Rape Is Not A Misunderstanding

This is LONG as I hope to address as many issues as possible in this post and can simply refer to it in the future. It is very apparent that MrAnti's will continue in fraudulent claims especially regarding Rape, the current state of 'equality in law' and that feminism is therefore not needed or useful in modern society. Dates are included so critics can appreciate the fact that many issues involve living generations and are being dealt with in MODERN feminism.

If you can't be bothered to read the article please don't bother commenting, any TL/DR comments are unwanted and unhelpful and will result in total disgust because illiterate or lazy people who choose to remain ignorant to the content  being discussed but insist on posting non-content comments are not ever  wanted but are especially unwanted on discussions of rape.  

Feminism Comes In Many Flavors, What They Are* and What They Want


Liberal feminists contend that women are discriminated against on the basis of their sex, so that they are denied access to the same political, financial, career and personal opportunities as men. This can be eliminated by removing obstacles to women’s access to education, paid employment and political activity, by enabling women to participate equally with men in the public sphere and by enacting legal change. The problem for gender inequality can be solved by clearing the way for women’s rapid integration into what has been the world of men. 

Liberal View On Criminality 

"sociological factors, not physiology, best explain criminality." - Simon

"There is a strong relationship between women’s emancipation and the increase in female crime rates. As women become more liberated and become more involved in full time jobs, they are more likely to engage in the types of crime that men commit." -- Simon & Adler  


Marxist theory argues that the economic formation of a society is the primary determinant of other social relations, such as gender relations. Marxist feminism agreed with liberal feminism that women are dominated by men and are prevented from full participation in all aspects of society. As Marxists, they believe that ultimately the key explanatory factor is the nature of the economy. The gender division of labor is viewed as the product of the class division of labor. Because women are seen as being primarily dominated by capital and secondarily by men, the main strategy for change is the transformation from a capitalist to a democratic socialist society..

View on Rape

"Rape is not common in all societies. Capitalist societies have the highest rape rates because they produce unequal gender relations that foster violence. The exploitative modes of production that have culminated in the formation of class societies have either produced or intensified sexual inequality and violence."  -- Schwindinger


Radical feminists see male power and privilege as the root cause of all social relations, inequality and crime. The most important relations in any society are found in patriarchy (masculine control of the labor power and sexuality of women). All other relations such as class are secondary and derive from male female relations. The main causes of gender inequality are patriarchy, and the influence of it upon men to create the "needs" of men to control women’s sexuality and reproductive potential. 

"patriarchy as a social system in which men disproportionately occupy positions of power and authority, central norms and values are associated with manhood and masculinity (which in turn are defined in terms of dominance and control), and men are the primary focus of attention in most cultural spaces " - Johnson

View On Abuse

Radical feminists see rape as arising from patriarchal constructions of gender and sexuality within the context of broader systems of male power, and emphasize the harm that rape does to women as a group.

Their work has focused on female victims/survivors of male violence. 
Radical feminist theory contends that men physically, sexually and psychologically victimize women mainly because they need to desire to control them (the need is created within a patriarchal society). --Herman


Socialist Feminism  is informed by both Marxist and radical feminism. Class and gender relations are viewed as equally important. To understand class we must recognize how it is structured by gender, conversely to understand gender requires an examination of how it is structured by class. In sum, socialist feminists argue that we are influenced by both gender and class relations.

View on Crime

Crime is mainly seen as "the product of patriarchal capitalism." --BEIRNE

Feminism Theory And Criminology :

Remember that gender is not a natural fact (sex is) but a complex social, historical and cultural product. It is related to, but not simply derived from, biological sex difference and reproductive capacities.  

“Both genders need to be taught the signs of an abuser NOT just to avoid them but to be able to recognize those signs in themselves.” – Phenicks

"Feminism seeks the elimination of all forms of gender inequality. The goal is not to push men out but to pull women in." - Adler

Feminist criminology today is concerned with the victimization of women, female delinquency, prostitution and gender inequality in the law and criminal justice system. 

Virtually all feminist thinking about rape shares several underlying themes. First among these is feminists' emphasis on “breaking the silence” around rape. Feminist thought and activism have challenged the myth that rape is rare and exceptional, showing that it is in fact a common experience in the lives of girls and women. In recent decades, this awareness emerged in feminist “speakouts” and consciousness-raising groups, where women shared their experiences of rape and other forms of abuse. It has now been amply confirmed by research: according to one study of 16,000 Americans, 17.6% of women report having been victims of rape or attempted rape at some time in their lives (Tjaden and Thoennes, 2000). Of these women, 54% were under age eighteen when they were first raped, and these women were twice as likely to report having been raped as adults. Indeed, many women suffer multiple rapes in their lives: among those who reported having been raped in the past year, the average number of rapes per woman during that time period was 2.9.


Perhaps the most basic challenge that feminists have posed to traditional views of rape lies in the recognition of rape as a crime against the victim herself. For much of recorded history women were the property of men, with their value as property measured largely by their sexual “purity.” In this context, rape was regarded as a property crime against a woman's husband or father (Burgess-Jackson 1996, 44-49). A raped woman or girl was less valuable as property, and penalties for rape often involved fines or other compensation paid to her husband or father (Burgess-Jackson 1996, 68). The marital rape exemption in law, which survived in the U.S. into the 1990's, is clearly a remnant of this approach, assuming as it does that no crime is committed when a man forces intercourse upon his wife, since she is his own property; the property status of enslaved African-American women was also thought to entitle their owners to the women's unrestricted sexual use. 

A further corollary of this view was that  "women who were not the private property of any individual man—for instance, prostitutes—were unrapeable, or at least that no one important was harmed by their rape"  (Dworkin 1997). 

Sadly, the rate of rape reporting remains low; studies using random sample surveys of large numbers of women find "reporting rates ranging from 16% to 36%"  Anderson (2003) . Rates of conviction, too, remain substantially lower than for other violent crimes; some studies estimate a "conviction rate of 5% " -Caringella (2008) in the U.S. Feminists' recognition of the severity and pervasiveness of rape's harms, and of how infrequently victims receive justice, has inspired decades of activism for social and legal change.

Feminist views of rape can be understood as arrayed on a continuum from liberal to radical. Liberal views tend to regard rape as a gender-neutral assault on individual autonomy, likening it to other forms of assault and/or illegitimate appropriation, and focusing primarily on the harm that rape does to individual victims. More radical views, in contrast, contend that rape must be recognized and understood as an important pillar of patriarchy.

Feminist criteria, what is rape?

Feminists are committed to ensuring that women's and girls' experiences of sexual violation are taken seriously as such, that the harm they suffer therein is recognized, and that those who inflict that harm are held accountable. Achieving these goals has often involved arguing that certain kinds of encounters that have previously not been socially or legally recognized as rape should be so recognized—thus, challenging overly restrictive ideas often encoded in law about what counts as rape. --- see  Burgess-Jackson (1996)  and Sanday (1996)  and most recently Bevacqua 2000.

Social and legal understandings of rape are usually based (at least partly) on the notion of consent. However, in Law there is often "a force requirement". To consent to something is to reverse a prima facie supposition about what may and may not be done. In other words there is a standing presumption that one does not have access to and may not make use of another's body, property, personal information, or other elements of his or her personal domain. This presumption is reversed, however, when (and for as long as) the other consents to such access. Consent alters the structure of rights and obligations between two or more parties. 

In sexual encounters, rape exists where consent is lacking, the question then becomes what counts as consent. Women's sexual consent has in many instances been understood quite expansively,  it has too often been assumed that a woman's appearance, attire, status, location, prior sexual history, or relationship to the man in question either function as stand-ins for consent (that is, as “asking for it”) or render her consent irrelevant or unnecessary."A vital task on the feminist agenda has been to challenge and discredit such ideas—to deny that what a woman wears, where she goes and with whom, or what sexual choices she has made in the past have any relevance to whether she should be seen as having consented to sex on a particular occasion." --MacKinnon 

"Consent in general may be understood as either attitudinal or per-formative"--Kazan (1998). Attitudinal accounts see consent as a mental state of affirmation or willingness, while performative accounts see it as a certain kind of action or utterance or instance, saying “yes” or nodding. 

Because of this things such as wearing revealing clothes, going somewhere alone with a man, or engaging in heavy petting have often been claimed by perpetrators to constitute evidence that a woman was in a mental state of willingness to have intercourse, feminists have often rejected attitudinal accounts in favor of performative ones; with a performative account, in contrast, a defendant can be challenged to articulate exactly what the woman said or did that constituted her consent to intercourse and an added advantage of a performative account is that it suggests that sexual consent is not a woman's implied default state, but rather must be actively and affirmatively granted.
(this is in contrast to traditional patriarchal views, which often assumed that unless a woman physically resisted—again, even “to the utmost” (which was the way laws were formerly worded and enforced )  a  man's attempt to have intercourse, she was consenting <-----or at the very least he was justified in proceeding on that assumption.

One limitation of a purely performative account of consent is that it does not take into account the context in which the relevant behavior or utterance occurs. For instance, if a woman says “yes” or even feigns sexual enthusiasm in order to keep a knife-wielding attacker from becoming angry and hurting or killing her, it would be absurd to regard her behavior or utterance as consent. This is why feminists advocate for meaningful consent.

There are many kinds of explicit and implicit threats that render a woman's consent to sex less than meaningful.  This distinction is criticized by detractors as  "that 'no' always means no, we must recognize that, in some cases, 'yes'also means no".  

In many jurisdictions, the law defines the crime of rape as comprising two separate elements: force and lack of consent.


In many jurisdictions, the law defines the crime of rape as comprising two separate elements: force and lack of consent.

"sex that is undeniably forced is, nevertheless, not rape if the victim “consented” to it; and … sex that is undeniably nonconsensual is, nevertheless, not rape if there was no force used to obtain it."  -- Circuit Court    (2006)

"historically, rape law has seen two kinds of forced sex as consensual: first, the sex that a man forces on his wife (since she was thought to have “consented” permanently and irrevocably to sex by getting married); and second, submission or acquiescence in the face of a show of force and/or a threat of more violence to come----women are often portrayed in both pornographic and mainstream media as enjoying, and (the assumption is) therefore consenting to, forceful and even violent sex; such assumptions often derail rape cases, as when a defendant claims that the encounter was simply “rough sex” that was enjoyed by the victim. Underlying the inclusion of a nonconsent requirement over and above the force requirement----is the view that “women consent to forced sex all the time—so forced sex alone can't be rape” --West  in response to finding of the courts finding and the law (2006)

Cases of nonconsensual but unforced sex, include those in which the victim is induced to have sex through fraudulent misrepresentation (for instance, a doctor telling her that sex with him is necessary for her cure) and those in which she is coerced through nonviolent means (for instance, threat of job loss). The tendency of the law to see such encounters as meaningfully consensual departs strikingly from how consent is understood in other areas, “fraud or coercion that vitiates consent in nonsexual contexts constitutes either criminal or tortious activity” --West

Most feminists see the dual requirement of force and nonconsent as redundant at best and, at worst, as defining many rapes out of existence. Feminists differ, however, as to how rape laws should ideally be structured. Perhaps the most common view is that the force requirement should be eliminated, and rape defined simply as nonconsensual sex, with differing degrees of severity depending on whether and how much force and violence are employed-  Survey 2002/ Estrich 

While some state statutes are now written this way, they often build physical force into the definition of non-consent; thus in practice they function very much like the dual requirement of force and non-consent , Feminists continue to lobby  and speak out against this.

