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Pride

i am not always proud of what my country does, but i am proud of what it stands for... or is that used to stand for...
eyes eyes 31-35, F 61 Responses Oct 1, 2007

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I agree totally Karalas. When I was young there were all kinds of neighborhoods that we passed on our way to the relatives.There were also TONS of houses of every kind .They lived near work. Work that doesn't exist anymore. Everything is outsized. 20 years ago,you could support a family on what was made in the factory, or in the wharehouse. No more. I live in the suburbs near a river. The buildings have either been torn down or made into high end condo's. Very sad. can you imagine 10 years down the road if this keeps happening? I work in a school and believe me when I tell you there's a lot of kids in 6th,7th and 8th grades that are not going off to college. What are they going to do? Sell drugs?A lot of the people that would be working in the factories are doing just that or worse. They're not part of the American dream. They're numbers are growing.Heartbreaking when you know the potential but see the influences pulling them the other direction. These days kids have more money than a lot of adults. How? I have no idea. My kids never did. They're also more lost and misguided. When I write scathing stories about the state of our country,It's because I see,and hear, and talk to the "statistics" of drugs,unlimited gun laws, and whole communities that nobody wants to see,or hear,or be reminded other than making a racial slur.I get so angry and frustrated.When's the last time you saw anybody hunt with an uzi? This is the **** that makes me crazy! Anyway,I ramble. Keep writing.<br />
maureenb

Thank you Maureen. Don't forgot countries like Brazil are about 75 percent green already around 90 when it comes to the automobile industry. Wih as much tech and food surplus we have we could easily trade for the knowledge instead of having to spend the 20 to thirty years itt ook other countries to develop itself<br />
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The conversion over would also create industry in America which is something that is slowly dieing. Everyday we become more a country of commerce which leaves the lower more trade skilled oriented class stuck doing nothing but pumping gas. That is not a job to support a family. It wasn't when I was a kid and I am sure wages haven't gone up much for the job. It was the steel mill or the auto factory that kept the low income class going and we are losing those jobs in America due to outsourcing.

You two make good arguments. We've had so much time to switch to solar,wind,(yeah, like in Holland) and cars, and trucks,tractors,etc. that run on oil from Burger King and McDonalds. There's a farm about 45 min outside of Philly who's owner turned his whole farm into a green,$48.00 a month,house and farm. Complete with his truck, tractor,car, and heating and cooling units in his home and barns running only on French fry grease. Doesn't that deserve the attention of either the government or a big business to take it farther?It also burns clean. Anyway Karalas,you speak very clearly about what you believe in and I respect that.<br />
maureenb

I appreciate your support of the troops Lexus I really do. I was in when 9/11 happened. I was in when Afghan started. I was in when Iraq started. It is true we are fighting for freedom over there. The troops know it. My friends hit be IED's know it. However to say that politicians do not have their own agenda in this war is in my opinion a little absurd.<br />
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It just so happened that there was a country that was under a tyranical dictorship. Our troops were willing to go in there and fix that problem. Basicaly politicians I won't say if it was or wasn't Bush though he was involved with it manipulated the scene. They knew the troops would fight in that country due to pride as a nation. I want to see no one oppressed. I will fight to the death to protect anybody's rights wheter American or not but especialy for women and children. Many of my Brothers feel the same way. They also knew that the civilian population I am speaking on a whole here not the individuals within it were hungry for more blood because of what transpired on 9/11.<br />
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The scene was manipulated. Look at numbers every oil company recorded record profits and claimed it was due to a gas shortage. Do you think that happened in the past gas shortages? No it didn't because there truly was an oil shortage then. How many times has Bush changed the reason why we are over there. I personaly have lost count.<br />
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I think we need to finish there. not drop out but come up with a real plan to fix the situation. If we truley want a democracy over there the only way that is going to happen is if we quit telling them what to do and start just offering them support. Right now politicaly we are invaders.<br />
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I think we have done a very good thing in Iraq. I think we did the right thing by going in there. I think the political reasoning behind it though was a bunch of whitewash to cover their agenda.<br />
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As for Vietnam most of the atrocities commited their by our forces were not true atrocities. They were spun that way. Such as American armed forces members killing kids. The why was never released. The why being the vietkong use to strap mines and bombs on the back of kids and send them running at the GIs. After a few attacks like that the policy became if the child does not stop running torwards you shoot him.

