Evidence

Here is the Body of "god": $. ... There are No disbelievers. "Serpent On The Pole."

I will try to keep this short because I need to work and out of respect to 4Daereen to which this post belongs.



4Daereen - If Judeo-Christianity belief survives these many ages, maybe it has merit? Just as a scientific theory that successfully describes reality never becomes outdated or obsolete?



MentalGent - But indeed Christianity has been perverted and corrupted. The Enemy knows the best way to destroy a kingdom or nation is from within and without. By the way, I can't recall a single scientist tortured or killed by the Church; Hitler used neo-Roman imagery, his personality cult, and the love for Fatherland (ultranationalism) to convince the Germans to support his Reich; crusades and inquisitions are what happens when church authorities prostitute themselves to empires and states (power corrupts); and Christians in the US and Europe hate you because you are battering their already cracked foundational beliefs (sola fide and bible inerrancy) and that is tantamount to undressing them (humiliation) in public. However, the words of this Pope or the actions of that Christian should not and do not in any way undermine the essential beauty or moral soundness of Jesus Christ's teachings. Peace to you, friend, though I hope my worldview shakes your own foundational beliefs a bit.



Troubleshooter - My country is predominantly Christian but I see no misogyny or homophobia here (women are practically worshipped here) though there is job discrimination against gays. There is also no xenophobia, in fact, I would characterize my people as xenophilic. As for slavery, well, practically everyone here who has a job is a wage-slave. I also apologize for claiming that you embrace atheism so that you can pursue hedonism -- that was a low blow and uncalled for.



For those who seek clarification on the true meaning of Luke 14:26 search EP stories for "Severity" then look for "hate" within the story. Jesus basically says if you're going off to fight a war then you must detach yourself from family. Family becomes a distraction or worse, part of the collateral damage in a fight against the Deceiver. Nothing serves Christ worse than a corrupted priest.



That is all. I will make no further comments on this post.

Sorry 4Daereen if I keep commenting in this section.. I've had commentators delete my replies before and I guess I trust you more.



Troubleshooter..



Yes, you are right.. it does seem that natural laws can bend around those who have favor with God. Of course, you do not believe that and would reason some other agency was at work. If you saw a ghost, you'd probably reason you're mind was playing tricks on you. but I digress.



I think you should give more credit to the Judaic religion for preserving such a valuable historical record and cultural treasure such as the Old Testament through countless years of turbulent (that's putting it mildly) human history. Better I think than erecting gigantic monuments and chiselling stories on tons of stone. If you value history, you should be thankful that we do have a source upon which to compare and illuminate the archaeological record. You don't have to believe everything the OT says. I don't. Just give it due respect.



The NT should also be given due respect. It has less history and more moral teaching. Give it more credit. If Christianity had been wiped out by the onslaught of Islam and/or the Mongols during the Middle Ages, I doubt we would be having the Internet, free speech, freedom of religion, human rights, etc. Slavery would still be the norm, women would still be 2nd to men, genocide, tribalism, disease and war would still be rampant. Prove to me that it would not have been so.



I was talking about certainty as in the absolute truth of a statement, not the precision or accuracy of observable measurements. See my other reply. But since you like to flaunt your knowledge of physics, tell me, what stops your hand from going through solid objects? I'd like know what you think.



As for the other gods and belief systems, well, they couldn't stand against the competition. All belief systems compete in the market for man's spiritual desire -- his search for meaning and his place in the universe. Old beliefs die due to their inconsistencies and contradictions and in the light of new discoveries; and new beliefs are always sprouting up to take their place. If religious beliefs are obsolete or irrelevant, then it will either adapt or die, and you should not worry or hate those who profess them. If religion is a comforting to those who believe in them especially on their deathbed, who are you to take away that comfort from people just so you will not feel guilty in your pursuit of a hedonistic lifestyle. You should be thankful that, with Christianity at least, people are given good reason to be kind and considerate to their fellow man.

MentalGent. Shush.. "utter trolling guff?" I thought you were selling people the idea that atheists were open-minded and not hateful.



The fact is I admire science. It is humble enough to admit that even established theories (relativity, evolution, plate tectonics) are still called "theories" because it's propositions may not be 100% correct and may require revision. In other words "we think this is right, but we still could be wrong." I applaud that mindset, so different from the proud thinking of religious fundamentalists and atheists alike. Both groups seem to exclude the possibility that they could be wrong. A truly open-minded atheist is an agnostic.



Part of the beauty that I find in the universe is in how everything seems to obey law. Mathematical laws. That is why we are able to create very realistic CGI -- with formulae. I find it awesome that a set of relatively simple laws with just the right sprinkling of physical constants are able to create All That Is, the vast expanse of the universe, life in all its diversity, beings who able to think, give language to these laws, and create worlds with it. Why would the universe need to obey laws in the first place? Who wrote these laws, or are they just another accident? Maybe you can prove to me they were accident?

Reading your post again, I have come to the conclusion (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're really not an atheist (yet). It seems you have not made your conclusion yet and your post is actually an appeal to God to show you a sign. Pray to God to show you that sign. I doubt you will find it here in this EP group (unless I'm the sign?) Anyway, you may want to read the stories I'm posting. It's sort of an updated and detailed NT. Read it with an open mind and it may give you some of the answers and direction you seek . You can always choose not to believe. Thank you for the compliment, by the way.

That's like calling the Programmer to enter the Program; the Writer to enter the Writing; the Composer to enter the Song; the Infinite to enter what is Finite. If God wants to manifest Himself in our world without causing Total Havoc, it will be through a Limited Representation, and all Representations can be mimicked by His Enemy. If something supernatural happened to you, you could still reason that some alien or ET with advanced technology was responsible. I think God already made Himself evident in All That Is. I think He already sent His Avatar. You just choose to deny because you cannot accept. You just can't see the Beauty of it all.

What is evidence or proof anyway but a mere factoid? Something to give weight to a given proposition or hypothesis. You could have a ton of evidence and still you cannot dispel all doubt or say anything with absolute certainty. Science itself says nothing with absolute certainty.

I like this. The reasoning reminds me of the riddle of Epicurus as a similar argument about why god must not exist or simply doesn't care enough to show himself. The problem of evil and all that. It's sound logic, but I think it's hard to say that it actually disproves the existence god because theists always have the convenience of falling back on "human logic doesn't apply to him," etc. etc. Which, by definition, I suppose it wouldn't - even though it works for me.

Also, if god existed, and could or would show himself, then religion would be totally out of business. The middleman would be cut out and the entire notion of having faith would be shattered. So they get to have it both ways by asserting he does exist (and should be obeyed), and he can't show himself because life's a big cruel test and for some reason he requires you to prove yourself to him. It's quite the tidy scam, gotta give them that.