Feminist View ON Harm and Wrongness Of Rape

Any legal definition of ‘rape’ implies some correlative idea of what is morally wrong with rape: its illegitimate use of force, its disregard of the victim's nonconsent, and so on. Feminist theorists have often sought to articulate a more richly textured sense of rape's wrongness, and of its distinctive harms, than the law alone can provide.

The view most commonly identified with feminism in popular discourse is that rape is a crime of “violence, not sex” however, this view has rarely been defended by feminist philosophers

"that [rape] is, a form of assault whose sexual nature is irrelevant, and which is analogous to other violent crimes" -Brownmiller 1975 alleged by Cahill 2005 (Cahill says this is Brownmiller's view from conversation/interview which happened in 1975 but has no corroboration other than Cahill)   

Such efforts often seek to challenge views of rape as a “crime of passion,” motivated by the perpetrator's overwhelming lust presumably in response to the victim's sexual attractiveness and/or provocation. Thus, in addition to challenging victim-blaming assumptions, feminists often emphasized rapists' non-sexual motivations, such as anger and the desire for dominance and control; on this view, the rapist is a violent criminal like other violent criminals, not just a guy seeking sex a bit too vigorously. Similarly, this approach emphasizes that rape victims are real crime victims, not vaguely titillating people who had some overly rough sex and might just have liked it.

However, limitations of the “violence, not sex” approach are fairly glaring. Rape's sexual nature is central to understanding both its perpetrators' motivations and its effects on victims, not to mention the crime's broader social and ideological roots and consequences. While perpetrators differ in their strongest occurrent motivations, it is important to ask why so many men who wish to harm or violate women do so in a sexual manner.  some rapes do occur because a man wants to have sex, and perhaps would even prefer it if his partner consented, but is prepared to proceed without her consent. Rape's sexual character is central from the perspective of both actual and potential victims.

“few women would agree that being raped is essentially equivalent to being hit in the face” - Kent

Furthermore, many rape survivors are damaged specifically in their sexuality, facing difficulties in their sexual relationships in the months and years following the rape. Finally, because many rapes do not involve overt extrinsic violence, the “violence, not sex” slogan may make it more difficult for people to recognize less obviously violent experiences of sexual force as rape. In short, rape is forced, abusive, and/or violent sex; recognizing rape's sexual nature is crucial to understanding not only its wrongs and harms, but also the cultural and political meaning of sex in patriarchal cultures.

"so long as we say that [rape, sexual harassment, and ***********] are abuses of violence, not sex, we fail to criticize what has been made of sex, what has been done to us through sex” -- MacKinnon (1985)

"The violation of bodily and sexual autonomy is no doubt among rape's most central harms" --Frye

In their classic feminist discussion  Frye and Shafer employed the concept of “domain” to elaborate on such violation. A person's domain—“the physical, emotional, psychological, and intellectual space it lives in” (1977)—defines the range of matters over which the person has rightful power of consent. Because a person's body is at the very center of her domain and is the locus of the properties and capacities that make her a person, the intentional invasion of the body is an especially egregious attack: “to presume to wield an effective power of consent over the personal properties and/or the body of [a] creature … is ipso facto to deny that there is a person there at all....Thus, rape treats the victim not as a person but as an object”

"Whether it is the rapist's intention or not, being raped conveys for the woman the message that she is a being without respect, that she is not a person” 

"representing the rapist as master and the victim as inferior object [rape] does an objective “moral injury” to its victim's value"--Hampton (1999)

 “Rape, in its total denial of the victim's agency, will, and personhood, can be understood as a denial of intersubjectivity itself …. The self is at once denied and … stilled, silenced, overcome” --Cahill (2001)

The humiliation and shame often experienced by rape victims are predictable results of experiencing total subjugation and the intimate loss of control of one's body. These reactions...not to mention victims' feelings of contamination, of having been defiled or desecrated... are often exacerbated by cultural judgments of the raped  as dirty and impure, or as “damaged goods.” In some cultures, these ideas are so powerful that a woman who is raped (or who has consensual illicit sex) is thought to bring shame on her entire family; such women sometimes become the victims of so-called “honor killings” at the hands of male relatives.

"Victims who do not reveal their rapes to others, whether due to shame or to the expectation that they will not be believed, experience profound isolation and lack of support; and indeed, many who do report their rapes are disbelieved or blamed by friends, family, and/or police. Due to both low reporting levels and low conviction rates, relatively few victims see their rapists punished; many of those raped by relatives, co-workers, friends, or other ongoing acquaintances must then face continuing interaction with the rapist, while those raped by strangers often fear that the rapist will find and re-victimize them."    -NOW 2010 lobby for VAWA (notice victim remains non-gendered)

With or without these additional harms but especially with them, rape constitutes severe trauma. Undergoing trauma shatters the victim's most basic assumptions about herself and her safety in the world. According to Brison, who survived a violent rape and attempted murder, trauma

introduces a “surd”—a nonsensical entry—into the series of events in one's life, making it seem impossible to carry on with the series … . Not only is it now impossible to carry on with the series, but whatever sense had been made of it in the past has been destroyed. The result is an uneasy paralysis. I can't go, I can't stay. All that is left is the present, but one that has no meaning, or has, at most, only the shifting sense of a floating indexical, the dot of a “now” that would go for a walk, if only it knew where to go. (2002)

With its profound effects on social connection, cognition, memory, and emotion, trauma disrupts the continuity of the self. It is strikingly common for a trauma survivor to feel that she is not the same person she was prior to the trauma, and even that at least a part of her has died; as Brison puts it, “I felt as if I was experiencing things posthumously … as though I'd somehow outlived myself” 

To reconstitute the self in a new form, the survivor must construct a meaningful narrative that incorporates the trauma, but many survivors face obstacles in this endeavor such as disordered cognition, memory gaps, feelings of despair and futility, and the lack of an audience willing to hear, believe, and understand their story. Such isolation is exacerbated when the trauma was humanly inflicted (as with rape or domestic violence), since such assaults, as Brison puts it, “[sever] the sustaining connection between the self and the rest of humanity”. Brison's own account emphasizes the “extent to which the self is created and sustained by others and, thus, is able to be destroyed by them” ; this relational element is central both to trauma itself and to any possible recovery. Because “violent intrusions by others … severely impair our ability to be connected to humanity in ways we value” , recovery requires slowly repairing connections...both to others and to damaged parts of oneself....and rebuilding a sense of trust (again, of both oneself and others).

For many women, rape is not a one-time event; rather sexual violence and exploitation are, for at least some period of time, routine conditions of their lives.

"women or girls cannot change the immediate conditions of their existence; where regardless of how they got into those conditions they cannot get out; and where they are subject to sexual violence and exploitation"--Barry (1984)

As observed, such situations include battering relationships, most prostitution, and the sexual abuse of girl children, all of which are common around the world. It is thus important to consider the distinctive effects of such repeated and routine sexual trauma.

Current feminist advocacy groups have recommended the adoption of a new diagnosis, "complex post-traumatic stress disorder, to describe accurately the psychological impact of prolonged, repeated trauma”  --Herman (1997) 

Feminists have long claimed that, in patriarchal cultures, rape is not anomalous but paradigmatic—that it enacts and reinforces, rather than contradicting, widely shared cultural views about gender and sexuality. As Dworkin puts it, “rape is not committed by psychopaths or deviants from our social norms..rape is committed by exemplars of patriarchal social norms …. it embodies sexuality as the culture defines it” (1976)

A core dynamic of patriarchal sexuality, on this view, is the normalizing and sexualizing of male (or masculine) control and dominance over females (or the feminine). This dynamic is expressed in a number of beliefs about what is natural, acceptable, and even desirable in male-female sexual interaction: that the male will be persistent and aggressive, the female often reluctant and passive; that the male is invulnerable, powerful, hard, and commanding, and that women desire such behavior from men; that “real men” are able to get sexual access to women when, where, and how they want it; that sexual intercourse is an act of male conquest; that women are men's sexual objects or possessions; and that men “need” and are entitled to sex.

 A study done in  1999 of  "undetected, self-reported acquaintance rapists found that these individuals' propensity to rape was significantly related not only to their acceptance of rape myths and of traditional ideas about male and female sexuality, but also to their belief that male sexual aggression is normal"  --Hinck & Thomas 

Such beliefs have repeatedly been shown to play a role not only in men's self-reported likelihood of committing rape, but also in people's tendency to define rape more restrictively, and to attribute responsibility and blame to rape victims.

"The influence of rape myths on people's definitions of rape explains why most men who report engaging in “sexually assaultive, abusive, or coercive behavior in order to procure sexual intercourse...do not define their own behavior as rape”  --Hinck ( 1999)

Feminists have coined the term ‘rape culture’ to describe the pervasiveness and acceptability of rape-supportive messages in media and popular discourse.

"On this view, rape is a political practice by which spurious beliefs about gender and sexuality are expressed, inscribed, and enforced via the violation and control of women's bodies. " Wellman 2006

Several feminists have drawn analogies between rape and lynching as forms of terrorizing, group-based social control. 

Card (1996) argues "that rape is a terrorist institution, one which—despite its admitted differences from acts more normally labeled terrorism, such as bombing and hijacking—advances its political purpose, the continued subordination of women, by terrorizing a target population...Like all terrorism, rape has two targets: the direct victims, who are seen as expendable, and the broader population to whom a message is sent, and who can then be manipulated by fear into complying with demands they would otherwise reject. In response to the threat of rape, women scrutinize and restrict their own choices—what they wear, where they go and with whom, whether they drink, what “messages” they may be inadvertently sending men, and so on—to ensure that they are following the unwritten rules that govern female behavior and that (supposedly) distinguish the bad girls who get raped from the good girls who do not. Even women who, because of their conformity to these rules, do not feel afraid of being raped have nonetheless",  Card points out, "been terrorized into compliance."

