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Feminism In Schools And The Treating Of Men

When I was in high school, we had two teachers that helped woman more then men, infect they mostly just ignored them. They were always getting bad grades and were hardly ever called for any thing. The teachers would make them read cretin books that would belittle the men. That was our literature teacher, she would normally have us read books such as; Full Frontal Feminism: A Young Woman's Guide to Why Feminism Matters by Jessica Valenti, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings by Maya Angelou, and the like. The boys in the class would be criticized if they miss the meaning, the girls in the class would be allowed to express them selves even if they didn’t like some thing in the book. She would often go in to rants on how a man should be, also would talk about how all men are misogynists. She would often give statistics about abusers and rap, and would out right say that the boys in the class would rap or abuse a woman at lest 6 or 8 times in their life time. In our speech class normally the boys would have to find their feelings about how they are taught growing up they are born to treat woman the way they do, and that with out the woman they would be out of control. There were times we would break into groups the boys were always separated, so she could keep an eye on what they talk about in a critical thinking setting. The girls were able to talk about any thing. And allowed to express them selves. I was not happy with some things about how men are not or how they are supposed to be. I brought the Christian aspect in to my argument with her, she never got made at me but that I was too brain washed, that the Bible was written for men to keep woman under control. She had said that most woman that are Christians normally change their views at the end of the year, how great it is to see their eyes open to the truth. Half way through both classes you will start to see the boys give up and not care any more because they knew what ever they did they would get a bad grade any way. I even help on boy to write an assay on a book, to see how the teacher would react to his work. I practically wrote the entire thing, and gave the teacher every thing she wanted to hear, but he still got an F. In fact she wrote on his paper that he didn’t get the grasp of the author and its normal men would not understand. On a side classes that were only once a year. The literature teacher would have her feminist talk with all the girls in the school. It was extremely surreal, we would often chant things such as “empower me” or “we are intelligent”, it seemed like what a Hitler youth camp would be like. The statistics would be produced and that men are born to be the way they are. Almost like they are some out of control animal that needs to be controlled. Even at the end of my senor year we had the job festival, it was even separate from the boys because they wanted woman to get the upper hand in job placements. There were great jobs for making big money, but the boys in theirs had construction and military. Men and woman are very much treated very differently in school today and it’s very sad, because they teach they say woman are equal but they actually say men are trash.
deleted deleted 26-30 34 Responses Apr 7, 2012

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Me too.

It has become abundantly clear that there is no need to debate these people any further (as suggested by KR) because they are going to believe what they want to believe, even when you supply factual evidence to prove that what they believe is incorrect. It has also become abundantly clear that they are going to repeatedly personally attack you, and the way you present things, when you provide factual evidence that conflicts with their beliefs, and when you question why they continue to believe facts that you have proven are incorrect. <br />
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I am not going to waste my time anymore providing factual evidence to closed minded people who would probably continue to argue that the sky is red instead of blue, simply because they want to believe the sky is red because it is their favorite color, even though it is obvious that it is actually blue. <br />
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Have fun guys. I hope your negative views and opinions on so many things make you very happy and give you a very positive, joyous, and blissful life. I am now going to go outside and meditate, and then play with my kids and do some yoga under the beautiful blue sky.

Slightly edited response to Atri (I was tired last night but suffering a bit of insomnia when I wrote the original response): <br />
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"1. The divorce rate has escalated since the "second wave" of feminism got rolling in the late 1960's. All you have to do is look at the statistics and they are right there, No left ot right bieas, there are what they are. Is it a coincidence that at the same time women were becoming indocrinated with all the feminist hoopla and because of the ages people married in the 40's and 50's there were a lot of women re-entering the work force at the same time they were hearing and reading this stuff. In short women became more independent."<br />
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I agree, but you still have not stated why feminism is to blame for the escalated divorce rate. Women joined the work force and as a result became more independent as a result of feminism which, as I stated previously, meant that it was easier for them to leave bad, unhappy, marriages if they did not love their husband and didn't want to remain married to him. But that doesn't mean feminism is "to blame". It just means feminism provided them with the easier and better means to do what they wanted, or needed, to do. Where is the problem with that, and why should that be considered a bad thing that feminism should be criticized for? I'm sure the women who escaped those bad marriages consider it a good thing. As well as the men who wanted to divorce their wives but felt they couldn't because it would leave the wife destitute. <br />
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"But what I would strongly disagree with is the idea that men are pigs and bad and holding women back. some were, but not all."<br />
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I agree with this also. I never said men are pigs and bad, and they all hold women back. Just as you said "some were, but not all". The anti-feminists are the ones who accuse feminists of this belief even though it often simply is not true. <br />
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"But I also saw how women began reacting to men and it was not nice or a pretty sight. You ladies did not really learn from this as you have only read the books an listened to the modern day harridans of NOW."<br />
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But you are a woman who was around then. So did you begin reacting to men in a way that was not a pretty sight? The problem I have is with people who accuse all feminists of being man haters who treat men badly. I am a feminist and I am not a man hater who treats men badly (unless they treat me badly). My mother and grandmother were feminists around the same time that you were when the movement was in its "second wave" but they also did not hate men or treat them badly. So the people who believe this is the case should let go of these stereotypical beliefs that put all feminists in the same category and accuse them of acting the same way, and instead accept that just like all people are not the same, all feminists are not the same either. I did not learn what I know just from books and the modern day harridans of NOW as you suggest. I have learned what I know from various sources, including my mother and grandmother who were in the midst of it all (yes, they burned their bras during a protest just to make a point and not because they actually wanted to stop wearing bras - LOL). Knightrunner is even younger than I am so he wasn't there when it was happening and didn't really learn from it either, but he acts like he knows more than anyone else even though he won't explain why.<br />
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"This organization was started with radical left wing groups inside the Democrat party." <br />
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It is not clear when the second wave of feminism started, but it is clear that it started in the 1960s and many believe that Betty Friedan's book "The Feminine Mystique" which was published in 1963 is what got the ball rolling. That and the report on gender inequality which was released by president JFK's commission on the status of women began to bring about serious change. NOW was started in 1966 by Betty Friedan, but there were many other feminist groups during the 60s as well, and they weren't all extreme, radical left wing groups, as so many anti-feminists suggest. Most were made up of Democrats since Democrats are usually more liberal and willing to do things that will bring about change to benefit American citizens. <br />
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"It is pure politics and not some high minded help for all women." <br />
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Can you please explain how it was pure politics as you suggest? I think that "high minded" help for people who need help is a good thing, don't you? There is "high minded help" for the murdering of Chinese babies, and the people suffering in Darfur, Uganda, Somalia. Angola, Iran, Afghanistan and other countries where human rights violations and abuse are occurring right now. <br />
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"If it were, there would be people from this group speaking out for women in muslim countries where we are less than cattle and have no rights at all. Or how about Darfur (sp?) where women are raped and murdered just for the fun of it." <br />
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That actually has occurred, but being familiar with what actually goes on in other countries all the time, or assuming you can always do things to bring about change isn't realistic. We have been speaking of feminism in the US here, and not around the world. However it does exist around the world and has done very good things, just like here in the US. <br />
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"Or make it simplier and closer to home." <br />
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Many of us do. <br />
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"Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachman, Laura Ingraham, Michelle Malkin are insulted nearly daily in some of the most vile and insulting ways. They are called nasty names, called stupid. even their husbands and children are personall attacked and viscious lies and jokes made of them and the silence from NOW and other feminists is deafening!"<br />
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As I mentioned in another comment you made in this regard, feminism does not require that women support all women and their views, no matter what they are. It supports the rights of women to express their views, but it does not dictate that if you are a feminist, and a woman expresses views you don't agree with, you have to support those views just because she is a woman. Some men have been extremely critical of political, and famous, men and women (like the ones you mentioned) and organizations that they don't agree with (like feminism), so why shouldn't women be able to do the same. That is called equality and freedom of speech. The fact that NOW and other feminists are pretty much silent, as you suggest, and are not jumping out and saying offensive and insulting things about these women too says a lot. They are not trying to suppress or silence them or beat them down. As I said, they support their right to say what they wish, even though they don't support what they are saying. <br />
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"You should hear what I am called for speakng what I believe by feminists. It ain't purty, Magee." <br />
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I don't know what this is about. Who is Magee?<br />
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" #4 I do not know of the source of CC statistics, but that does not make them any less valid". <br />
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Unless they actually aren't valid. <br />
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"I have seen statistics in numerous places over the years saying pretty much the same thing. I have also witnessed it in couples I have known over the last 20-30 years who divorced or the wives bought into this stuff. There is a case in Colorado that was just recently resolved after 8 years of the husband held in jail on trumped up lies and charges by his feminist wife!" <br />
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That is awful, but I never heard about it. Are you sure she was a feminist? In any event, I don't understand why feminism should be blamed for this unless a woman claims that things relating to feminism are the reason she has done things like this. This woman is obviously a bad person (if what you are saying is true), who did treacherous and unjust things to her husband, but that does not mean that feminism is the cause of that, or is to blame for her behavior. She is the one to blame, and no one else (except maybe the lover who helped her who is, eh hem, a man). Did any feminist organizations come in to defend and support her? I seriously doubt it. Blaming feminism is like saying that being a Christain minister is what made televangelist Jimmy Swaggart have sex with prostitutes, or is what made Jim Baker so corrupt in so many ways. <br />
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"but it illustrates in extreme fashion what many feminists will stoop to". <br />
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I think it only demonstrates what some, not many, women will stoop to, and some men will also stoop to since they have done the same things. Its not indicative of feminism unless there are statistics that show that practically all women who do this kind of thing are feminists, or all feminists do this kind of thing, or that cite feminism as the reason they did it. <br />
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"I watched one from double dip her husband that was outrageous no matter if he was an angel or a demon. It was totally unfair and uncalled for. " <br />
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I don't get this. Can you please explain what this means. In my world "double dipping" means putting your chip or cracker into a bowl of dip after you have already dipped it once and taken a bite out of it. <br />
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"Most women are submissive by nature, but lets define what I mean and believe CC means as submissive. We are physically smaller in some cases by a little, in others, such as myself a lot. We do not have the muscular developement of men, nor the spatial attributes of men. We have little choice but to be "sunmissive" in these areas." <br />
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I don't think that is what he means, but its still unclear and unexplained. I think he is referring to a woman's desire to let her husband be the head of household, make the decisions, and have her do what he tells her to do which seems to be the case in your marriage. Like you, and most women, I am smaller and not as physically strong as my husband. But we share equally in the decisions that are made in our family. He carries heavy things, and takes care of things that require physical strength, but that hardly makes me submissive to him. "Spacial Attributes" is a high tech term in my world, but assuming you mean you are physically different from him, of course that is true. But why do you believe that somehow make him superior to you, and therefore makes you inferior and submissive? Men are typically better at some things than women are, but women are typically better at some things than men are. This doesn't mean that in every instance one sex is overall superior to the other. <br />
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"Let me ask you this. You are alone walking across a large parking lot alone and late at night or alone waiting for a subway train (I don't know your locations) or a bus or other public transportation. Do you not feel even a little apprehensive? A little fear? I sure as heck do! I go out of my way to make myself as safe as I possible can, to the point of having Mace on my key ring and in my hand and a 9mm Sig Sauer pistol in my purse. I'll bet all you ladies have Mace or some other defensive spray handy all the time. If you don't, you are very foolish." <br />
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So why does that make you submissive? All that means is that men are more inclined to attack women because men are physically stronger and more prone to being violent and abusive, and as a result can overtake a woman. If you were truly submissive you would just give in to a man forcing himself on you instead of trying to fight him off. <br />
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"Another, is most wmen know little or nothing about a car or mechanical things. I let my husband take care of all of that. I defer to his expertise. I submitted. How many Captains does a ship have? How about a marriage?"<br />
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A marriage has two partners, and not a captain. I know a lot about mechanical things. I actually do some work on my own car, and take care of other mechanical things around our homes and in my office. There are women who are engineers, scientists, plumbers, electricians, manufacturers, and other occupations, including car mechanics, who know a lot about mechanical things so please don't assume that because you don't, most women don't. I will admit that I defer to my husband about things I know that he knows more about than I do, but he does the same with me. He accepts that I know more about some things than he does. If I deferred to him about those things, particularly if I knew that what he decided to do wasn't the best thing, or was wrong, because I'm the one who actually knows more about it than he does, that would be very foolish. Why communicate and confer with each other about issues you have to decide that affect you as a couple if you are always going to submit to your husband and let him decide what to do? Why waste your time? If I felt that my husband always knew more than me about everything, and would always do what was best, and that I was going to let him make all the decisions no matter what, I wouldn't waste my time discussing my thoughts with him concerning decisions. I would just let him make all of the decisions while I go bake a pie or clean the toilet. Actually, I think I would probably spend that spare time providing myself with more knowledge and education so I could make some of the decisions too. But that's just me. <br />
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"we are equal and yet at the same time, he is the head of our family." <br />
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Why do you believe you are equal if you don't know as much as him, he knows what is best and makes all of the decisions, you submit to him, and he is the head of your family and household? That doesn't make sense. <br />
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"This is not only Biblical, but it also works very well when two people are honest and communicate with each other. It has worked well for us for 33 years." <br />
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That is good for you, but can you accept that it isn't good for everyone and doesn't work for everyone, and it may cause serious conflicts and problems for some people, therefore people are entitled to have differing views, and do what works best for them, and not just you? <br />
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"I believe women trynig to become totally equal to men is fighting mother nature. It is not how humans are made up. women have their roles and men have theirs."<br />
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This is true to a certain extent (it is the role of women to give birth since they can and men can't), but much of the roles that are put on women are societal and not natural, and if women didn't have a problem with much of the restrictions and roles that society has placed on them over the years feminism wouldn't have taken off, and things wouldn't have changed the way they did. <br />
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"I have no problem with that and do not see why you ladies do. we are naturally submissive to men and I don't mean like slaves or anything of the sort, so please don't make some Superman like leaps of incredible illogical assumptions by this statement."<br />
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Once again, you should not assume that just because you feel this way, all other women also do. We are all different. You should respect that and recognize that if you don't view things the way feminists do, that does not mean that feminists should view things the way that you do, and that you are right and they are wrong. If you choose to be submissive, and believe women are naturally submissive that is your choice, but it is not the choice of all women. The women you mentioned above like Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachman, Laura Ingraham, and Michelle Malkin, and others like Laura Schlessinger, Senators Hillary Clinton, Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein, Representative Nancy Pelosi, Supereme Court Justices Sandra Day O'Connor, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Sonia Sotomayor, and Elena Kagan would probably disagree with you, and not all of them are feminists. Feminism has given women the right to make choices ba<x>sed on how they feel. Can you imagine how you would feel if radical feminism was the only accepted way for women to think and act so you were expected to think that way and act that way or you would be ridiculed and even punished? Can you imagine how you would feel if you were expected to work on your car, or make all the decisions for your family, support your family, have your husband be completely submissive to you, or other things that you are against, are incapable of, or don't like? Well that is how some feminist women felt before equality rose to the level where it is today, and that is why feminism came to be. They were forced to act and do things they didn't want to, and were prevented from doing things they wanted to and express their views. Do you get that? <br />
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"#33 I believe there is no gender gap without reading Michelle Langley. In fact in some demographics I believe women cheat more, because one simple reason. Availbility." <br />
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Just curious - which demographics are you speaking of? Also cheating is not the only thing that relates to gender gaps, and Michelle Langley is not considered the authority on this subject. In fact she does what many women have a problem with. She stereotypes and pigeon holes women and suggests that all women's relationships follow a very predictable pattern, when in fact they don't, and that all women think very much the same about sex and relationships. This obviously isn't true since all relationships are not that same, and are not viewed the same way by all women. <br />
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"You ladies know how easy it is to get with any male anytme you want, assumeing you want to. Men rarely have that luxury. There are not that many women available to them for a quickies roll in the hay or with time for affairs because of other responsibilities. I know, if I guy wants t get laid, he will find the time, but can he always find a willing female that won't cost him an arm and a leg?"<br />
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So if women are as inclined or more inclined, to have affairs as men are, but it is much easier for us to do so, wouldn't far more women be having affairs and cheating on their husbands? And as a result wouldn't the statistics concerning women cheating be through the roof instead of about equal to men who cheat as suggested? <br />
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"Ladyblue, you are a beautiful woman by looks of your avatar and I am sure you are not looking nor are yu going to jum in bed with any guy who walks down the street an catches your eye for even a second. But, You and I know for a fact, you could if you so desired." <br />
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Thank you for the compliment, and yes, I know this and people who know about me know why I know this, and its not a good thing or something that I, or most of the women I know, would want. <br />
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"Not all men can do that. In fact vey few can. You ought to see who I have said "no" to in my life. I'm sure you have also. It's pretty much just common sense. We, women are not thinking sex every 15 seconds as men are. If we have something to do after work we head for that, we don't look at guys and pick one up for a quickie. Think about it. :)" <br />
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Some women do, but what does this have to do with my question?<br />
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"The rest of your #33 question is unanswerable as no one really knows who has cheated on who unles they are in the relationship and that isn't always a sure thing." <br />
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If this is correct then we really don't know if in fact the statistic are true and more men cheat then women or vice versa do we? So why did CCC bring this up? I didn't. <br />
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"#34. Now I want to turn this around and ask you to show me proof of this!" <br />
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Well here's a start. http://dailycaller.com/2011/01/27/men-more-likely-to-stay-with-women-as-opposed-to-men/ I'll give you more later. <br />
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"I have known one woman who stayed witha husband wh cheated on her and a ton of men who stayed witha cheating wife." <br />
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For me it is quite the opposite, and I am in a position to know about this . . . believe me. <br />
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"You named some famous cheaters. How many wives stayed with them? Jesse James? Nope!, Tiger Woods? Nope!, Eliot Spitzer? Nope!" <br />
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That is because I was only naming women who divorce their husband because he has done something bad like cheating. There are also plenty of famous women who stayed with their cheating husbands. Like . . . um . . . Hillary Clinton for instance (DUH!). Also Elizabeth Edwards, Kathy Lee Gifford, David Letterman's wife, Jacqueline Kennedy. The list goes on and on. Do you want me to keep going? <br />
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"I can find misogynist remarks by idiots all day long if I looked for them. Conversly I can find misandry remarks by the truckload every hour of the day if I look for them." <br />
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Really? Where? And why do you believe that the ones who make the misandry remarks are feminists and not just women who have a problem with men? What bugs me is the continual attachment of the "feminist" labels, when I know some women who are man haters and are mean, but are far from feminists. <br />
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"Quite often it is pretty trivial stuff, but at other ties it is cruel and viscious things said about men that 9 tmes out of 10 are plainly untrue." <br />
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How do you know its not true, and why do you relate those comments to feminists and not just man hating women, or women who have problems and issues with men for one reason or another which might be true? <br />
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"So it angers me when I hear women making these false statements and attacking men." <br />
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What false statements, and how do you know they are false, and once again, why do you relate them to feminism - or do you? How do you know the man they are talking about isn't like one of the aholes you've encountered? If it angers you, you should just walk away. That is what I do when I hear women I don't know talking about something I don't want to hear. If I know them I will ask them why they feel the way they do and try to discuss their feelings with them instead of just getting angry at them and condemning them. If I know that what they are saying is false, I will point out why I know it is false and try to get them to see things correctly. <br />
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"As for CC, I have not read anything I thought as misogynist in the slightest and I have read a lot of his repleies, comments and stories." <br />
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Neither have I. I never accused him of being a misogynist either, but he seems to think all feminists are man haters and they all have certain characteristics, and think and act certain ways, and I know that absolutely is not true. He seems to think all women are the same in certain ways too ba<x>sed on what he has written here which is why I questioned it. He pigeon holes women and suggests that "all" women have certain characteristics, when I know this isn't true. We "all" have certain physical characteristics (boobs and v@gin@$) which is what makes us women, but that is about it. Sure some women think and act alike in relation to some things, but "all" women do not think and act alike in relation to some things. <br />
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"If anything he tells it like it i and maybe it it is as Jack Nicholson said in A Few Good Men for some women. "You can't handle the truth!" <br />
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And maybe you think he tells it like it is because you think much the same way, but some of us know that the assumptions and accusations that have been made are not true and therefore he is not "telling it like it is" all the time. Perhaps you and he, and others, cannot handle the truth about some women and feminists for some reason which is why you are so opposed to feminism. JMHO and nothing more. <br />
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"Now that is not directed at you unless it fits. I don't know, bu I will say I see you repeating a lot of feminist dogma and and taling point and making some awfully long leaps in logic and falling way short." <br />
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Really? Where? Please provide me with examples, because one of the problems that I have is when people make accusations, but don't provide anything to back it up, and I know it isn't true. Yes, I say some things about feminism and myself repeatedly that I know are true. Why is that such a problem, particularly when I am saying it to someone who repeatedly claims it isn't true? That is also what causes me to question what they say. tamytamy actually stated that she appreciated that I provided logical explanations, and proof, for what I was saying, and didn't just make conclusory statements like some people here do. <br />
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"Just because CC Says something you do not agree with means he is against women voting. I have never seen him say any such thing." <br />
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What? Neither have I, and if you read what I have written you would see that I have NEVER accused him of that. What I have pointed out though, is that feminism is what brought about womens' voting rights, and women having a right to vote is one of the benefits brought about by feminism. <br />
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"That was silly, but very typical of liberals. everything is either or, black or white." <br />
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I'm sorry, but I am kind of hearing that from you and other anti-feminists along with incorrect accusations. Saying all feminists think and act alike, and all women think and act alike in regard to certain things, is pretty black and white in my mind. <br />
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"Anesty International was formed as a communist/socialist organization to put out propaganda to combat human rights atrocities commited in the USSR (at the time) China and other communist countries and revolutions. Do your home work." <br />
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Please do yours, because you are very wrong on this one. Amnesty International was founded in London in 1961 by a British lawyer who was Catholic named Peter Benenson (not a communist or socialist) who read a newspaper article that discussed the imprisonment of two Portuguese students for allegedly "having drunk a toast to liberty". He launched the organization with his English friend Eric Baker who was the head of Quaker Peace and Social Witness. They fight the human rights abuses of prisoners and refugees, and others. If they were communist/socialists why would they be combating what occurred in communist/socialist countries? <br />
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"If you notice the will condemn the US for say, water boarding a terrorist, but ignore the Chinese government killing female children because couples are allowed one child and a boy is preferred." Perhaps that is because their primary focus is on the abuse and torture of prisoners and refugees, and not the killing of children, and "water boarding" is considered torture by many. But as Dente mentioned they have fought for human rights in other areas as well, including the murder of Chinese babies. And as she also mentioned . . . the ones who kill the female babies in China are the parents, and not the government, as you suggest. "Or they will ignore the atrocities in Darfur, Uganda, Somalia. Iran, Afghanistan under the Taliban." I am not going to go into the rest of this because it is also incorrect, and has nothing to do with feminism. Please do your "homework" on these statements before posting them because when you are clearly incorrect about what you say people aren't as inclined to listen to you.

