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More On Gender Roles

I briefly touched on this in my first post, but I would like to elaborate. 

Feminism has resulted in a female gender role that is even less equal to the male role than it was before. Feminists fight for the right to be men. Women can wear pants, play on sports teams, and have careers. This, in-of-itself, is not a problem. The problem is that women and men both feel compelled to live the male role because it is superior. 

If a girl dresses like a boy and plays sports, she is a tomboy. That is "cool."  A guy wears a dress, he is a cross dresser and something to be laughed at. A woman becomes a CEO, that is admirable. A man chooses to stay home with the kids? While a few women may find that admirable, other men will laugh at him for being less of a man. 

Anything a man does that is considered feminine is laughable or respected only by other women. Anything a women does that is considered masculine is admired by both sexes.

This applies to homosexuality as well. Selecting a male mate is part of the female gender role. Therefor, a man who selects a male mate is acting feminine and is laughed at. Have you noticed, in mass media how gay men are often comic characters while lesbians are tough and badass characters in action flicks?

Everyone wants to be a man. What's worse is that a biological male cant be too manly without offending the feminists, but a woman can be as manly as she wants.  Sucks for the men. If they act like women, they are laughed at, act like men and suffer the wrath of the feminists.

We need both gender roles. I don't care the biological sex that fulfills either role. Idealizing one over the other has caused confusion and imbalance. 

Ok, well, ideally we should all have equal right to either gender role and equal respect, but that comes with its own problems too. There were some standards that made life a bit more simple. Standards like, the man pays for dinner on a first date, or asks the girl to the dance. Now we get these awkward moments on first dates (as if they weren't awkward enough) when the check arrives. Blank stares and uncomfortable chuckles as each ponders what to do. The guy worries that he could offend the woman if he pays or if he doesn't pay. The woman may have no problem with they guy paying, but doesn't want to appear rude or greedy so what to do? Some of the assumed standards expected of males and females did make life run a bit smoother. 

I think we could keep the standards without offending everyone. Let it be assumed that the guy will pay the first time. No need to be offended. Then, for future dates, talk to the guy in advance about it without acting offensive. Too many feathers get ruffled over following default traditions. People need to chill out.
CypressMoon CypressMoon 26-30, F 5 Responses May 21, 2012

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this is an excellent post. it's true - women now are expected to be able to do it all "like a man" (or, even better than him) & feminists promote this idea that women are strong & independent (which a lot of them are, just like a lot of men are), while at the same time wanting society to be sensitive to women's "feelings" & promoting the idea that women are fragile & therefore deserve special privileges.
& women are considered weak if they choose to focus on the role of mother & nurturer (to which they are biologically geared) & are considered role models if they are ruthless, hard, successful & provide for their family (even if it means their kids are neglected).
feminists have made being feminine a trivial & silly thing, while promoting the idea that masculinity in men is shameful (& even brutal, barbaric & evil).

however, i don't thinks sports & careers are a "male" or "masculine" thing. i just think it's wrong for a woman to put her role as a mother second to these things (& pretty much everything else).

I do not believe that both sexes are fighting to be men, but are fighting for their own interests. It is not masculine to want to be a CEO; it is just a personal goal that was "traditionally" a man's dream (which was inappropriate for a woman to want to aspire until feminism).

The personal goal of becoming a CEO is not the problem. I admire women that choose that path too. That isn't quite the point. I meant that most of us DO admire women who choose traditional male careers but not many admire men (or women, for that matter) who choose traditionally female roles. I wish that someday we could all see that every occupation (including homemaker or minimum wage worker) has potential to be equally admirable if people do their best and aspire for their own dreams based on their unique skills. A woman should never feel ashamed to say that she is "only a mother." I have a friend who had children right out of high school and when I got in contact with her again after many years and told her about my college education she seemed embarrassed of herself and looked for ways to justify her choices to me as if it was necessary to do so. She told me she wished she went to college too. Thing is, I know her and I know that college was never her dream. She is an excellent mother and she loves her kids more than anything. She has a nice house in a safe neighborhood and she wouldn't trade her kids for anything. Yet she feels the need to wish for the more "impressive" dreams of others. This just makes me so sad.

