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"she Asked For It"... ?

DancingFox DancingFox 31-35, F 14 Responses Sep 20, 2012

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But it doesn't assume that of all men, it just assumes it is true of some men. Saying 'don't leave your door standing open' doesn't assume people cannot control the urge to rob your house, it just acknowledges the possibility that somebody will walk past your house that is a robber, who will then rob your house. It's a precautionary thing, rather than a paranoid assumption that every one is a criminal it's a sensible acknowlegement of the fact that not all people are criminals, but perhaps 1% are.

Thank you, Thefoxkit. There is a lot of silent (and not so silent) judgement about women courting rape in certain circumstances, "Women should avoid potentially dangerous and violent situations" Hmm, like what.... situations like walking on the street where men might see a woman?

Men who rape bear full culpability. End of.

I agree RR. Many people feel just that way. "She shouldnt have been out late at night alone" or "well, she was dressed provocatively". Whatever! I've had a few heated conversations where this is concerned.

I am offended by the fact that people think we shouldn't teach women how to protect themselves. Women should be offended by the fact that people believe that women have no control over their own lives. "Women can do anything a man can do. And do it better. And do it in heels." except be responsible for their own safety and make good decisions that help keep them out of danger. No women can't do that. I guess these people believe women are children. Children lack the mental capacity to make good decisions in regard to their safety.
The photo in this story is one of the most mysogynistic things I have ever heard.

Some people are violent (both men and women). How are we to know who is a threat and who is not? Adults (this includes women as women are adults and should be treated as such) are responsible for their own safety. Learning how to keep yourself safe starts with learning what to do and what not to do. I don't know which one out of the thousands of people I meet is a violent criminal just waiting to attack. So I protect myself from everyone. That's commonsense. Unfortunately feminist seem to lack any commonsense whatsoever.

Very true... I think the risk here is that there's a certain kind of man that can't control himself. This isn't most men, but it's enough that rape still happens. The victim shouldn't be blamed, though.

If they can't control themselves, they're the ones with a problem, though, don't you think?

I mean, if someone killed a woman then said he couldn't control himself, it wouldn't make him any less of a murderer...

Yeah, I definitely agree. Those people are unstable, or just sadistic by nature, and need to be held accountable. They should always be blamed. But, there will always be maniacs out there, so whether you're a man, woman, child, or even an animal, you'll always be safer if you're careful. Blame goes to the perpetrator 100% of the time, though.

I can agree with this. However, women do wear that clothing for the sole purpose of attracting attention. There are some animalistic men who cannot control their primal impulses, and if women are wearing slutty clothes, then the aforementioned group becomes a danger to the women's chastity.

Also, this feminism is getting out of control. Feminists around the world issue more death threats that Al Qaeda every year.

I'm inclined to agree with this. While I acknowledge that we do have to be wary about we wear to avoid unwanted attention, I still think that if a woman is raped, it is through absolutely no fault of her own.

If a man or a woman (women rape as well) can't control themselves, they are entirely responsible for it. Blaming the victim for the crime perpetuated is completely unacceptable. Rape is about the lack of restraint and respect on the other persons side, not the victims.

Indeed. And I also agree with you that if we don't want unwanted attention, we should be careful how we dress - if you're showing your ****, don't be offended if men aren't looking at your eyes...
But the bottom line is: no means no. The victim cannot be blamed.

Agreed! When I go out with friends I always try not to go anywhere too isolated and I never walk home alone, just to be safe. There are just little things you can do in order to avoid any potentially harmful situations. But of course, when someone is raped, it is certainly not their fault. Victim blaming is just outright wrong.

Knightrunner, you are a fool and a hypocrite. Not that anyone has ever thought anything more of you. You say femi-nazis can't be allowed to "control" the conversations anymore. You blocked me, after one comment on your first story at EP. You have blocked everyone that used "logic and reason" to support their views. This makes you a small, pitiful man...not the manly beast you portray. Obviously, by your continous posts in this group, you have not been blocked. You have been allowed to say whatever the hell you want.I am beginning to think it is time to cut you off. Your delusional rants have turned this important group into a circus. Instead of intelligent conversations about feminism, the discussions dissolve into getting you to shut up. You were treated fairly, but you did not reciprocate. Time to take your clown show elsewhere.