Que the feminist hate and rant about how we don't respect them.

Notice how when a man posts facts and figures about feminism and its hate how he is treated with the utmost contempt. But when a women does the same she is treated with respect. It doesn't matter how well the man conducts himself the feminist see him as a knuckle dragging idiot. I think this goes to the heart of the issue. <br />
CC Your a better man than I for tolerating this for as long as you have. Hats off to you sir.<br />
Arti. There is no need to debate these people any further. You have proved your point beyond any reasonable doubt. Any sain and logical person could see this.

"Reply by Atri Apr 17th, 2012 at 8:28PM<br />
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Holy Cow! First how do you expect anyone to answer all of these in one sitting or comment?"<br />
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Me: The same way we show you respect and read your long posts!<br />
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"I won't reply to all, but there are a few that stand out to me as pure liberal femisits pap. You ladies experiences as a female are radically different from mine and I worked in an industry where people were used on a daily basis and at the time I was working, men held all the power. "<br />
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Me: You keep alluding to your job so I will take the bait, what did you do?<br />
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"Even so, I flourished and did well and knew who I was the entire time. "<br />
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Me: Has anyone accused you of anything else? And you realize your saying you did this despite men and how they treated you and your also saying you did it under 2nd wave feminism!<br />
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"1. The divorce rate has escalated since the "second wave" of feminism got rolling in the late 1960's. All you have to do is look at the statistics and they are right there, No left ot right bieas, there are what they are."<br />
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Me: You would also have to admit that a lot of things have changed since the 60's and blaiming only feminism isn't providing a whole picture.<br />
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"Is it a coincidence that at the same time women were becoming indocrinated with all the feminist hoopla and because of the ages people married in the 40's and 50's there were a lot of women re-entering the work force at the same time they were hearing and reading this stuff."<br />
<br />
Me: Youre aware of divorce statistics and birthrates after world war 2 where very similar numbers of women where in the work force? <br />
<br />
Women working doesn't have a rise in divorce rate.<br />
<br />
"In short women became more independent. You may say that's great and I would agree, but what I would strongly disagree with is the idea that men are pigs and bad and holding women back. some were, but not all. No man ever held me back and I was out there while you ladies were still in diapers."<br />
<br />
Me: You understand feminism doesn't say all men are bad. You understand that patriarchy and the gender of men aren't exactly the same thing. And that men where hurt under patriarchy too? And that feminists don't think men are all bad, and that suggesting that it does isn't really truthful nor does it help defend the behaviors of some of the antifeminists.<br />
It isn't feminism attacking men or condoning it. That is misandrist women, which feminism speaks out against.<br />
<br />
Saying misandry and feminism are the same thing is like saying greenbare and concept are the same man. <br />
<br />
"DA you were not even a twinkle in your mama and papas eye. Heck they probably did not know each other yet. My point ladies is, I was there and I was in college and then work force when all this was happening. "<br />
<br />
Me: Atri I was in college and in the work force during 3rd wave feminism which is what feminism is now... can't you at least admit that the feminism you talk of is a part of history and stop condeming all feminsim for what happened to you in the past?<br />
<br />
"I have seen them buring their bras. That really made sense and advanced the issue. :D LOL!"<br />
<br />
<br />
Me: Even though you lived through this and I didn't (wasn't a twinkle or was in diapers or whatever) I understand the historical symbolism of this. As you may remember during this time people burned the american flag as a symbol of protest, the burning of bras was a symbolic act referencing the burning of flags and what that meant. I learned that from books. <br />
<br />
<br />
"But I also saw how women began reacting to men and it was not nice or a pretty sight. "<br />
<br />
Me: You may also remember that people in general were not treating one another well. I would ask you to recall what was going on all over the country, on university campuses, on black protestors, on hippies, on veterans ect... it was feminists doing all that too? <br />
<br />
Are you going to blame feminism for the general populations inability to treat one another with respect? <br />
<br />
"You ladies did not really learn from this as you have only read the books an listened to the modern day harridans of NOW." <br />
<br />
Me: If you think all my sources are from NOW, you are incorrect.<br />
<br />
I would ask before feminism are you aware of who wrote history? How medicine was studied and researched and who did that research? Are you aware of who controled all most all the "information" you were taught? <br />
<br />
"This organization was started with radical left wing groups inside the Democrat party. It is pure politics and not some high minded help for all women." <br />
<br />
Feminists : Feminsim is the belief that the personal is also political.<br />
<br />
"If it were, there would be people from this group speaking out for women in muslim countries where we are less than cattle and have no rights at all. "<br />
<br />
Are you aware that feminism actually addresses these issues? And that it is a international organization? And they are in these countries and speaking out against this.<br />
<br />
"Or how about Darfur (sp?) where women are raped and murdered just for the fun of it."<br />
<br />
Me: You are aware that feminists have raised money for the genocide in darfur and many other african nations. <br />
<br />
Additionally they are active in getting women medical resources, having a voice in law making and their governments and have opened schools to help refugee widows and women learn new skills so they can economically support themselves and their families.<br />
<br />
"Or make it simplier and closer to home. Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachman, Laura Ingraham, Michelle Malkin are insulted nearly daily in some of the most vile and insulting ways. They are called nasty names, called stupid. even their husbands and children are personall attacked and viscious lies and jokes made of them and the silence from NOW and other feminists is deafening!"<br />
<br />
Me: Your aware that feminists actually have spoken out against this, its just not on heavy rotation within the media. <br />
<br />
You're also aware that feminism doesn't mean you approve of anything a candidate does just because she is a woman.<br />
<br />
If people or feminists have issues with candidates for questionable statements or behavior shouldn't they be able to speak out against them even if they are women?<br />
<br />
Feminism doesn't promote protecting all women from critisim, it promotes judging a person on who they are not what gender they are.<br />
<br />
"You should hear what I am called for speakng what I believe by feminists. It ain't purty, Magee."<br />
<br />
Me: And we've been called nasty things by antifeminists both men and women.<br />
<br />
Name calling is done by all people at some time...feminism or anti feminism doesn't claim to be the politeness police!<br />
<br />
<br />
"#4 (I am aware I am skipping some. I only have room and time for a few.) I do not know of the source of CC statistics, but that does not make them any less valid. I have seen statistics in numerous places over the years saying pretty much the same thing. I have also witnessed it in couples I have known over the last 20-30 years who divorced or the wives bought into this stuff." <br />
<br />
Me: It isn't fair to ask us to have blind faith in statistics you can't or won't allow us to see and evaluate for ourselves.<br />
<br />
We ask to be provided with them so we may evaluate them for ourselves, which is incredibly diplomatic and open minded.<br />
<br />
"There is a case in Colorado that was just recently resolved after 8 years of the husband held in jail on trumped up lies and charges by his feminist wife! They were both attorney's. He in criminal defense. She in Family Law. ie. a divorce lawyer. She filed with no know reason on his part. It was later discovered that she was having an affair with her law partner. She falsified income tax returns showing the husband maknig much more than he actually did. His alimony and child support became more than he made! He was late constantly and always short in the amount. She had him arrested for contempt. This caused him to lose his law license and kept him in jail. She and her partner fought him and kept him in jail, even filing depositions that he was a danger to the children and her if released. The child support kept adding up."<br />
<br />
Me: Please provide the names of the parties in the lawsuit. I tried googling this case different ways and couldn't find any lawsuit matching this.<br />
<br />
I cant , nor can anyone else, including you, evaluate what happened without reading the actual legal documents.<br />
<br />
Id like to know why you claim to woman is a feminist leader.<br />
<br />
"Anyway, this was on the news and a hour long report on it was done recently on TV, I think CBS. He was finally released when another attorney took his case pro bono and proved the IRS filings as fraud, the danger to anyone as false, and the other crapola proved as lies. The wife and partner are set for disbarrment hearings and possible federal charges because of the fraudulent IRS papers. She is also one of Colorado's feminist leaders, it just so happens. Anecdotal? Yes. I know, but it illustrates in extreme fashion what many feminists will stoop to."<br />
<br />
Me: No it actually doesn't illustrate what many feminists do, it illustrates what ONE did. The fact that it got so much publicity would lend to the point that this behavior is exceptional and not the norm. Why do a documentary on something a bunch of people do, its reported on because it is so extreme and unusual.<br />
<br />
"I watched one from double dip her husband that was outrageous no matter if he was an angel or a demon. It was totally unfair and uncalled for. So this is not hard to believe with the stats and knowing of it first hand."<br />
<br />
Me: I don't understand what double dip means. <br />
<br />
<br />
"#6 Most women are submissive by nature, but lets define what I mean and believe CC means as submissive. We are physically smaller in some cases by a little, in others, such as myself a lot. We do not have the muscular developement of men, nor the spatial attributes of men. We have little choice but to be "sunmissive" in these areas."<br />
<br />
Me: I disagree. Men and women come in many sizes. There is more variation within each sex than between them. This is taught in biology 101.<br />
<br />
"Let me ask you this. You are alone walking across a large parking lot alone and late at night or alone waiting for a subway train (I don't know your locations) or a bus or other public transportation. Do you not feel even a little apprehensive? "<br />
<br />
Me: Depends. But I ask you wouldn't a man also feel the same?<br />
And I would like to know who do you think will "attack" you ?<br />
Who are you afraid of? Obviously not women? Is that fair?<br />
<br />
<br />
"A little fear? I sure as heck do!" <br />
<br />
Me: What is it you fear?<br />
Who is it you fear?<br />
<br />
"I go out of my way to make myself as safe as I possible can, to the point of having Mace on my key ring and in my hand and a 9mm Sig Sauer pistol in my purse."<br />
<br />
Me: Hope you have a permit and can use the gun. I'm guessing you do and can. But caution others to learn how to use a weapon before carrying it around to feel "safe". <br />
<br />
"I'll bet all you ladies have Mace or some other defensive spray handy all the time."<br />
No. But I actually know a lot about self defense. <br />
<br />
<br />
"If you don't, you are very foolish."<br />
<br />
Me: So I am foolish for knowing how toactually protect myself without the aid of something I may or may not have access to?<br />
<br />
"That is one thing. Another, is most wmen know little or nothing about a car or mechanical things. I let my husband take care of all of that. I defer to his expertise. I submitted."<br />
<br />
Me: I consider this foolish. Basic car maintance should be part of any car owners education. If your going to drive a car you should have some basic understanding as to how it works.<br />
<br />
Me: Also choosing not to know about something and allowing someone else to help you or do work for you because they have more knowledge or skill in that area isn't submitting. Do you submit to your maid if you let them clean your house?<br />
<br />
Also your lack of knowledge could put you in danger if you got a flat tire and your husband wasn't there. <br />
You would be at the mercy of strangers.<br />
<br />
"How many Captains does a ship have?"<br />
Me: Your aware many different people operate and steer a ship? <br />
You know the reasons are because it would be very dangerous to have one person responsible and in control of every thing needed to "captain" a ship.<br />
<br />
"How about a marriage?"<br />
Me: Anyone involved in the actual marriage should have power and influence within the marriage.<br />
<br />
"My husband confers with me. listens to my feelings and thoughts on issues we have to decide on that effect us as a couple."<br />
<br />
Me: Are you aware that many of your antifeminist cohorts want a complete return to patriarchy in which all men are allowed solely to have to final say over all women?<br />
<br />
"We communicate, but in the end I know that he will know what is best for us in whatever case we are dealing with. I submit to him." <br />
<br />
Me: Would you trust any man to have this authority over you?<br />
<br />
What would you do if he made a decision that harmed your marriage? What if he continually did that?<br />
<br />
<br />
"we are equal and yet at the same time, he is the head of our family. "<br />
<br />
Me: I don't understand how a king could be equal to a serf. Even if the serf could easily live without the king yet the king could not do the same.<br />
<br />
<br />
"This is not only Biblical, but it also works very well when two people are honest and communicate with each other. "<br />
<br />
Me: Your aware of who wrote the bible?<br />
<br />
Your aware of how Jesus actually treated women?<br />
<br />
Your aware many christians don't practice patriarchy? <br />
<br />
"It has worked well for us for 33 years."<br />
<br />
Me: It works for you but trying to suggest it works for everyone isn't fair.<br />
By the way congratulations on the success of your marriage.<br />
<br />
My parents have been married to each other for much longer, and do not follow what you and your husband do.<br />
<br />
My grandparents were married for over 70 years and didn't have gender roles like you and your husband.<br />
Not that it matters. Just saying other things work for other people.<br />
<br />
Noone says it doesn't work for you. Maybe it does.<br />
<br />
Also you've not tried anything else so I would question if another way wouldn't have been just as successful.<br />
<br />
"I believe women trynig to become totally equal to men is fighting mother nature."<br />
<br />
Me: How is it fighting mother nature?<br />
<br />
Are you aware of the female role in other "natural" species?<br />
<br />
"It is not how humans are made up." <br />
<br />
Me:: Really? Why would you say this? Give examples.<br />
<br />
"women have their roles and men have theirs."<br />
<br />
Me: People shouldn't be assigned all roles just because of gender. Logically it makes more sense to allow PEOPLE to choose their roles ba<x>sed on their strengths and weaknesses, on an individual basis.<br />
<br />
"I have no problem with that and do not see why you ladies do. "<br />
<br />
Me: Because what makes you happy doesn't make me happy and I would never assume that my way would work best for everyone. I respect people enough to believe they should choose for themselves. Why not show us the same respect we show you and allow us to make decisions for ourselves?<br />
<br />
"we are naturally submissive to men and I don't mean like slaves or anything of the sort, so please don't make some Superman like leaps of incredible illogical assumptions by this statement. I know it is tempting, but it isn't needed."<br />
<br />
Me: It is pretty illogical to assume all women are submissive to all men. That's illogical.<br />
<br />
"#33 I believe there is no gender gap without reading Michelle Langley. In fact in some demographics I believe women cheat more, because one simple reason. Availbility."<br />
<br />
Me: I disagree. <br />
<br />
Langley isn't the only one who believes in the gender gap either.<br />
<br />
"You ladies know how easy it is to get with any male anytme you want, assumeing you want to. Men rarely have that luxury. "<br />
<br />
Me: Wow. I disagree I think attractive people have no problem getting sexual attention no matter their gender or sex. Also meaningless sex isn't something I see as a luxury . Neither is adultry.<br />
<br />
Also you claim women are naturally submissive but here you have men acting very submissive. As if they can't control themselves around women or have the character to say no to women who want to have inapporpriate sexual relations.<br />
<br />
<br />
"There are not that many women available to them for a quickies roll in the hay or with time for affairs because of other responsibilities."<br />
<br />
Me: You just said women cheat more, you understand the majority of these women would be cheating with men. So the numbers should be similar shouldn't they? These women are cheating with men, both sexes are participating in these affairs then are they not?<br />
<br />
"I know, if I guy wants t get laid, he will find the time, but can he always find a willing female that won't cost him an arm and a leg?"<br />
<br />
<br />
Me: I know this is was lilely unintentional and you'll accuse me of leaping but I find great offense in this statement. Men who want to pay for sex can use a prostitute. All women who want sex aren't prostitutes, they don't "cost" anything.<br />
<br />
"I know for a fact this is true."<br />
<br />
Me: I disagree. I'm not a prostitute I don't expect my sex to cost an arm or a leg. I don't use sex as a commodity, I don't think most liberated independant women or wives do. Its a enjoyable activity and something to be enjoyed by both partners. <br />
<br />
"Ladyblue, you are a beautiful woman by looks of your avatar and I am sure you are not looking nor are yu going to jum in bed with any guy who walks down the street an catches your eye for even a second. <br />
But, You and I know for a fact, you could if you so desired<br />
Not all men can do that."<br />
<br />
Me: Neither can all women. And why would they want to? Beauty isn't a defect in character.<br />
<br />
"In fact vey few can. "<br />
<br />
Me: Depends on which men.<br />
<br />
"You ought to see who I have said "no" to in my life. I'm sure you have also."<br />
<br />
Me: Men say no too. At least the men I know do. <br />
<br />
"It's pretty much just common sense. We, women are not thinking sex every 15 seconds as men are. If we have something to do after work we head for that, we don't look at guys and pick one up for a quickie. Think about it."<br />
<br />
Me: Some women do. Also most men don't do this either, its sad you think men only care about sex. Saying men will be men or boy will be boys is just as sexist as calling all women submissive by nature.<br />
<br />
":) The rest of your #33 question is unanswerable as no one really knows who has cheated on who unles they are in the relationship and that isn't always a sure thing. "<br />
<br />
Me: We have court records and have the accusations. I know the number one reason women list, neglect. Men sight irrecon. Differences. So techniquely cheating isn't the reason most divorces are filed. However we would have to go through allegations made by each sex to see what role cheating played in each divorce and then make generalizations from there. I'm sure someone has already done this.<br />
<br />
"#34. Now I want to turn this around and ask you to show me proof of this! I have known one woman who stayed witha husband wh cheated on her and a ton of men who stayed witha cheating wife. Neither is anything to be proud of and the numers aren't all that good for either sex, but your statment just does not seem correct frm what I have seen and read about. You named some famous cheaters. How many wives stayed with them? Jesse James? Nope!, Tiger Woods? Nope!, Eliot Spitzer? Nope! Only one I can think of is Anthony the Weiner, but he didn't actually cheat. He is just a weiny waggler and his pregnant wife probably knew that he was."<br />
<br />
Me: Explain Bill Clinton and his feminist wife Hillary who stayed!<br />
<br />
People and their behaviors have to do much more with their individuality than outside groups.<br />
<br />
"I can find misogynist remarks by idiots all day long if I looked for them. Conversly I can find misandry remarks by the truckload every hour of the day if I look for them."<br />
<br />
Me: And your point is?<br />
<br />
We've agreed it happens to both sexes by both sexes. <br />
<br />
"You forget I go into the ladies rom, just like you and I hear the crap coming from young women what will curl your hair without any rollers or curling iron! It embarrasses me to be a woman at times. This is not once in awhile, it is constant when you go to a club or a crowded restaurant. I hear it in grocery stores, and just about everywhere I go. Women talk. You know it and I know it. we talk about how we feel, what we think of this or that."<br />
<br />
Me: I would wonder do you think men don't do the same thing?<br />
<br />
If you do what is the point of this?<br />
<br />
"Quite often it is pretty trivial stuff, but at other ties it is cruel and viscious things said about men that 9 tmes out of 10 are plainly untrue." <br />
<br />
Me: Maybe its the people your spending your time around? If its trivial then why say 9 times out of 10 its untrue? Does it matter all that much if its just jibber jabber nonsense?<br />
<br />
"In my life and in my work, I was around more men than you or I could count in 10 years and off all those men, I was well treated by 90 % of them, 7or8% were non communicative, did their business and went on their way and maybe 2 or 3% were jerks or total a-holes. So it angers me when I hear women making these false statements and attacking men."<br />
<br />
Me: Yet it doesn't seem to anger you that men do it too?<br />
<br />
And of course you understand your single experience is ancedotal. Of course.<br />
<br />
"As for CC, I have not read anything I thought as misogynist in the slightest and I have read a lot of his repleies, comments and stories. If anything he tells it like it i and maybe it it is as Jack Nicholson said in A Few Good Men for some women. "You can't handle the truth!" "<br />
<br />
Me: I disagree our views on what is misogynistic are clearly different.<br />
<br />
If you would do independant research on many of the "studies" or "emperical data" con provides you would see it isn't true. <br />
<br />
I've not taken issue with his opinions ba<x>sed on facts even when I disagreed with them, I take him to task on his unfactual "facts". <br />
<br />
"Now that is not directed at you unless it fits. I don't know, bu I will say I see you repeating a lot of feminist dogma and and taling point and making some awfully long leaps in logic and falling way short."<br />
<br />
Me: From my point of view I see you doing a bit of leaping yourself. And your clear lack of respect for men in the area of sexual behaviors is misandrist in my opinion. <br />
<br />
"Just because CC Says something you do not agree with means he is against women voting."<br />
<br />
Me: <br />
No but him saying he is in agreement with comments of others who talk about women having their right to vote taken back does.<br />
<br />
"I have never seen him say any such thing. That was silly, but very typical of liberals. everything is either or, black or white. Sorry, not true." <br />
<br />
Me: Your quite black and white about your views. <br />
<br />
On the other hand saying someone should be allowed to decide for themselves what will make them happy and what type of relationship they want. Seems much more grey than your statements. Saying 9 times out of 10 women lie about men, that women cost an arm and a leg... all of that seemed very black and white to me!<br />
<br />
"One more thing, as this is getting way long. Anesty International was formed as a communist/socialist organization to put out propaganda to combat human rights atrocities commited in the USSR (at the time) China and other communist countries and revolutions."<br />
<br />
Me Where are you getting this from?<br />
<br />
"Do your home work."<br />
<br />
Me: Do yours.<br />
<br />
"If you notice the will condemn the US for say, water boarding a terrorist, but ignore the Chinese government killing female children because couples are allowed one child and a boy is preferred. "<br />
<br />
Me: You're aware that they in fact have made many reports against china for doing this? <br />
Are you getting your information on AI from Con? <br />
AI has asked for trade bans against china for human rights violations, your aware america still trades freely with them correct?<br />
<br />
"If a girl is born first there is a better than 75% chance she will be murdered by order of the government."<br />
<br />
Me: Its not the government actually, its the parents. <br />
<br />
You need to actually learn about the single child act in china. It allows for multiple children just at a high cost to the family. This is a communist attempt to make everything equal in terms of support from the governement, it wasn't intended to punish girls, patriarchy just invisibly lead to that.<br />
<br />
"Or they will ignore the atrocities in Darfur, Uganda, Somalia. Iran, Afghanistan under the Taliban. "<br />
<br />
Me: Are you freaking serious here? <br />
<br />
This isn't just false it seems willingly untrue. I hope your not intentionaly doing this. There is noway you are saying AI has no involvement in all these countries.<br />
<br />
"There has never been an American leader of AI or anyone friendly to the US."<br />
<br />
Me: Really? Your wrong your aware that the american branch of AI is run by americans. Its called Amnesty Usa part of AI.<br />
<br />
"Just like in the UN. "<br />
<br />
Me: Are you aware of what the UN is for? And requirements for being a member?<br />
<br />
"No American will ever be the head of the Council on Human Rights."<br />
<br />
Me: Haha. Yeah no american has anything to do with the geneva convention. LOL<br />
<br />
"Look who is on that council! Iran is one look up the rest. It will make you drop your teeth! Also Do you know the way the UN charter is written, The US cannot have an ambassador or leader as the Secretary General. look that up. I think you will have a lot to think about if you do."<br />
<br />
Me: Are you aware of how the UN is run and the requirements for joining? <br />
Are you aware of why leaders are chosen?<br />
For liking things not to be black and white your opinions on the un and who should be allowed to be members seems really blk and white.<br />
<br />
Where do you get your info from??????<br />
<br />
(Edit redone for con who can't keep up with dialog not addressed to him without qoutes. Some would say its Shabby to respond to a post not meant for you but I don't mind hope it helps)