i love being free to disagree<br />
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but countries have to work for democracy themselves<br />
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they can't have someone else doing the fighting for them<br />
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and call me cynical or jaded if you will, but i do not beleive at all that we invaded Iraq just to bring them democracy

Your entitled to your opinion Eyes...I do respect that.<br />
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I happen to believe they are figting for freedom...just as they are being told.

that statement simply meant that our soldier's think they are fighting for the right reason, as the german's did in the beginning<br />
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i don't think they are going to become like the Nazi's<br />
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i think that they are being misled and told they are fighting for freedom, when behind the scenes there are other intentions

Have I then misunderstood this comment:<br />
"and once again, nothign against the troops, but hitler's guard thought they were doing the right thing for nationalist pride too"<br />
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As you said eyes while some may have begun serving in Hitlers army for German Pride i seriouly doubt there were many who kept that notion. Most as you also said...served Hitler out of fear...not pride.<br />
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Many Germans try to say it never happened....this I personally believe is because they are ashamed and dont want to believe such a thing occured.<br />
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They are silent on the train because they are mournful about what occured there...<br />
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I do totally agree that debate and duscussion is a good thing. It is in fact a part of the very freedom our soldiers fight to defend...and fight to offer to others.

we love open discussion!<br />
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there was a comparison between our troops now and the ones who fought on OUR side in WWII, but i dont remember one comparing our troops to the Nazi troops<br />
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i support people's right to protest the war, but i don't think belittling the soldiers is acceptable, especially in Vietnam, when so many weren't there by choice<br />
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German's are extremely cautious and respectful when it comes to WWII, but a lot of citizens didn't really believe that what hitler did was right, they were terrorized into complacency, into silence lest they join the millions of dead<br />
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and our soldiers committed atrocities in Vietnam too, but its the same as the Abu Ghraib thing, there are bad apples - most are good at heart though, so even if i don't agree with what they do, i don't think they are evil <br />
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i once had a teacher whose father was in the SS. he fought in the beginning for nationalism, for German pride. After everyone was moved to war, when Hitler started his real tyranny, he fought because his family would be tortured and die if he did not. Our men choose to fight - hopefully we aren't shifting the focus of the war out from under them like Hitler did

I didnt read all the comments...i browsed so if I step on toes please forgive me.<br />
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I saw one thing that absolutly made me gasp...there seemed to be a suggested comparison between the reason our soldiers fight and the reason Hitler's army did. WOW<br />
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Go talk to some Germans and ask that question. I lived there for 3 years and even to this day when on a train traveling through Dacau'...the entire train goes silent as a means of respect and sorrow for what happened there.<br />
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My father faught in Nam...and no he does not like to talk about the experience. The few times he has chosen to share with me the two things that bother him are 1) the atrocities he saw, not commited by our soldiers, but rather by the ones we were fighting. 2) To have sacrificed and given so much for a country whose people not only didnt appreciate but even went so far as to belittle and degrade them.<br />
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My ex husband served in the military and deployed to Bosnia for a year. Obviously by describing as my ex...we are not togehter and dont get along. But, one thing remains true and always will. He has and deserves my respect for his choice to serve.

Haha you think full time mommy is bad try full time daddy. It really sucks no one appreciates the stay at home dad. I am tormented by inner need to work, I see TV shows about how it is so hard for the stay at home mom and they never bring up the stay at home dad. My friends think its awesome that I can play video games all day. Its not it just sucks the fun out of video games. Ahh I could go on can't wait till the wife gets restationed so I can get a job.

I teach high school English in the inner city<br />
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i don't have what it takes to be a full time mommy, or even a part itme mommy. I would go insane and just not be able to take care of the child, so I don't put myself in a situation where I might end up with one.

Yeah I can see that one. What do you teach by the wy. I also understand about the dumb enough to have kids line. Granted I helped raise my four nieces and I am basicaly their dad (emotionaly and mentaly for them,) but kids take a lot out of you. You have to completley change your lifestyle. Somethings are not possible or as easy to do once you have kids. I don't regret them but it was also the dumbest thing I ever did. Luckily being dumb got me a great reward.

if i'm ever dumb enoguh to have children (personal choice - not an attack on people with children), I will do the same thing. That is pretty much how it worked for me, and I'm basically responsible now. My brother threw tantrums and got whatever he wanted and he is a mess when it comes to being responsible and taking care of his monetary issues. <br />
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My parents bought me a car, but I earned it with good grades and staying out of trouble and doing a heck of a lot of housework and taking care of mom when she got sick. When mom got sick and money got tight, I worked AND still got my grades.<br />
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Now, I do have a little of the privlege mentality because of how my brother always got so much more than I did and did so much less than I did, but I mostly see actually getting that stuff as a bonus.<br />
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My students can't affrod a backpack or a pencil, but they have brandnew scuff free shoes and iPods, and then some of them cop attitude when I tell them i don't have a pencil to give them (give not loan, they never give stuff back). Some of my kids are better, but you know which ones throw fits and get whatever they want at home. BIG difference in the grades too.