A central element of rape as a terrorist institution, Card claims, "is a protection racket in which men, as the group both creating the danger and proposing to deliver women from it, dole out protection—sometimes temporary, sometimes permanent, often illusory—in exchange for women's service, loyalty, and compliance. In this system, “good” men protect virtuous and deserving women from “bad” men, and part of what defines a woman as deserving protection is her conformity to rules of patriarchal femininity. Women who are not offered protection, or who decline it when offered, are then frequently blamed for being raped". Furthermore, the rules of  "the institution often grant “protectors”—whether husbands, boyfriends, or pimps—sexual access to the woman or women whom they protect, so that nothing they do to those women is taken to count as rape. The institution thus requires a woman to give up her sexual autonomy in relation to one man, in order to gain his (conditional and unreliable) “protection” from other men."

The threat of rape, with its false promise that by being “good” we can avoid disaster, plays an important role in training women in the requirements of femininity.

Some feminists contend that "even as the institution of rape systematically disadvantages women, it benefits men as a class by underwriting beliefs about the naturalness of male dominance, defining women of certain kinds or in certain circumstances as “fair game,” rendering women dependent on and thus beholden to men for protection, and giving men a competitive advantage by restricting women's freedom of action and movement" --May

Feminists also maintain Rape as a tool of patriarchy,  also enforces doctrines of racism, colonialism, nationalism, and other pernicious hierarchies. 

In the United States, the racial dynamics of rape are shaped by a long history of white men raping their African-American female slaves. Because the women were chattel property, the owners (and often overseers) could and did use them sexually at will, with complete legal and social impunity. (This was also the case for all married women under laws of coveture) Children born of slave mothers were slaves, regardless of their paternity, many slave owners benefited from rape by producing more slaves for themselves. Slaves were frequently forced into undesired sexual liaisons with each other as well, based on the whims or the breeding plans of their owners.

The rape of black women, like the lynching of black men, was a centerpiece of Klan activity post-Emancipation. "However, that unlike lynching, black women's sexual abuse by white men during and after slavery did not become a central or universally understood icon of American racism." --Roberts (1997)

Black women's unrapeability was not only written into law, but reinforced by a racial ideology that defined them as lascivious and promiscuous by nature. This same racial ideology stereotyped black men as savagely oversexed and thus sexually dangerous, especially to white women. The post-Civil War terror campaign of lynching, which continued through the 1930's, was frequently claimed to be punishment for black men who had raped white women. (an act in which white christian men accused black men of rape, found them guilty and executed them all in violation of the constitution and morality of modern society, it should me noted it is now white christian men who predominately accuse feminism of doing to them) Lynching done by KKK members upon black men or women in which there was no outside witness or evidence or in which no claim of any crime was made  is "estimated at 89-95%, of the remainder any "false" accusations are unknown"  --hall (1983)<---not a feminist

Racist ideologies about rape are also prominent in the history of colonialism and genocide against Native Americans. Ideas about "Native men as savage rapists, Native women as downtrodden and raped squaws, and white men as heroic saviors of both white and Native women were essential to the “colonial imagination” that explained and justified the taking of Native lands" -- Smith (2005)

History bears out Smith's claim, as white men routinely raped and brutalized Native people—first as prisoners and in massacres, and later in epidemic levels of sexual abuse of Native children in white-run boarding schools ( 2006).

Rape What Is It Good For

Rape is a common, indeed arguably universal, form of abuse in war. It takes many forms, including the mass rape of female civilians as recreation and/or as a prize for military victory, the mass rape of female civilians as a strategy or weapon of war, and the enslavement of women and girls to provide sexual service for soldiers and officers.

"Additionally, as more women enter military forces, the rape of military women by their own male colleagues is an increasingly reported abuse"--Jeffreys (2007).

Feminists and Feminist Organisations have largely been unnvolved, unaware and silent  regarding the frame work of  and issues of violence within the "free world" millitaries.  

And in the U.S. it became part of the feminist discussion only after hearing about Lackland  Scandal. In which one of the instructors is charged with having sexual contact with 10 women, including sodomy and rape.Another, Staff Sgt. Peter Vega-Maldonado, admitted in a plea bargain to having sex with one woman. His punishment is 90 days in jail, 30 days of hard labor, reduction in rank and forfeiture of $500 a month in pay for four months. He will be forced to leave the Air Force but without a bad-conduct discharge.After striking this deal with prosecutors, Vega testified that he actually had improper contact with 10 trainees. He is not immune to further prosecution, but his admission of guilt cannot be used against him in future procedures. Each victim will have to come forward, and the prosecution will have to start from scratch....

This became the impetus for many feminist organisations to advocate for change and awareness of this issue. Currently  several feminist organizations support and lobby for the bipartisan legislation started last fall that would create a path to justice for service men and women who are victims of rape or sexual assault. H.R. 3435, the Sexual Assault Training Oversight and Prevention Act (STOP Act), has 125 co-sponsors. "It would take these cases out of the normal chain of command and place the jurisdiction, still within the military, in the hands of an impartial office staffed by experts -- both military and civilian."

Feminism criticizes the common view of rape as simply a regrettable byproduct of wartime social breakdown and lack of military discipline (as well as of naturally aggressive male sexuality), contending that, in fact, rape is a routine element of military strategy, aimed at undermining the will, morale, cohesion, and self-conception of the enemy population. And during wartime, "women are those who most hold the families and communities together... Their physical and emotional destruction aims at destroying social and cultural stability …. in many cultures [this] embodies the nation as a whole …. The rape of women of a community, culture, or nation can be regarded … as a symbolic rape of the body of that community. " --Seifert (1996)

It is thus not surprising that rape in war often involves heightened sadism, as well as additional abuses such as forcing men to watch the rape of their wives or daughters and forcing women to engage in sex with their own sons, brothers, or other family members. In these and other cases, according to MacKinnon, the rape of female civilians is often “a humiliation rite for the men on the other side who cannot (in masculinity's terms) ‘protect’ their women. Many of these acts make women's bodies into a medium of men's expression, the means through which one group of men says what it wants to say to another” (2006)

Because rape in war frequently seeks to undermine and destroy bonds of family, community, and culture, there are important points of connection between rape in war and genocidal rape. Genocide is "the attempt to destroy a racial, ethnic, religious, or national group as such, in whole or in part, by committing any of a number of acts against the group's members; the acts include not only killing, but also causing serious bodily or mental harm, creating conditions of life intended to destroy the group physically, and imposing restrictions intended to prevent births within the group. When such acts are committed with genocidal intent, the victim is not only the individual targeted, but the group itself."

Genocidal rape has been recognized and condemned by both the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda (ICTR) and the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) ---Askin (2003).

In Rwanda, theinterahamwe raped hundreds of thousands of women and girls belonging to the Tutsi ethnic group, as part of an effort to exterminate the Tutsi people entirely. MacKinnon describes the genocidal rape of Muslim and Croatian women in Bosnia-Herzegovina as

"ethnic rape as an official policy of war in a genocidal campaign for political control …. It is specifically rape under orders …. It is also rape unto death, rape as massacre, rape to kill and to make the victims wish they were dead. It is rape as an instrument of forced exile, rape to make you leave your home and never want to go back …. It is rape to drive a wedge through a community, to shatter a society, to destroy a people."(2006)

The Serbian mass rape campaign was distinguished not only by its extraordinary brutality and notorious “rape camps,” but also by the systematic forced impregnation of Muslim and Croatian women and girls. The aim was to claim and colonize the women's bodies reproductively as well as sexually, while increasing the population of children identified as Serb: “Croatian and Muslim women [were] being raped, and then denied abortions, to help make a Serbian state by making what the perpetrators imagine[d] as Serb babies” ----MacKinnon (2006)


"in such forced impregnation, the soldiers' (and their commanders') hope is to “create a baby (a son) who will infiltrate, undermine, or destroy the mother's group"...The resulting children are in fact "seen by the maternal community as children of the enemy … a sort of nascent fifth column within an already victimized community”  and are thus often stigmatized, mistreated, or abandoned. Goodhart argues that the rapist-fathers have violated the rights not only of the women they rape, but also of the children thereby produced... "The rapists are guilty of wrongful procreation, a deliberate, malicious, and sadistic use of procreative power with the intent of creating a child who is unlikely to be able to enjoy his or her human rights."

Rape is used as an instrument of genocide because it is extremely effective in doing what genocides do: destroying not only individual group members, but “that aspect of the group whole that is more than the sum of its individual parts … the substance and glue of community that lives on when individual members die” MacKinnon (2006)

"sexual atrocities can reasonably produce revulsion to the identity that marked the person for the intimate violation, making the raped want to abandon who they are forever. When the shared identity for which one is raped is ruined, shattered in oneself and relationally between oneself and others, the group quality of the group so defined is destroyed."

Smith underlines this point, and its special applicability to genocidal contexts, observing that “in my experience as a rape crisis counselor, every Native survivor I ever counseled said to me at one point, ‘I wish I was no longer Indian’” (2005)

In 2001 the ICTY found three Serbian soldiers guilty of rape as a crime against humanity.  The ICTY judgment marked international humanitarian law's first official recognition of rape as a crime against humanity.  "The axiological foundation of the crime against humanity … lies in a conception of a fundamental trauma to a social body, which consists of the denial of the humanity of others. This model of rape as a crime against humanity therefore involves not only a physical and psychic trauma to the subject but also a symbolic trauma to “humanity.” -- Campbell(2003)

The ICTY verdict thus conveyed a judgment that the Serbian perpetrators of mass rape, in addition to violating their individual victims and damaging the cultural and religious groups to which those victims belonged, also insulted and injured humanity as such.

Men Get Raped More Than Women?   Get REAL!!!!!!

Rape is a gendered crime, this is the very reason it is repeatedly used as a tool for misogynists and the cute nicknames many of them give themselves to use against the Feminist Movement and Women's rights.  

If one must employ blatant lies, which is what statements like more men than women are, or portend to be "statistical" truths when NO REPUTABLE STUDY CONFIRMS THEM, AND WHEN THEY CONTAIN NO EMPIRICAL DATA... and when faced with 
studies which contain  empirical data, which has been repeated, peer reviewed and published within accepted scholarly journals  which refute their findings they allege a "feminist conspiracy"   it  begs one to wonder if they must use  lies and conspiracy theories to prove their "point" do they actually have a point? If one must use lies and conspiracy as "evidence" or "facts" it lends to credence that they have no actual truthful evidence or facts.  