Quoting people without quotation marks is shabby.

Jab, jab.

Hahaha.... watch out heaven...your going to get spanked and accused of flagging.

trolling trolling raw hide

Move 'em on, head 'em up,
Head 'em up, move 'em out,
Move 'em on, head 'em out Rawhide!
Set 'em out, ride 'em in
Ride 'em in, let 'em out,
Cut 'em out, ride 'em in Raaaaawhiiiiiiiiide.

I danced while I did a edit for con so he could keep up with a conversation that didn't even include him... I did it because I wouldn't want him tohave a reason. Not to have access to the information.

P.S. atri I have a lot of respect for you at least answering lady's questions, something I would point out your friend con didn't do.

I have noticed that some people who can't support what they have said with facts (because there may not be any), become very defensive and start throwing out accusations and jabs at the person who questions them instead of just admitting that much of what they said that can't be factually supported is just based on their opinions and nothing more. It seems like some people's egos are just too big for them to ever be able to admit these kinds of things, or that they may have been wrong about something. I don't think that they realize that when they do this it just makes more people doubt them and question them even more.

1 More Response

@con<br />
@ DenteAvvelenato : "So are you saying women having the right to vote is not a good thing?" That's outrageous. I never said anything of the sort, and you know it. <br />
<br />
Actually I don't know it. I know you've said you agreed in posts that follow posts that same the thing.<br />
<br />
Furthermore, the idea that modern feminists should get a pass because of women's suffrage is as ridiculous as saying we should praise to the sky today's Methodists because of abolitionism.<br />
<br />
Me: Noone is asking for a pass. Funny thing though how you want to select and choose which feminists are allowed to be feminists, you understand that womens sufferage is a part of feminism and that you constantly attack feminism as being destructive, you don't just attack some feminists you've specifically said all feminism. So you understand why you come off as less than intellectual. Right?<br />
<br />
"Women being able to own property isn't a good thing?" Another relatively ancient issue.<br />
<br />
Me :Really? Your view on history is interesting. You are aware as well that their are women who are still no able to own property. Or are we pretending feminism is an american only institution? Or will you then come up with another excuse?<br />
<br />
"Are you saying providing women with resources to escape abuse and report rape are not good things?" Plenty of rapists went to prison before feminism.<br />
<br />
Me: I suggest you try reading research on rape and the low rate of prosecution and conviction, it is still very low and was lower before. And feminism started long ago, not just in the 70's so if you knew about history as you claim to you would be aware that the idea of rape is "relatively" new speaking historically.<br />
<br />
I'm very glad there is more counseling geared toward rape victims these days. DV shelters hypothetically could be a good thing, but I have heard a lot about them that sounds pretty dubious. <br />
<br />
Me: What have you heard? From what sources? What are you doing to improve them?<br />
<br />
<br />
My viewpoint is not dependent on proving absolutely nothing good has come out of the modern feminist movement. It is an assessment of the overall net impact.<br />
<br />
<br />
Me: No your viewpoint and opinion only point out what you believe to be negitive issues which you also attribute only to feminism. Your posts speak for themselves.<br />
<br />
Me: Now you've been forced to admit that feminists have done good work to!<br />
<br />
"Have you ever in your "40 years of assesment" have you ever researched any statistics regarding divorce?" Yes.<br />
<br />
Me : Please provide some of what you learned and where you learned it. Because you need to do more.<br />
<br />
"After it took hold divorce rates skyrocketed. and the divorce rates we have today are NOT a good thing.<br />
<br />
And you believe it is fair to blame feminism for this? Patriarchy had no influence on this? Is it only feminists that are filing these divorces?" There is not more "patriarchy" in the era of high divorce rates than previously. You can't blame the increase of one thing on another thing that has not increased, although liberals do that all the time. It is not only feminists filing for divorce, but feminism has had a corrupting trickle down effect on many who did not become converts.<br />
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Me: Well then please con refrain from doing so yourself, you've said feminism is a minority view and its losing members ...yet divorce rates are growing. So please follow your own "logic" and apply it to this.<br />
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"And innocent women don't get dumped?" Yes, they do. <br />
<br />
Does that justify far greater numbers of honorable men being abandoned by their wives, often because the wives have gotten involved with men of far lower character than their husbands?<br />
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Me: Prove this allegation or quit using it. You've made this up, you know it and we know it. So please don't insult yourself by trying to pretend this statement is anywhere near truthful.<br />
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<br />
"Are you saying these men have no responsibilty in their marriages or divorces?" Nobody is perfect. Perfection is not required to diagnose injustice and treacherous behavior. <br />
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Me: You didn't answer my question. Please try to do so.<br />
One person can not be blamed for failure of a relationship just as one person isn't responsible for the success of one.<br />
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You and I know this and that's why your refusing to answer the question. How transparent.<br />
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"Excuse me? Did you post a study that said spanking was "good for women"... are you a member of a group called I like domestic discipline?" <br />
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I am not a member of any of those groups. You haven't seen my avatar on their member rosters. <br />
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Me: Guess again you are a member of I believe in moderate domestic discipline, unless you quit so you could lie about it.<br />
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I posted (without joining the group) a study that mentioned a biological basis for the desire many wives have for spanking. I did that because those wives were under attack from people like you.<br />
I don't attack those wives. <br />
<br />
Me :How do you think you effect their marriages by the way?<br />
Do you think posting advice on giving blow jobs to their husbands and asking for a play by play of the action is very respectful to those women or their marriages? <br />
I've saved the conversations you were involved with if you need copies.<br />
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Also aren't your posts generally supportive of those behaviors? And don't you on a regular basis post positively within these groups? <br />
<br />
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"Are you going to claim you didn't post on more than one occasion that women, all women, not just feminists but all women, are by their nature submissive ?" Believe me, I have never said all feminists were submissive by nature, LOL.<br />
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Me: no but you've said all the female ones were. <br />
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No but you've said all women are. I've saved those posts as well do you need copies?<br />
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However there are feminists whose favorite fantasy is for their lover to rip off their clothes and throw them on the bed or shag them against the wall. I can provide links if needed. I think at least a streak of submissiveness is typical in women.<br />
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Me: I can provide links to men who want to be dominated, does that make them "naturally" submissive? Or make all men that way?<br />
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You understand how ignorant you sound when you say that right? You are also aware your previous post says "women by their nature are submissive" <br />
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Do you need links?<br />
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"My sources ... usually come from international organizations like amnesty int., ,the UN."<br />
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ME: I posted several you didn't adress but edited out... interesting. How telling.<br />
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Hah. I have known Amnesty International well for decades. It is a leftist organization that in actual practice supported world Communism during the Cold War years.<br />
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Me: You understand how ignorant you sound when you say this correct? Your aware the UN is made of many different countries and cultures? But of course anyone who wants to spread goodwill to others is "leftist" in your book. <br />
<br />
<br />
AI did the minimum necessary reporting on Communist abuses to save its face while going full throttle against whoever was the target of the most serious Communist onslaughts. AI shrugged off the Communists' Hue massacre in South Vietnam.<br />
<br />
?????????<br />
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Me: are you saying that they only reported properly because they had to as a defense of why you believe they don't report accurate information? That is looney.<br />
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I would not trust the UN bureaucracy any farther than I can throw it. The latest thing to proceed from it is a report saying Westerners can live on $10,000 a year, and the rest should be confiscated and allocated to the Third World.<br />
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Me: Please provide this report. You are aware as I am that there is no such report. Are you aware of what the report is actually about? I am. Your "interpretation" of data is suspect and fallacious most of the time. This has caused you great suffering. I hope you find relief.<br />
<br />
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"Do you not print by in large studies done and presented on conservative male christian websites?" No, my sources are quite varied. The national sex surveys of Finland for example.<br />
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Me: one study of how many? Your aware finnish people don't acurately represent americans as you try to make them. <br />
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How many of your studies have come from christian conservative sources? Or the opinions of other studies used are from conservative christian men? <br />
You just said yourself you use many sources but only name one finnish study...you know how it looks?<br />
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"Are you saying feminist women aren't marriage material simply because they want partners not "leaders"" They won't admit it because they realize how it would look, but I think most straight feminist women want to be the boss. But you of course missed the point about why feminism makes many women ill-suited for marriage. It is emphatically because of the misandry it sows in hearts.<br />
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Me: you missed the point further you failed to answer the question. <br />
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"Funny, statistics show exactly opposite." I don't know what statistics you speak of. But everyone who knows anything about the attraction realm knows to watch what women do, not what they say.<br />
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Me: Are you talking about the "law of attraction?" I've no clue what you are referring to or why that would have any effect of actual statistics. Funny you don't argue that the statistic don't exist, you just negitate them with fallacy. Cute.<br />
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"My beliefs on things like abortion and the definition of marriage are very broadly held.<br />
<br />
Really? Isn't it you who complains that the exact opposite is true and that you blame feminism for the large increases in abortion, in gay marriage ect?<br />
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So which is it since you can't have it both ways!" <br />
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Good grief, your endless scraping the bottom of the barrel to gin up contradictions. I haven't talked about feminism in regard to gay marriage. There is no contradiction between swelling support for pro-life and the fact that many abortions happen.<br />
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Me: I'm sorry that you feel your statements are bottom of the barrel, this is one thing I agree with you on though. Maybe you could get more middle of the barrel statements and save us both some time.<br />
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"Even on EP, which is more liberal in orientation than society at large, I perceive the feminist women to be clearly in the minority.<br />
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Me:Your perception is wrong. Nothing new. Check out how many womens rights and feminist groups there are, and look at how many members belong to them. Look at how many different people have written stories.<br />
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Then do the same for your mra and anti feminism groups" As I said to Lilt that does not actually contradict my assertion that "even on EP, which is more liberal in orientation than society at large, I perceive the feminist women to be clearly in the minority", and I stand by it. <br />
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If you had asked me "are there more committed feminists or committed anti-feminists on EP?" I would have unhesitatingly said there are more committed feminists. That doesn't mean much. The fact that someone hasn't joined an anti-feminist group does not for a nanosecond suggest that the person is pro-feminist.<br />
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Me: No it doesn't but it does suggest that your beliefs are in the minority. And that's what lilt called you out on and I am continuing to do...your not the rule con your the exception.<br />
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"In the being you say feminism is a view held by very few people, now you say its got a "mega phone" and controls large parts of society? They have the full support of the media and the liberal-run educational establishment.<br />
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Really? Who runs most media companies? Men. Specifically white middle aged men.<br />
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And again I thought the feminist view is a minority view held by very very few people... now they control education and the media.<br />
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Which is it?<br />
<br />
And you just claimed feminism controls media, brainwashes the public, controls education. That feminist doctrine has cause harm everywhere.<br />
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Now somehow feminism is again a minority.<br />
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Again which is it?" <br />
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No contradiction here.<br />
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Me:Really? I suggest learning the definition of contridiction.<br />
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The media is run by liberals. <br />
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Me: Is it? Prove it.<br />
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Their gender is irrelevant.<br />
Me: I agree.<br />
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Either way they are fully aligned with the feminist movement. It is a typical error of feminists to assert that males will promote the interests of males over females when these days what we typically see is powerful men promoting feminism at the expense of men. I never said that feminism was held by very few people. Again you misrepresent my views. Not only feminists but liberals themselves are a minority, and both are not particularly popular minorities. Popularity and power are not at all the same thing. Education and the news media are not democratic institutions.<br />
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Me: So your claim is that minorities are controlling everything yet their views are still the minority? They indoctrinate everyone yet most people don't agree with them? <br />
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You understand why I think you need help if your claiming this?<br />
If noone listens or likes these views why do you claim these same beliefs and views have cause all the destruction you claim they have. <br />
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"So then your saying you are not intelligent. Okay this explains a lot." So you think your standardized test scores were higher than mine?<br />
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Me: As a matter of fact I know they were. I know that because I know what my scores where. But I don't use my scores to undermine your "intellect" I am just using the same standards you use to evalaute others and evaluating you with it. <br />
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"And is it me or you that is making statements about women specifically feminist women being to blame for the decline of marriage and children and families? Who is doing that demonizing?" Speaking the truth is not demonizing.<br />
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Me: But you arent speaking the truth are you? So once again I ask who's actions are demonizing?