Granteed I had a tramatic childhood. not everyone has to have one but I think everyone needs to learn about it. In your own way you are fighting a war. Its not one of bullets but it a war more valuable then any other war. You fight a war intellectually against all who try to take what is yours.<br />
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I think kids today have lost that sense of earning something. I actually heard a case where a teenage daughter was dating a questionable guy. The mom listened to a phone conversation and heard about a crime the boyfriend was going to commit. She did ther ight thing and alerted the authorities. He was caught. In trial he got off because the Mother violated her daughter's right of privacy.<br />
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I have two kids and I am sorry it is not their right to have privacy. Yeah if they go take a crap they can close the door (not to that point yet) but it is my responsibility to know what is going on in there life. I have the right to raise my children in a safe secure enviorment. Privacy for children is not a right it is a privelage granted by the parent.<br />
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Same thing as what MJ said about with the car. children need to start working for what they have. My children will have an allowance but they will earn it. They don't do aprt of their chores well then they don't get the full amount. If they do all their chores without prodding from me they will occasionaly ge a bonus. What they want will also come from their allowance. Makes no sense to give my kid some money then buy everything they want on top of it.

we only appreciate it if we fight for it, even if it means fighting our own government for it<br />
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people don't read about what happens when they give up their rights, they don't see what really happens in other countries<br />
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i have students who don't know what communism is, don't know who stalin was, and in a few cases they have to ask who hitler was<br />
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they don't know what it means to have to fight for anything, to fight against injustice<br />
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if it isbn't happening to them, it isn't happening<br />
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i am lucky, i learned (because of my tough childhood) that i am not OWED anything, i had to fight<br />
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and when i was done fighting for myself, i fought for others<br />
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it wasn't a war, but i appreciate what i have - freedom - <br />
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i don't think everyone needs to go through something horribly traumatic to get the pointthough, we just need to force people to open their eyes and see what they have, and what they are in danger of losing

Honestly and sadly the truth is we will probaly have to lose a city. I go to relating to the fall of Rome. Rome did not fall when the empire was strong and vibrant. Rome fell when the people got complacent with their own lifes and then one by one the cities fell until Rome herself fell.

It becomes more and more difficult to bring that era back, because so many Americans are drowning in their own apathy. It seems to me that this is almost inevitable. When one is born into a free country and has the bill of rights handed to them as the best damn birthday gift ever, they don't care or understand the gravity of that gift. It's almost like the old argument given to teenagers regarding whether or not Mom and Dad will buy them a car when they turn 16. Some parents say, "Junior, you need to get a job and start saving money to buy your own car, that way you will appreciate it more." And other parents say "Sure, baby, here's a Mercedes Benz!" And the kids says, "It's RED, I didn't want RED, I wanted BLACK! You suck!"<br />
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My point here is that many Americans feel no ownership in our country. So, how do we cultivate more of a feeling of belonging, and stimulate real involvement that utilizes and fosters the Constitution and Bill of Rights? How do we make sure that the ideas espoused in those documents are protected and not slowly chiseled away? What has to happen to make American's care again?

yeah sad we need statesmen again. to bad that is a day long gone. At least for now maybe our generation will bring it back one can only hope.

you mean converse congenially and find common ground and explore where the differences really are, and maybe how to overcome those differences? <br />
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politicians can't do that, they would be declared un-patriotic and a traitor to their particular partisanship<br />
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you don't get into politics to cooperate with other people

hehe I have no problem growing them I just keep killing them at the same time. Go figure lol. Ok seriously I get what you are saying and couldn't agree more.<br />
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On a side note I wish politicians could do what we are doing right now. Even though you and me have diffrent opions on certain subjects instead of arguing that we look for the common ground we can both stand on and be comfortable. I guess the politicos just enjoy their money to much.