91% of rape victims are female, while almost 99% of perpetrators are male (Greenfield 1997)

U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics states that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male, and 99% of rapists are male. 2006

 According to United States Department of Justice document Criminal Victimization in the United States, there were overall 191,670 victims of rape or sexual assault reported in 2005. 1 of 6 U.S. women and 1 of 33 U.S. men have experienced an attempted or completed rape.

Bureau of Justice Statistics, 38% of victims were raped by a friend or acquaintance, 28% by "an intimate" and 7% by another relative, and 26% were committed by a stranger to the victim. About four out of ten sexual assaults take place at the victim's own home.[

 Drug use, especially alcohol, is frequently involved in rape. In 47% of rapes, both the victim and the perpetrator had been drinking. In 17%, only the perpetrator had been. 7% of the time, only the victim had been drinking. Rapes where neither the victim nor the perpetrator had been drinking were 29% of all rapes

According to a statistical average over the past 5 years, about 60% of all rapes or sexual assaults in the United States are never reported to the authorities

As well as the large number of rapes that go unreported, only 25% of reported rapes result in arrest.

In some jurisdictions as many as 95% of all rape kits go untested.

1 in 3 Native American women have been raped

If you serve in the U.S. military and you rape or sexually assault a fellow service member, chances are you won't be punished. In fact, you have an estimated 86.5% chance of keeping your crime a secret and a 92% chance of avoiding a court-martial.

"statistics illustrate an ongoing epidemic of rape and sexual assault in the military
19,000 incidents just in 2010"  ---Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta   

Given only the things mentioned in this singular post, I believe it shows that  both Feminist theory and action have been and remain a largely positive force for justice, equality, and humanity. I don't think one could argue that these issues clearly show that feminism is as needed now as it was in its conception.  So when I am asked "Is feminism  really still doing good things for society" I answer honestly with a passionate and unbridled YES! 

I find the notion that feminism is now nothing more than "belittling and hurting the male gender" disgusting in its ignorance and in its attempt to dismiss feminism through blatant misinformation.


* All sub-divisions of Feminism are not mentioned. Groups chosen were done so because they have extensive publications in relation to their theory and its relationship to various forms of crime, in particular crimes classified as gender-ed  or looks at effect of gender on all crimes. 

Rape Statistics Found Here










Vivagalore Vivagalore
31-35, F
16 Responses Jan 17, 2013

I have posted briefly on this subject myself but this is a phenomenal post well done.

I learned so much reading this. I always knew there were different sides and views to feminism but this let me really look into each division more fully. When the mra/anti fem crowd go on and on about ALL feminists thinking, feeling or doing things... I cringe because clearly they have no clue. No one can say that ALL people in any group are of one mindset. It just isn't realistic and makes the person saying it look very uninformed.

Feminism is such a diverse spectrum, that some flavours of feminism are even pretty much mortal enemies. ;)
TERLF (Trans Exclusionary Radical Lesbian Feminism) is almost the exact opposite of sex-positive moderate trans/queer feminism and has much more in common with the MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) movement than with most types of feminism.
Both TERLF and MGTOW preach sex-segregation, but TERLFs want to lock up all male-born and intersex people up in penal colonies, while MGTOW seek expension of the sex industry as the shadow of their segregated patriarchy... or they kinda want to substitude all "non-males" for fembots and incubator machines, yes, i am not making this up.

These topics are what I am now reading about and doing a lot of research on my own about and you're totally right......Some branches are totally opposed to what others support! I have also read about "Fembots" too!!! :D

If you notice the Mrantis never source their claims about feminism, they don't even properly cite their "favorite quotes from feminists"; there is a reason for this, it's because their claims are fictional.

Of course feminism isn't perfect. And some feminists are "bad people" however, the MRAntis go out of their way to misrepresent and manipulate the truth about feminism because it's the only way they can mask their misogyny and sexism.

Knives, I follow links to see what the back story or whole story to things are and all I have ever found them offering are more hate stories on other small hate sites around the web written by other off the wall extremists, totally unknown to me...whereas the feminists always offer up links to informative sites from very credible mainstream sources.

Nothing is perfect so feminism will never be that but it can remain a full force in improving things for people in general and it will. It can only become stronger with the likes of the mra folks foaming at the mouth with hate because their poor ability to communicate anything other then lies and unprovoked hatred encourages others to do research and that is where the truth comes out.

I have read things on a some very radical feminists that I don't agree with but they represent a small number of feminists, overall. This is very similar to the ep brand of mra when compared to a differing branch like Good Men. The key difference in this is that feminists see and readily admit to the difference where as certain mra folks are alarmists and constantly say ALL fems think or believe one fiction or another. That is unrealistic and kills off any credibility they might have on any other topic.

The biggest lie they tell is the one they try to sell each other and themselves about feminism being at the root of all their problems. If they would just look they'd see their problems are in their own ignorance and inability to accept responsibility for it....

I agree sierra. That one, obviously ignorant, anti-feminist wrote:

"As for those femenist women, they hate men, and hate women who loves men."

This is the ridiculous nonsense that so many of them have bought into.

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Isn't it strange how lowridergirl has done a complete 180 and is now in favor of everything she was against in the past, is now against everything she was previously in favor of, has blocked everyone she was friends with, and is friends with everyone she didn't like before? I think her account has been hijacked by ******* or she has a screw that is very, very loose. Maybe quite a few.

It's almost like a cult, right? ;)

I am starting to think they are all nuts.

Lots of good information there. I'd also like to put in a plug for the new book RAPE IS RAPE by Jody Raphael (Lawrence Hill Books, 2013). See http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Need-To-Say-Rape-Is-Always-Wrong/3589922

A couple of years after I graduated from college a female friend of mine told me that she'd been raped by someone else that I knew. That was the first time I became aware of the problem of acquaintance rape, or "date rape." I knew right from the start that rape is rape, even if it happens in a situation where consensual sex might have been a possibility. The problem is proving that the sex was nonconsensual, and overcoming the prejudices of the rape denying community.

Dear participants in this thread. I have obviously offended many of you. That was not my intention and for that I apologize. As I told Dente on my Whiteboard, I am NOT an anti-feminist. Neither am I a feminist. I am a 61 year old grandfather, father, and spouse.

I joined this discussion because I strongly oppose rape; I do not feel that our justice system treats rape victims empathetically and respectfully; our society does not take rape seriously; and I hoped I could add a neutral perspective to this discussion. I see I was not wanted; my comments were not welcomed or accepted; and some of you rejected everything I said and question I asked. I was attacked both here and on my white board by Dente. The purpose here was not to oppose rape in a helpful way, but to advance Feminism. Fine. That is Dente's right.

There are men who are not and have never been rapists nor are they tolerant of rape or rapists. Many of us have and are willing to put ourselves at risk to prevent or stop rape. I personally stopped two separate attempted violent rapes in progress that took place on the street where I lived many years ago. One of the victims was my elderly friend and next door neighbor. However, much of the approach to me and to my perspective that I have witnessed here is counter to the best interests of the cause for ending rape because it alienates people like me.

After seven months of supporting my family while unemployed, I just got back to work last week. I do not have the time, nor do I have the energy to debate Dente or anyone else point by point. Please feel free to reject my perspective and my argument but in doing so, you are rejecting the majority of ethical, moral, middle-class American men who believe as I believe and would like to see an end to rape. So be it. I wish you all well. I welcome contact and civil discussion by any of you on any topic. Thank you and good luck to you all.

Correction : " The purpose here was not to oppose rape in a helpful way, but to advance Feminism. Fine. That is Dente's right."

As stated to you several times, the purpose of this story was to present the feminist views on crime especially rape.

I'm sorry you felt attacked. I felt offended that you refused to follow a simple respectful request made by me especially since it was the first thing I wrote.

A point by point manner is the only way to debate on the internet.

Congratulations on your new found employment.

@lick - First off, congrats on your employment. That's great and I'm sure it was frustrating for you the past few months.

I must say, I don't know that you were attacked here.... I see Dente responding to your points clearly and I see frustration from some posters because one of your primary points was essentially that women could prevent rape, but must basically alter their lives or live in a shell of fear to do so.

I never see men warned about what they should wear, how they should act or questioned on how many drinks they've had. And that is part of the point: women should not have to live in fear of judgement and/or sexual assault because they go to a club, a party, or have to walk outside at night.

You did state you didn't read all of Dente's write up; as this was a specific request by her, it was rude of you to start commenting without having finished what she took the time to share. I'm just saying....she had some valid points about that.

Lastly, I would be most interested in any court cases in which a man was prosecuted after a night of sex that neither the man nor women can remember, but then the woman accuses him of rape. "Men have been convicted and sent to prison in this exact circumstance." You have not provided this information.

In any case, to deny that there is a rape culture (I provided a description in a prior comment) is one of the most dangerous lines of thinking of all, and proves that we have so far to go in assigning responsibility solely where it belongs: on the rapist.

the reality of it is this: rape is a sick thing to have to deal with male or female, the truth of it this no one is ever the same. look at the penn state incident, all those boys from the time they were there in that program till he was let go in 2001/2002 and this went on from 1998 till 2002 not to mention he was still allowed on campus. look how it devasted a entire town a entire school. rape victims have their life taken away from them and are left with scars for the rest of their lives.

So very, very true. Look at all the poor men who were raped by Catholic priests when they were young too. I once saw an interview with a man who was married, and had children, but had been raped by a priest when he was a boy. He was one of the men who later sued the Catholic church. I was crying as he gave the interview. It was so sad. He was crying too, but trying hard to hold back the tears, while he explained what had happened. He said he was deeply traumatized as a result and had struggled with it for years and years while trying to put it out of his mind. He had been an alcoholic, and drug addict, had two failed marriages and so many problems in his life before he finally was able to come forward and talk about what had happened and get some help. It was tragic, but he settled his case and obtained a fairly decent amount of money from the church, got some good counseling, found a good woman he married, and has done his best to move on with his life. Men usually suffer from rape just as much as women do, but they never talk to other men about it because they are too embarrassed. If they did more men might realize how traumatic it is and as a result the ones who don't seem to have much sympathy for women who have been raped might have a better understanding of just how devastating it is and might be more sympathetic and compassionate as a result.


"Men usually suffer from rape just as much as women do, but they never talk to other men about it because they are too embarrassed."
:( Right.