Posted by Atri on Apr 18th, 2012 at 12:50AM
Holy Cow! First how do you expect anyone to answer all of these in one sitting or comment? I won't reply to all, but there are a few that stand out to me as pure liberal femisits pap. You ladies experiences as a female are radically different from mine and I worked in an industry where people were used on a daily basis and at the time I was working, men held all the power. Even so, I flourished and did well and knew who I was the entire time. 1. The divorce rate has escalated since the "second wave" of feminism got rolling in the late 1960's. All you have to do is look at the statistics and they are right there, No left ot right bieas, there are what they are. Is it a coincidence that at the same time women were becoming indocrinated with all the feminist hoopla and because of the ages people married in the 40's and 50's there were a lot of women re-entering the work force at the same time they were hearing and reading this stuff. In short women became more independent. You may say that's great and I would agree, but what I would strongly disagree with is the idea that men are pigs and bad and holding women back. some were, but not all. No man ever held me back and I was out there while you ladies were still in diapers. DA you were not even a twinkle in your mama and papas eye. Heck they probably did not know each other yet. My point ladies is, I was there and I was in college and then work force when all this was happening. I have seen them buring their bras. That really made sense and advanced the issue. :D LOL! But I also saw how women began reacting to men and it was not nice or a pretty sight. You ladies did not really learn from this as you have only read the books an listened to the modern day harridans of NOW. This organization was started with radical left wing groups inside the Democrat party. It is pure politics and not some high minded help for all women. If it were, there would be people from this group speaking out for women in muslim countries where we are less than cattle and have no rights at all. Or how about Darfur (sp?) where women are raped and murdered just for the fun of it. Or make it simplier and closer to home. Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachman, Laura Ingraham, Michelle Malkin are insulted nearly daily in some of the most vile and insulting ways. They are called nasty names, called stupid. even their husbands and children are personall attacked and viscious lies and jokes made of them and the silence from NOW and other feminists is deafening! You should hear what I am called for speakng what I believe by feminists. It ain't purty, Magee. #4 (I am aware I am skipping some. I only have room and time for a few.) I do not know of the source of CC statistics, but that does not make them any less valid. I have seen statistics in numerous places over the years saying pretty much the same thing. I have also witnessed it in couples I have known over the last 20-30 years who divorced or the wives bought into this stuff. There is a case in Colorado that was just recently resolved after 8 years of the husband held in jail on trumped up lies and charges by his feminist wife! They were both attorney's. He in criminal defense. She in Family Law. ie. a divorce lawyer. She filed with no know reason on his part. It was later discovered that she was having an affair with her law partner. She falsified income tax returns showing the husband maknig much more than he actually did. His alimony and child support became more than he made! He was late constantly and always short in the amount. She had him arrested for contempt. This caused him to lose his law license and kept him in jail. She and her partner fought him and kept him in jail, even filing depositions that he was a danger to the children and her if released. The child support kept adding up. Anyway, this was on the news and a hour long report on it was done recently on TV, I think CBS. He was finally released when another attorney took his case pro bono and proved the IRS filings as fraud, the danger to anyone as false, and the other crapola proved as lies. The wife and partner are set for disbarrment hearings and possible federal charges because of the fraudulent IRS papers. She is also one of Colorado's feminist leaders, it just so happens. Anecdotal? Yes. I know, but it illustrates in extreme fashion what many feminists will stoop to. I watched one from double dip her husband that was outrageous no matter if he was an angel or a demon. It was totally unfair and uncalled for. So this is not hard to believe with the stats and knowing of it first hand. #6 Most women are submissive by nature, but lets define what I mean and believe CC means as submissive. We are physically smaller in some cases by a little, in others, such as myself a lot. We do not have the muscular developement of men, nor the spatial attributes of men. We have little choice but to be "sunmissive" in these areas. Let me ask you this. You are alone walking across a large parking lot alone and late at night or alone waiting for a subway train (I don't know your locations) or a bus or other public transportation. Do you not feel even a little apprehensive? A little fear? I sure as heck do! I go out of my way to make myself as safe as I possible can, to the point of having Mace on my key ring and in my hand and a 9mm Sig Sauer pistol in my purse. I'll bet all you ladies have Mace or some other defensive spray handy all the time. If you don't, you are very foolish. That is one thing. Another, is most wmen know little or nothing about a car or mechanical things. I let my husband take care of all of that. I defer to his expertise. I submitted. How many Captains does a ship have? How about a marriage? My husband confers with me. listens to my feelings and thoughts on issues we have to decide on that effect us as a couple. We communicate, but in the end I know that he will know what is best for us in whatever case we are dealing with. I submit to him. we are equal and yet at the same time, he is the head of our family. This is not only Biblical, but it also works very well when two people are honest and communicate with each other. It has worked well for us for 33 years. I believe women trynig to become totally equal to men is fighting mother nature. It is not how humans are made up. women have their roles and men have theirs. I have no problem with that and do not see why you ladies do. we are naturally submissive to men and I don't mean like slaves or anything of the sort, so please don't make some Superman like leaps of incredible illogical assumptions by this statement. I know it is tempting, but it isn't needed. #33 I believe there is no gender gap without reading Michelle Langley. In fact in some demographics I believe women cheat more, because one simple reason. Availbility. You ladies know how easy it is to get with any male anytme you want, assumeing you want to. Men rarely have that luxury. There are not that many women available to them for a quickies roll in the hay or with time for affairs because of other responsibilities. I know, if I guy wants t get laid, he will find the time, but can he always find a willing female that won't cost him an arm and a leg? I know for a fact this is true. Ladyblue, you are a beautiful woman by looks of your avatar and I am sure you are not looking nor are yu going to jum in bed with any guy who walks down the street an catches your eye for even a second. But, You and I know for a fact, you could if you so desired. Not all men can do that. In fact vey few can. You ought to see who I have said "no" to in my life. I'm sure you have also. It's pretty much just common sense. We, women are not thinking sex every 15 seconds as men are. If we have something to do after work we head for that, we don't look at guys and pick one up for a quickie. Think about it. :) The rest of your #33 question is unanswerable as no one really knows who has cheated on who unles they are in the relationship and that isn't always a sure thing. #34. Now I want to turn this around and ask you to show me proof of this! I have known one woman who stayed witha husband wh cheated on her and a ton of men who stayed witha cheating wife. Neither is anything to be proud of and the numers aren't all that good for either sex, but your statment just does not seem correct frm what I have seen and read about. You named some famous cheaters. How many wives stayed with them? Jesse James? Nope!, Tiger Woods? Nope!, Eliot Spitzer? Nope! Only one I can think of is Anthony the Weiner, but he didn't actually cheat. He is just a weiny waggler and his pregnant wife probably knew that he was. I can find misogynist remarks by idiots all day long if I looked for them. Conversly I can find misandry remarks by the truckload every hour of the day if I look for them. You forget I go into the ladies rom, just like you and I hear the crap coming from young women what will curl your hair without any rollers or curling iron! It embarrasses me to be a woman at times. This is not once in awhile, it is constant when you go to a club or a crowded restaurant. I hear it in grocery stores, and just about everywhere I go. Women talk. You know it and I know it. we talk about how we feel, what we think of this or that. Quite often it is pretty trivial stuff, but at other ties it is cruel and viscious things said about men that 9 tmes out of 10 are plainly untrue. In my life and in my work, I was around more men than you or I could count in 10 years and off all those men, I was well treated by 90 % of them, 7or8% were non communicative, did their business and went on their way and maybe 2 or 3% were jerks or total a-holes. So it angers me when I hear women making these false statements and attacking men. As for CC, I have not read anything I thought as misogynist in the slightest and I have read a lot of his repleies, comments and stories. If anything he tells it like it i and maybe it it is as Jack Nicholson said in A Few Good Men for some women. "You can't handle the truth!" Now that is not directed at you unless it fits. I don't know, bu I will say I see you repeating a lot of feminist dogma and and taling point and making some awfully long leaps in logic and falling way short. Just because CC Says something you do not agree with means he is against women voting. I have never seen him say any such thing. That was silly, but very typical of liberals. everything is either or, black or white. Sorry, not true. One more thing, as this is getting way long. Anesty International was formed as a communist/socialist organization to put out propaganda to combat human rights atrocities commited in the USSR (at the time) China and other communist countries and revolutions. Do your home work. If you notice the will condemn the US for say, water boarding a terrorist, but ignore the Chinese government killing female children because couples are allowed one child and a boy is preferred. If a girl is born first there is a better than 75% chance she will be murdered by order of the government. Or they will ignore the atrocities in Darfur, Uganda, Somalia. Iran, Afghanistan under the Taliban. There has never been an American leader of AI or anyone friendly to the US. Just like in the UN. No American will ever be the head of the Council on Human Rights. Look who is on that council! Iran is one look up the rest. It will make you drop your teeth! Also Do you know the way the UN charter is written, The US cannot have an ambassador or leader as the Secretary General. look that up. I think you will have a lot to think about if you do.

Reply by DenteAvvelenato Apr 18th, 2012 at 2:26AM
I responded to you atri. I posted it as a new comment though.

Reply by knightrunner Apr 18th, 2012 at 5:24AM
Your marriage to your husband and my marriage to my wife are very similar. I agree with almost everything you said in this entire comment. You are a rare breed of women now days. Its an honor to have you grace our group. *tips hat and bows reverently*

Reply by BluTravlr Apr 18th, 2012 at 9:08AM
Wotta Woman!!

Reply by ladyblue848 Apr 18th, 2012 at 3:30PM
What does "wotta" mean?

Reply by ladyblue848 Apr 18th, 2012 at 3:30PM
"Your marriage to your husband and my marriage to my wife are very similar". That explains a lot.

Reply by knightrunner Apr 19th, 2012 at 11:15AM
Yes she is. A stronger more courageous I have never known. She has heart larger than the moon a soul as deep as the ocean. She is A great mother and a wonderful wife. I am the happiest man alive.

Reply by gumshoejane2 Apr 19th, 2012 at 11:30AM
With all due respect kr, you don't seem at all happy, actually you seem down right bitter and angry.

Reply by ladyblue848 Apr 20th, 2012 at 2:35PM
I was going to say the exact same thing gsjane. Most happy people aren't just focused primary on everything they hate, dislike, and disagree with in the world which seems to be KRs primary focus.

Con I may not often say nice things about or to you but, you should be commended for this! Atri should stay on ep if only for your friendship.

Reply by DenteAvvelenato Apr 26th, 2012 at 10:36PM
I agree lady and jane... me thinks I smell some bullship

All three of you women have been primarily focused on EP on "everything [you] hate, dislike, and disagree with in the world."

Huh?

10 More Responses

@con<br />
@ DenteAvvelenato : "So are you saying women having the right to vote is not a good thing?" That's outrageous. I never said anything of the sort, and you know it. <br />
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Actually I don't know it.<br />
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Furthermore, the idea that modern feminists should get a pass because of women's suffrage is as ridiculous as saying we should praise to the sky today's Methodists because of abolitionism.<br />
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Noone is asking for a pass. Funny thing though how you want to select and choose which feminists are allowed to be feminists, you understand that womens sufferage is a part of feminism and that you constantly attack feminism as being destructive, you don't just attack some feminists you've specifically said all feminism. So you understand why you come off as less than intellectual. Right?<br />
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"Women being able to own property isn't a good thing?" Another relatively ancient issue.<br />
Really? Your view on history is interesting. You are aware as well that their are women who are still no able to own property. Or are we pretending feminism is an american only institution? Or will you then come up with another excuse?<br />
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"Are you saying providing women with resources to escape abuse and report rape are not good things?" Plenty of rapists went to prison before feminism. I suggest you try reading research on rape and the low rate of prosecution and conviction, it is still very low and was lower before. And feminism started long ago, not just in the 70's so if you knew about history as you claim to you would be aware that the idea of rape is "relatively" new speaking historically.<br />
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I'm very glad there is more counseling geared toward rape victims these days. DV shelters hypothetically could be a good thing, but I have heard a lot about them that sounds pretty dubious. What have you heard? From what sources? What are you doing to improve them?<br />
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My viewpoint is not dependent on proving absolutely nothing good has come out of the modern feminist movement. It is an assessment of the overall net impact.<br />
No your viewpoint and opinion only point out what you believe to be negitive issues which you also attribute only to feminism. Your posts speak for themselves.<br />
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"Have you ever in your "40 years of assesment" have you ever researched any statistics regarding divorce?" Yes.<br />
Please provide some of what you learned and where you learned it. Because you need to do more.<br />
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"After it took hold divorce rates skyrocketed. and the divorce rates we have today are NOT a good thing.<br />
<br />
And you believe it is fair to blame feminism for this? Patriarchy had no influence on this? Is it only feminists that are filing these divorces?" There is not more "patriarchy" in the era of high divorce rates than previously. You can't blame the increase of one thing on another thing that has not increased, although liberals do that all the time. It is not only feminists filing for divorce, but feminism has had a corrupting trickle down effect on many who did not become converts.<br />
Well then please con refrain from doing so yourself, you've said feminism is a minority view and its losing members ...yet divorce rates are growing. So please follow your own "logic" and apply it to this.<br />
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"And innocent women don't get dumped?" Yes, they do. <br />
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Does that justify far greater numbers of honorable men being abandoned by their wives, often because the wives have gotten involved with men of far lower character than their husbands?<br />
Prove this allegation or quit using it. You've made this up, you know it and we know it. So please don't insult yourself by trying to pretend this statement is anywhere near truthful.<br />
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"Are you saying these men have no responsibilty in their marriages or divorces?" Nobody is perfect. Perfection is not required to diagnose injustice and treacherous behavior. <br />
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You didn't answer my question. Please try to do so.<br />
One person can not be blamed for failure of a relationship just as one person isn't responsible for the success of one.<br />
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You and I know this and that's why your refusing to answer the question. How transparent.<br />
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"Excuse me? Did you post a study that said spanking was "good for women"... are you a member of a group called I like domestic discipline?" <br />
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I am not a member of any of those groups. You haven't seen my avatar on their member rosters. <br />
Guess again you are a member of I believe in moderate domestic discipline, unless you quit so you could lie about it.<br />
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I posted (without joining the group) a study that mentioned a biological basis for the desire many wives have for spanking. I did that because those wives were under attack from people like you.<br />
I don't attack those wives. <br />
How do you think you effect their marriages by the way?<br />
Do you think posting advice on giving blow jobs to their husbands and asking for a play by play of the action is very respectful to those women or their marriages? <br />
I've saved the conversations you were involved with if you need copies.<br />
<br />
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"Are you going to claim you didn't post on more than one occasion that women, all women, not just feminists but all women, are by their nature submissive ?" Believe me, I have never said all feminists were submissive by nature, LOL.<br />
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No but you've said all women are. I've saved those posts as well do you need copies?<br />
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However there are feminists whose favorite fantasy is for their lover to rip off their clothes and throw them on the bed or shag them against the wall. I can provide links if needed. I think at least a streak of submissiveness is typical in women.<br />
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I can provide links to men who want to be dominated, does that make them "naturally" submissive? Or make all men that way?<br />
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You understand how ignorant you sound when you say that right? You are also aware your previous post says "women by their nature are submissive" <br />
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Do you need links?<br />
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"My sources ... usually come from international organizations like amnesty int., ,the UN."<br />
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Hah. I have known Amnesty International well for decades. It is a leftist organization that in actual practice supported world Communism during the Cold War years.<br />
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You understand how ignorant you sound when you say this correct? Your aware the UN is made of many different countries and cultures? But of course anyone who wants to spread goodwill to others is "leftist" in your book. <br />
<br />
<br />
AI did the minimum necessary reporting on Communist abuses to save its face while going full throttle against whoever was the target of the most serious Communist onslaughts. AI shrugged off the Communists' Hue massacre in South Vietnam.<br />
<br />
?????????<br />
<br />
<br />
I would not trust the UN bureaucracy any farther than I can throw it. The latest thing to proceed from it is a report saying Westerners can live on $10,000 a year, and the rest should be confiscated and allocated to the Third World.<br />
<br />
Please provide this report. You are aware as I am that there is no such report. Are you aware of what the report is actually about? I am. <br />
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"Do you not print by in large studies done and presented on conservative male christian websites?" No, my sources are quite varied. The national sex surveys of Finland for example.<br />
<br />
"Are you saying feminist women aren't marriage material simply because they want partners not "leaders"" They won't admit it because they realize how it would look, but I think most straight feminist women want to be the boss. But you of course missed the point about why feminism makes many women ill-suited for marriage. It is emphatically because of the misandry it sows in hearts.<br />
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"Funny, statistics show exactly opposite." I don't know what statistics you speak of. But everyone who knows anything about the attraction realm knows to watch what women do, not what they say.<br />
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Are you talking about the "law of attraction?" I've no clue what you are referring to or why that would have any effect of actual statistics. Funny you don't argue that the statistic don't exist, you just negitate them with fallacy. Cute.<br />
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"My beliefs on things like abortion and the definition of marriage are very broadly held.<br />
<br />
Really? Isn't it you who complains that the exact opposite is true and that you blame feminism for the large increases in abortion, in gay marriage ect?<br />
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So which is it since you can't have it both ways!" <br />
<br />
Good grief, your endless scraping the bottom of the barrel to gin up contradictions. I haven't talked about feminism in regard to gay marriage. There is no contradiction between swelling support for pro-life and the fact that many abortions happen.<br />
<br />
I'm sorry that you feel your statements are bottom of the barrel, this is one thing I agree with you on though. Maybe you could get more middle of the barrel statements and save us both some time.<br />
<br />
"Even on EP, which is more liberal in orientation than society at large, I perceive the feminist women to be clearly in the minority.<br />
<br />
Your perception is wrong. Nothing new. Check out how many womens rights and feminist groups there are, and look at how many members belong to them. Look at how many different people have written stories.<br />
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Then do the same for your mra and anti feminism groups" As I said to Lilt that does not actually contradict my assertion that "even on EP, which is more liberal in orientation than society at large, I perceive the feminist women to be clearly in the minority", and I stand by it. If you had asked me "are there more committed feminists or committed anti-feminists on EP?" I would have unhesitatingly said there are more committed feminists. That doesn't mean much. The fact that someone hasn't joined an anti-feminist group does not for a nanosecond suggest that the person is pro-feminist.<br />
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No it doesn't but it does suggest that your beliefs are in the minority. And that's what lilt called you out on and I am continuing to do...your not the rule con your the exception.<br />
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"In the being you say feminism is a view held by very few people, now you say its got a "mega phone" and controls large parts of society? They have the full support of the media and the liberal-run educational establishment.<br />
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Really? Who runs most media companies? Men. Specifically white middle aged men.<br />
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And again I thought the feminist view is a minority view held by very very few people... now they control education and the media.<br />
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Which is it?<br />
<br />
And you just claimed feminism controls media, brainwashes the public, controls education. That feminist doctrine has cause harm everywhere.<br />
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Now somehow feminism is again a minority.<br />
<br />
Again which is it?" <br />
<br />
No contradiction here.<br />
Really? I suggest learning the definition of contridiction.<br />
<br />
<br />
The media is run by liberals. <br />
Is it? Prove it.<br />
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<br />
Their gender is irrelevant. Either way they are fully aligned with the feminist movement. It is a typical error of feminists to assert that males will promote the interests of males over females when these days what we typically see is powerful men promoting feminism at the expense of men. I never said that feminism was held by very few people. Again you misrepresent my views. Not only feminists but liberals themselves are a minority, and both are not particularly popular minorities. Popularity and power are not at all the same thing. Education and the news media are not democratic institutions.<br />
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So your claim is that minorities are controlling everything yet their views are still the minority? They indoctrinate everyone yet most people don't agree with them? <br />
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You understand why I think you need help if your claiming this?<br />
<br />
"So then your saying you are not intelligent. Okay this explains a lot." So you think your standardized test scores were higher than mine?<br />
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As a matter of fact I know they were. I know that because I know what my scores where. But I don't use my scores to undermine your "intellect" I am just using the same standards you use to evalaute others and evaluating you with it. <br />
<br />
"And is it me or you that is making statements about women specifically feminist women being to blame for the decline of marriage and children and families? Who is doing that demonizing?" Speaking the truth is not demonizing.<br />
<br />
But you are speaking the truth are you? So once again I ask who's actions are demonizing?