Cypress: Take a look at the videos in this story.<br />
EP Link

Sorry, haven't been on EP for a while and didn't see the msg earlier. I will check out the link now.

...or not. Looks like the videos have been removed. Sorry I couldn't see them before.

Germany, Sweden and Australia are considering banning urinals. Apparently a man standing to pee is oppressive to women. At least that's how feminist feel. <br />
Feminist don't want men to have anything of their own. As bad as hate go all "tin foil hat" on everyone, with everything I have seen with regard to feminist, there is only one logical conclusion. Feminist hate men. They don't care about equality. All they want is to hurt men. I mean what other conclusion is there for forcing men to sit to pee. There is no other logical conclusion. All they want is to inflict pain and seek vengeance for a perceived slight.

really? banning urinals? Is that a case of hate or plain retarded-ness? Either way, feminists have some ridiculous ideas about how the world should be.
As a female, I'm supposedly on the safe side of the feminists' actions, but they scare me anyway. The few I've met just make my hair stand on end.

They say that the splashing is a health concern. So they want remove all urinals and use splash sensors that would force men to sit. Another concern is the long lines for women's restrooms. By removing urinals in the mens restrooms and forcing men to sit wait times would become more equal. Again this is there logic behind their push to ban urinals.
Women think that they are relatively safe from feminist. Truth is anyone who doesn't agree with then is a potential target.

The feminists are not opposing the movement to allow men who "feel like women" to use women's restrooms. It shows they are really all about leftism, not the welfare of women.

Instead of forcing men to sit, and wait, they should put in urinals for females. Its not a new idea. http://www.urinal.net/archive/Womens.html

Note that many females don't actually sit at public toilets either. They "hover" and spray all over the place making a huge mess.

Yeah they tried the female urinals. Women wouldn't use them. I really honestly think that feminist are so hateful that they want to take away our ability to say that we stand up to pee. They are that hateful and that petty. This isn't about equality. Its about hurting men. Feminist are looking for any reason to take something from us. They are bullies. They just want to poke us with sharp sticks. They get a kick out of making us bleed. Out of making us suffer.

...why are feminists so concerned about what's going on in men's bathrooms? :S

haha "splashing is a health concern" - as if feminist's are concerned about men's health?