that would require us to grow brain cells, and so many people are dead set against that

true. Personally I am a barter system person. Granted that won't work in this day and age of technology but I like the idea of one household trading their goods for those goods they can not produce. It also requires a commitment to family that is alcking in this day and age so ehh. Capitalism I think is the best system for the era but I think it is highly flawed and could be improved as well. Not by legislation but by consumer choice.

in some ways i hate capitalism, because it fuels greed<br />
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not that i think any other system is better<br />
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we are flawed creatures, thus any system of government or economics is going to be flawed

ZNo they don't because the public really doesn't care. As much as they hype it up that they do they don't. This country everyday becomes more lIke romeros masterpiece the original Dawn of the Dead. The public becomes more and more Zombified worried about as you said their credit card payments new car impressing neighbors etc.

i just meant that as long as the people who are in charge of the war are making a profit from it, and have a vested interest in the region's oil, we won't leave, and i don't think they have an incentive to push for alternative fuels

haha I don't even the war has to be involved. yeah military uses JP8 in their diesel engines which is Jet Petroleum grade 8. A diesel engine is very versatile in what it can handle. Another nice fact about regular Diesel is it is made from petroleum waste everything from the trash of vasoline to gasoline. Only reason why we shouldn't convert to straight diesel I think it should be more highly regarded though but you know us and speed freaks.

i was unaware of that<br />
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and i think we will remain unaware of that as long as there is a monetary interest for the people waging the war

Without new Nuke, hydro, solar, etc plants electric cars do nothing for us. All they do is reduce emissions. Cause if you think abbout everyone is going to be plugging their cars into recharge 9 out of 10 what type of plant produce the electricity that went into the car. Either a)coal or b) natural gas either one is a fossil fuel. In fact emissions wouldn't even be lowered all that dramatically due to the fact as you charge your car you are draining energy from the grid as a result more energy has to be put into the grid.<br />
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Biodiesel I think is the current best option. Already diesel engines outperform gas ones. Diesel runs at a higher compression ratio starting usualy at 14:1 compared to gasolines's 10:1. Diesel engines have been in high performance vehicles and done well not the best but well. They are easier to work on and they last longer. Not to mention diesel has a lower carbon ration. add in the fact diesel can be made from substances like corn. You can already clean out your fuel filters and run bio-diesel ina regular diesel engine. Don't ever put regular diesel in it again but it works with no adaptations required really makes you go WTFBBQ.

Without new Nuke, hydro, solar, etc plants electric cars do nothing for us. All they do is reduce emissions. Cause if you think abbout everyone is going to be plugging their cars into recharge 9 out of 10 what type of plant produce the electricity that went into the car. Either a)coal or b) natural gas either one is a fossil fuel. In fact emissions wouldn't even be lowered all that dramatically due to the fact as you charge your car you are draining energy from the grid as a result more energy has to be put into the grid.<br />
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Biodiesel I think is the current best option. Already diesel engines outperform gas ones. Diesel runs at a higher compression ratio starting usualy at 14:1 compared to gasolines's 10:1. Diesel engines have been in high performance vehicles and done well not the best but well. They are easier to work on and they last longer. Not to mention diesel has a lower carbon ration. add in the fact diesel can be made from substances like corn. You can already clean out your fuel filters and run bio-diesel ina regular diesel engine. Don't ever put regular diesel in it again but it works with no adaptations required really makes you go WTFBBQ.

woohoo! colonialism again! because it turned out so well in the first place.... *grumbles*<br />
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i don't really buy into the whole electric car thing yet, because i don't see that decreasing our dependence on fossil fuels enough<br />
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i'm really looking forward to the bio fuel research though<br />
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if we want to untangle ourselves from the whole middle east fiasco, we need to find alternative energy sources, toot sweet

Haha yeah but that is besides the point. It was more just a comment on the social political nature of this country. If we were to add another state in truth it should be Puerto or Guam everyone knows. Instead it will be more like a country like Iraq which would be an expansion of our borders through conquest. I could really see the American people not saying a word though and just going look we don't need Ethanol now.

i'm good at multi-tasking :)<br />
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there is no way in hell puerto rico wants to be a full state, they get the benefits of our aid and protection without having to pay our taxes, its a good deal

haha yeah pretty much what I am saying a little diffrent context but end result both the same. Start doing it yourselfs or we go. Unfortunatley I think our goverment is more guilty of slowing up their goverment then they are. If we gave them the chance I think things would work Bush just won't let go. I swear Iraq will be the 51st state before Puerto Rico and somehow the populace is going to accept that. I mean our populace by the way.<br />
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And how do we do it Eyes have two conversations about different topics at once?

