking for someone to prove WHY it is wrong using something other than their own claims about "valuing honesty" more than I do.



That is the only thing I find frustrating about this discussion. I'm not shying away from the counter-argument...I'm just asking someone to really defend it with something more substantial than a value judgment that isn't agreed upon. If it's just an ideal that is more precious to you than it is to me, then I stand by the initial rant (SEE "you can't judge me just because we have different concepts of right and wrong"). If there is something more, I'm still waiting to hear it.



Otherwise, people should stop trying to make others feel guilty for something that is "wrong" when not one person has yet articulated a RATIONAL reason for it being so.

Oh my gosh flirts, sounds like you're pretty pissed off.

Hey, don't sound so hostile. Afterall, I believe it was you who invited people to disagree with your point of view at the end of your post. Don't get all touchy when someone actually does it. Secondly, demanding perfect grammar on something as trivial as a web forum is ridiculous and slightly humorous but have it your way (I'm even using capital letters for you this time).



Okay, my point about lies surfacing is just that your logic of 'what she doesn't know won't hurt her' goes out the window if it is discovered that you're cheating. Everything hinges on your ability to deceive but evidently you're a master of deception since your lies are impossible to discover. Let's just forget about that aspect.



Our fundamental disagreement is that I come from the crazy school of thought in which it is not okay to do something hurtful to someone, much less someone you're supposed to love and care about it, regardless of if you can rationalize it in your own head and get away with it. I know it's hard to imagine that some people think this way. Since your wonderful tree falling in the woods analogy painted a vivid picture for me about your logic, allow me one. Let's say you have a friend or family member with more money than they know what to do with. So much so that if you take a couple hundreds out of their wallet they wouldn't know it was even gone much less miss it. Sure, they'd probably find it pretty devious and be hurt by it if they somehow found it, but hey, they'll never realize it. No harm done and you get to treat yourself to a night of fun. Is this okay?



Now, yes, stealing and cheating are two different things but you'd be missing the point if you try to argue how one is a worse offense than the other. You can substitute stealing or cheating with anything under the sun that might harm another person and my point can still be made. It's wrong to do hurtful things to people, especially people you love, regardless of if you don't see the wrong in it and trick them into not knowing. And if you do it and, god forbid, feel guilt about doing it, that doesn't make you a weak person unable to reach the higher level of thought process in which you can rationalize wrong-doings. It just makes you compasionate about the feelings of someone you care about and puts that person before your own selfish needs to have a good time. Explain to me the wrong in this.



Listen, I'm capable of comprehending why you feel the way you do, I just disagree with it and I'm expressing that dissent as you so courtesouly invited me to do. Thank you for having an open mind.

If a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it, does anyone CARE that it fell? It's not rhetorical; the answer is NO. Some lies don't and never need to be discovered. Belief that they "always surface" is just something people who are too afraid to act say to justify their own self-restraint.



On the contrary, some lies are impossible to discover, and sometimes people- even when confronted with the truth- would not believe it anyway. But that's neither here nor there, because I was speaking more to whether a person should feel bad about their own actions, and not to whether or not they should act on their guilt. If I felt guilt in the way you wish I did, then I would certainly tell her. I just don't. It's something you can't understand, I suppose.



Additionally, I refuse to continue a conversation with someone who can't use the word "you" in a conversation, opting for the singular vowel alternative. English is a beautifully complex language, and if I ever see that "LMAO", "ROFL", or "u" have become accepted in the dictionary, I will hold you personally responsible.

i'm not saying ur wrong for feeling the way u do about cheating i'm just saying ur wrong for being in a relationship with someone who doesn't share ur enlightened views on the matter. it's evident that ur gf wouldn't feel the same way otherwise u would have no problem telling her what u do and giving her ur explanation for it. u say proof of ur caring about her is in the fact that u don't tell her. a 'what she doesn't know won't hurt her' approach. not doing what u know would hurt her, regardless of if she knows or not, would probably illustrate ur feelings of care a little better though. but u r right that she can't be hurt if she doesn't know, however, as someone else already pointed out, lies will always surface and be found out at some point.

What's wrong with being egotistical? Isn't American society predicated on selfishness? And it's not that I don't consider her feelings. If I didn't care about her feelings I would tell her and break up with her. There are many ways in which I DO care about her that many people could never understand (SEE my other story in this experience topic). It's so easy for everyone to speak from such a selfless perspective, but the truth is that we all bend rules from time to time when it's convenient...I just don't think the line is as clear as everyone would like to believe. There are degrees of right and wrong in every action, and not understanding a person's motives leaves one drastically underqualified to make a judgment about another person's actions.

ur justifications are very egotisical though... u talk about looking urself in the mirror and if u can ultimately live with ur actions than it's ok. u neglect to consider very much how ur significant other would feel or how, if she did the same to u, it would hurt u... if u know it would cause her pain than u should take it into consideration more if u actually care about her. what u say about how u urself feel about cheating is understandable and not unnormal by any means. but u probably shouldn't bring a significant other along for the ride if u can't consider their feelings as well.

I ask for people's opinions because I like the discussion. I understand that they way I act is confusing to some and detestable to others. For me, I think the act itself is secondary to the desire to be free to make a choice...there have been times when I've been given the opportunity to cheat and not done so. Obviously, some feel it is a bad choice for them or for me. That's a fair opinion; I simply don't feel that way.



And I do understand the point made about putting someone else before oneself as a measure of love. I agree, that probably is true. I just feel that I am not capable of love in that form, and that is no fault of my girlfriend but rather because that is who I have become in this life. The love I experience in life is more a love of ideals than of people. Some might think me empty for being this way, but there is beauty everywhere in the world I see. I love my girlfriend for who she is and what she means to me.