My husband represented a woman for sexual harassment once whose manager had essentially raped her. She was from Venezuela and had a green card to be here. She was working in a factory. Her manager forced her to have sex with him by telling her that if she didn't he would fire her and tell immigration that she should not be here and should be deported. She did not know about sexual harassment and did not know that him firing her and telling immigration that she should not be here would not result in her being deported. She was afraid that she would be, so even though she told him she did not want to have sex with him, and asked him not to do it, when he forced himself on her anyway she did not physically resist him.

She then fell apart emotionally and almost killed herself. She eventually told her friend what had happened. Her friend then told her she should go to the authorities and tell them what had happened because she had been raped. She then did so, but because she did not physically resist her manager when he forced her to have sex with him, the authorities told her it was considered consensual sex and therefore was not considered rape. However they did inform her that she should consult with an attorney because it appeared to be sexual harassment which is what lead her to contact my husband.

Her manager had forced her to have sex with him through undue influence. It was not consensual, but apparently the law says it is because she did not scream and yell and try to physically resist or fight him off. It truly was rape, but the law says it wasn't. I think that is screwed up.

Oh jeez... and this is just the tip of the iceberg, I'd imagine. We really need to support women when this happens...not further their pain by asking them what they were wearing that day, etc. She was incredibly vulnerable; it takes a special type of coward to exploit that.

What a predator that boss was; I hope your husband can help nail this guy....and boy do the laws need adjusting.

That's why I support the use of 'enthusiastic fully informed consent' in defining consensual sex.

He did nail the guy and the company he worked for, but it wasn't easy. They ended up having to pay the woman a lot of money, but she remained very traumatized. Money will never take that away, but in these circumstances it is all that happens.

As I mentioned in response to KRs slamming of "enthusiastic consent" my husband actually gets aroused when I enthusiastically consent to have sex with him after he asks. He says it is so much hotter than a woman saying nothing or just saying yes, OK, sure, and things like that.

I'm so glad he was nailed! Far too often nothing happens as women are scared and embarrassed to step forward (who can blame them). All the money in the world won't fix it, but I hope she was able to get ongoing counseling and support. I'm glad that one had a more positive ending than most.

Money can buy therapy though... I know therapy can be needed a lot after such events.
Together with law reform, I'd like to see mental healthcare reform too... I was in the system and rape culture is in hospitals too.
I had a few bad therapists and 1 good one, in the 2 years after my own rape... if we'd have more good therapists, we could help victims of abuse a bit better.

Therapists need to learn that rape isn't "someone crossing your limits" (true story: 1 therapist (even a woman!) talked about me GUARDING MY LIMITS BETTER instead of acknowledging someone harmed me! As if it was my fault, that I "let him do that", I felt that way already even without people blaming me even more) too.
Punishing the rapist is 1 thing, taking care of the damaged victim another and that's at least as important.

There are some really crap therapists out there. Also some really good ones.

I would bet anything that Elam was a crappy therapist and that is why he gave it up and is now trying to make a living off AVfM.

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The last picture made me cry. How sad.

What ****** parents.

**** you mom and dad for making your daughter feel that way.

Sorry for the language......just how I feel.

"sex that is undeniably forced is, nevertheless, not rape if the victim “consented” to it; and … sex that is undeniably nonconsensual is, nevertheless, not rape if there was no force used to obtain it." -- Circuit Court (2006)"

Wow. How can we still have laws written this way? Makes me think of this case from earlier this month.


"Furthermore, many rape survivors are damaged specifically in their sexuality, facing difficulties in their sexual relationships in the months and years following the rape."

I would go out on a limb and say "and their lives following the rape" as well as future partners of rape victims.

Amazing post. Thank you for sharing it. I'm still making my way through it and I hope you don't mind if I comment again. Just my first thoughts after reading it.

Rape is a serious problem. But the biggest issue is that there are both women and men that don't take it seriously. There are "I Want To Be Raped" groups and stories right here on EP. There are well documented stories of women who have used rape protection laws to their advantage in order to extort something out of men. I don't know what the numbers are. I don't know the statistics.

I do know that I've been around women who were scantily clad and I was never tempted to rape any of them.

Rape is an act of aggression and violence. Men are not animals, neither are women. Rapists become animals. Anyone, male or female, who abuses rape laws is, in my opinion, an animal.

Why rape is a feminist issue is beyond me. Rape should be something we all work to stop.


I agree with you and good men do. I have known men who were not feminists or "manginas" as some of the ahole MRAs call kind hearted men who like and protect women, and who hate men who treat them badly. These men wanted to beat the living **** out of a man who they found out had raped a woman near the town where I live. A couple of them said they wanted to tie him down and stick a baseball bat up his *** so he would know what its like to be raped. I applauded them for hating a rapist as much as women do.

Stellar post....wow. What great information you've shared here! Recent stories and comments on EP have shown how far we need to go in regards to a segment of the population silently passing judgement on rape victims. The "well... she was at a party and had a bunch of drinks" attitude that not so silently gives a pass to the rapist. The "it wasn't really rape" if she wore a short skirt or kissed him before saying no.

I like what Scar said here in the comments: "Do you ever wear shorts? Or a shirt with some unbuttoned buttons? Even take your shirt off in public during a heatwave? Do you fear you'll get raped when you do that? I don't think so."


The sign, "Best rape prevention tip: Don't rape" says it all. Anyone who adds a "but..." after that sentence needs to zip it. (Literally and figuratively)

Wow, Dente... loved that! Very enlightening.... I wasn't aware of the minute differences in the views on rape in different schools of feminism.

I must say, if you really want to get things in perspective, you must look at other cultures and other communities in the world. The paragraph about atrocities against black people was absolutely horrifying. Imagine getting a female slave pregnant so you can have more slaves --- the slave-baby is going to be YOUR son/daughter, for heaven's sake!! How can anybody be so cruel!? And imagine forcing two human-beings to have sex as a 'breeding strategy'. Eurgh!
From the very bottom of my heart, I pity the women who were considered 'unrapeable'. OMG... I'm so glad I was born after all that.... I've always been protective of my freedom, but now I value it even more.

I've had some education about 'rape as a property crime' during wars, feuds etc. so that but wasn't really new to me. Sexual abuse of refugee women is another ghastly crime - one that I am knowledgeable about.

"Imagine getting a female slave pregnant so you can have more slaves --- the slave-baby is going to be YOUR son/daughter, for heaven's sake!! How can anybody be so cruel!?"

Like Thomas Jefferson did.

In cultures where women who aren't virgins are considered unmarriable I have heard about men raping women who didn't want to be with them as a punishment for the women feeling that way. They would rape the woman who they wanted, but who wasn't interesting in being with them, as a pay back to ruin her life knowing that after she had been raped, and was therefore no longer a virgin, no man would want to marry her. It is also well known that during wars men who would win a battle would often then go to the village where the men they had beaten lived and rape women and pillage the property there because the women were considered the equivalent of the men's property also so raping them was the equivalent of damaging or robbing the men's property.

Thank God for human rights.... I completely understand what you're saying about men raping women to ruin them. Many jilted lovers also throw acid on women for the same reason - once she is ugly and disfigured, no one will marry her.

BTW, I just remembered something... I had always thought that in traditional societies, social status and immovable property flow patrilineally i.e. from father to son. In the case of white slave-owners raping black female slaves, however, the status of the baby slave seems to depend on the mother (not the rich father). I'm sure the slaves never inherited their master's (father's) property.

It still grosses me out to think of it. I can't get it out of my head... Did people like Thomas Jefferson never notice a family resemblance while whipping their slaves? How did they ever live with their conscience? What about their legitimate children? How could they ever respect their father, knowing that their brothers and sisters were out plucking cotton while they tried on new dresses or went out hunting!!

Okay. So I read most of but not all of the above. No I did not visit all of the links. However, my question is this. What is relevant to me regarding a large number of disparate quotations regarding feminist theory, selected by an avowed feminist.As a man, I believe that rape is one of the worst crimes there are; that no means no; that rape is an act of violence, not sex. Additionally, I believe in equal rights and justice for all, regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation, or any other factor. I do NOT believe in preferential treatment, nor do I believe in "affirmative action" except where bias and discrimination are shown to be taking place now, not 30 years ago.All of that said, I do not accept much of feminist theory, much of which is conflicting and inconsistent, as demonstrated above.Why is this relevant to me? What is it you want? What are you attempting to communicate by this article? Those things are not at all made clear here.To address one point made here -- Certainly a form of dress or fashion never can be an excuse for rape. A woman who chooses to dress in a provocative manner cannot be said to be "asking to be raped;" However, we must be held responsible for our own actions. If I walk down a street in a poor, crime-ridden neighborhood with a large wad of cash in my hand and no visible means of protecting myself, I almost certainly will be attacked and robbed. I am not "asking" to be robbed, but my action is foolish in the extreme because I should have the sense to know that there are bad people who do bad things and that acting in certain ways put me at risk. A human of any gender must be street-smart and aware. In certain circumstances, dressing provocatively and acting provocatively will put a woman at risk of assault. No, she is not "asking for it," nor is she giving any form of permission. But her actions may put her at risk. That is an unfortunate fact of life and never will change.<br />
<br />
What about "Date Rape?" Let's say there are two young college students at a party in a frat house. Each is very attracted to the other. Both are highly intoxicated to the point of being incapable of good decision making. As the evening progresses, they both act more and more sexually provocative, flirting heavily. They end up alone in a private room. The next morning, both awake with horrible hangovers and remember nothing of the latter part of the night before. The woman discovers that sexual intercourse took place. Did a rape occur? Should the woman choose to allege rape, even though she cannot recall whether or not she gave consent, once she makes the allegation, and a rape kit shows that intercourse took place, there is a presumption on the part of law enforcement today, that a rape did occur. Is that right? Certainly, if at any point she said no or indicated that she did not want to have sex, the man has an obligation to stop. But what if neither recall what actually took place or if consent was given? Men have been convicted and sent to prison in this exact circumstance. Is that right?I would like to hear you view of this, your answers to the questions I pose above, rather than a bunch of Feminist Studies claptrap. Perhaps then the discussion might become more meaningful.

I hope you live in a place with hot summers, just for the sake of this post. :-p
Do you ever wear shorts? Or a shirt with some unbuttoned buttons? Even take your shirt off in public during a heatwave? Do you fear you'll get raped when you do that?
I don't think so.

That's the point here... a woman can walk in a bad neighbourhood with a hand full of Benjamin Franklins (If I remember it correctly, that's the 100 dollar bill right?) too and get robbed, little difference there.
When you wear shorts and sport some man-cleavage (seriously, I think some unbuttoned buttons showing some chesthair is sexier than girlcleavage) there's nobody saying you're acting "recklessly and not protecting yourself".
When a girl does the same thing, she gets accused of the above and a man doesn't, simple as that.