i'm not sure we can end it, not with anything resembling satisfactory results<br />
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we need to push the diplomatic side of it and force iraq to forgo the damned vacation tie and get things done ,or we will withdraw and leave them to handle the whole hellish mess without us

Oh I agree. Like I said I like the system from Starship the book not the movie by the way but for the reason you just said it does not work out quite as well. The fear of warmongers is justified and a troop is as unable to pick them out as a civilian so we would not be able to prevent against that.<br />
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Mercs have their place in the world but I think any nation must be very careful in Merc selection. You can't just go and get the "best" you need a merc unit that reflects what you stand for. I am not familiar with this Blackwater person or group but I trust your judgement they aren't neccisarily the good guys.<br />
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I know their also merc units there that work as secret service for the diplomats Iraqi ones that is. That I bleieve is the succesful use of Mercs. What I would really like to see in Iraq is the same arrangement we have in the Phillipines.<br />
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If you are not familiar with that the Filiponos have been fighting a splinter cell of Al-Qeda no for over a decade. At first we were activley participating but eventualy the PHilipines president put a nix to it saying this is our war our country. We will take any help you will give us in training support or gear but we must fight this. As a direct result since I believe 2000 no American is allowed to fire rounds at the enemy unless directly engaed. By that I mean the bullets have to be hitting his truck in the convoy. Not any truck in the convoy but his specificaly. That is how a nation proves to me that they are fighting their fight and we need to give the Iraqis the chance if they refuse then I say **** em and lets get out of there. The way I see it that is the only way to leave the mess cleanly and with the values that America cherishes. Once again not talking about the start talking about how to end it.

I agreed completely with the whole invading Afghanistan thing, mostly because I do believe that they knowingly harbored the people who attacked us, and because i have hated the Taliban for many years before the atrocities they committed were public knowledge. <br />
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I am completely offended that they "forgot" to do a little fact checking (i'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming they are lazy or maybe they were dropped on their heads one or twenty times too often when they were babies, and that they are not completely deceitful little bastards) before coming to the stage and presenting a case against Iraq (again)<br />
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But you are right, a lot of Americans watched it happen and said nothing. We are too busy making the minimum payments on our maxed out credit cards and our taxed out brains. We forgot the first Gulf War and how much better that made the world, forgot Vietnam, forgot Korea. <br />
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I don't like the idea that only people who have served in the military can hold office, because I am afraid that, instead of patriots, we would end up with a bunch of war mongers. I like that there can be a balance between those who served in the military and those who believe that the military is not the best way to serve ones country. That would also really limit the people who would be allowed to seek office. I would never be able to do so because I was cursed to be born with a bone disease. Some people have severe illness as children that leave them crippled, or at least unable to handle the stress of being a soldier. And then of course, simply having served in the military does not name you a patriot. On paper at least, Bush served, and I have seen nothing to prove to me that he is a patriot. <br />
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I want all of our troops to come home safe. If we can't just exit stage left, then we need to give our men and women the proper support they need to keep themselves safe - and I think that means better armor, better training, better vehicles. I think that means getting mercs like Blackwater the hell out of there. I do not want those people representing me in any way, although they do show what we stand for nowadays - outsourcing. I never did like mercs. There is something so wrong about fighting for money instead of justice.