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Yes, I have been noticing this very thing for a long time. At some point I asked myself, 'how is it that feminism is on the one hand screaming that women are superior, but on the other aspiring to claim the "power" men have, not by bringing to the fore all of women's "superior" ways of approaching life, but strangely acting just like men?' <br />
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I don't give a damn if women are race car drivers, boxers, or professional wrestlers, but what does bother me is that men have no place to call their own these days. Universities are even going to co-ed showers! It will be interesting to see what happens when a coed gets raped in that scenario, and make no mistake, it WILL happen. <br />
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But more generally, I think this 'we can do anything men can do' philosophy reflects a deep insecurity that American women feel about their identities. I live and work in the Middle East and am lucky enough to have traveled to many parts of the world. One thing that struck me about many women I have met and worked with from other countries was something I hadn't seen in the US for about 20 years: they loved their husbands, their children, and men in general. In fact, some of these women commented that American men are 'so politically correct', and sort of laughed at my reticence to just state my opinion as a man. I had come 7000 miles from home to find women--at last--who appreciated my masculinity. How refreshing!<br />
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So, at the root of this sort of 'penis envy' behavior is, in my mind, an adolescent approach to gender relations. When we are teens it is normal for women to look at the world as a competition between the sexes. I don't care what millennium we live in, teen males are far more aggressive about pushing the envelope than females. Young women see guys 'showing off' and they want part of that power. But, just as men need to develop mature perspectives about women (~ age 30), American women need to grow out of this childish competition with men. The European and Asian women I have encountered, on the other hand, tend to never bring up the subject, and tend to see American women as being beautiful but immature. <br />
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What is feminism reacting to that it has to insist that men have no place to their own? I think this is an adolescent reaction to basic differences that are never going to change: a) men are bigger and stronger; b) men are risk takers; c) men don't have to deal with periods or pregnancy; d) men are far less concerned with their appearance (dress) or their bodies; and e) men age more 'gracefully'. <br />
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Ironically feminists never seem to see the advantages in being female: a) never have to do the heavy lifting or get stuff off the top shelf; b) generally live longer because they are smart enough to avoid stupid risks; c) with a little help can 'create' their own family; d) set a good example for proper dress and physical fitness; and e) live longer (&amp; get all the loot). <br />
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I remember when droves of women 'went to work' in the late 70s. It took about 4 years to begin to hear that these same women complain that ‘work sucks’; all the fantasies about the power men had 'at work' were simply untrue. I think it's good that women found this out, but wonder what happened to all the feminist promises of creating a 'perfect world' once women got into power. <br />
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I have seen many women in power and they all seem to be frustrated and unhappy. I have seen entire departments, for instance, in universities occupied by women. Contrary to the myth of feminine 'superiority' as leaders and communicators, I have never seen one single example of such a situation--where women were largely or totally in control--where some magical world of peace and contentment exists. In fact, I never saw any differences that made working in those circumstances any better at all, for men or women. <br />
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So, why do women want to be men? It is simply a power issue, but it's power on a man's terms. That is, American women don't see how much power they actually have as women and have traded that in for what they consider 'real' power. I can remember a woman commentator angrily saying that Patty Smith (a feminist rock musician in the 80s) had completely 'sold out' after she got married, and became all 'girly', betraying her feminists sisters by acting all 'lovy dovy'. Imagine how horrible it must have been to find someone who loved her and wanted to have a family with her. What a nightmare! Patty Smith found true power--marriage, family, and a legacy. Is this perfect? No, but it beats the hell out of what I have generally noticed happens to women who focus too much on masculine power: being miserable and alone. <br />
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There was a movie called 'I think I love my wife', where a man is called on the carpet by the big boss after letting an affair affect his work. The big boss says, 'you can lose a lot of money chasing women, but you'll never lose any women chasing money'. If a man is single, this is true. But if he is married, chasing the almighty dollar--which essentially what women are doing when they act like men--is responsible for more unhappiness than anything else in life. <br />
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Women would do well to use their generally wise minds to see this reality, and try to achieve more harmony with actually being female. <br />
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I think we would all benefit if the constitution had one more inalienable right: For men and women to always have their inviolable space, where they can feel free to act like men or women without interference or judgment.

Well now, women, apparently, are entitled to their own spaces. Women are allowed special women-only services and public locations supposedly for their safety and sometimes just because. But they are greedy and want their spaces to act unabashedly "woman" and also be entitled to what the men have. Any conceptual right or physical space that men want to claim as their own, sans women, is immediately attacked as unfair. So, why is it only unfair for one side? People confuse me really. There is just no logic in this world.
I agree that the majority of women have skills and abilities that are unique to a female just as men have skills that are uniquely masculine. It's unbelievable how many people look at me like I'm crazy when I say this. However, I also believe that there are honest-to-goodness women that have a more masculine mindset than most and men that are naturally more effeminate. I don't think these minority few should be prevented from selecting to live out a gender role that differs from their biologica sex, IF they are truly acting according to their individual character and not to outside pressures.

Look at what happened at Simon Fraser University. Money to create a male centre was put into the budget. 30,000 vs 100,000 for the women's centre that was established 30 yrs ago. When the feminist found out that men were getting a male only space they went nuts. They said stupid things like it would become a rape club or that the whole campus was the mans space.

I agree with most of what you said. You are on the right track.

Arty, you ought to write a story in the American women group about how American women are regarded abroad in your experience. I would also add that feminists and other progressives were very fond of saying that women in politics would change politics for the better. But as women in politics have increased, our politics in the US have gotten much worse. I wouldn't put any of the blame for this on conservative women, but I think feminist women like Barbara Boxer and Wasserman-Shultz do bear significant responsibility for the worsening tone of our politics. Their insistence that pro-lifers are enemies of the female gender has done much to make the atmosphere in US politics much more poisonous.

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