Oh and something I wanted to say for a long time about the whole "it's not a big dealh" crap of anti-feminists: for us women it can be a big deal!
Have you ever been penetrated without your body being ready for that boys? If so, you would know that's a lot more invasive than 'envelopement', I imagine.
It is a big deal to most of us women, it might not be a big to you and your penisses, but it can be for us, the ones being penetrated, keep that in mind please.

Lickity....in regards to affirmative action, the fact that society has attempted to make adjustments for absolute wrongs in the past does not mean those attempts are no longer relevant. The amendments made in certain circumstances do not replace the fact that a cog was thrown into the system to begin with.

scarcollection -- you are attempting to interpret into my comments things I very carefully and clearly was careful to make clear. Nothing justifies rape. Nothing mitigates it or makes it less of a horrible crime. I condemn rape. PERIOD. However, what I said is none the less valid and a fact of life. That does not make it right, excusable, or justifiable and I am in no way attempting to say that it does. BUT, people must take personal responsibility for exercising good judgment and when they foolishly place themselves at risk. As a person who was a sailor and visited many crime-ridden ports around the world, many sailors were assaulted and robbed, some killed, because they failed to act responsibly. It is no different in the case of rape. Certainly women are at far great risk of being raped than are men. There are far too many men in this world who are filthy animals and serve nothing better than to be put down like a rabid animal.

At the same time, if you dress provocatively and act provocatively while drinking, while separating yourself from your friends and the mutual protection and safety they offer, you are placing yourself at risk. Its a simple and unfortunate fact.

Redrubies -- so under what you just described, should affirmative action last perpetually and forever without end? I think not. Whether we are talking race, gender, or any other "special category," If people in that category are being actively discriminated against, then affirmative action, and legal action under the law, is appropriate and necessary. If it happened ten, twenty, thirty or more years ago, no. It is no longer appropriate or necessary, and takes on the character of being reverse discimination. I do not accept bias and discrimination against any minority as a human, a manager, or an employer. I will not accept reverse bias because someone before me did wrong. One wrong does not justify another. Two wrongs do not make a right. That is where many of us who do not consider ourselves feminists have problems. Too many feminists see rape where rape does not exist; use rape as a weapon against men who did not commit rape; refuse to accept that there is such a thing as personal responsibility and foolish behavior that puts a person at risk; and seeks perpetual recompense for past wrongs done by someone else, to someone else.

If what you want is equal rights, equal opportunities, and equal justice, I will stand with you and support you. If you are seeking advantage and preference, I will oppose you. Its that simple.

"At the same time, if you dress provocatively and act provocatively while drinking, while separating yourself from your friends and the mutual protection and safety they offer, you are placing yourself at risk. Its a simple and unfortunate fact."

The above statement contradicts your other words in your post.
I understand it can frustrate you because you clearly stated there is no excuse for rape and rape is wrong and rapists deserve cruel punishment.
But the quoted paragraph really is a classic piece of rape culture... if you want to put down rapists like a rabid animal (not my words), we have to be able to know who the rapists are and what rape is.
Rape culture is there to blur those lines so more men can get away with it, because they feel entitled to sex, consensual or not.

I'm not against you, I agree that rape is aweful and needs to be punished and prevented (to be clear: by educating men first, not women first) too, but I am against statements that help rape culture exists or grow.
Sorry if this pissed you off, I really hope you will understand one day... if you can wear shorts, have plenty of drinks, flirt a little and be somewhere alone, I think I woman should be able to do that too, without having to be afraid of rape.
The key really is at the men who rape, not the women who are potential victims.

If you truly want to prevent rape because you care for potential victims: talk to the guys who make rape jokes or objectify women.
Because really, in my opinion it takes a man with balls to stand up to his peers and say "dude, she's not some 'hot piece of ***', she's someone's daughter, sister or maybe even mother".
Who's got the balls boys, anyone man enough? (sorry to gender this, I was under the impression stuff like this is one of those few things to make men respond).

@lickitysplit - I don't disagree that the application of affirmative action at times can cause one to scratch their heads; however, without affirmative action some stereotypes would never be broken. For instance: for a very long time "blacks" were considered less intelligent and capable than "whites". Affirmative action gave black individuals the chance to prove themselves every single bit as intelligent and capable. This type of stereotype is beginning to change and will continue to do so with the help of affirmative action.

Also, diversity is valuable in schools and the workplace, and won't always occur if left to chance. Racism is still unfortunately very apparent.

I believe affirmative action helps create an equal opportunity for everyone by helping those individuals with a disadvantage. Minority students, often start out at a disadvantage in their college or job application process. They are more likely to come from lower income families than their "white" counterparts, and some inner city youths must also live their childhoods in high crime, drug-infested areas that are very difficult to get out of.

In any case, I don't wish to hijack a very important story on rape and turn it into a side discussion about affirmative action. Perhaps if you feel strongly you might like to write a separate story about it, as I'm sure there would be many interesting views.

In regards to your comments on rape and blame, I second every word of what Scar said above me. I think it takes guts to stand up to someone who speaks and jokes of women in a derogatory manner.

Hmmmm.....I don't have an option to like your response here so I will do it manually! *likes*

@ lickity:
Foolishness does not=consent.
Anyone who's been a victim of a con artist ought to know that well.
...Someone who's intoxicated cannot legally give consent for intercourse. Getting someone hammered in order to get into their pants is therefore a bad idea.
As far as individual cases go, the legal system sucks.
I fully acknowledge people get sent up regularly when they aren't guilty of all sorts of things, for reasons that have more to do with the district attorney fattening his or her conviction rate than anything else. Certainly not feminism.
Regarding false reporting of rape...
Kanin's figure of 41% of reports being false have been taken to heart by MRA's but that study's methodology was seriously flawed.
http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/the_voice_vol_3_no_1_2009.pdf (page 2)
"...when more methodologically rigorous research { than Kanin's } has been conducted,estimates for the percentage of false reports begin to converge
around 2-8%."

At lick my point for posting is VERY clear. Maybe if you read the entire article it will be more clear to you. I also respectfully asked that commemtors on this article read the piece in it's entirety before commenting, I am wondering why you not only didn't follow that request but boasted about not following it and then proceeded to make several comments. I personally found that disrespectful. I would request that in the future you be more respectful to both myself and to the commentors that took the time to read the article.

"What is relevant to me regarding a large number of disparate quotations regarding feminist theory, selected by an avowed feminist."

As a feminist am I not allowed to, or in a place of some authority to, explain the various views of feminism on rape and crime?  Are only the anti's who hold no formal understanding the only ones allowed to define feminism and to espouse feminist views?
Do you actively support sophistic analysis in every instance or only when dealing with theory you are oppositional to?

Feminism is not a monolithic movement, however your claim of the quotes being disparate is far reaching.

Your views  of rape are very apologistic in nature and more so are simply dangerous.

Different rapists commit rape for different reasons, and any one rapist may rape for different reasons at different times (Muehlenhard, Danoff-Burg, and Powch 1996). Thus, no one theory can explain all rapes. However, many cultural factors seem to contribute to rape.

In a study by Burt 1991 the most Commonly held myths which contribute to date and marital rape are:
1. A man must have sex to prove his masculinity     

2. When women say no to sex, they really mean yes, so men should ignore women's refusals

3. If a woman engages in kissing or petting, she is obligated to engage in sexual intercourse

4. What goes on between a husband and a wife is no one else's business

5. The man should be head of the household.

"Studies in several countries have suggested that rigid gender roles and promotion of an ideology of male toughness are related to violence against women" see Heise et al. 1994 and Sanday 1981.

In the Neapolitan study from 1997 "Traditional gender roles prescribing female submission and male dominance are linked to rape. In Australia, Germany, and Japan, rates of violent sexual offenses were related to national levels of dominant masculinity."

I think we have to be honest in that characteristics of the culture and gender role socialization, do not explain why most men do not rape, why some women rape men, or why rape occurs in gay and lesbian relationships in which both people have experienced similar gender role socialization. Therefore, Individual differences are also important. Some people hold beliefs justifying rape more strongly than others. Men who rape tend to believe more strongly in myths about rape, and they are more likely to engage in fantasies about coercive sex (Drieschner and Lange 1999). Compared with other men, rapists drink more heavily, begin having sexual experiences earlier, and are more likely to have been physically or sexually abused as children (Berkowitz 1992; Ullman; Karabatsos; and Koss 1990).

In Holtlings critical review of 52 studies conducted over 15 years that the only consistent factor with being a victim of sexual abuse was having witnessed parental violence as a child  btw this  finding extended to the assailants as well.

A study by Pitmann &amp; Thomas found no specific behavioral characteristics made certain women more susceptible to violence (including sexual assault)

The Abel 2001 study showed most reports indicate that on a global level women with lower socioeconomic status are more often victims of rape.

I gues since universally women living in poverty are more likely to be subject to rape, women should protect themselves by not being so stupid as be poor. 

Date rape is a "non-domestic rape committed by someone who knows the victim." This constitutes the vast majority of reported rapes, 80-85% percent of all reported rapes. 

College and University campuses are prime locations for date rape, A college survey conducted by the United States' National Victim Center reported that "one in four college women have been raped or experienced attempted rape." This report indicates that young women are at considerable risk of becoming a victim of date rape while in college.

I guess women should stop attending college as well.

57% of rapes occur on dates.
I guess women should not go on dates.

Over half of all rapes and sexual assaults take place in the victim’s home or within one mile of home: 40 percent occur in the home, 20 percent occur in a friend, relative, or neighbor’s home (while 1 in 12 occur in a parking garage.)

I guess women should be homeless and stay out of the homes of neighbours and relatives as well?

Scarcollection -- No it does not in any way contradict what I said. We are talking two separate and distinct things here. One is assigning responsibility for rape. TOTAL, COMPLETE, FULL responsibility for any rape, whether by force or coercion belongs to the rapist, not the victim. There is NO EXCUSE for rape!!!

The other thing to which I am referring is the responsibility of the individual to act appropriately and to protect them self from a known risk. Both responsibilities can exist simultaneously and are non-congruent, non-intersecting sets.

Let me put this another way. A black guy walks into a biker bar known as a hangout for White Supremacists. He yells, "F... you, you white racist @ssholes." Chances are extremely high he ends up shot or beaten to death. Who is responsible for the murder? The people who shot or beat him to death because there is no justification for anyone to murder an unarmed man, regardless of where he was or what he said. However, the man himself knowingly acted in a provocative way he knew put his life and wellbeing at severe risk of injury or death. He CHOSE to act in a way that he knew put him at risk. That is foolish.