Like I've said from the beginning, it is really about perspective. I respect everyone's right to have an opinion on me and how I live my life...I suppose that's why I post any stories at all. However, I also feel I have the right to offer an alternative perspective to people who might be feeling guilty or bad for the wrong reasons. My point from the beginning, was that the beauty in being human is in our ability to choose. What those choices mean to a person is his or hers alone to decide. If it is a mistake, we are still free to choose to make that mistake.



Some agree, some disagree...it's still their choice to feel one way or the other, or anywhere in between. That's what I've defended from the beginning, and that's the point I will not yield.

I have been in both situations. It is about honesty. If you are proud of what you do, in this case cheating, then be open about it; it is the dishonesty and making someone else look like a fool that is really unfair. Sex can get really complicated when it becomes too much of a priority. I don't get why people just can't find someone they truly love and stick with them...

It's a bumpy road you have chosen and I feel terribly for your girlfriend. I've been in her position and in my mind a lie is a lie regardless when the hurt comes, if ever. It was not and is not acceptable behaviour for MY particular relationship needs. What are her needs? And if you care about her as you say you do, why not put her needs before your own? After all that is one of the top signs of caring about another or being in love - placing their needs above your own.



For me, if this were acceptable, it would have been something we'd already discussed, acknowledged as a dynamic in our reltionship and a practice/activity we both (more than likely both) participate in.



With that said ...



I wonder what it is your girlfriend would say or how she would feel if she knew. You say you don't care what anyone feels about this yet you claim you care about her. If you care about her you obviously concern yourself with her feelings.



I also wonder since it's not that big of a deal to you why you don't simply tell her... If it's not that big of a deal surely it shouldn't bother her either, right? ... Especially considering she cares about you a great deal in return, right?



Perhaps you can help me understand how a man can claim to care about a woman yet he cheats on her without reason (regardless of planning or lack thereof.) Then again, I suspect this is something I simply will never understand considering my age, experiences and the maturity level they've carried me to ...



Please understand I am not placing nor casting judgement upon you. That is NOT my place. However, I am confused by your actions and in my experience... lies always surface and are found out - those skeletons simply refuse to sit by quietly in the closet.



Perhaps rather than "scratching the itch" or feeding your need for 'strange' you could 'explore' new options with your girlfriend ... role playing perhaps? Have her dress completely out of character; clothes, makeup, hair and all. She needs to take on a different persona and pretend she doesn't know you ... Perhaps this will allow her to be completely uninhibited and you'll discover 'strange' within your own relationship and in a healthy manner that will not cause heart break...?.?.?...

That's a very interesting point. I think I would agree that we always are judging things from our own cultural point of view, which may be historically or biologically inaccurate as a measure of the character of all people...very good thought, and conveyed well in a neutral manner.

Thank you for sharing. I really try to shy away from being judgemental. We do live in a society that is full of such not really looking at themselves and trying to understand why other people really even do what they do. So quick to decide the fate of someone else. I would be ignorant if could not understand and accept that historically, and in some cultures, this is and was normal and acceptable behavior to have more than one lover. I certainly do not want to encourage hurting others or justifying yourself, but in your heart you know what is right and wrong for you. Maybe we have it all backwards. I just do not think one person can be everything for one person in all relationships. If it works for them, thats great, but you are not everyone. If people were as honest as they like to pretend, our world might be healthier.

I agree...there are few things that I find more distasteful than a person who is dishonest about his or her own true nature. If we cannot act out on impulse or be free to make our own choices, what is the point of life? Even if it were a mistake, it is simply a matter of choice...



One of my own personal sayings on the matter: "Good and bad are just words society uses to condition our behavior toward or against certain actions. The words themselves, however, don't actually mean anything. What matters, what really matters, is choice: what you choose to do or not, and how that affects the person you see in the mirror tomorrow."



If I make a "bad" decision but can still live with myself, I don't much care what someone else has to say against my actions. I dare any hypocrite to live in my head for a day...they'd be too frightened by the nightmares they see to even think about the decisions I make while I'm awake.

I think that society has accepted that they are supposed to think that what you are doing is 'bad' or morally wrong. But I said in another story, I would bet money that everyone has either been cheated on or was the one doing the cheating or was the other person. And if given the oppurtunity I would gaurantee more than half of these hypocrites would take someone up on the offer to cheat. There are a lot of people that will either agree or (pretend to) disagree with your story. But are they going to tell you? What's funny to me is how did these people end up on these type of stories if they weren't looking for them???? I think I may have went off on a few tangents... Sorry. I guess my point is, is that there are a lot of people that want to judge and act holier than thou when in fact they are just like the rest of us. At least some people are honest. That may make them worse...

I must apologize to my good friend slutslider...my comments were not directed at you, but rather at the more judgmental comment that preceded yours, about self-rationalization and such...the truth is, I think more people would act differently if they thought it was ok. Like I said, I'm open to comments, I just reserve the right to disagree and defend my position. Thanks for the reinforcements as well, blondie.

F*** the a**holes judging you, do as you wish, you only live once right? I really don't think ppl mean to upset you, it's just how they see it or have been crushed by cheaters, but once a year isn't that bad and is unplanned. It's not like you are going out of your way to cheat on your girlfriend or just trying to find someone new to screw and hey we all have habits that are hard to break and I don't think anybody is purposely trying to call you a bad person for doing what you feel it is just more or less how they see it or a past experience that makes them more active on how they feel about a certain subject. I wish you all the best of luck.