""Some women express displeasure at the disapproval they get from other women for not joining in the men-bashing." Once again, where is the proof of this?" "where is the proof of this, where is the proof of this, where is the proof of this...." I'm not going to put up with this kind of treatment from you. I am referring to a significant number of women I have read online saying this themselves, and also in books, including Laura Schlessinger's. If you don't like that, too bad. It's a fact. <br />
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"How were the wives in the spanking groups being attacked by DA?" That's an absurd question since you were busy doing that yourself. She made nasty remarks toward them and called them "zombies". And don't ask me "Prove I was doing that to the spanking women" when I saw you doing it and you know it.<br />
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You have this idea that you take everything I state, turn it around into a question and you have discredited me. You ask me for "proof" of things I expressed in some instances as opinions by saying "I think..." Should I ask you "Where is the proof your husband would disagree about feminists and marriage? Why should I take your word for it? Can you fax me a sworn affidavit from him before tomorrow morning?"? This is just a harassment tactic. I will be back to respond more when I have time, but I'm not going to play your transparent game.

"I'm not going to put up with this kind of treatment from you." That's OK. Then just ignore me if you want to, or bash me, or accuse me of things. Whatever works. I was just asking and not demanding that you do anything, and if you don't want to provide proof that is fine. Sheesh. "How were the wives in the spanking groups being attacked by DA?" "That's an absurd question since you were busy doing that yourself." Really, so giving people insights and advice that might help them, based on my education, knowledge and experience is attacking them? OK - gotcha. "You have this idea that you take everything I state, turn it around into a question and you have discredited me." And you have this idea that I am trying to discredit you when all I want to do is find out where your information came from since what I have read says the opposite. I thought I might have missed something that I should pay attention to. you very rarely use words like "I think" to suggest that what you are saying is simply an opinion. Instead, and as I mentioned before, you regularly make very definitive, conclusory comments saying that there are "statistics" or "empirical research" or "reports" or "scientific surveys" to support what you say. All I am asking is that you let us know where we can find those things because it might cause a change of opinion about some things (so sorry - my bad). You can ask me about my husband, but what I stated about him is something that relates to me personally. Much of what you say does not relate to you personally. Instead it relates to feminists which you disapprove of. If you told me your wife sees you as someone who wants to boss her around, and who accuses her of discrediting you, harassing you, attacking people, trolling websites, and doing other things she has never done, I wouldn't ask you for any proof such as an affidavit.

I am not going to humor your pretense that your interrogation is about wanting to learn rather than a manipulative way of trying to discredit me. I didn't ask you for an affidavit. I pointed by analogy to how absurd your interrogation of me is. You didn't give advice and insight to RobetaSunset and others. You condescendingly denigrated them, and her response to you clearly reflected that. She did an admirable keeping her cool with you.

If your so quick to condem us for misrepresenting your views why refuse to answer our questions?

You don't have a sense of humor then do you con? (Wink)

ccc- believe what you want because I could care less about what you think about me personally anymore. When factual disputes turn into personal attacks like you have done to me here, I usually take the gloves off. But I am not going to do that to you because I always thought you were a nice guy, and even though we didn't agree on some things I thought we could still be friends and just stick to the facts instead of going after each other personally. I guess I was wrong so am just going to walk away now. Have a nice day.

Ladyblue, you are not honest here. I am the one who tried to keep things friendly between us, reverse of how you try to portray it here. Since the first time you saw me criticizing feminism, I have made efforts to conciliate you, but you have literally made no communication to me whatsoever except to reproach me on the subject of feminism. And it is just the facts, not a "personal attack" for me to describe your unpleasant and arrogant conduct toward my women friends. I

3 More Responses

It looks like tamytamy is gone. That's too bad. Maybe she will return under another name. <br />
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CCC - I would really like an explanation concerning these conclusive statements you have madel Please explain the following: <br />
<br />
1. How has feminism caused divorce rates to increase? <br />
2. How has feminism has had a corrupting trickle down effect on many who did not become converts? <br />
3. Where did you get the statistics that proves that far greater numbers of honorable men are abandoned by their wives, than innocent wives are abandoned by their husbands and what does this have to do with feminism? <br />
4. Where have you gotten the statistics that prove that feminism has caused women to act in treacherous and unjust ways toward their imperfect husbands? <br />
5. How were the wives in the spanking groups being attacked by DA? <br />
6. Do you believe women are submissive by nature, and if so where did you get the statistics to prove this? 7. Can you say for certain that women who have fantasies about being ravished by a man, may not also have fantasies about sometimes dominating the man, tying him up, pushing him around, or doing controlling and dominating things to him as well? <br />
8. What proof do you have that Amnesty International is a leftist organization that in actual practice supported world Communism during the Cold War years?<br />
9. "AI shrugged off the Communists' Hue massacre in South Vietnam". What proof is there that this is true? <br />
10. Do you believe that Amnesty International knew about the Hue massacre as soon as it started and somehow had the ability to intervene and stop what was happening even though this was not true of the US military, and the ARVN? <br />
11. Where did you hear that there is a UN report saying Westerners can live on $10,000 a year, and the rest should be confiscated and allocated to the Third World?<br />
12. What evidence do you have to support your thinking that most straight feminist women want to be the boss?<br />
13. What proof do you have that feminism sows misandry in hearts? <br />
14. "There is no contradiction between swelling support for pro-life and the fact that many abortions happen". How does the swelling support for pro-life relate to many abortions happening? <br />
15. Doesn't the fact that many abortions are happening suggest that the support for pro-life is decreasing? 16. Do you believe that all feminists favor abortion? <br />
17. Do you believe that all non-feminists support pro-life?<br />
18. Where is the proof that on EP feminist women are clearly in the minority?<br />
19. Do you believe that all women who are feminists broadcast it? <br />
20. Do you believe that the fact that someone hasn't joined a feminist group suggests for a nanosecond that the person is anti-feminist?<br />
21. Where is the proof that the media is run by liberals? <br />
22. Do you believe that if someone is not a conservative they are a liberal? or do you understand that some people are what is considered moderate?<br />
23. What is the proof that the media is fully aligned with the feminist movement?<br />
24. What is the proof that powerful men promote feminism at the expense of men? <br />
25. "I never said that feminism was held by very few people. Again you misrepresent my views. Not only feminists but liberals themselves are a minority, and both are not particularly popular minorities. "<br />
If feminists are not a particularly popular minority doesn't this suggest that feminism is held by very few people?<br />
26. What is the proof that education and the news media are not democratic institutions?<br />
27. How are feminist women to blame for the decline of marriage?<br />
28. How are feminist women to blame for the decline of children?<br />
29. How are feminist women to blame for the decline families? <br />
30. When have I ever said that only men behave unreasonably or unjustly?<br />
31. What proof do you have that a woman who loves a man, and whose husband loves her and treats her well, and who has good marriage, is going to leave the husband, take his children, and force him to support them? <br />
32. What women have admitted to that?<br />
33. You said: "Scientific surveys consistently show the male infidelity rate is not all that high and is not much higher than the female infidelity rate. I tend to agree with Michelle Langley that there is likely no gender gap at all." But what does that have to do with my question where I asked "How do you know that these men haven't done something to cause their wife to divorce them like Jesse James, Tiger Woods, Eliot Spitzer, and other men have done"? Just because women also cheat, how do you know that women who divorce their husbands haven't been cheated on? <br />
34. Do you also know that statistics show that men are more likely to divorce a wife who cheats on them, then women are to divorce a husband who cheats on them? <br />
35. Where is the "Empirical research" that shows that women are more critical-minded and less forgiving than men? And if this is true then why is what I said under #34 proven to be true?<br />
36. That proof is there that women are far more likely than men to bring utterly unreasonable expectations into a marriage?<br />
37. "the truth is that when men chat among themselves, trashing women is not on the agenda. I have read misogynistic remarks online. In real life, I have heard men say sexist things (not all that much), but I can't recall ever personally hearing another man express hate for or malice toward women." Really? You may want to read the women trashing comments men regularly make in the wife sharing groups, the ILIASM groups, the "I See That Marriage is a Trap for Men", "I Sometimes Wonder What is Wrong With American Women", "I Hate Most Women" , "I Married a Gold Digger", "I Hate My Wife", and all the other obvious women hater groups. "Some women express displeasure at the disapproval they get from other women for not joining in the men-bashing." Once again, where is the proof of this?<br />
38. Where is the proof that feminism blatantly and continually promotes misandry?<br />
39. Where is the proof that feminism has created greater critical-mindedness and hostility in Western women?<br />
40. "feminism has created greater critical-mindedness and hostility in Western women that tends to come to the surface in many marriages when no longer held back by the brain chemicals involved in the condition of "falling in love" as they wear off in what is now known to be an inevitable biological phenomenon". Do you know that it has been well documented that the "inevitable biological penomenon" of "critical-mindedness" and hostility "that tends to come to the surface in many marriages when no longer held back by the brain chemicals involved in the condition of "falling in love" is something that occurs, not just in women, but in men also? It is considered one of the stages of love and it usually occurs before marriage, but after the chemicals that are produced during the infatuation statge begin to wear off (2 months to 3 years). During this phase a person's faults tend to become more apparent and power struggles often occur. This is the phase where most relationships either end or go on to become long term relationships (http://www.mens-relationship-advice.com/infatuation-stage.html#axzz1sEcbismG).<br />
41.  "it has been quite common for feminists to expressly say to women  "If you're not happy, dump your husband" rather than urging them to seek marital therapy or engage in an introspective inventory of themselves." Once again, where is the proof of this? I have heard women say this, but I haven't seen any proof that it comes primarily from feminists. It seems to come more from women who have experienced unhappy, unhealthy, and abusive relationships, or relationships where they have been betrayed and deceived by the men they were deeply in love with. As a result they seem to become very jaded and skeptical so I don't think this has anything to do with feminism. <br />
42. "There are plenty of women on EP who were once unhappy in their marriages who found that changing their own attitudes and approaches was enough to save their marriages and stimulated big improvements from their husbands." Where all of them anti-feminists?<br />
43. "Women . . .who found that changing their own attitudes and approaches was enough to save their marriages and stimulated big improvements from their husbands. Women do NOT get advice to try that from feminists. " How do you know this? I can tell you that you are wrong on this one. I am a feminists and I have encouraged women to do this MANY times. Also, if you have ever read Ms. Magazine, which was co-founded by feminist Gloria Steinem, you would see that there have been articles that recommend that women with troubled marriages engage in introspection and seek counseling to try to save their marriage. It is very well established that men are far more reluctant to engage in marital therapy when their marriage is in trouble because many of them see doing so as being weak, "***** whipped", and unmanly. <br />
44. "Of course, if a man confided in me of an unhappy marriage I would be sure to advise him to become the best husband he can be, and I would not tell him "Dump the *****." Even if you already knew that he was the best husband that he can be, and that the wife was a feminist?<br />
45. "unhappy woman who doesn't love her husband and wants out of the marriage shouldn't be expected to stay in it just so the divorce rate won't increase." What is at stake here is not statistics but real human beings, men and children, who also matter and who feel much anguish. Women are not the only people who matter. There is a high suicide rate for divorced men. Children are devastated in many ways by divorce. The effects follow them the rest of their lives. The empirical research is overwhelmingly clear." So are you saying that a woman (or man for that matter) who is in an abusive or unhappy marriage should forsake their happiness and remain in that marriage just for the sake of the children and the husband? Because if you are, this is undeniably incorrect. The empiracle data is also overwhelmingly clear that children are devastated and negatively affected when their parents remain married when the marriage is bad and they are unhappy together. Children are very negatively impacted by being exposed to a loveless, tense, angry environment, regardless of the circumstances in which it has been created. They are impacted more deeply because they have not yet built up the level of defenses that we have. The good news is that they also tend to be more resilient than we adults are, allowing them to recover faster from unhealthy situations. When people stay in an unfulfilling, unhappy or even abusive marriage, children come to believe that relationships are experiences that entail suffering, pain and even a slow death. Children are like little sponges. If the spouses are not happy, in turn, their kids are not happy. The world doesn't need more married people for the sake of having married people - the world needs more happy people! It is very well established that two happy, loving homes is much better than one unhappy, unloving home. How spouses handle their divorce is often the key to how it will affect their children, and not just the fact that the parents are no longer together. <br />
46. If you feel that "feminism, as far as I'm concerned, is what feminist leaders and activists do and say on a continuing basis", and you "don't really care how many feminists are out there who aren't as bad as the overall movement; the overall movement is what matters" then why do you keep directing your comments toward, and attacking feminists? Also, do you recognize that there are various organizations that are part of the feminist movement and some of them are pro-life and Christian like the The Evangelical and Ecumenical Women’s Caucus, and Feminists for Life.

A lot of your points above, to which I will return later, amount simply to calling me a liar. I am not less intelligent than you, ladyblue. I read widely, have an excellent memory, and have learned many things over the years. I have no need to apologize for not having preserved all the references on index cards. Nobody operates that way. I will not submit to you in effect demanding that I do. That is manipulative.

I am not accusing you of being a liar. As I have mentioned numerous times, I am open minded and will often change my view of things if someone provides me with factual evidence to prove that what they are saying isn't merely an opinion, but is reality. I operate that way. If I cannot prove that something that I say has facts to back it up, I won't say it. And if it is something that I feel is important or that challenges what many other people believe, I will remember how I know that what I am saying has facts to back it up. And I won't accuse someone of calling me a liar unless they actually do.

You don't need to prove anything to these people. They are feminist invading an antifeminist group. We have nothing nor need to prove anything to them. There all just trolls.

They're all just trolls. Sorry

Well I guess you and ccc are also "just trolls" knightrunner since both of you are anti-feminists who have invaded, and posted comments in the pro-feminist group. Here we go with more hypocrisy folks.

I don't go into the feminist groups and try to take over their stories like was done here and elsewhere. And in fact I don't comment all that much in them.

Arty;
Calm down, go get yourself some ice cream and a hug.

I think I will too, because this crap is really starting to bug me.

Lady, if I were your husband or an associate of your law firm I would be honored! LOL.

I wish there was a "love" this button instead of just a "like" this button.

Asking you questions regarding your previous statements is manipulative in what way?

Lady I agree even funnier these trolls like to censor people when they come into antifem groups with blocking and deleting but become angry when they are censored! These people complain about ep jail and champion the right for a disscenting opinion to be heard, what they really mean is they want only their opinion heard

@con....You don't? Really? Give me a break. You've done it to me.

Lady its just that, crap... and its okay for them to spread it around and its okay for us to tell them it stinks. Don't let it bug you too much!

Awh did arty run away too?

Same here. On the rare occasions that I do comment on a feminists story its usually very short and to the point. I have never hijacking a story. Never these feminists hijacking every story that we post. Bats why I no longer allow them the privilege of posting comments on my stories. Yes posting comment on someones story is a privilege granted by the author. It isn't a right. The author can revoke any ones comment privilege at any point for any reason. That is the purpose of the block feature.

Thanks Dente, but just so you know - I don't work for a law firm (although people often tell me that it seems like I think like a lawyer which I really don't understand), but I know people who are lawyers very well. The profession I work in involves contact with lots of people who have relationship issues though which is why I know a lot about those kinds of things.

13 More Responses

" If a woman loves a man, and he loves her and treats her well, and they have a good marriage, she is not going to leave him, take his children, and force him to support them....once again, a woman will not divorce a man that she loves, and who treats her well. There would be no valid reason for her to do so....feminism did not ruin your marriage or your family . . . YOU DID. So please take responsibility and stop blaming feminism or anything else." This is very illustrative of what I find deeply ob<x>jectionable in feminist attitudes. Women would not behave unreasonably or unjustly. Only men do that. You are so wrong, and yes there are many women who do exactly what you say they never do. Many have admitted to it after the fact.<br />
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" How do you know that these men haven't done something to cause their wife to divorce them like Jesse James, Tiger Woods, Eliot Spitzer, and other men have done." Scientific surveys consistently show the male infidelity rate is not all that high and is not much higher than the female infidelity rate. I tend to agree with Michelle Langley that there is likely no gender gap at all.<br />
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" The fact that woman are the ones who file for divorce more than men do suggests to me that there are more mean, bad, abusive, or uncaring men out there who cause their wives to want to divorce them then there are comparable women because, once again, a woman will not divorce a man that she loves, and who treats her well. There would be no valid reason for her to do so." That conclusion is not at all necessary. Empirical research has shown that women are more critical-minded and less forgiving than men. They also are far more likely than men to bring utterly unreasonable expectations into a marriage.<br />
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"when I ask why you believe that feminism increased the divorce rate I never get an answer." Here's a partial answer. Although feminists constantly engage in manipulative propaganda about "wars on women" and raging "misogyny", the truth is that when men chat among themselves, trashing women is not on the agenda. I have read misogynistic remarks online. In real life, I have heard men say sexist things (not all that much), but I can't recall ever personally hearing another man express hate for or malice toward women. But I have seen testimony from a critical mass of women that these days when Western women converse among themselves running down men is a frequent theme. Some women express displeasure at the disapproval they get from other women for not joining in the men-bashing. In addition, women often are brazen enough to be trashing men in mixed company such as the workplace without any of the regard for offense caused that they would expect if the roles were reversed. I believe by blatantly and continually promoting misandry, feminism has created greater critical-mindedness and hostility in Western women that tends to come to the surface in many marriages when no longer held back by the brain chemicals involved in the condition of "falling in love" as they wear off in what is now known to be an inevitable biological phenomenon. In addition to that, it has been quite common for feminists to expressly say to women "If you're not happy, dump your husband" rather than urging them to seek marital therapy or engage in an introspective inventory of themselves. There are plenty of women on EP who were once unhappy in their marriages who found that changing their own attitudes and approaches was enough to save their marriages and stimulated big improvements from their husbands. Women do NOT get advice to try that from feminists. (Of course, if a man confided in me of an unhappy marriage I would be sure to advise him to become the best husband he can be, and I would not tell him "Dump the *****.")<br />
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"unhappy woman who doesn't love her husband and wants out of the marriage shouldn't be expected to stay in it just so the divorce rate won't increase." What is at stake here is not statistics but real human beings, men and children, who also matter and who feel much anguish. Women are not the only people who matter. There is a high suicide rate for divorced men. Children are devastated in many ways by divorce. The effects follow them the rest of their lives. The empirical research is overwhelmingly clear.<br />
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"I think you are generalizing, stereotyping, and pigeon holing feminists far too much." Feminism, as far as I'm concerned, is what feminist leaders and activists do and say on a continuing basis. I don't really care how many feminists are out there who aren't as bad as the overall movement; the overall movement is what matters. The leaders and activists have not felt pressure for moderation and charitableness from the followers. If you do not understand why reasonable men are repelled by the movement, I have to question how good you are at putting yourself in men's shoes.<br />
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"I don't think every woman should get a man. Most feminist women would be doing the male gender a favor by staying single."<br />
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"My husband would definitely disagree with this statement." Note I said most, not all. I hope you and your husband continue happy together.

