Strong Atheist

Imo, there are no gods or any other higher powers..

cheapxvodka cheapxvodka
18-21, F
68 Responses Mar 25, 2007

I reckon the earth just magically appeared along with what we understand to be "our" galaxy. worry not, proponents of the counterargument can't explain how god came to be...I s'pose he/she/it/they/whatever just magically appeared also. for the life of me I don't understand why you people just can't accept the only reasonable fact there is, it's far beyond our ability to comprehend...that SHOULD humble us. we should be in awe of that unknown that seems to defy REASON...yet, here we are. FASCINATING!

Yeah, a person who thinks for themselves. Explore the freedom of your ideas.

Max: "...belief that the universe is infinitely old, beginningless, or eternal has no basis in any respected mainstream scientific theories of the universe"
The belief that there are gods who are infinitely old, beginningless, or eternal has no basis... anywhere.

Let me (patiently) repeat, yet again (and again)... talking about the expansion of the universe is not (i will repeat this for you, max... not) the same as talking about the origin(s) of the universe

Yep. What we call 'the universe' is actually an 'event'. In progress of course, with a beginning and end, too. As for a.. 'Mr Wonderful', lol
nope. Entropy rules. I like how Tennyson described it in his "Vastness" - An excerpt: "MANY a hearth upon our dark globe sighs after many a vanish’d face,
Many a planet by many a sun may roll with a dust of a vanish’d race.

Raving politics, never at rest—as this poor earth’s pale history runs,—
What is it all but a trouble of ants in the gleam of a million million of suns?"

Yes! That's about it - we're essentially a.. 'trouble of ants' as we dither along with the garbage strewn by the syndicate running our (could be) beautiful little blue planet.

"What is it all but a trouble of ants in the gleam of a million million of suns?"
That's stunningly elegant!

The Steady State Theory of the universe is dead.

"In 1963 Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson, studying the sky's microwave "noise" for Bell Telephone Laboratories, realized that they had detected microwaves coming from all around the sky, a universal background radiation. Robert Dicke, a physicist nearby at Princeton University, learned of the measurement and in 1965 correctly interpreted it as radiation of about 3 degrees Kelvin, left over from the big bang. Dicke had not known about Alpher and Herman's prediction, and had independently thought of the cosmic background radiation. Even before learning of Penzias and Wilson's observation, Dicke had set his former student James Peebles to work on calculating the nature of this radiation. Only later was Alpher and Herman's prediction recovered and appreciated."

"For most purposes, however, the debate between the big bang and the steady state was over in 1965, with big bang the clear winner. Steady-state advocates were reduced to making ad hoc arguments of little plausibility, and they were increasingly marginalized." -American Institute of Physics -

As Theoretical Physicist and Cosmologist Stephen Hawking put it, “the final nail in the coffin of the Steady State theory came with the discovery of the microwave background radiation, in 1965.”

Emphatically, then, the fervent belief that the universe is infinitely old, beginningless, or eternal has no basis in any respected mainstream scientific theories of the universe. It's just more atheistic folderol and wishful thinking.

This creates the necessity for a first uncaused-cause. After all, something cannot come from nothing. This first uncaused efficient cause must also, by necessity, be transcendent, beginningless, timeless, spaceless, immaterial, unchanging, omnipotent, personal and good. As it turns out, such is the very definition of God:


Max: "The space-time universe does not exist out of the necessity of it’s [sic] own nature for it did not exist until 13.70 billion years ago"
Now Max, we've been over this time and time again.... the universe began expanding 13.7 billion years ago. That's not the same as saying that it came into existence 13.7 billion years ago... that's a totally different statement.
Everything that follows your error is therefore invalid.
Try again.

Prove God does not nor cannot exist.