Penn. I've gotten used to your style of doing things. But frankly, I don't trust you. I go into feminist rooms for a reason. I go there so that anyone that comes along and reads their stories sees that there is at least one person that isn't willing to sit silently by and let them continue telling false information and continue spreading a false narrative about the way things are. Their time of controlling the conversation is coming to an end. I am just one of the many that helping to change the tide to equality. I made one mistake. I expected feminist to argue using logic and reason. I was wrong. I should have known better. Feminists don't know.what the meaning of honor and integrity is.

Whilst we all have a responsibility for our own safety I personally believe I know plenty of men who wouldn't dream of raping a woman regardless of what she's wearing or where she is, those who would take that as an invitation to rape aren't the norm in my opinion.

*applauds*

. well said!

I can (vaguely!) remember being 17-18 years old, dressed up to the nines (mini skirt heels etc) in a bikers pub that I was a regular in, I could get as drunk as I wished and be taken home to bed and remain completely safe! That should be the norm, I don't think it is anymore but it should be, our thinking seems to have become skewed on this issue, why is it somehow seen as my responsibility to avoid rapists? The men I know know well simply wouldn't dream of taking advantage, it would hold no appeal for them. Why are women being blamed, does dressing provocatively or being drunk really incite anyone to rape? Or are a certain kind of warped mind just using it as an excuse for there own inadequacies?

Thumbs up troll. I agree 100%. Whenever I go out I protect myself. I don't protect myself against the normal people. I protect myself against the few people that aren't normal.

You were part of a community where people looked out for one another. You were a regular and you weren't vulnerable. I don't think it's any worse today than it was. I believe rape has been and continues to be under-reported, especially between people that know one another. But today, there are fewer examples of real communities. Communities are virtual (like here). Not that virtual communities are bad on their face, but they are bad when they replace real communities.

I do think that's part of the problem penn, communities aren't what they used to be, there was a collective responsibility that doesn't seem to exist in the same way now, what has caused this change I don't know but I don't like it. I still feel it should be the norm that no matter how you are dressed or how drunk you maybe you should be safe regardless, in my younger days that's just how it was but I think we should be trying to get that back rather than blaming women and making us responsible for what someone else does.

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@ KR

Let me be PERFECTLY clear about this. When a man who has an axe to grind with the feminist movement goes into a militant feminist chat room or message board, he is DUMB.

On what planet would you NOT expect an argument?

Also note that while the extreme feminists may argue with me, I find it curious how it rarely escalates to an all out flame war and I can't recall getting into a name-calling battle with anyone. (although I am getting old... so perhaps my memory fails)

Why are you addressing me if you blocked me????

............cause he's a dumbass

*applauds for Edie*
Complete and utter D-bag nozzle.

Right now I am looking into war rape. The Russians raped at least two million German women at the close of ww2 that is only counting the hospital records not the hundreds of thousands that were raped to death or shot afterwords. Of course the German soldiers also raped many millions of Russian women often killing them or carving "****** of Hitler" into their bodies for the Russians to find later. Rape in war is the norm and not done by a few individuals, but by men who go home after the war and raise families. There is some dark dormant seed in man, I believe that goes back to the beginning of our evolution that will almost always sprout if given the right environment and encouragement to do so.

Us Christian call that dormant evil "sin"; and I believe it manifests itself in women too, but differently! The human race is capable of beautiful things and of horrific things.
'You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve,' said Aslan. 'And that is both honor enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth. Be content.' - C.S. Lewis

I think you should continue your research. Look toward the war in the Congo. Women raping men and women with things like screw drivers. Men raping men to death. That dark seed is inside some PEOPLE but not all. And certainly isn't just present in only one gender.

Copper here is a link that will explain what Im talking about and give you ideas about where to start your research. http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Was-Raped/2468717

I am starting to see.. so like that is when they talk about original sin. I never really got this before and always drew a blank when people talked about it. Thank you for enlightening me. I love it when we can find ways to translate religious or spiritual teachings/beliefs with modern day equivalents. Seems so many misunderstandings come only from a lack of adequate translation and contemporary analogies.

Yup. By original sin, we don't mean that the human race is being punished for something that happened a long time ago (that wouldn't be fair). Original sin is that inner seed of evil - selfishness, self-centredness...