I can halfway agree with the argumetns presented. I was in when Iraq busted out and I will agree part of the reason is payback for daddy dearest or mumsie dearest as Bush seems like he is still on the teet and part is for war profiteering but I also remeber the feeling of the country then. I won't get into if he lied or not. The lack of evidence is not the lack of guilt just makes it real ahrd to prove the guilt. However this whole nation was blood thirsty.<br />
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I will agree we rushed into Iraq half cocked. What I will not agree with was it was against the countries wishes. Not saying you are one of them I have no right to make that call as I did not know you then but I do know plenty of civilian people that were hungry for more blood. Face it sept 11 happened and we became a mob. We wanted blood. When Afghan happened and happened so fast we were left wanting more. Bush did not need to convince us much. We (by that I mean the publicas a mass not the individuals) wanted the war. We got the war. Now that it is not the sweeping success we expected the blood bath we expected we want out.<br />
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I see reasons for invading Iraq most of them not the publicized reason which they should of been, I see more of a reason to stay there. Whether we were right or wrong for invading we made the feaking mess we need to fix it. Granted that will not happen through military force. Forcing someone to become a democracy goes against everything democracy is. Democracy is all about choices after all. You will never force one. We should give up that foolish notion and work on just stablizing them. Not to mention if they are truley a democracy the most important vote they can make is whether they want our noses in their buisness.<br />
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I myself am very upset with Bush for diffrent reasons and I agree congress should do something. Either that or just STFU. Every day they waste more time and more energy on talking about it then doing something. They are just as fault but I digress. The reason I am mad at bush is because he says we will not go into Pakistan after Bin Laden because Pakistan is a sovreign nation. Well isn't that what Iraq is now suppose to be. Then why are we still making policy decisions over there. How are the people suppose to have faith in their goverment if it is not allowed to do things without checking with our goverment first.<br />
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As I have said before no problem with dissentors. As eyes alreadys knows I have alot of respect for her because her dissent is formed by her own basis of the facts not a blind hatred. As for your husband MJ I look forward to you telling us that he came back and tell him I said thank you.<br />
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Oh yes almost forgot I don't want Bushes kids in the military I do not think everyone should have to join. It is a great idea but in reality it doesn't work. When my *** is on the line and the guy next to me determines if I get to come home and see my wife and kids again I want the guy next to me to be someone who knew what he was getting into not somebody forced into through an obligation. I am actualy fond of the Starship troopers model of Goverment. Everybody is allowed to own land etc but only someone who served in the military can run for office and vote, the reasoning behind it is they know what they are fighting for and protecting.

here, here!<br />
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congress is playing possum right now, they have power, they need to get over the bullshit and use it<br />
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and we need to get our ***** off the couch, put our credit cards back in our wallets, and stand up for what is right<br />
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if we don't demand our rights, they will slowly be usurped from us

Thanks for the really good discussion on this topic. I was in a forum today where we were discussing the idea of service to one's country, both civil and military, and whether some sort of service ought to be compulsory. The basic conclusion that was reached, whether the person thought service should be mandatory or not, is that this country is full of people who do not realize what a great gift we have. So many people are apathetic and disinterested to the point where basic liberties are being ******** via the Patriot Act, etc. and the public outcry is minimal. <br />
We don't demand that a President, who uses fear as a tactic and at best misrepresented the facts to get us into a war with Iraq, be removed from office. Instead, this insidious game is being played where if you dare to speak out against the policy of our Government, you are instantly deemed unpatriotic and un-American. What kind of country are we living in when it is considered news to report on whether or not a candidate for the Presidency wears a flag lapel pin or not!? <br />
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I find it shocking and disconcerting that people would advocate gagging dissent. Just because anti-war stories couldn't be run during past wars, does that make it right? Does that make it ok to ignore fundamental values called for in our Constitution and Bill of Rights? <br />
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My husband has been in Iraq for about a month now. He's got 14 more months to go. This is the second time that he's had to do this. Yes, the burden gets heavier and heavier. But the burden is being shouldered by a very small portion of our population and it just isn't right. <br />
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Instead of bowing down to George Bush's demands, Congress needs to keep sending tough bills to his desk. So what if he vetoes it. Send it back. Do it as many times as is necessary. I'm so sick of watching people roll over and play dead to this President.

i agree<br />
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and i think most people know that patriots come from every socio-economic group, from every race, every gender, every religion, every party<br />
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being a patriot does not mean blindly obeying, being a patriot means loving your country, although not necessarily always your government

First of all, I love America. I am a Democrat. I am a patriot. Don't tell me that i wasn't free before G Bush decided to attack Iraq. Bin Laden wasn't in Iraq. Bin Laden isn't an Iraqi. Mr Bush told everyone that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. There were none. He went against the UN. He went against popular opinion. He put nobody that he loved into the war zone. I feel only compassion for the soldiers over there. I feel sorrow for the family's .But please make no mistake-I"VE ALWAYS BEEN FREE. World War 2 made sure of that. Vietnam did not and neither did the Iraqi conflict do that. This war is "Pay back for Daddy, and you're paying the ultimate price. God help you.<br />
maureenb

yeah, i've been making the connection between the US and the fall of the Roman Empire for quite a while now<br />
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I hope people are waking up because i want to see us live up to our potential, to see us become great again, not just in military strength, but in deals and morals, to set an example for the world based on actions, not just words

haha yeah hell in a hand basket. I am not really sure America is headed seems a lot like where the Roman Empire headed but I know society will survive whether the goverment crumbles or not. Luckily though it does seem like alot of people are starting to wake up to the world, myself and you included so who knows maybe with the next generation (our generation) some changes will actualy be made thats what I look forward to.