Preach it brother. Personally Im tired of giving feminist any stats or information. (Im about to let my scots-irish temper show a little.) Feminist say "we can do anything a man can do only better." (all women are better than all men) You want prof that what we say is true? Then find it yourselves. Im not helping another feminist do a damn thing.

Feminists are impervious to evidence against feminist views, but uncommitted onlookers are not.

I'm not impervious which is why I have asked for evidence that has yet to be provided. "Feminist say "we can do anything a man can do only better." And here we have another false accusation. Most feminist don't think or "say they can do anything men can do only better". They recognize that they may be able to do some things men can do, but obviously not anything and everything. And they probably can do some things better than men can, but men may be able to do some things better too. My guess is that you can't provide the proof of some of what you say because it doesn't exist. But instead of admitting that, you get all uppity and defensive because your ego just won't allow you to admit that you might actually be wrong about something like tamytamy and some of us evil feminists are willing to admit to. Do you know how this makes you look?

I'm wrong about tamytamy?

No we are just waiting for you to provide the evidence.

They know how it makes them look they just hope noone else will notice and when we call them out on it they block or delete it.

@con Wait huh what? Who siad you were wrong about tamytamy and what are you wrong about?

4 More Responses

@ DenteAvvelenato : "So are you saying women having the right to vote is not a good thing?" That's outrageous. I never said anything of the sort, and you know it. Furthermore, the idea that modern feminists should get a pass because of women's suffrage is as ridiculous as saying we should praise to the sky today's Methodists because of abolitionism.<br />
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"Women being able to own property isn't a good thing?" Another relatively ancient issue.<br />
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"Are you saying providing women with resources to escape abuse and report rape are not good things?" Plenty of rapists went to prison before feminism. I'm very glad there is more counseling geared toward rape victims these days. DV shelters hypothetically could be a good thing, but I have heard a lot about them that sounds pretty dubious. My viewpoint is not dependent on proving absolutely nothing good has come out of the modern feminist movement. It is an assessment of the overall net impact. <br />
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"Have you ever in your "40 years of assesment" have you ever researched any statistics regarding divorce?" Yes.<br />
<br />
"After it took hold divorce rates skyrocketed. and the divorce rates we have today are NOT a good thing.<br />
<br />
And you believe it is fair to blame feminism for this? <br />
Patriarchy had no influence on this?<br />
Is it only feminists that are filing these divorces?" There is not more "patriarchy" in the era of high divorce rates than previously. You can't blame the increase of one thing on another thing that has not increased, although liberals do that all the time. It is not only feminists filing for divorce, but feminism has had a corrupting trickle down effect on many who did not become converts.<br />
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"And innocent women don't get dumped?" Yes, they do. Does that justify far greater numbers of honorable men being abandoned by their wives, often because the wives have gotten involved with men of far lower character than their husbands? <br />
<br />
"Are you saying these men have no responsibilty in their marriages or divorces?" Nobody is perfect. Perfection is not required to diagnose injustice and treacherous behavior.<br />
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"Excuse me? Did you post a study that said spanking was "good for women"... are you a member of a group called I like domestic discipline?" I am not a member of any of those groups. You haven't seen my avatar on their member rosters. I posted (without joining the group) a study that mentioned a biological basis for the desire many wives have for spanking. I did that because those wives were under attack from people like you.<br />
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"Are you going to claim you didn't post on more than one occasion that women, all women, not just feminists but all women, are by their nature submissive ?" Believe me, I have never said all feminists were submissive by nature, LOL. However there are feminists whose favorite fantasy is for their lover to rip off their clothes and throw them on the bed or shag them against the wall. I can provide links if needed. I think at least a streak of submissiveness is typical in women.<br />
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"My sources ... usually come from international organizations like amnesty int., ,the UN." Hah. I have known Amnesty International well for decades. It is a leftist organization that in actual practice supported world Communism during the Cold War years. AI did the minimum necessary reporting on Communist abuses to save its face while going full throttle against whoever was the target of the most serious Communist onslaughts. AI shrugged off the Communists' Hue massacre in South Vietnam. I would not trust the UN bureaucracy any farther than I can throw it. The latest thing to proceed from it is a report saying Westerners can live on $10,000 a year, and the rest should be confiscated and allocated to the Third World.<br />
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"Do you not print by in large studies done and presented on conservative male christian websites?" No, my sources are quite varied. The national sex surveys of Finland for example.<br />
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"Are you saying feminist women aren't marriage material simply because they want partners not "leaders"" They won't admit it because they realize how it would look, but I think most straight feminist women want to be the boss. But you of course missed the point about why feminism makes many women ill-suited for marriage. It is emphatically because of the misandry it sows in hearts.<br />
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"Funny, statistics show exactly opposite." I don't know what statistics you speak of. But everyone who knows anything about the attraction realm knows to watch what women do, not what they say.<br />
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"My beliefs on things like abortion and the definition of marriage are very broadly held. <br />
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Really? Isn't it you who complains that the exact opposite is true and that you blame feminism for the large increases in abortion, in gay marriage ect?<br />
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So which is it since you can't have it both ways!" Good grief, your endless scraping the bottom of the barrel to gin up contradictions. I haven't talked about feminism in regard to gay marriage. There is no contradiction between swelling support for pro-life and the fact that many abortions happen.<br />
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"Even on EP, which is more liberal in orientation than society at large, I perceive the feminist women to be clearly in the minority.<br />
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Your perception is wrong. Nothing new. Check out how many womens rights and feminist groups there are, and look at how many members belong to them. Look at how many different people have written stories.<br />
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Then do the same for your mra and anti feminism groups" As I said to Lilt that does not actually contradict my assertion that "even on EP, which is more liberal in orientation than society at large, I perceive the feminist women to be clearly in the minority", and I stand by it. If you had asked me "are there more committed feminists or committed anti-feminists on EP?" I would have unhesitatingly said there are more committed feminists. That doesn't mean much. The fact that someone hasn't joined an anti-feminist group does not for a nanosecond suggest that the person is pro-feminist.<br />
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"In the being you say feminism is a view held by very few people, now you say its got a "mega phone" and controls large parts of society? They have the full support of the media and the liberal-run educational establishment. <br />
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Really? Who runs most media companies? Men. Specifically white middle aged men.<br />
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And again I thought the feminist view is a minority view held by very very few people... now they control education and the media.<br />
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Which is it?<br />
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And you just claimed feminism controls media, brainwashes the public, controls education. That feminist doctrine has cause harm everywhere.<br />
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Now somehow feminism is again a minority.<br />
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Again which is it?" No contradiction here. The media is run by liberals. Their gender is irrelevant. Either way they are fully aligned with the feminist movement. It is a typical error of feminists to assert that males will promote the interests of males over females when these days what we typically see is powerful men promoting feminism at the expense of men. I never said that feminism was held by very few people. Again you misrepresent my views. Not only feminists but liberals themselves are a minority, and both are not particularly popular minorities. Popularity and power are not at all the same thing. Education and the news media are not democratic institutions. <br />
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"So then your saying you are not intelligent. Okay this explains a lot." So you think your standardized test scores were higher than mine?<br />
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"And is it me or you that is making statements about women specifically feminist women being to blame for the decline of marriage and children and families? Who is doing that demonizing?" Speaking the truth is not demonizing.

CCC said: But feminism has made things drastically worse. After it took hold divorce rates skyrocketed. and the divorce rates we have today are NOT a good thing. <br />
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You and other people have said this and when I ask why you believe that feminism increased the divorce rate I never get an answer. As I stated in another story about feminism:<br />
I think a lot of men who really don't like or respect women for some reason, and who have been dominant and abusive toward them, and whose wives have left them as a result want to believe that feminism destroys marriages and families (and has increased the divorce rate) because they refuse to take responsibility for their own behavior and its consequences. If a woman loves a man, and he loves her and treats her well, and they have a good marriage, she is not going to leave him, take his children, and force him to support them simply because there are laws that make that possible. <br />
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Feminists have fought for equality. Feminism resulted in women being able to vote, and made it easier for them to get an education, and get a good paying job. It also resulted in laws against domestic violence, and violent and abusive behavior toward women, and for men to support their children, and sometimes their wife after a divorce. As a result it made it easier for women to get out of bad marriages, and divorce men who were emotionally and physically abusive toward them. <br />
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So if you are a dominating, abusive, disrespectful or mean man, who treated his wife badly and lost her as a result I can see why you would feel that laws that have come into existence as a result of feminism, which made it easier for your wife to walk away from your bad marriage, ruin marriages and families. But the reality is feminism did not ruin your marriage or your family . . . YOU DID. So please take responsibility and stop blaming feminism or anything else."<br />
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I think it is a very good thing that feminism made it easier for women to get out of bad marriages, and not have to stay with men because they were financially dependent on them, and incapable of being able to support themselves and their children. A mistreated or unhappy woman who doesn't love her husband and wants out of the marriage shouldn't be expected to stay in it just so the divorce rate won't increase. <br />
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Here is what I wrote in response to another story:<br />
I knew a man who thought and behaved this way. He owned a farm out in the middle of nowhere. He completely alienated and isolated his wife from her family and the friends she had before they married. She had no access to money or a car, and was completely dependent on him. They only had a cell phone for making calls which he kept with him all the time so he could monitor any telephone calls she had to make and ensure she could not contact anyone he didn't want her to. He always drove her to the store or anywhere else so he could control where she went and when. He did absolutely nothing for their children and left their complete care up to his wife. He also did not allow birth control so she had been pregnant almost the entire time they had been married. He insisted that she give birth at home with his assistance. He would treat all their ailments and illnesses himself, or if he couldn't would make sure he went with them to the doctor and was there with them during the entire time. He justified his behavior by claiming it was God's will and if she was truly a Christian who wanted to go to heaven she better obey him and do what she was told. He would punish her in psychologically and physically traumatic and abusive ways any time she would resist or question what he demanded that she do, or what he did. <br />
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She finally escaped his abuse when he took her to a doctor (my grandmother) because she had cut her finger and it became infected and escalated to blood poisoning. Because he could do nothing to treat it he had to take her to a doctor. My grandmother felt that something wasn't quite right about them and she convinced him that he needed to leave the examining room for a short time, and the woman then immediately opened up and told my grandmother what was going on. My grandmother then helped the woman and her children to escape from the man by arranging with the woman for her to get her things together a few days later when she knew for certain that the husband would be out working on the farm away from the house, and then my grandmother went and picked her and her children up and took them into her home. She helped the woman in so many ways including finding her a job, arranging for her to see a psychologist and a lawyer so the poor woman could get out from under the husband's grasp and successfully move on. It wasn't easy. The man fought tooth and nail to try to pull the woman back in by making all kinds of false accusations about her, making her feel horribly guilty, and making the divorce difficult. She struggled and went back and forth emotionally, but fortunately she never physically went back to him or she probably would have been doomed. Eventually everything worked out, but she had to move far away because she feared the man would come after her in some way. Once again, feminism made it easier for this woman to escape the extremely abusive relationship she was in by initiating laws that ensured that she could divorce her abusive husband, but that her children would still be supported, and that she could find employment so she would no longer be dependent on that man and trapped in that horrid marriage. <br />
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CCC said: "Innumerable men who don't deserve it are dumped by their wives, far more than vice versa."<br />
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How do you know this? How do you know that these men haven't done something to cause their wife to divorce them like Jesse James, Tiger Woods, Eliot Spitzer, and other men have done. Just because the woman is the one who files for divorce that doesn't mean the man has been undeservedly dumped. The fact that woman are the ones who file for divorce more than men do suggests to me that there are more mean, bad, abusive, or uncaring men out there who cause their wives to want to divorce them then there are comparable women because, once again, a woman will not divorce a man that she loves, and who treats her well. There would be no valid reason for her to do so. <br />
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"Your feminist ideology keeps you from seeing that women prefer dominant men, and it's not something that was conditioned into them by the malign patriarchy."<br />
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Where do you get these facts? EP is the first place where I have encountered women who want to be dominated by men, and I know lots of women. <br />
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"You and your gals haven't made a millimeter's worth of "progress" in conditioning it out of women."<br />
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What makes you think they are trying to do that?<br />
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" I don't think every woman should get a man. Most feminist women would be doing the male gender a favor by staying single."<br />
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My husband would definitely disagree with this statement. <br />
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"They have a big megaphone in our society. They have the full support of the media and the liberal-run educational establishment. Their voice is constantly heard."<br />
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I think you are generalizing, stereotyping, and pigeon holing feminists far too much. As has been mentioned before, there are lots of different types of feminists and not all of us fit into the man hating, misandrous, extreme, radical category that so many people here on EP want to put us in. <br />
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"I perceive the feminist women to be clearly in the minority."<br />
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I don't know where you get this either, and as DA has pointed out, some of what you say contradicts itself. There are many feminists out there who don't yell through megaphones and try to convert other women. I am one of them. I would just like people to be less intolerant and more accepting of feminism, and recognize that we are not all androgynous, atheist, misandrists who want to have abortions, and break up families, and beat men down and make them submissive.

Lady, I've taken them to task with this too. Guess what they are always victims, its always someone elses fault, they are miserable men and thankfully they don't represent men, they are exceptions. Check out the groups more people claim to be telepathic than anti feminist.

I'm going to defend tamy a little she doesn't think men are better than women or that women should be slaves or that they can't have their own minds.... she isn't aware of what her new "friends" reallly want... which is patriarchy.... she will figure it out and be done with them.

Lady thank you for talking some sense. Thank you thank you.

You are welcome. I wish people wouldn't find the time to say all kinds of things that are questionable and then dish out criticisms and false accusations, and just run away when someone actually questions what they have said.

hate that victim mentality...

1 More Response

Tamy I am sorry we wasted our time. Enjoy being friends with the very same men that believe you by being born a female are inferior to them. <br />
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I for one don't agree with that view.<br />
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And maybe with enough time you'll see these "friends" for who they are. When and If you do you are more than welcome to share you ideas in the feminist because I believe in equality group at anytime.<br />
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In fact you can post their even if you keep these friends, and I respect you enough to say you can even post on why you disagree with feminsim on that group.<br />
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Because as a feminist I think your voice and opinion and stories are just as important as anyone elses.<br />
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You'll soon find that your "friends" do not agree with that.

I didn't say you should feel inferior. And jane lilt and myself all think women and men should be equal in marriage.
So does 777heaven and jerrica and even Penn. But if you ask knightrunner or Conceptual they will say women should listen to their husbands and are not equal.

Yeah.... women aren't idiots its not like we go out of our way to be mean to our husbands.. I get annoyed that some guys think that if you don't let them be the boss then you don't love your husband!

That's not what the complaint is. And there are certainly as many women who go out of the way to be mean to their husbands as vice versa. "knightrunner or Conceptual they will say women should listen to their husbands and are not equal." we haven't said women are inferior. If women should not listen to their husbands does that mean it's also OK for men to not listen to their wives? Just curious. I don't go around telling feminists how to do their marital sex roles. They are the ones who go around lecturing others on how they should do things.

I don't think she meant listen to their husbands in terms of hearing what they say and taking it into consideration. I think when she said women should listen to their husbands what she meant was be dominated, controlled, and bossed around by their husbands.

Of course. But the fact that she chose to phrase it as "listen to their husbands" was unintentionally revealing of her attitudes.

For someone who complains of being misconstrued and prides himself on being correct, you must be very dissapointed. I suggest you reread your posts as well as your buddy's ... I used the word because it was used by your buddy on more than one occasion..you then responded to those posts in the affirmative. Nice try at psychology, I suggest receiving more education before you attempt it again.

Also I chose those words so tamy could understand them, I had a feeling her understanding of words I would normally use might be lacking. Too bad you didn't recognize that huh ?

You are so far off base, why then should wives allow their husbands "lead" them? Why do you two want a "return" to overt patriarchy?

5 More Responses

@Con<br />
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Reply by conceptualclarity Apr 12th, 2012 at 9:34AM<br />
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There will always be women who have issues with men and vice versa with or without feminism. <br />
Agreed.<br />
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But feminism has made things drastically worse. <br />
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So are you saying women having the right to vote is not a good thing?<br />
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Are you saying providing women with resources to escape abuse and report rape are not good things?<br />
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Women being able to own property isn't a good thing?<br />
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After it took hold divorce rates skyrocketed. and the divorce rates we have today are NOT a good thing.<br />
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And you believe it is fair to blame feminism for this? <br />
Patriarchy had no influence on this?<br />
Is it only feminists that are filing these divorces?<br />
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Have you ever in your "40 years of assesment" have you ever researched any statistics regarding divorce?<br />
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What do you believe is the feminist view on marriage?<br />
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Innumerable men who don't deserve it are dumped by their wives, far more than vice versa. <br />
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And innocent women don't get dumped?<br />
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Are you saying these men have no responsibilty in their marriages or divorces? <br />
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Much more could be said. <br />
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Then say it.<br />
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As for the domestic discipline stuff, I had no idea any of that was going on till a couple of years ago. I have never said it should be standard in marriage. <br />
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Excuse me? Did you post a study that said spanking was "good for women"... are you a member of a group called I like domestic discipline?<br />
Are you going to claim you didn't post on more than one occasion that women, all women, not just feminists but all women, are by their nature submissive ?<br />
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I have only defended the couples who choose that course.<br />
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Really? See the above comment.<br />
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I think your sources of information are very biased, DA.<br />
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Really? Interesting comming from you. My sources are almost always numerous, meaning different groups doing similar studies and comming to similar conclusions.<br />
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Additionaly they usually come from international organizations like amnesty int., ,the UN, and the federal dept of justice.<br />
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How is it you classify that as biased?<br />
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Do you not print by in large studies done and presented on conservative male christian websites?<br />
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Your feminist ideology keeps you from seeing that women prefer dominant men.<br />
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Pick up a book, talk to some women that aren't in the DD or TIH groups, your so off ba<x>se here its absurd.<br />
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and it's not something that was conditioned into them by the malign patriarchy. <br />
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Present proof of your claim. You can't because it does.<br />
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You and your gals haven't made a millimeter's worth of "progress" in conditioning it out of women. <br />
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Funny, statistics show exactly opposite. <br />
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I never said anything about women being "unable to make decisions regarding many issues." <br />
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Yes you did. <br />
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I don't think every woman should get a man.<br />
What does this have to do with anything?<br />
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Most feminist women would be doing the male gender a favor by staying single.<br />
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How hateful and ignorant.<br />
Are you suggesting that being a feminist means a woman hurts the male gender? <br />
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Are you saying feminist women aren't marriage material simply because they want partners not "leaders"<br />
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My beliefs on things like abortion and the definition of marriage are very broadly held. <br />
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Really? Isn't it you who complains that the exact opposite is true and that you blame feminism for the large increases in abortion, in gay marriage ect?<br />
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So which is it since you can't have it both ways!<br />
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As far as understanding feminists, feminists are not an obscure, misunderstood, seldom-heard-from group. They have a big megaphone in our society.<br />
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You disprove your own claim with all the false things you say are part of feminism.<br />
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In the being you say feminism is a view held by very few people, now you say its got a "mega phone" and controls large parts of society?<br />
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How is this possible? Wait, logically it isn't. So once again I ask you which is it?<br />
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They have the full support of the media and the liberal-run educational establishment. <br />
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Really? Who runs most media companies? Men. Specifically white middle aged men.<br />
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And again I thought the feminist view is a minority view held by very very few people... now they control education and the media.<br />
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Which is it?<br />
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Their voice is constantly heard. <br />
Apparently not by you, as evidenced by your own statements.<br />
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Any intelligent person is able to get a very good bead on them. <br />
So then your saying you are not intelligent. Okay this explains a lot.<br />
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I think you've surrounded yourself with people who agree with you and you continue to demonize people for disagreeing with you. <br />
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Really? Is it you that constantly accuses me of being a troll and seeking out groups that don't share my views? Isn't it you who accuses me of voicing my opinion to others who don't share it all the time?<br />
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So which is it? Once again you can't have it both ways.<br />
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And is it me or you that is making statements about women specifically feminist women being to blame for the decline of marriage and children and families? Who is doing that demonizing? <br />
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And you and the feminists do not speak for the majority of women.<br />
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Statistics show otherwise.<br />
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And you just claimed feminism controls media, brainwashes the public, controls education. That feminist doctrine has cause harm everywhere.<br />
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Now somehow feminism is again a minority.<br />
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Again which is it?<br />
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And prey tell do you think the majority of women agree with your views?<br />
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Even on EP, which is more liberal in orientation than society at large, I perceive the feminist women to be clearly in the minority.<br />
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Your perception is wrong. Nothing new. Check out how many womens rights and feminist groups there are, and look at how many members belong to them. Look at how many different people have written stories.<br />
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Then do the same for your mra and anti feminism groups.<br />
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Example their are more people on EP that believe they are telepathic than there are anti-feminists.<br />
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Also you've complained in the past that society is over run by feminists. That you don't share knights optimism that this will change any time soon. And in fact fear it is getting worse.<br />
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I have edited my earlier comments and striven to avoid misrepresenting your views. <br />
Actually that's not the truth. You used to accuse rather frequently me as believing all heterosexual sex was rape and alleged I was just like andrea dworkin, which you meant as an insult. These comments didn't actually have anything to do with my views but of YOUR MISPERCEPTION of me.<br />
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I have just pointed out numerous instances where you have misrepresented my views in just the one reply above.<br />
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Really?<br />
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Do you still want to make this claim? <br />
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I would appreciate it if you would stop that.<br />
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I would apperciate if you would do what I have always done which is actually listen/read what others are saying.<br />
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I've been very observant of what you post and where you post. I took the time to try to research your views instead of assuming I "knew" everything.<br />
Try it sometime I think you'll find it liberating.