(For those that are curious -

"Compelling Evidence For The Necessary Existence Of God"

Here we go again!!! You have posted this numerous times...YOU CANNOT PROVE A NEGATIVE!!!
When you prove that we are not actually a computer simulation in the x box of a teenager from some technologically superior alien race the We will prove there is no god!
It is the responsibility of those that propose a hypothesis to provide the evidence. Science provides such evidence for its explanations of reality, then the technologists take the discoveries made by science and find applications for them. This is how you come to be using the internet.
Throw away your PC then see if you can use prayer to log on to EP!!!!!

Are you asserting an unrestricted negative can't be proven?

But wouldn't that make your own claim an unrestricted negative?

Accordingly, if unrestricted negatives cannot be proven, then no one can prove that no one can prove an unrestricted negative. And if no one can prove that no one can prove an unrestricted negative, then it must be logically possible to prove an unrestricted negative.

So your casuistic claim that no one can prove a universal negative is self-refuting - if it's true, it's false!

Ex: Proof Santa Claus cannot exist in reality:

Now try and do the same for God. That or retract your puerile assertion.

My assertion is not a negative! It is a positive assertion that is a basic tenet of the scientific method that resulted in the elimination of smallpox just to mention one accomplishment. you can play word games all you want Max, it doesnt make god exist.

So you've changed your mind and agree with me that one can prove a negative, excellent!

Go ahead, then, and prove God does not nor cannot exist. Show us that your gnostic atheism is not a delusion.

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True statement.

guys let her express her opinion. That's what this site is for. Stop jumping down her throat.

(1) Everything that exists has an objective explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause.
Can you prove this statement? How do you know that anything has an objective reality outside of observation by a sentient being? I would submit that your founding statement is rubbish and so it follows that the rest of your argument is rubbish as well.

The alternative would be things "poofing" into existence from nothing, by nothing for nothing. Surely you don't accept such nonsense, do you?

Yep...its called quantum mechanics.

No one can prove the assertion of theists. This why they have faith. Faith is hoping something is true you know is not.

Science does not prove or disprove anything either.

Science does prove and disprove things. Faith neither proves or disproves anything.

No, science only provides information that can later be refuted. Nothing that science proves is the absolute truth or fact.

This is perhaps the silliest statement I have read so far on EP.

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So Max... you're saying that all causes are known and nothing remains unknown so we can finally determine with exactitude the origins of the universe? I, for one, am greatly relieved. I've been puzzled by that for a long time. (/sarcasm off)

Argumentum ad Lapidem. You’ve done nothing to dispel my argument. Try again.

This is his standard line he got from the Watchtower site. Just ignore him.

Aaaaaaand we're off..............again!


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Here’s why the anti-theist’s view of the world is completely delusional:

(1) Everything that exists has an objective explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause.
(A) If atheism is true, the universe has no objective explanation of its existence.
(B) If the universe has an objective explanation of its existence then atheism is false.

(2) The universe exists.
(3) The space-time universe does not exist out of the necessity of it’s own nature for it did not exist until 13.70 billion years ago.
(4) Therefore, the space-time universe exists because of an external cause.

(5) The external cause of the universe must necessarily be a transcendent, beginningless, spaceless, immaterial, timeless, unchanging, omnipotent and personal being.
(6) A transcendent, beginningless, spaceless, immaterial, timeless, unchanging, omnipotent and personal being is the definition of God.
(7) Therefore, the objective explanation of the universe's existence is God.

This is just a series of non-sequiteurs...thats latin for bullshit by the way :-)

Babo, premises (1, A, B, 3, 5, 6) are not the same as conclusions (4, 7) ... Sutor, ne ultra crepidam!

Food for thought:

1. Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
2. You claim God absolutely does not exist.
3. You have limited and incomplete knowledge
4. It's possible God exists outside your knowledge.
5. Therefore you can 'believe' God does not exist, but cannot prove it.
6. Therefore your claim can be summarily dismissed for lack of evidence.

So....lack of evidence in the scientific sense auto-equals God? Maybe there's just something we haven't explored or had explained properly

Not at all. Lack of evidence for the non-existence of God opens the possibility of His existence. In order to confirm this possibility affirmative evidence needs to be presented. Thankfully, this evidence abounds. Question is, do you accept all evidence or just scientific evidence?

