No Apology

Ha ha, really?

Interesting, but I have to respectfully disagree. Isolation is what causes exlcusion, not a community that is built upon ideas and shared values. If you feel excluded because a gender and their issues is getting spot light, you are exlcuding yourself. Sharing ideas, "pride", and simply being "there" and loud about it doesn't discredit anyone else. Inequality among genders is a tangable thing. Women's issues are real, and perhaps not all women share the same issues but we share the same world where those problems are happening.

Maybe you're at the level to appreciate people individually without seeing race, gender, sexual orientation and age; but that is not common. And feminism has nothing to do with lifting up one gender as more important than another, as I think you're implying. (Which I guess would make it kind of a 'girls club' and exclusive.)

I really love men. I think it's a shame that around 93% of people in prison are men. That's a "man's issue" if I ever heard it. Definantly something that should be talked about and researched. Not necessarily by feminists though, and for a good reason.

Feminists are concerned that addressing men’s issues (or gender issues as a broad goal) will move the conversation completely away from women’s issues, resulting in no progress for the women’s part of the gender progress.

So instead feminists focus on women’s issues and allow others to focus on other’s issues. That doesn't mean that men's issues aren't important, or we view them as less important as ours, it's just not an issue we want to focus on because it's not our horse in the race. That doesn't mean no one else is as important as women.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I live these types of conversations. Anything thought provoking is nothing but wonderful.

I understand what you’re saying. It has a lot of merit and is the most common approach. I still think it's the wrong approach as is doesn't take into account or spends too much time fighting reaction/rejection of others. To make progress in anything, we first must reduce the rejectionist to a thin minority, not empower them. The opposite often first occurs with any loud movements of change. Martin Luther King was a master at understanding this and often DISCOURAGED demonstrations that would unbind the founding message of civil rights to one of radicalism - An approach he absolutely loathed.

I'm very uncomfortable relating feminism to ‘her vs. him’ battle. To me this dismisses a large population of men who agree with true equality. It's also strongly suggests strongly "pro-woman" and "empowerment of woman". Here again, the core message of 'equality' becomes lost by the very people we're trying to reform. It's for these reasons that I can't say I am a feminist. I don't want to be associated with the few radicals. You said it yourself – this is not about “hating men” – But that IS the perception, like it or not. And until that perception is reversed, or flattened – progress will remain slow or stalled.

This is why I have a problem with labels. It inherently binds me to ALL the members of a group and instead of promoting a great cause; I have to be apologetic, or explain that there are exceptions, radicals that I don’t agree too, or morons that completely distort the cause. This happens – ALL the time. It can’t be discredited.

I absolutely refuse to associate myself to any political party for this very reason. And I'm not alone in the reasoning. As an example, I have a few friends who happen to be homosexual. One of their biggest complaints about the "gay pride" movement are the idiots that perform outlandish things during a public displays of support, not demanding recognition, but demanding "respect". People need to be respectful to get respected. Others remember these moronic moments first and unfairly associate gay to mean representitive of these few idiots. The same is true with Feminism. People remember the radicals and associate all "feminists" with them. We've all heard the phrase 'femi-nazi'.

These associations are caustic and stalls or even reverses progress, reducing members to just "trouble makers" instead of intelligent beings arguing a case.

By no means do I mean stand silent. I could never do that. No way. My friends would get a kick out of that, as I’m not an “ignore” or “forgive and forget” type. I can get into peoples face - if merited.

But again, I support the cause of equality for ALL people - regardless of gender, age, race, and heritage. I'm also sensitive to the traditions and beliefs of others. This is equally important to remember. I believe this approach gives my voice merit, and credibility, and without any negative connotations. If enough in-mass practiced this approach rather than the perception of "the clan of universal sister-hood", I think greater progress can be made.

On a happy note: I work as an HR rep in a large multi-national corporation. I can tell you first hand that gender equality and anti-discrimination are very very high standards for us. We have recently removed first names from employee databases and us employee number+last name to identify people within the company. This helps level the playing field.

You are correct that we can't shrug off the reputation of being a "man-hating" group. Yes, there are women that hate men that are feminists, and there might even be a lot of women who identify with the feminst movement that hate men- but a portion is not a whole, even if that portion of the movement (the negative man-hating movement) is loud. To it's core feminism is about gender equality, and that's the message/goal, and should be treated as such. That's how I identify myself and the feminist movement.

A lot of people get drunk in college, but we know that college is more than a big drinking club, right? I wouldn't reject telling people I went to college because I didn't want them to think that I was a drunk party girl. I do think there is power in being the "example". (A feminist who is outspoken about not hating men.) Maybe we need to be louder than man-hating feminists instead of giving up and letting them own a bad reputation to a good thing. Even if we never erase that horrible reputation, I would want to try.

I AM A FEMINIST AND I DON'T HATE ALL MEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (loud enough? :-D)

Oh great example! Touche'! :) So it's agreed. Let's quiet the trouble makers (respecfully) and move forward. And at the same time, we need to recongnise that progress has been made over the last 3 decades and compliment those who helped make this happen. Woman and men alike. Thanks for taking the time to explain your position in detail. Either way we look at things - I got yer back. :)

Yes to all of this Katie....yes.

Sometimes you make me swoon. (I mean, I'll go back to throwing thing at you, but sometimes...you make perfect sense)

That's nice. You do know I'm just trying to score feminist chicks?

At least you have good taste

Exactly. The idea that feminists hate men is a myth. If you hate men, you're not a feminist--you're a sexist. End of story. I don't see why people are so confused about that.

Exactly. ;)

So true and so well put: "Only someone very insecure would assume having respect and appreciation for women (and oneself) automatically means hating men."

It's called thinking.

Yep.

Kk. Go have sexual intercourse with yourself.

I'm deleting all your comments except this one, so everyone can see what a stupid ******* you are without reading your idiotic bullshit.

Hahaha.