No I am arguing with conceptual not you.

Conceptguy says<br />
"Even on EP, which is more liberal in orientation than society at large, I perceive the feminist women to be clearly in the minority."<br />
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I just did a check on a couple of EP numbers...<br />
"I Am A Feminist". 554 members<br />
" I Am Against Feminism" 126 members

Funny isn't it MsRazzmaTazz that when checked all his facts don't ever add up?

EP wasn't around 20 or 30 yrs ago

"If you had taken this vote 20 or 30 years ago, providing we had EP then, then you would find a lesser amount." That may not be true. Feminism was very popular in the 70s, 80s, and 90s because equality still had not reached the point that it has reached today (even though it needs to keep going). Women were still repressed in many ways, and in particular in the job market. "Also in actuality there are more and more woman that are now waking up to the fact that feminism has failed them." I actually think women are not waking up to it. I think that more younger women are just accepting it because they haven't been around long enough to recognize the benefits that feminism has provided them with. They don't understand that their ability to make choices concerning their career, how they choose to live their life, and the opportunities they have are a result of feminism. They don't know how repressed women used to be, and how unfairly they were treated. They hear the comments like we hear in this group that promote the idea that feminists are none feminine man haters. They drink the koolaid and believe it instead of questioning it and looking into whether it is true or not. Because they now have the choices they want they often don't give it much thought and just go with what their social circle promotes. If the looked into it further instead of dismissing it and just accepting what they are told as being true, they might have more appreciation for feminism and wouldn't dismiss it as such a negative thing.

Not as clever as you think, Lilt. Your numbers do not actually contradict my assertion that "even on EP, which is more liberal in orientation than society at large, I perceive the feminist women to be clearly in the minority", and I stand by it. If you had asked me before showing me your numbers "are there more committed feminists or committed anti-feminists on EP?" I would have unhesitatingly said there are more committed feminists. That doesn't mean much. The fact that someone hasn't joined an anti-feminist group does not for a nanosecond suggest that the person is pro-feminist.

Con- Do you ever by chance look at the statistics at the bottom of groups pages? You should.

I have already addressed that.

Yeah most people don't care. Because they don't know the truth. Our job is to show them the truth. Not to debate feminist or any other irrational person.

No actually you haven't but what's new.

KR, you claim to be all about equality but it seems painfully obvious that both yourself and cc want a return to patriarchy! Patriarchy is NOT equality, it is in fact damaging to both men and women. Patriarchy removes a woman's right to choose career and family. Patriarchy saddles men with a colossal load of male expectations, and if you will recall back in the day most men were dead by 60! Why on earth would anyone go back to that???

Because some people just want to be "the boss" no matter what, and be dominating and controlling even if it ends up killing them.

7 More Responses

@lady isn't it funny noone brings up the gloria steniem qoute<br />
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"The truth will set you free but, first it will **** you off"

Dente, seriously, what are you accomplishing? In truth, this group is unwilling to consider reasonable alternative perspectives. Independent thinking is unwelcome here. All you are doing is stirring the pot. If that's what you want, then fine, just don't claim to be better than them.

"I have lived with out feminism and I have less head aches and have no problems with men either." And that could very well be because of the benefits feminism has provided. Your life might be far more difficult, causing you headaches, and concern about how men treat you, if it weren't for the strides toward equality that feminism has provided.

Your pretty judgemental for being a humanist. I really would like the freedom to post what I want where I want without being shamed. I extend that freedom to you.

My intelligence is insulted when I am told that that I do not have the right to observe the overwhelmingly prevalent tone and tendency of feminism over 40 years and make an assessment of the movement on that basis. I will make no apologies for doing that. I believe my views are shared by most women, which surely has a lot to do with the fact that a quite large majority of the women in the US reject identification with the feminist movement.<br />
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Furthermore, the dividing lines among women between strong and weak or intelligent and not intelligent are nowhere near being synonymous with dividing lines between feminist and non-feminist.<br />
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And all my life the women I have chosen to spend time with have been intelligent women.

And yet it is you is it not that blames feminism as the cause of why women have issues with men? Isn't it you that maligns feminism with the destruction of family and country? Isn't it you that on several sites is in favor of men disciplining women? Isn't you that promotes patriarchy as natural? And says women by nature a submissive and unable to make decisions regarding many issues?

Additionally your sources of information are extremely biased.
Your view of what is acceptable and what is not is extremely conservative. And the many morality issues you promote are held by a very small minority of the population.

Have you ever once considered that a woman has a right to live her own life. And that it is not natural for you because of your birth as a male to have any greater authority than her?
Because I will tell you that not many women and not even many americans would agree with that view.

You've not made an attempt to understand women or feminists. You've surround yourself with people who agree with you and declared them intelligent and at the same time you negate the large majority of women who are intelligent but disagree with you as some how brainwashed and naturally unable to use their experience to evaluate the same information and come to a different conclusion

The problem isn't with the malignment of feminism. It's that there are women who claim to be feminists who are not actually feminists. The worst feminists are the ones who claim to represent all of woman-hood by the simple reality of own a vagina and two breasts. It's simply not the case. CC, my problem with your argument is that you ended up helping those "feminists" by lumping all women who stand up for women's rights into one group. It's just not that straightforward.

There will always be women who have issues with men and vice versa with or without feminism. But feminism has made things drastically worse. After it took hold divorce rates skyrocketed. and the divorce rates we have today are NOT a good thing. Innumerable men who don't deserve it are dumped by their wives, far more than vice versa. Much more could be said. As for the domestic discipline stuff, I had no idea any of that was going on till a couple of years ago. I have never said it should be standard in marriage. I have only defended the couples who choose that course. I think your sources of information are very biased, DA. Your feminist ideology keeps you from seeing that women prefer dominant men, and it's not something that was conditioned into them by the malign patriarchy. You and your gals haven't made a millimeter's worth of "progress" in conditioning it out of women. I never said anything about women being "unable to make decisions regarding many issues." I don't think every woman should get a man. Most feminist women would be doing the male gender a favor by staying single. My beliefs on things like abortion and the definition of marriage are very broadly held. As far as understanding feminists, feminists are not an obscure, misunderstood, seldom-heard-from group. They have a big megaphone in our society. They have the full support of the media and the liberal-run educational establishment. Their voice is constantly heard. Any intelligent person is able to get a very good bead on them. I think you've surrounded yourself with people who agree with you and you continue to demonize people for disagreeing with you. And you and the feminists do not speak for the majority of women. Even on EP, which is more liberal in orientation than society at large, I perceive the feminist women to be clearly in the minority. I have edited my earlier comments and striven to avoid misrepresenting your views. I have just pointed out numerous instances where you have misrepresented my views in just the one reply above. I would appreciate it if you would stop that.

Con... you prove my points. Thank you.

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I accidentally deleted one of my comments here. Which in itself does nothing more than tick me off. But there was a couple of replies to my comment and they were deleted as well. Nothing negative in either the comment lr the replies. But still I would like to apologize to those that replied.

ba<x>sed on what you have written things seem to have gone in the opposite direction of where they were in the 30s and 40s when my grandmother was growing up. She went to a Catholic school in California which was very sexist (against women). <br />
<br />
The boys and girls were separated. The girls were taught in the old, rundown section of the school where the classrooms were dirty, and had broken furnaces, leaky pipes, and old run down desks. Their text books were old and outdated. They were taught by strict nuns who seemed to hate women and who would severely punish them every time they showed anything feminine about themselves. Even though they wore uniforms that included skirts, they were expected to wear gray tights underneath with knee socks over them, and saddle shoes. They had to wear white button down shirts with neck ties, and they had to wear their hair in short styles like bobs. The nuns would constantly impress upon them that men were superior, and that when they grew up they were expected to be housewives and baby factories and nothing more, and they needed to be subservient and submissive to a man who was willing to have them, if they were lucky, and if no man would have them they should become a nun. The girls did not have a playground. They just had an area were they could walk around or sit and talk to each other during recess. The girls' gym was tiny and their physical education class consisted of packing into the room and doing a few stretches and a few basic calisthenic exercises like jumping jacks, sit ups, and knee bent push ups for a few minutes, and then spending the rest of the time sitting on the floor and watching a health or cooking movie. They had to bring their lunches to school with them, and eat them in the recess area or in the classroom. <br />
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The boys, on the other hand, were treated very well. They were taught in the new, recently built section of the school. Their classrooms were the warmest, cleanest, and most modern classrooms with new desks, equipment, and text books. They were taught by male teachers who were actually certified teachers. They were also expected to wear uniforms, but they weren't as strict about how they could act or look. They had a large playground with playground equipment, and they were provided with balls and other equipment to play with during recess. They had a large gym with bleachers and a basketball court. During PE class they would run, play football, basketball, ba<x>seball, and other sports. They also were allowed to swim in the pool and take swimming lessons, but the girls were not allowed to go anywhere near the pool. At lunch time they were provided with a variety of dishes to choose from in the "boys" cafeteria. They also had the option of being provided with breakfast in the cafeteria for a small fee, but the girls were never given this option, and were not allowed in the "boys" cafeteria at any time. The boys were treated so much better than the girls in so many obvious and unbelievable ways. The girls were told that this was necessary so that the boys could grow up to be smart, strong, capable men who could care for their families, and it was unnecessary for the girls to be treated as well as the boys because they wouldn't need to be smart or strong since they would just grow up to be wives and mothers who would be supported by their smart, strong husbands. The boys looked down on the girls and would often make fun of them when they encountered them, regularly calling them dumb and ugly, among other things. <br />
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When the bishop would come to visit in his fancy car the girls were expected to clean up the school and get things ready while the boys attended their regular classes and did nothing to prepare for the bishop's arrival except for wear their best uniform on the day he came, including their jacket, and greet him when he arrived. <br />
<br />
I often wonder if the women who attended these kinds of schools are the ones who ended up being teachers like the ones described in this story. Sometimes the backlash for things that have occurred in the past can be severe. My grandmother chose to defy and rebel against the nuns' attempted programming by teaching herself a great deal, and then going on to attend college and medical school, and become a doctor. She met my grandfather who is a wonderful man who adored and admired her and encouraged her, and my mother, to fight for what they wanted, and never feel downtrodden or limited. He has always been a supporter of feminism.

My great grandparents (my grandmother's parents) were fairly wealthy and the Catholic school she attended was an upper class private school that my great grandparents paid a pretty large amount for her to attend. In the 30s and 40s many people felt that children received a better education in a private school than they would receive in a public school which was part of the reason my great grandparents sent my grandmother to a Catholic school. Back then poor children generally could not attend Catholic schools because their parents couldn't afford to pay for them to go to a Catholic school when they could send them to a public school for free. My great grandparents sent my grandmother to that Catholic school for most of her youth because it was the only one in their area that was highly rated. When she was a sophomore in high school they sent her to another Catholic school which had just opened and was much better than the previous one she had attended, except they still did not treat the girls nearly as well as they treated the boys. Neither one of the schools she attended taught the boys trades or the girls how to be debutantes. They only taught the basics of education like reading, writing, and arithmetic. I can't imagine how nuns would be able to teach a young woman a trade, or how to be a "proper woman", and walk or act at a dinner party since they are never involved in anything that would involve that type of behavior. The same goes for priests, or priests in training, teaching young men trades. That just doesn't make any sense. That might have been the case if my grandmother had gone to charm school or a trade school, but those types of schools weren't around where she lived in the 30s and 40s. I agree that you should be able to choose what you want to be even if what you want to be is a wife and mother. No one should ever put you down for making that choice, and that is part of what feminism is about. The right to choose in many areas. All women should be able to choose if they want to work, and what work they want to do if they want to work, or if they want to stay home and be a wife and mom, or if they want to do both. That is one of the things that feminism created . . . the right to choose. Before feminism came about women were expected to be wives and mothers, and nothing else. Some women, whether they are feminists or not, resent the way they were treated by society, or their fathers, brothers, boyfriends, or other men in their lives, and they will act in an unfair and biased manner as a result. I agree that backlash is a problem and that everyone (men and women) should be treated equally. Unfortunately that still does not happen for both sexes, but feminism should not be blamed because some women treat men unequally or badly, just like masculinity should not be blamed because some men treat women unequally or badly.

"I know that the Catholic Church was one of the worst places for kids in a school."

I find this offensive on many levels. The main reason, because this just isn't true.

I know that in my grandmother's case the Catholic school that she went to was a bad place for girls in terms of how they were treated as discussed above. But as far as education went, it provided a better education than the public school did where she lived.

Uh, I think you are infringing upon the meaning of the 9th Commandment. What you described did not happen the way explained it - absolutely no way. Then tossing in Georgia as to where this occurred? Your fundamentalist church preachings have convinced you that a woman MUST walk behind her husband. It confounds me that in this day and time that there are grown men who are still afraid of a woman that can make up her own mind and that does no need a man to provide monetary support.

You just answered to exactly what I hypothesized. Given your age as you have listed on here. you have not been out of high school very long - anywhere from 4 to 7 years. Any teacher/school system that would allow what you described in the past 25 years would have been fired or reprimanded. I also hypothesize that given your experiences with "liberal" teachers and schools, that you will be home-schooling your children. Your words "let the man have the final decision" is about as fundamentalist as it can get. I was raised as Southern Baptist, and am a firm believer of the word of God. However, God gave me the ability to think for myself, just as he did for my mother, sisters, wife and daughter. My Dad would rollover in his grave if he knew one of them would allow herself to give "the last word" to her husband, just because he was the male. I know the truth, and I'm certainly no fool. You were seeing things of those teachers just as if you were looking through the eyes of your father and listening through his ears too. The beliefs of some churches and their followers is the very reason that many young people are not attending church today. It has nothing to do with liberal this or that, it is the absolute hate being preached and the daily dictating of the lives of the followers of the church leaders. I'm going to do something that you have heard of, I'm going to give you the last word. Not because of my graciousness, but because I'm tired of your words.

One last comment before I leave. I posted this in one of Dente's stories..<br />
<br />
Have you considered the possibility that the teacher mentioned here isn't really a feminist, but instead a bit of a man-hater because she was continually put down by her father? Man-hating is as much a result of ignorant and arrogant men as it is from other man-haters.

I'm afraid you missed my point. There's frankly a difference between being a "feminist" and a "man-hater." In truth, women would not be women without men. The revers is also true. A true feminist does not promote women over men, but ensures a balanced approach. "Man-haters" will over-compensate for perceived injustices by treating boys and men badly. The teacher sounds not like a feminist, but a man-hater.

Exactly tamy. One in the same.

knight... you disappoint me

I also rate up Penn and agree with what he says. Feminists and man haters are not one in the same and these kinds of comments show how small minded some people can be. I am a perfect example of why you are wrong on this point. I am a feminist and I love and respect many men. I particularly love good, intelligent, kind hearted, open minded men who don't generalize about women or see them as inferior or threatening, but instead embrace their feminism and individuality, and treat them as equals and partners. I don't like men who see women as inferior and are degrading, disrespectful, and condescending to them. I also don't like women who treat other women, and/or men this way. I know Christian women who are man haters. I know a couple of lesbians who are true man haters, but they ARE NOT feminists. In fact there is a lot about feminism that they don't like or approve of. So please let go of your stereotypes, open up your mind, and stop generalizing about, and pigeon holing people, and putting them into boxes, and thinking all people who have certain beliefs, and support certain causes and ideas, are the same. I know Christian women who are pro-choice, feminists, shared wives, swingers, lesbians, dominating women, and man haters. I also know anti-feminists who are this way. I also know feminists who are pro-life, monogamous, prudish, feminine, stay at home moms, housewives, and man lovers. You just can't generalize about people and put them into certain categories because there will always be people who come along who show that they are the opposite of your stereotypical beliefs and therefore prove that you are wrong, and that you really should open up and change your thinking or you will look very unintelligent to some people.

penn ur catching on ...

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Just a quick aside: It is a common practice among many of the feminists haters to delete comments. We have the right to censor here on EP, I know. But such systematic intolerance among your kind is revealing.<br />
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I've been a member of this site since 2008. And you guys delete comments a thousand times more than anybody else has ever done, and I hang out in political groups!

Hahaha...I miss Bill in VA.

Perfect example! That man was against everything, wasn't he? But never ever once deleted a comment

I know because: a) its happened to me quite a few times. . b) I've seen many complaints about others comments being deleted.

So very true. It has become obvious that they delete comments that point out how incorrect and biased their opinions are because they want people to think that what they say is correct, and open minded. What they don't realize is that most people are not as ignorant as many of them obviously are.

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Tamytamy,<br />
Christians CAN be feminists! Christians SHOULD believe in the equal value of ALL humans. Christians can and do live in HAPPY marriages where husbands and wives SHARE responsibilities and decision making. In a happy marriage both team members are EQUALLY valuable.<br />
The Lord DID value women, He did speak to women, He did save women and women played a very IMPORTANT role right around the time of his crucifixion and resurrection. The HUMANITY of women was highlighted by the Lord. The good Lord elevated woman to human status at a time when women were considered subhuman. As a human female you have the same rights as a human male, you are just as valuable, just as capable, just as worthy.

Jane... don't you love the way the teachings of jesus just fall by the wayside when someone else doesn't agree with a backwards opinion?