Higgs boson !!

Also, to believe something that hasn't been proven would logically lead rational ppl to question it. re wash your brain, I did. The bible is hypocritical and so is the church and their employees.

I agree. Believing in imaginary people is just silly. Just as silly, in fact, as believing the universe came from nothing, by nothing for nothing. You don't really believe everything just "poofed" into existence now, do you?

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I'll be glad to answer any questions!

Question: Can prove, without a doubt, with physical evidence, that is both compelling and rational, that your god is real?

Yes...I could because he is real

Then do it, please.

You have to do it because he is real! Pray and ask God to reveal himself to you...Ask God to show himself real in your life...Please just try it:'( Im not being mean I just want to introduce you to Our God!Yours and mine

No, I'm not asking you to tell me to pray. I'm asking you for proof God is real. Do you understand the question?

Okay he's going to make a change in your life I have faith

That is not proof! I want it from you...Do you understand...the question?

They understand, they have just been brainwashed to say, "nu uh!" every time you point out the flaw in their thinking.

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It brings tears to my eyes because my God is your God!Wheather u believe it or not and he's did so much for me in my life! Don't say you dont believe if you never searched.God is love and even tho yall dont believe he still loves yall and wants a relationship with all of you.Try my God he's The Best...Dont doubt him:-( He is slow to get angry and full of compassion! Try him PLEASE,ASK HIM TO REVEAL HIS SELF AND ILL PRAY TO ON AND HE Will

He cares if nobody else does:) He wanna know what yall are going thru.He wanna relationship with all of you:) He loves you all and if you search for him he will reveal his self to you.He revealed himself to me and im a nobody I dont have anything...But the love of God all over me!

And that's ENOUGH:-)

You did so much for yourself in your life!!! Have faith in yourself, you did al those great things. God will be mad if he Is all forgiving and compassionate? Think about that for a minute.....

When he revealed himself to you, what I'd he look like? How did he do this?

The 'god' of the bible is a sadistic mf who gets off on torture, killing, rape etc. Reminds me a lot of another fictional character named Hannibal the Cannibal.

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At the name of Jesus ever knee on earth and in heaven must bow...And confess that Jesus is the son of God! Infact you are right!There are no (Gods)! Its only ONE true God!That is God Almighty father of Jesus!!! And he does have special powers.He could really make yall believe even if you didn't!But he want do that he gives everybody free will.God and Jesus is the best thing that ever happen to me in Life.

I would advice proof next time.

But still, you would be correct.

Lol, did you read my second post? I'm an atheist, but not really much of a hypocrite. If you say there is a god, then I want proof. If you say there is no god, I still want proof.

Okay Proof...Pray and ask God to reveal something to you! And see what happens:)

Sorry mistake...Pray and ask Jesus to go to God on your behalf,Because you have to go thru Jesus to get to God! And ask him to ask God to reveal his self and im doing for you all right now;)

Nobody is perfect no not ONE! BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM GOD!!!!

Well tell this Jesus character (aka the Meatball Man) that he's wasting his time talking for me about this God character (aka the Flying Spaghetti Monster). I've actually tried praying to the air (one of my weaker moments), and my response was silence and more air. If that's a sign, then your god is pretty subtle and powerless! BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM LOGICAL!!!!

Ok let's not do any name calling...God is alive like I said and his word which is the bible is active.Please just try praying and im praying for you.Just try my God!


I'm an open-minded person. I said-and I quote-"Dear God, if you are a god and you are real, give me a sign." I got nothing. So while you waste your time praying to the air and muttering to nothing for assistance, I think I'll just avoid the genocidal talk and tough this one out on my own.

No please do it again,tell him to reveal himself please do it again and again until u get the full results

You sound like a lotion seller, not a preacher. "No please do it again." So what, the all-powerful god can't hear my thought the first damn time?

Insanity is repeating the same mistake over and over again expecting a different result. The reality is, there is no god.