Another thing about Feminists that drive many of us, who might otherwise be your allies crazy, are these claims of a "rape culture" and attempts to tie rape to all males and to a patrimonious culture and so forth. THERE IS NO RAPE CULTURE. I can honestly say that I have never known any many for whom I had any respect whatsoever who made light of rape or who in any way condones rape. There is no culture created to provide exoneration of rape and rapists. The vast majority of men in Western or American culture condemn rape and condemn rapists. We have mothers, aunts, sisters, and wives we want protected from rape and rapists. Responsible men in todays society are not looking for excuses to rape, do not believe in any of this rape culture BS about which you talk, do not condone rape, and feel no entitlement to sex, most especially non-consensual sex. Whoever has taught you this is either deluded or is doing you an intentional disservice to obtain your political support.

Redrubies -- I suspect that you and I never can reach agreement on affirmative action. I accept that there are times and places where it is appropriate but those times and places are rapidly diminishing. The fact of the matter is that in most of industry, and certainly within the industries where I have worked, women receive significant preferences in hiring and advancement, sometimes to their own detriment, by being advanced more rapidly then they can develop the skills needed to succeed at the next organizational level. In an environment where significantly more women are being admitted to college than men, should gender based affirmative action continue to be applied to college admissions? The disparity is now almost seven percent more women than men are being admitted into college. When Title IX was passed, it was almost exactly the reverse with seven percent more men than women. The playing field needs to be fair and equitable and reverse discrimination cannot be justified by past discrimination.

hylierandom said very succinctly and clearly the point I am making -- foolishness does NOT equal consent BUT foolishness can have undesirable consequences. I also agree that getting someone hammered in order to get into their pants is a bad idea and in fact is rape if sex takes place. BUT what if both the man and the woman get hammered, neither with the INTENT to take advantage of the other, as I described earlier. If the woman does not say no or give indication that she does not want sex, and in fact both act in the heat of passion combined with alcohol and sex does takes place -- is it rape? Determining this answer may be like walking the sharp edge of a razor blade with the distinction one way or the other so narrow as to defy definition.

Personally, I would not believe that 41 percent, or even 31, or 21 percent of rape reports are false. I suspect that number of knowingly false rape reports is probably very low, certainly in the single digits at most. But I would also suspect that another small percentage of accused rapes are not even entirely clear in the mind of the female victim when alcohol or drugs have been involved. In other words, I tend to believe the 2 to 8 percent figure is more realistic for false accusations of rape. I also believe that a very large number of rapes are not even reported because of the criminal justice systems adversarial treatment of rape victims.

@lickity - You stated "hylierandom said very succinctly and clearly the point I am making -- foolishness does NOT equal consent BUT...."

That's the whole point. There IS no "but"....see my earlier comment. There is not a single thing a person does that would "bring on' a rape. The very fact you would add a "but" perpetuates the rape culture you say is non existent.

In a rape culture, people are surrounded with images, language, laws, and other everyday phenomena that validate and perpetuate, rape. Rape culture includes jokes, TV, music, advertising, legal jargon, laws, words and imagery, that make violence against women and sexual coercion seem so normal that people believe that rape is inevitable. Rather than viewing the culture of rape as a problem to change, people in a rape culture think about the persistence of rape as “just the way things are.”

Anyone who lives in america and says there is no rape culture is either deliberately blind or doesn't know what rape culture actually is.

DenteAvvelenato -- Perhaps your reason for posting is clear to you. It is not clear to me. The posting of a lot of disparate quotations from Feminist sources proves nothing other than you read and are familiar with your own avowed beliefs. They do not prove those are true or correct.

I was not "boasting," but rather disclosing a fact. I am not interested and there is no requirement for me to waste my time reading an overly long article filled with feminist orthodoxy. I am a quick study. I already have read a lot on the subject, and I felt no need to read it all in excruciating and boring detail.

I have in now been nasty or confrontational, nor have I called anyone names. In fact, much of what I have said has agreed with much of what you profess, but has challenged you and others in the thread around the margins of what is a complex subject. Is it your hope and intent to only preach to those already converted to your fervent religion of feminism? Sorry, but I do have the right to comment, so long as I am respectful and you cannot claim that I am not. This is a serious discussion that is deserving of attention.

To address some of the points you make, you refer to Burt's 1991 "most Commonly held myths." I do not subscribe to a single one of those myths, nor do I personally know of any reasonably educated American man who does. Furthermore, citing a paper that is more than 20 years old within the context of the rapidly changing American society seems pretty meaningless. We are talking Sociology here. The societal myths and viewpoints of 1971 when I was a young man are hardly relevant to what was happening in 1991, which is hardly relevant to what is happening today. You are talking a generational period.

I will have to continue this at a later time as I have a family commitment. I wish you all well and good night.

@ lickity - I am not trying to pick on you (really) but you also state: "The other thing to which I am referring is the responsibility of the individual to act appropriately and to protect them self from a known risk."

Who gets to define what is "appropriate"? If a skirt is one inch above the knee, is that inappropriate? Two inches? Three? Was it inappropriate if a woman had two drinks the night she was raped? Three? Did she smile too much at a man at the bar? Did she dance with him? Did she dance TOO CLOSELY and/or flirt?

Do you see how none of this matters? The only thing that would matter is that a rapist forced himself inside a woman without her consent.

"But what if neither recall what actually took place or if consent was given? Men have been convicted and sent to prison in this exact circumstance. Is that right?"

No it isn't right, but honestly I have never heard of a man being convicted of rape when the woman who claimed he raped her indicated that she woke up in bed with him the next morning and had been so drunk the night before she did not remember having sex with him, or remember if she had consented. I cannot imagine a jury hearing a woman testify to that then finding the man guilty. Now if the woman came to and she had bruises on her body, or a bloody nose, or black eye, and her clothes had obviously been ripped off of her, and her vagina was painful and had lacerations and was bleeding, I don't think it would be difficult to assume that she had not consented and had been raped.

"BUT what if both the man and the woman get hammered, neither with the INTENT to take advantage of the other, as I described earlier. If the woman does not say no or give indication that she does not want sex, and in fact both act in the heat of passion combined with alcohol and sex does takes place -- is it rape?"

No, and as I indicated above I cannot imagine 1) any woman under those circumstances claiming she had been raped, and 2) if she did any authorities believing it and going after the man she had sex with, and 3) if they did, any judge or jury hearing the testimony that this had occurred finding the man guilty.

"But I would also suspect that another small percentage of accused rapes are not even entirely clear in the mind of the female victim when alcohol or drugs have been involved."

I agree that it might not be entirely clear in the mind of the female victim when alcohol or drugs have been involved, and if that is that case it is VERY unlikely that the woman would then go to the authorities and claim she had been raped unless there were circumstances as I described above that would lead her to believe that that is the case, in which case it most likely would not be false rape charges. The women who make false rape charges are usually unethical, deceptive, destructive women who do it to hurt a man they are angry at for some reason, or do it to a wealthy man to try to get his money.

"I also believe that a very large number of rapes are not even reported because of the criminal justice systems adversarial treatment of rape victims."

I agree and this is true for both men and women, and is why the drunken woman under the circumstances you described would be unlikely to claim she had been raped, and if she did would be unlikely to succeed in getting the man she had sex with prosecuted.

"I can honestly say that I have never known any many for whom I had any respect whatsoever who made light of rape or who in any way condones rape. There is no culture created to provide exoneration of rape and rapists. The vast majority of men in Western or American culture condemn rape and condemn rapists. We have mothers, aunts, sisters, and wives we want protected from rape and rapists. Responsible men in todays society are not looking for excuses to rape, do not believe in any of this rape culture BS about which you talk, do not condone rape, and feel no entitlement to sex, most especially non-consensual sex. Whoever has taught you this is either deluded or is doing you an intentional disservice to obtain your political support."

I think that you should go and read this post written by Paul Elam on A Voice for Men, and the comments his minions made. I think what they have written contradicts what you wrote above that I quoted: http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/false-rape-culture/challenging-the-etiology-of-rape/

One other thing . . . I have spoken to women who were victims of date rape. Most of them do not report it to the authorities, it does not involve drugs or alcohol, and this is the way it usually occurs. The woman agrees to go on a date with a man she is attracted to. The man then wants to have sex with her, but she refuses, so he then forces her to do so by raping her.

@ lick if you have a more recent study or a study as current as Burts which refutes the information provided in that study please provide it.

Or better yet address the actual study in a meaningful manner.

It is incredibly disrespectful IMO to comment on a story when you have refused to read it. Especially when I expressly asked people not to do that very thing.

You summarily rejected it because you dismissed it's content as 'boring' and then profess that this subject is of interest to you and is worthy of debate and discussion; that comes off as you actually meaning your opinions on the matter of rape are important. Poor Form. Rude. Nasty. and UNWANTED here.

Respectful and meaningful Communication involves active listening as well as 'talking'... It requires equal and respectful participation from ALL the participants.
The opinion you are forcing upon this post is admittedly uninformed. How can it serve as a catalyst for meaningful and informative communication?

So I admit I find your explanation of your presence here suspect for many reasons...your sex and gender of course are not included in that assessment (as you attempted to accuse me on your w/b)

To clarify this article and it's intent which is clear to the people who weren't too bored to read it is to give the various feminist perspectives especially regarding rape.

It's about highlighting the feminist movement as it actually is instead of some monolith. It's about what actual feminists actually think regarding these issues, hence the quotes, which all dealt with those issues.

It's even a bit about being sick and tired of willfully ignorant, willfully disrespectful and obtusely uniformed MrAnti's repeatedly and frequently espousing sophistic professions and declaring themselves the divine revealers of the truth of feminism. It's an attempt to present the feminist prospective and discuss that. And on the issue of rape and crime, to inform others of what the various feminist views are on the issue.

And sorry white American male (as you pointed out not me) Lick it is ABSOLUTELY NOT YOUR RIGHT to hijack my story with your comments, uninformed critisms and misinformations. IT'S A COURTESY THAT I EXTEND TO YOU.

Privilege is not a right please don't profess it to be.

In the spirit of moving the discussion forward I have to respectfully ask that the focus is on actualities not on analogies and refrain from contrary to fact fallacies.

Most women are not raped in bad neighborhoods. A woman in a bad neighborhood, late at night, in a skimpy/sexy dress is not the same as a black man screaming at racist bikers. The asking for it myth is dangerous to all women, dangerous to all victims of rape, Is a product of rape culture and serves a two fold purpose 1. Control of women by threat of rape 2. Strawmans the actual discussion and finally is rape apologia.