if you laugh, you gotta cry<br />
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it may be good for a quick giggle, but when you realize that millions upon millions of people have those same cracked reasonings...<br />
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its just really really scary to me

I'lla gree their Eyes I have the same in my house but opposite party. My ad is in the camp of make marijuana legal but ban trans fat. That one always blows my mind that the same group of people who want marijuana legalized because the goverment can't dictate what you put in your body (which is usualy the underlying philosophy) or the same ones who try to ban trans fat because American eat to much nasty food. Provides me with hours of endless enjoyment. Kinda like no abortion because all life is sacred but we will have the death penalty.<br />
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Granted some of those above items I am for/against but just the reasoning behind the party lines cracks me up then to hear other people spout them like a religous mantra never catching the hypocracy of it all always good for a laugh (not the issues the situation)

i was completely shocked today at the conversation my family had about politics.... usually it is an off limits topic at family dinners because it tens to create major problems<br />
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but today, my dad, my grandfather, and my brother, all die hard republicans, actually said they disagreed with the current administrations policies and think that the last 6 years have caused a lot of harm to the country<br />
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i have never in my life heard them speak against a republican<br />
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i know i'll never ever agree with my families politics, but at least i know now they are using their brains and are not blindly following someone... now even if they are still republicans, i have a lot more respect for them (keep in mind i am neither republican nor democrat - i hate both parties equally)<br />
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i am just glad to know they do think about what is going on and aren't just straight ticket anything - i have always hated straight ticket voters, people who follow a side so strictly, they don't bother to figure out whats really going on<br />
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i think that constitutes ignorance, and i don't want ignorant people voting... people who vote should be at least familiar with the campaigns of all the major candidates and know what they stand for and be willing to vote for the candidate that best represents their interests, and that is not always a straight ticket<br />
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anyhow...

Your right about that. You don't have to like the way it's being run to be a proud American.

Oh I am not sedated trust me. If I ever see a canidate that is worth my time I will vote, but for example Hilary or Guilianni fiascal to me it apears they are just putting on a show to get what they want not saying what they are actualy going to do.<br />
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Also I am so glad you understand that. In fact most people I have met on here seem to be of the same mindset. Much better then other forums I go to.

i vote, because i won't become one of the sedated <br />
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and i am loving having a civil disagreement here! i learned a long time ago that being rude and vulgar only detracts from your argument, no matter how logical or agreeable the premise!

Oh and also Eyes nothing but respect for you for making your points with no vulgarity and being calm and rational.

Haha yeah I am a non voter for that very reason. I look at canidates and hear them say blah blah blah do this and that and realize it very seldom actualy gets done especialy on a national level. I miss states man instead of politicians.

oh i detest both parties! i want to see nothing more than an overhaul of the parties, and would love to see the rid party candidate make a really strong showing in the polls and shake things up<br />
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we need to get some good old fashioned decency back in the government<br />
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i do agree that most people don't follow enough of current events (biased or not) to really develop their own opinions about the war

Medic I was saying just that. To much information tot he public is bad for the war fighting effort. There are people not equipped to fight a war mentaly and emotionaly. Most of those people never even join the military.<br />
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Eyes as I do not know you personaly I will not question whether you were against the war from the get go or not. I have no right to make that deciscion for you. What I can say however is that the majority of people only started being against this war after the media demonized it.<br />
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I respect your opinion to disagree with the war, but lets be honest most peoples decision to be against the war is nothing but zombie brain programming just like most people's descision to be for the war initialy. I think the world media most particulary BBC and American news corporations are excellent at twisting what is really going on into what they want you to believe.<br />
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If you are truley gainst the war for the reasons you say you should be one of the first to bring down the propaganda machines on both party lines as they are the biggest hinderance to your cause.