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<br />,+Ezekiel+38-39,+Matt+24%3A30-42&sourceid=ie8-activity&hl=en<br />
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MANY top scientists, from microbiology to astronomy, see SO much evidence of Intelligent Design that they reject atheist brainwashing & worship the Almighty Creator<br />
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Thanks for the spam.

Is that what that was? Most of those words made no sense to me in the order they were written. So much for authenticity and respect....

If one is to claim intelligent design they should probably move away from our race.

LOL True.

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Picture twins in a mother's womb, the one says to the other, "Hey Brother, do you think there is life after birth? Do you believe in mom? - Nah, I don't believe these things, I'm an atheist. I mean have you ever seen Mom?

that's just stupid, it's been proven, moms are real!! Lol

LOL straw men are so fun to burn down.

I became an atheist when I realized I had to have faith in myself, not in some invisible being to fix things for me. Once I did that then it was no longer faith, because I saw the evidence of my own actions and threw the crutches away. Doctors saved me from going deaf at the age of 6, not god. By the time I realized god wasn't real, I had already been studying all religions HARD for over 4 years. Putting down my belief opened up the missing link to studying religions that I hadn't placed before.. though it was right under my nose. Now I'm thrilled with anthropology, history, science, and more. Whoever thinks atheists are sad, depressed, and angry, couldn't be more wrong. We are more outspoken about important things that people have little to no concern about, because they just CAN'T see the importance. I love being godless, without any doubt whatsoever, EVER.

Let me just say this. You can't see the air that you breathe, but you know it's there. You've never been to the moon, but you know it's there because you see it every night and have studied it in your textbooks...Just because you can't see something, doesn't make it unreal. Just like we can't see germs and viruses, but they are everywhere and on everything.

But besides that, I'm glad you've expanded your knowledge greatly. A passion for learning is such a great thing to have.

"we can't see germs and viruses"
Would you like pictures of some?
i think the word you're hedging around is... evidence.
Science has it.
Religion doesn't have it

This thread has more comments than characters in the post. Also, FYI, loved the steaks under each arm.

I believen god but I dont believe that theres a Hell and Heaven... Or That God Created the world ..Or that if eve would of never ate the fruit from the tree no one would die or what ever...Or that god created People ..Also i disagree that jesus or god loved all people .Because i know in the bible it says you should treat your body as a temple because in the bible god dont like fat people because he think that they are greedy and take more than they need but if he really made all people he made diseases too and its diseases that cause you to be Overweight so ...WAY TO GO God .! But i just want to know does this make me an Atheist???

stephen hawking gives the best evidence against god. "science will trump religion because it works" -Hawking

Exactly no god whatsoever life is much more practical when you don't have to worry about what an old man with a beard thinks about you <br />
I was brought up a catholic so yeah now if I do something bad I won't burn in hell (where I'd probably take over) :)

Yes, have I been summoned? I swear I heard my calling.<br />
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Forgive me for speaking for another atheist, but " there are no gods or any other higher powers" is a simple fact just as "there is no Santa Clause and there is no Easter Bunny" Sorry to rain on your parade. However, we can all still live in peace in haramony. Work for the betterment of our society and provide a better future for our children; we don't need to lie to ourselves to obtain these goals.

There's nothing that proves OR disproves the existence of God. Don't go around spreading such nonsense. And science can not even prove or disprove supernatural things, so we will probably never know what's real or not when it comes to such things if we only rely on scientific knowledge. Many things can't be explained with science, but it doesn't make them any less real.

The irony is that to either declare that "there is a God" simply because of a religious doctrine or to declare that "there is no god or higher power" simply because of a belief are both two sides of the same coin. It is people stating something that they choose to place their beliefs in correct without really knowing the truth of the matter. Atheism is as much about believing in something as religion is. I believe there is nothing to look for and no greater truth to existance or human potential so there is no point in even looking is just as illogical and wrong as the claims of religion. Religions state that we have all the answers to your existance all ready so just follow us and there is no need to seek the truth yourself. <br />
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An enlightend individual would take the scientific aproach by first admiting that they do not know then endevouring to find out what the actual truth is by asking the questions then seeking to find the answers first hand. I have come to my own understanding concerning existance and the nature of the human condition by seeking answers. I really have no use for belief of any kind, either the negative belief of athism or the power and contol beliefs offered by religion. I need to find out first hand for myself before I draw a conclusion. Belief is only for people who do not really know, for if you know what need do you have for either is or it is not.