I sent her a bunch of pro life feminist info as well as christain feminist info. She was super christian and didn't thank me she deleted it.

Haha, I have noticed! People become so defensive and don't or can't admit when they may be wrong.

Are you crushed by her response and will you lose sleep over it?

No I will just call her out on it and laugh at your comment.

Good idea, 777heaven. That would require the stigmatizing of a movement which routinely proclaims one gender to be goddesses and the other gender to be animals.

You can't deal with feminist rationally. The definition of feminism is irrational behavior olanf thought.

Feminism does no such thing Con. And you know it.

The gender wage gap lie has been debunked several times. Except for a few studies suggesting that men are payed less than women.

And using that tired old line of "why don't you want equality for women?" is getting old real quick. You either have no idea what you are talking about or you want to start and argument.

KR:
Patriarchy is NOT equality! Patriarchy is the epitome of "a man's world"! You have a daughter, do you really want her to live in " a man's world"? Isn't it wonderful that your daughter has as many opportunities and freedoms and choices as her male counterparts! As the father of a girl, you should be infinitely grateful for the many freedoms your daughter enjoys because of the valiant struggles of feminists past and present.

Applauding for heaven!

"a movement which routinely proclaims one gender to be goddesses and the other gender to be animals." Are you serious???? My God (not goddess) I am so sick of hearing this false, ridiculous crap here. Do you have any idea how seriously this is affecting your credibility? People who make these kinds of outrageous, obviously biased claims just to make a group they don't agree with look bad just make themselves look even worse to anyone with half a brain.

Ladyblue, you have your head in the sand.

And I think that you obviously have your head somewhere which blocks your rational view of things.

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why do you continue to delete my simple question?

and my answer to it! 2:25 for me!!

YEA I SEE MANY COMMENTS GONE

I'm not sure WHERE you grew up (judging from your poor english I don't think it would be too arrogant of me to assume it is not your native language), but in America if there WERE any teachers who did anything of the sort that you just mentioned, one student complaining to a higher authority and they would be in deep ****. But for some reason I don't actually think any of this really happened at all.

The troll train rolls on. "in America if there WERE any teachers who did anything of the sort that you just mentioned, one student complaining to a higher authority and they would be in deep ****." See my reply to 777heaven. "(judging from your poor english I don't think it would be too arrogant of me to assume it is not your native language" Your fellow lefties her age on EP are typically no more proficient than this.

eh, conceptualclarity, I'd rather debate a wall than you. It listens better, is more grounded in reality, and doesn't attack me when I express my opinions :)

Hey tamytamy...do you have ANY idea where my reply to you went?!?!?! I spent a lot of time on that! (i KNEW you'd like it!)

what is bullshit? this story? yeah, i agree.

well i called her/him out on being a fake and on this story being a fake. Though I'm not sure why my OTHER comment about TN's new law promoting "alternative creation theories" was deleted as well.

If you saved it you can repost it on the fem equality post

if you saved it repost it on the fem equlity post

@ shannonymous : "doesn't attack me when I express my opinions" Why should I apologize for rebuking you for calling her a liar? By the way, if you recall the previous time we crossed paths I expressed sympathy for you being in EP Jail. "well i called her/him out on being a fake and on this story being a fake." There's no more evidence of that than there is that you're a fake.

dente...i didnt save it.

cc...first of all, you DIDN'T!! I see no rebuking of me calling him a fake in your last post. Second of all, great, thanks for that, it honestly slipped my mind, (i am a woman afterall) and I guess that means I owe you some apology?? I don't care if you loaned me $50 in the past, being hateful toward women is not a deal that you can negotiate with people on like "I did this for you in the past, so you should be nice to me now that I'm dissing you and people like you." no, just no.

Feminist lie no. 835, repeated ad nauseam : criticizing feminism or a feminist is "being hateful toward women."

only when that criticism is based in hate itself. If you have a real problem with feminists and the things we do, then I will have no problem hearing you out, but if it is just an attack on ME or on my belief in gender equality then yes, it IS like you are just spreading around the same old same old. And it is not quite fair or at all attractive when someone just wants to spout of their ill-informed opinions and does not want to hear the other person's argument in return.

It is and here is why, feminism is a largely female group, was the first group to give woman a voice in the global arena and political agendas in many countries. It is seen as offensive to women because it is offensive to women.

Shannonymous, I have not attacked you or anybody else for belief in gender equality. My opinions are not at all-informed. I knew a lot about feminism before your parents ever met. I wouldn't call showing up here and calling tamytamy a liar and saying she's really a man presenting an argument in return. That is the kind of behavior that on EP will typically get one blocked and deleted.

Con Lie #8888643
Pretending that being rude to a woman who is a feminist isn't being rude to a woman.

Really? So someone else named conceptualclarity is the one who joined a group called I am anti feminist because I believe in equality? And it was a difffernt CC that posted that feminism is a hate group and doesn't promote equality?

You've told so many stories you can't keep them straight.

ha ha cc, i agree your comments AREN'T at all informed :D and I'm not just calling her a man because she is antifeminist (like i have said plenty, there are women anti-feminists as well)...It is just very obvious to me that he is one of the MANY (usually very conservative for some reason) men who pose as women online (i suppose because they get off on it for some psychological reason, maybe because being a woman is so taboo for them!)

And dente, thanks for the support, and the laughs :) (i wish we could 'like' comment replies and i'd 'like' yours)

Criticism of feminists is seen as "offensive to women" by self-interested feminists who wish to gain exemption for their movement from appropriate scrutiny and accountability through dishonestly manipulating attitudes."Con Lie #8888643 Pretending that being rude to a woman who is a feminist isn't being rude to a woman." I was just messaging with someone who, rather than finding me rude, admired how diplomatic I was with you. As for "being rude to a woman", it is not a transgression against women in general, and it is a transgression that PoisonedTooth, who revels in being a "mean girl", has been guilty of on EP a great deal more than has conceptualclarity. Feminism does not promotes equality; it promotes preferential hiring, preferential college admissions, women only colleges while seeking to eliminate men only colleges, de facto discriminatory laws like sexual harassment laws, leading to a female reporter who habitually gawked at male private parts in the locker room claiming that SHE was a victim requiring major compensation, female-only scholarships and no male-only scholarships, nonpunishment of women who murder their babies, and nonpunishment of women who make grave false accusations against men. Yes, men's rights is for equality and feminism is for inequality.

i agree that criticizing A feminist or AN act of feminism is perfectly healthy and is not a transgression against women, but I also agree with Dente when she says that criticicizing feminism is criticizing a group that is mostly women and which has given women rights they didnt previously have...by criticizing it it is like you are saying "these women should not be fighting for women's rights"...because why? women don't deserve equal rights?

The idea that a group is entitled to exemption from criticism because it is mostly female is sexist nonsense. Feminists are not fighting for equal rights. Superior rights for women is what they are all about, and they have had great success in implementing that.

ha ha ha! conceptualclarity, please get a clue! (turning off fox news might help with that)

"it promotes preferential hiring" HOW? "preferential college admissions" HOW? "women only colleges while seeking to eliminate men only colleges" HOW? "de facto discriminatory laws like sexual harassment laws, leading to a female reporter who habitually gawked at male private parts in the locker room claiming that SHE was a victim requiring major compensation" WHO WAS THIS? There is plenty of sexual harassment of women that actually occurs, so citing unique cases doesn't really support your point . . . oh, and just so you know . . . the sexual harassment laws are gender neutral and don't just apply to women. They apply to men who are sexually harassed by women or other men, and to women who are sexually harassed by other women as well. "female-only scholarships and no male-only scholarships" HOW? "nonpunishment of women who murder their babies, and nonpunishment of women who make grave false accusations against men" HOW? Yes, men's rights is for equality and feminism is for inequality. Please point out how everything you have said is true and give specific factual examples of how these points have been supported by feminism

"Feminists are not fighting for equal rights. Superior rights for women is what they are all about, and they have had great success in implementing that." Once again, I would be very interested to hear your factual (not just opinionated conclusory) proof of this.

you go ladyblue!!

Amen cc. Feminist rule #1 when false facts and faulty logic fail call them a women hater.

Just pull the trigger cc. Delet and block. No one can convince a fool using reason and logic because they are incapable of it.

Where is it written that a man cannot be rule to a women. What kind of logic is it that says a man being rude to a woman means he is rude to all women. What?
Cc wasn't being rude to you. Not at all.
That's another big problem I have with feminism. If your born female your a feminist. And a disagreement with one feminist or with feminism as a whole equates hatred of all women.
LMAO.
Do all the feminist here realize how insane you sound. The only voice of reason here are the MRAs as always.

And they continue to have success. But that won't last. And that's what they are afraid of.

knightrunner, i am glad that you have such a passion for guarding against male discrimination, but your sentiments are unfortunately ill-informed, and for that reason your many comment replies and rants against feminism are going to fade away into oblivion as just one more uninformed and unimportant opinion...and it will never amount to anything. Your views are not going to influence or change a thing in the real world, regardless of how much you despise feminism and feel your worldview and identity as a man are threatened by it, or how much you think men are being disadvantaged by giving women equal rights. So complain all you want, I don't have any incentive to debate the largest concepts or the minutest details with anyone who I know is not going to respect me or my opinion anyways, or who has some personal issue that prevents them from being objective and emotionally secure with facts.

Men aren't harmed by giving women equal rights. Men and women are harmed by female supremacy. Your right I don't respect you. I don't respect anyone who is a supremistst. Your a feminist you are a supremistst. End of story. I will not tolerate people who hate. I have little or no tolerance for them.

I have no intention of debating you. Never have. Facts You want to talk about fact? ROFLMAO!
A feminist wanting to talk about facts. That's a good one.

Anybody who reads the newspaper should be plenty enough familiar with all these things. The woman was a certain Lisa Olsen (Olson?).

http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Am-Against-Feminism/2195744. Do you consider what Arty references there "equal rights", shannon?

Oh Con I agree too your opinions are not all informed. I guess I could say this word choice was freudian and belies your natural real self?

Excuse me Mr. Knowitall aka I see you've found a translator for my name but once again had failed to learn the meaning. Its a saying it means more than just poison tooth. Nice try though. Do you think just because one other person thinks your diplomatic that that makes it truthful? I've got news for you ... you can get almost any one person agree with almost anything. Funny to that when I tell you I don't like the way YOU TREAT ME you tell me I am wrong and use the opinion of someone else to affirm that I don't know if your treating me rudely... shows a lack of judgement on your part. I don't have any issue treating you how you treat others, if you don't like the way I treat you then maybe you should treat others differently. And when you post untruths about women in general which are hurtful you do hurt all women. You hurt women frequently. Do you understand that what you claim is natural is anything but? Your so sick in your delusions you are not rational, you need help. If you can't admit that patriarchy harmed women for hundreds of years, held them in servitude to men and that men as a gender profitted and benefited from that and still do then you are too sick to be reached. You are mad that women are succeeding and that once men were forced to remove their feet from or necks we didn't just go and achieve for our individual selves but set up different ways to help all women succeed. Don't be bitter that your outdated views and neaderthal behaviors are going the way of the doedoe bird, instead use this time to work on the sickness of your soul, use this time to work on the sickness of your heart and mind.

Rude behavior is rude no matter what group your being rude to. Don't be such a hypocrit take a page from my book and own your rudeness otherwise please understand that you look like a mean grumpy old fool when you argue this issue. I'm not saying you can't be rude, I'm saying at least be honest about who you are and what your doing.

Lady all these issues have been brought up to him multiple times, he has no proof, he didn't when I brought this up, he didn't when jane brought it up, when lilt brought it up when annie brought it up....he just says things he thinks will go overwell with his taken in hand wive friends.

I like all the shannon and lady comments just for the record.

Shannon watch out when you prove him wrong he will block you. He is very good at blocking out truth and logic. He is also quite the parrot and in a few days will say the same things you said to him .... its cute ... one day he might realize the reason he is ignored is because what he says is of no importance at all...until then I wouldn't waste your time.

No one would suggest arty does anything other than reference bullship he can't ever seem to back up.

You may want to distance yourself from the yappyknight he is become a liability as malignent as greenbare to your credibility.

Run has no tlerance for hate? He seems to tolerate greenbare just fine.

trolling trolling raw hide

shann.... faux news isnt it ?!

"No one can convince a fool using reason and logic because they are incapable of it." And you have proven that over and over again by failing to recognize reason and logic that might change your mind about feminism, and continuing to fail to provide any reason and logic to support your false, conclusory, purely opinionated points.

"I don't have any incentive to debate the largest concepts or the minutest details with anyone who I know is not going to respect me or my opinion anyways, or who has some personal issue that prevents them from being objective and emotionally secure with facts." Or who is so closed minded, and incapable of understanding or considering "reason and logic", and accepting and understanding factual proof, that no matter what you tell them it won't make any difference to their limited, small minded way of thinking.

"Your a feminist you are a supremistst. End of story. I will not tolerate people who hate. I have little or no tolerance for them." Such hypocrisy. Don't you realize that you treat the people here the same way you claim they treat you? But for some reason you think it is acceptable for you to act like a supremacist who is critical, disrespectful, and intolerant, and says mean and hateful things to people who don't agree with you even though they try to find out why you seem to feel the way you do, but you won't tell them. Instead you just dismiss them and act like you are superior and know more than they do.

'I have no intention of debating you. Never have. Facts You want to talk about fact? ROFLMAO! A feminist wanting to talk about facts. That's a good one." Here is even more hypocrisy from you. I have asked you over and over for evidence of what you claim is so true about feminism, but you never provide any. Instead you just criticize and try to push me aside. Its clear that you make statements like the one above because you have no facts to support your contentions. Its obvious that you try to come off like an emperor, but you clearly have no clothes.

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Tamytamy, I think you're new to EP. Don't be intimidated by the leftists and get discouraged from writing. If you get really tired of their BS being foisted onto your stories you can block them. <br />
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(Watch for Dente's outrage. If she doesn't like that aspect of the rules she can take it up with EPArsineh.)

No intent to intimidate. I do think CC you should be more careful with your words. If you want to lead please do so by example.

Is this real? Am I really seeing/reading this?

Thank you, tamytamy for writing this valuable story. The evil of feminist hate needs to be exposed. The two teachers you describe should absolutely be fired. They are practicing not just favoritism but serious discrimination and psychological abuse, and like typical feminists, feeding their students with false statistics and false portrayals of men. <br />
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At any school or college anywhere in this land, if a teacher treated female students like this, the teacher would be swiftly fired, even if it was Bob Jones University. (Folks, feminism is all about double standards on a massive scale.) It is noteworthy that knightrunner corroborates this feminist phenomenon by affirming that he experienced this virulent anti-male sexism in two different school districts, <br />
and in yet another district his wife experienced it. It should open people's eyes that this is going on not just in Vermont, Massachusetts, and California, but in the Deep South. <br />
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I think sexism is so rampant among today's feminist-indoctrinated female teachers we may need to have separate schools for boys. If a tenured professor at a college is doing this, it is a more difficult situation to deal with, although an attempt should be made. When it is in the public schools, it can be brought up to the school board. This is one reason why it is very important for people to pay attention to their local school board elections and vote and work hard against the liberals who would be just fine with this kind of injustice.<br />
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"She had said that most woman that are Christians normally change their views at the end of the year, how great it is to see their eyes open to the truth." Christians need to wake up to how feminist public school teachers are trying to turn students against Christianity, which is outrageous malfeasance. If public school teachers are not allowed to promote Christianity because that violates neutrality, then they also cannot promote rejection of Christianity or the Bible. I think you need to explore that in more detail in a story in the I Am Christian group. I urge you to join it.

That's one thing i didn't have to worry about. No omen was going to push atheism at either of my two public school districts. Living in the south has its advantages. Atheist keep their mouths shut.
But i did suffer some overly religious rules in the second school district. In that town there is a small church of Christ college. The college pumps a lot of money into the town. So they get what ever they want. Church of Christ are against dancing. So no prom. Instead we had junior senior banquet into he banquet hall of a large fancy motel in a near by major city. No dancing because it promotes sex but lets have a party for them in a motel. Some of the students, like myself were 18. Guess what happened after the banquet.
Ever seen the original movie footloose. Yeah that's pretty much where i went to highschool.

Yes you are right on target.

They don't have to promote atheism. Just trying to tear down Christianity like tamytamy's teacher did is outrage enough.

"Christians need to wake up to how feminist public school teachers are trying to turn students against Christianity, which is outrageous malfeasance."

Bit of a stretch isn't it? Here I thought a true Christian couldn't be swayed by the lies of heathens...

I don't know anybody who has said that Christians cannot be deceived.

My comment has 3 likes, so it should show +4. It shows +2. More trolling.

You are overly concerned with people "liking" your comments. Has it ever occured to you that maybe if you didn't show how bad it gets under your skin people would stop doing it? Also I am kinda tired of it always being "trolling" or "feminist trolls" voting down your comments, it could be a lot of different people, your views are not very moderate so they could easily offend other people.

Why I thought christains couldn't be decieved? I thought they had faith and that faith trumps everything, including law, logic, and even country. I thought Christains were supposed to put God and their faith above everything else, if someone is doing that wouldn't they recognize if someone was teaching them something "ungodly" ?

Young people are especially vulnerable to being misled. "your views are not very moderate" In the US my views are more mainstream than yours.

"Living in the south has its advantages. Atheist keep their mouths shut."
No, we don't.

Don't you dare try to pull that ... you don't know what my views are and guess what most of the country wouldn't touch your little anti-feminst tyraids. Trust me Con you are the exception not the rule. And believe me when I tell you I am thankful for that. The next time you try to tell someone how they feel or what their views are I suggest taking a lesson from your bible and judge not lest you be judged yourself.

I am simply going by the views you have expressed. No, feminism is NOT popular. Matthew 7:1 has nothing in the world to do with assessing how mainstream somebody's political views are.

Cc all she wants to is start a fight. Just ignore her.

Sometimes people dislike a comment, not because they are "trolling", but because they don't like what was said and that will rate it down. Big deal. Why is that so hard to understand and accept? Also, I know Christian women who are feminists. Not all feminists are Atheists, just like not all anti-feminists are Christians. I really wish people would let go of their stereotypes. It would help them to understand what they are shown is incorrect thinking over and over again, and would help them to be more accepting of people who do not think just like they do.

DA, liberals themselves are not popular, even though they control the media and the universities. They know it, and that is why they have tried to rebrand themselves "progressives."

If they are not popular how have they become able to control the media and universities?

That doesn't logically follow. In Russia the Bolsheviks were detested by nearly the whole population, yet they gained absolute control over that vast country. Popularity and power are far from being synonymous. And in case you haven't noticed, the news media are not held in very high regard in the US.

Lady don't bother they say one thing one day and then change it when it doesn't fit the next day

Funny you were using it as proof not 5 comments ago.

You need to figure out what you actually believe and stick to it.

Yes. Very well stated cc.

Certainly not. The westboro Baptist are prof of that.

That's why feminist go after children and young adults. Young people may be intelligent but they lack wisdom. Wisdom comes with experience. Feminism can brainwashing children. They are far less likely to brainwash adults.

That's true cc. People are tired of listing to corporate media. Most just aren't listening.

It is true, knightrunner, that wisdom comes with experience. When I was a teenager I was at the top as a student but I believed everything I read and heard from my teachers. (I was a liberal back then.) When I think back on it I find it scary to think how easy it is to deceive the vast majority of students.

she isn't making comparisons.it isn't your views against hers, she gave you a reasonable
answer why ur posts are numbered like they are ... end of story

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