" What about "Date Rape?" Let's say there are two young college students at a party in a frat house. Each is very attracted to the other. Both are highly intoxicated to the point of being incapable of good decision making. As the evening progresses, they both act more and more sexually provocative, flirting heavily. They end up alone in a private room. The next morning, both awake with horrible hangovers and remember nothing of the latter part of the night before. The woman discovers that sexual intercourse took place. Did a rape occur? Should the woman choose to allege rape, even though she cannot recall whether or not she gave consent, once she makes the allegation, and a rape kit shows that intercourse took place, there is a presumption on the part of law enforcement today, that a rape did occur. Is that right? Certainly, if at any point she said no or indicated that she did not want to have sex, the man has an obligation to stop. But what if neither recall what actually took place or if consent was given? Men have been convicted and sent to prison in this exact circumstance."

Please provide a few court cases where this has actually happened. As it stands it's a strawman being used to dismiss legitimate date rape.

Very good points! I look forward to the cases being provided where this scenario actually did occur... I would like to read about them.

Bleh... I'm giving up, I tried. If I'd continue to argue I'd repeat myself over and over again.
Some people just don't understand and that's a core problem, we're trying to explain it to inform people, but when they say "no, that's not true, there is no rape culture", it's pretty much the end of the line.
On EP I sometimes think I should just leave contributors to rape culture alone (like in this discussion), as there are so many people who are (potential) rapists on here (MRA's), but then again: we can't prevent them from raping women either.

I'd almost say: haters gonna hate, rapists gonna rape.
People who don't believe in rape culture seem to be unlikely to change their mind, so why even bother?
No sh*t some feminists turn radical... radical feminists preach direct action instead of these lectures, they might be haters themselves, but at least the Radfems DO SOMETHING.
Al we seem to do is talk.

@scar Yikes. I don't agree. We don't discuss these issues to convert ...merely to add context and hopefully parity. In todays society people interpet silence as agreement and as validity.
Radical feminism is also not about hurting or hating men, it's about dismantling the patriarchy.

I do understand your frustration, don't let them get the best of you!

Ever read a radfem blog? I try to avoid radical feminism, because what I see, they do hate everything male.
Maybe it's time for another subgroup of feminism, haha (nooo! not another one!), because I don't hate men, but I am in favour of doing something.
Even if it's radical, I'm not talking about harming men, but about examples like ignoring men by reasons of 'setting an example (like if there's a male receptionist somewhere, asking to speak to a female, because "I want to be sure I don't get raped over the course of this conversation").
When a lot of women actually would do this in real life, you're giving off a really strong message, it's not fair of course (and I wouldn't do it myself either), but it would at least be doing something.

Hmm, I agree with your "silence is agreement and validity in this society" point, but personally, my goal to be vocal about these things actually is to prevent rape.
Why put the time and effort into something when you know the men who read it will rape anyway or worse: the MRA's that get mad about our words and take that anger to a club where they 'daterape' a girl.

I'm preaching for multiple reasons, but one of them definitely is to prevent men from raping, I'm not converting (they don't have to believe in feminism, they just have to stop harming women), but I do want people to get the message and act on it.
That only potential rapists can truly prevent rape and for the potential rapists at the fringes that they change they change their mind and learn not raping a girl is better.
If only they knew how hot intimacy can be WITH a girl's full active and enthusiastic consent... that's more than f*cking, that can be a whole box of secret sexy tricks.

I'm trying to teach men not to rape and to convince them consensual sex is way more satisfying, what you do with your words is up to you, I do agree with the content of your words though. :-) It's all good.

Good thing. I think the website your referring to is radfem speak which has been misidentified by MRAntis as Radfem Hub.
http://radfemspeak.net/forum/ has been shut down because of feminist backlash. It was a very small group of people within the forum sad ra few otten apples is tainting a group.

P.s. That forum was heavily raided (weekly troll raids since 2008) so that needs to be mentioned as well.

Also pps I agree about real activism, in the real world. I think you'll find it is moderate feminists which are most heavily active ... I volunteer my time fairly regularly. If you are interested in being proactive I'm sure I can help you find some ways and groups to do that with! Something you might find rewarding is volunteering at a crisis hotline.

Articles on Radfem Hub or Femonade aren't less extreme, it's not even that important wich websites it are, it's about the content.
I've sometimes read on those websites and still come to the conclusion that it's (albeit a small group maybe) a very excluding group, I don't want to be a part of that.
I don't support the message that there's something wrong with maleness, there's something wrong with the stereotypical masculine genderrole (that's a huge difference!) where women are prey or prizes that a man has to 'take'.
Reading articles on different Radfem websites gave me the slight impression the MRA's have of all forms of feminism.
Thank god not all feminists are manhating radical feminists (wich isn't even regular radical feminism).
Makes me wonder though... I never found an article with a real solution for their percieved problem, they seem to confuse "getting rid of patriarchy" with "getting rid of males", I did read 1 article with a not-very-real solution, but it's flawed.
For the people who're interested: http://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2013/01/09/what-logistical-problem/

Anyway: my favourite brand of feminism is the one that's including without compromising ideals, men are welcome if they acknowledge and support the ideals (so no "sex positive freedom feminism"! sellouts...)
I guess all I want to say is: feminism as a civil/human rights movement needs to crawl out of damnation alley, I wish we could unite and really make a difference in the world once again.
But that's hard when people don't seem to understand what it really is and when there's so much factionism among feminism and an outright fifth column among women, sometimes even feminist women.

@ Dente: you're fast!
I actually am active on others fields, I do talk openly about feminism IRL (wich is already a shock... even admitting you're a feminist is taboo these days, I always first have to explain that feminism isn't "not shaving your armpits or legs and being a lesbian manhater", but really being active seems hard if you're alone.
Currently I'm working on anti-bullying activism, I've written a plan and somewhere this year (when my personal stuff has stabilized and I've got some nice time again) I will execute that plan.
It's pretty interesting, I won't go offtopic too much here (you can PM me if you'd like to discuss it), but I'm going to act as a 'third party' between students and "adults" (parents, teachers, the school management etc.).
Students are usually all alone when bullied and adults try to sweep these things under the carpet, a third party who listens, educates, tells the truth (there are A LOT of myths about bullying!) and helps them towards a bully-free life.

But if you have advice on how to be more active in feminism IRL besides just being open and vocal: please, I'd love to hear what I can do. :-)

26 More Responses

Heads up folks, before you attack Dente on her stats for male rape...
Realize that she is using statistics for REPORTED rapes by a male victim. The stats would be higher if they were reported more.

The Office of National Statistics estimates that approximately 3.5% of the male population have been sexually assaulted. That number would be bloated if more men reported.

Abso-fricken-lutely. ...And to encourage men to report, people in general and law enforcement in particular ought to realize that it's very serious and very wrong.

Only an active, enthusiastic "yes!" in words and behavior means "yes", everything else means "no".

Boys and men do get sexually exploited...Chronic, routine sexual abuse happens to them as well.<br />
Just saying.

Yes, they are the 9% (although I personally believe a disproportionate amount of that 9% includes transgender people who by law are classified as "male")... the perps of those crimes are still for 99% male.
That's males raping males (or transgenders), of course that's bad too, but it's a pretty lousy argument against feminism.

Hylie I never said that boys or men don't also suffer from abuse.

Biology isn't, statistics on rape is.

@ dente:
I think one of your quotes said that some "girls" are trapped in an environment of chronic abuse.
Some boys are also trapped in environments of chronic abuse.
...For something completely off topic, I wish you'd have serialized this, it's not ADD-friendly...Sorry, but I'm still trying to digest all of it.
@ Ivan:
Can you carry something that grows to the size of a 2-liter soda bottle in your body and then push it out?
Look, as a human who happens to be female I resent being put in second place. I don't want to be in charge either, but I don't want to be looked at as "less than," for reasons that are biological.
Would you be angry if you were looked at as "less than" other people because of a biological characteristic?
...As someone who borrows heavily from Buddhism...Is sexism behaving with compassion? Compassion means accepting people as they are. It's hard to accept someone as they are while you are stereotyping them into "Black," "White," "Male", "Female." It's a preconception. Preconceptions blind you to the truth of who people genuinely are.

@ Scarcollection:
I think that abuse by females is vastly under-reported, because it's often not taken seriously...Too, for a man to admit that,in the past, he was overpowered and harmed...by a woman?
"When young boys are sexually abused by female offenders, there is another interesting mind assault. If a young male is getting attention sexually from an older woman, he is often seen as lucky. Boys can be experimental with sex and that is often regarded, as "boys will be boys." And if the offender is the child's mother, you can only imagine the difficulty in reporting, and the devastation for the child."
...I think the most disgusting, damaging part of the abuse for me was getting aroused during it.
People think that arousal in abuse/rape means it's not really abuse or rape, which is stupid.
Nerve endings work whether you want them to or not.

Hylier, absolutely. I hate it when abuse against boys is passed off as, "Isn't he lucky? What guy wouldn't love that?" I saw this very statement on Nancy Grace from a male defense lawyer in regards to a situation where a female teacher had been caught having sex with teenage (under age) male students. Interestingly, the women on the panel nearly tore him a new one, but he kept laughing as though it was a joke.

I think many victims feel horrid if they become aroused or have an ******. As you say, nerve endings work whether you want them to or not. It does not mean it was not rape or abuse.

I acknowledge that female offender - male victim abuse happens, it doesn't happen often, but it does happen.
Rape is rape and I want a world without rape.

But I do have to say: ignoring the grand majority of victims (male offender - female victim) in favour of "what about the tiny portion of male victim - female offender!" is something I find ridiculous.
If we teach all humans not to rape, this includes any combinations of people... focussing on male offender - female victim first because if happens so damn often simply saves more lives.
That's cruel, but I think most people would agree that if they have to choose between saving 90,11% (that was a quick calculation from memory, sorry if I'm slightly off, I suck at math... it's 91% female victims mixed with the 99% of male offenders) or 0,09% (9% male victims and 1% female offenders), they'd choose the majority.

The majority of rapists and child sexual abusers are male, the majority of their victims are female, agreed, and I'm not intending to ignore it.
All my abusers were male.
I keep bringing it up because I've encountered people who've been sexually abused as kids by women.
I've been headshrinking myself online for a while now, and in the course of talking to various people with a history of child sexual abuse, I can think of at least 8 off the top of my head who had female perpetrators.
So it seems important to me to emphasize that it does happen.
I'm also under the impression that a female perp is less likely to be reported, and if they are, the victim is less likely to be believed.

Oh, wait, 9...


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