Yes nr I know about the dark seeds of evil that are in all human beings. I will look at the story you posted. I used rape as an example here, but it goes so much deeper and spreads so much wider than rape and gender. More men are raped in prison each year than "free" women. War is equal opportunity. Yes primarily men have fought them, but there are a great many examples of women being feirce and ruthless killers on the battlefield. It is also about methodology. Men are more likely to kill you outright in a short violent attack, women more likely to poison your coolaid. Yes, violence is a very human thing.

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Penn: I agree with you 100%. Be careful. If if you use logical thinking like this the feminist will be all over you. Ill keep the fact that you use rational thinking and logic when thinking a secret. ;)

I agree with this 100% it puts men on the level of Pavlov's dogs and Bf Skinner's rats.
When the argument is made about the way a victim was dressed a very important fact is overlooked, Rape is not sexually based, it is about power, it is about control and the argument assumes a rapist is somewhat rational in his thinking and how he selects a target. Anyone capable of rape I don't believe has the capacity to make rational decisions. Rapists select victims based on a perceived weakness in the victim, they are weak and they are cowards so they look for victims that they feel can be overpowered it is not about how they are dressed

OK. Here's my thought on the subject.

It would be dumb of me to walk through certain big city neighborhoods late at night on a Friday or Saturday. That isn't to say that the thugs that might mug me are without fault. They would be guilty of a crime.

Doesn't change the fact that I would be dumb.

If a woman chooses to dress provocatively in a place where she is vulnerable, this too is dumb. If she gets raped, is it her fault? No.

Doesn't change the fact that she would be dumb.

It also doesn't change the fact that a rapist is a rapist. No man should get a lighter sentence or should be considered less than guilty because he couldn't keep his hands off a woman dressed a certain way.

I agree with you. However, there are certain areas in Brussels, for instance, where a women, even dressed non-provocatively, will get harrassed by young males proposing her for sex. A young student called Sofie Peeters even made a documentary about it. Some people were telling her that she should stop wearing skirts (!). The skirt she was wearing on the documentary stopped above the knee...

why is a woman dumb for dressing provocatively in certain areas?? ...Hmm Penn this seems quite close to stepping over that line of placing blame on the womn for what she wears. AND why am I vulnerable in certain places just because I m a woman?....I could be the god dayum king fu master for all anyone knows.... just wanted to point out those two things Mr. Penn Sir...

*kung fu too...lmao

I'm sorry, but a 20 yr old girl who goes to a frat party by herself is dumb. It does not justify what may happen to her. But it's a dumb thing to do. At the end of the day, we all need to fend for ourselves.

Would be better if people respected each others rights and boundries

Yes, but Penny is right. Not everyone out there is nice and friendly, so we should make sure we keep ourselves safe.

And that's all I meant. :)

I absolutely agree Pen. It comes down to personal responsibility.

Penn, I feel that you are giving a perfect example of Foxkid's point. The guys at a frat party are not in control? That a girl is stupid for thinking she is safe in the presence of those men/ boys? Sounds like typical "blame the victim" retoric to me.

Did you read what I said? I'm NOT blaming the victim. It's not ok to attack someone for being dumb. It doesn't change the fact that it was a dumb thing to do. This is NOT semantics or a subtle look at things. Rape is NOT ok, in any instance. No one deserves to be raped. You cannot ever justify blaming the victim. But some victims are just dumb. Period. It's really that simple.

I somewhat agree but...... College usually runs from 18 to 21 years old. If you can't go to a frat party alone at 20 without being considered dumb or without being at risk, when should you go? At what age is it safe?

No one, male or female should go to a party where there will be a lot of drunk people, alone. Being drunk makes you vulnerable. We are less vulnerable when we have friends looking out for us, even if they too are drunk.

I do not ever believe in the "she asked for it" crap. That's nonsense. But there are choices that all of us make. If we choose to put ourselves in a vulnerable position, then, there may be consequences. If someone takes advantage of that vulnerability, it is immoral and unethical and possibly even illegal. Appropriate action should be taken.

All of us have the ability to protect ourselves and avoid certain situations.

I went to college. I got really drunk at a few parties. There was always someone around that I could turn to. When my friends got out of control. I had their backs.

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