that idea is, in and of itself, un-American<br />
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you may not agree with their opinions, but they have a right to have them, and to voice them<br />
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in saying that you are writing off the opinions of a very large number (even the majority) of Americans<br />
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I'm not someone who is saying I hate the war because of what I see on TV, I have been against invading Iraq since the beginning<br />
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I am not saying Hussein was not an evil man<br />
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I am saying that the war was ill-advised, and will not result in a win for America, and we cannot expect for it to<br />
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we cannot stay indefinitely, both for practical reasons and moral/ethical ones-- as that would be an occupation, and forcing anyone to submit to our will is tantamount to colonization again-- but we have wounded the country, de-stabilized it, and left the opportunity for an even greater threat to take Sadam's place

Eyes is right about the war can not be fought like a traditional war. I think most people need to get that through there heads. It is much like the police fighting against gangs on a larger scale. Do you want gangs running around your neighborhood? Causing trouble, killing people. I am sure the answer is no. Well there is only one way to lower the gangs and the answer is neither simple nor easy.<br />
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First the Police must establish a pressence within the community. This ensures that when the need arises they will be there. Secondly the police must act upon supspicious behavior. Does this mean innocents are occasionaly harassed? yes but if the police are afraid of that then they will never be able to act. Three Law enforcement not the goverment itself but that section of law enforcement responsible for that community must get involved.<br />
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These are the same problems we face in Iraq. Initaly we did not establish a formiable pressence. Then the Iraqis were afraid to get involved due to their own fear and misgivings. Finaly due to the media our troops are slowly being bled dry by critics nay sayers and just ne'er do gooders.<br />
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You realise in WW2 Rosevelt actualy prevented the media from printing negative articles. During the civil war Lincoln actualy declared Martial law. Do you doubt either of those two actions? A lot of the problems we are facing now has nothing to do with freedom of speech more to due with people sticking their noses where it doesn't belong. <br />
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Now don't get me wrong eyes I don't blame you for that. Once a secret is out the American public has the right to know. We just need to be a little more tight lip with our secrets.

They fight so people have the right to agree, disagree, or criticize what they are doing. Just remember they are there, so we don't have to be. Whether you agree with the reason stand behind the men who risk their lives. They need our support.

i'm not sure who deleted those messages, whether it was the poster himself or what, but i do appreciate that the remark was retracted<br />
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:)<br />
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i'm not here to ruffle feathers, just to express myself, as are we all :D

now see, that is not polite<br />
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i love my country<br />
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real patriots don't leave because it gets rough<br />
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i love my country enough to say that i don't think things are quite right, and that we are so much better than it would seem<br />
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i want to see America really become what it can become, with real freedom and real free speech, and real freedom of religion, without prejudice, without inequality<br />
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i know i'm a little jaded because of the stuff i've seen, the stuff i've lived through, but that doesn't mean that i don't love my country<br />
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i take pride in the Pledge that I say daily, i stop and watch when a good wind is going and the flag is open fully and fluttering in the wind<br />
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i am outside at mighnight before the 4th, before memorial day, before veterans day helping my neighborhoos line the roads with flags so that everyone can see our pride<br />
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i study our history<br />
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i learn from our history<br />
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i know that i have the right to express my opinion and i do so in every election, i discuss my beliefs openly and when i don't agree with someone else, i do not condem them for their beliefs, as long as they are trying to make america stronger, to keep the spirit that should burn inside us all<br />
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i am offended that anyone would suggest that exercising my rights as an American makes me un-American

the hevaier year by year is the problem<br />
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i will never say an unkind word about the troops in general (a few bad apples or not) they are giving the ultimate gift, and i am sure that a lot of them beleive they are doing the right thing<br />
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and once again, nothign against the troops, but hitler's guard thought they were doing the right thing for nationalist pride too<br />
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sometimes we have to ask questions<br />
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i love Edward Abbey's quote "A patriot must always be will to defend his country against his governemt." When you think about it, that is the premise of the US, that is why we fought for our freedom the first time, the reason the government is set up with checks and balances, so we can defend ourselves against it<br />
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we are squandering that right

the war cannot be won though<br />
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we cannot go tinto someone country and decide that we are going to change their whole way of life, their whole way of goverment overnight<br />
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we aren't fighting a few people, we aren't aren't going to find an enemy nest, bomb the heck out of it, and then have them surrender<br />
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we are creating hatred<br />
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the polticians need to represent the people, and the people do not want to be in this war<br />
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i am proud of our men, and i know they do the bext they can, and they try to make a real positive differnce in civilians lives over there, but its like punching waves, and its our men who are getting knocked over and dragged into the undertow