Just you live your day to day life. Is it under the premise that there is no god? Then would it not be true then that you "believe" there is no god? If you believed that the possability existed that there was some kind of deity, then your day to day would be different in some aspect. You might reflect on the idea of its existence. It is impossible to prove a negative, so is not the burden of proof on the positive, i.e., proving a god's existence? You make the following statement from above...."I believe there is nothing to look for and no greater truth to existance or human potential so there is no point in even looking is just as illogical and wrong as the claims of religion.". And you also state this....."I really have no use for belief of any kind, either the negative belief of athism or the power and contol beliefs offered by religion." There appears a conflict in your thinking about belief. Might I suggest using the work "faith" in its place. Unless one is absolutely convinced that there is no god, there remains a kind of faith that there may be one. Agnostics bear this mark. They may say there is no proof that god exists, yet they are in waiting for it. A certain expectation if you will. Not what one could construe as atheism. Good post though. Food for thought.

Billions of people attend millions of churches around the world to worship God.<br />
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Yet the God they worship is completely imaginary. Their belief represents a delusion.<br />
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It is easy to prove that God is imaginary. -> Get on your knees and pray - Keep praying real hard ask for anything you want - How about ... To stop child abuse, End hunger, Slap a murder, Cure cancer, Rescue children from fire - - - will / has anything happened " NO " of course not because god is not real !!!!!!

Have any of you seen Shamalan's movie The Village? It perfectly illustrates that a society can be taught to believe any kind of ridiculous nonsense, and they will defend it vehemently.<br />
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Its nice to know however that I'm not the only one who doesn't live life in a state of delusion.<br />
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While I'm at it, do you know how many abused children, or children with cancer, could be helped with the money wasted on Mega Churches? Here in FL, they have these sprawling complexes (tax free). Its disgusting.

Diane sorry but you have jumped into the lion's den. You are, in my humble opinion, more of a fool. Afterglow is right atheists are generally more informed than most theists with regard to not just one religion but most religions. Many atheists, myself included, have struggled with their "spritual" position for a great portion of their lives and have come these conclusions with some serious reservations. Who would want to take a position of atheism in a world that is largely hostile to us? It scared me to take the step but I was never more happy than when I finally shed the blanket of superstition. I am now able to take responsibility for my own actions; I can now help others and contribute to charities without feeling like I am doing it to please some god; I can do good for the sake of doing good and not for brownie points with a creator. You see I have always been one of those repugnant bleeding heart liberals and could never understand why folks felt the need to help others only when their church and religion tells them to. It made more sense to me that when you saw someone suffering you did something to help them out of good old human compassion. All people are naturally compassionate but the ironic part of this equation is that religion seems to erase that compassion in a great portion of the "faithful".

Where do your generalizations come from?

No Gods but I believe there is a higher power and it comes from within. Our own thoughts create a higher power. In saying that I also think that a higher power could be intuition and being psychic etc

Thanks Diane. long as you know who are, thats all that matters I guess??

Autimom...Absolutely! Thank you for all your comments and your respect shows wisdom and maturity, and like I said I feel the same about all that religious dogma, sickens go with the coffee!! and what ever else empowers you, I love you and respect you all the same....because I know you will accomplish great things in your life, even with any obstacles that come your way, because of your inner strength! :)

Being an atheist is certainly a part of who I am.

Well this is the atheist group and I was sharing about how I hate religion as well, so no one is saying you have to believe in God..or get married in a church, we all have choices to make in life and we need to follow our spirit and not "the crowd"..we will get lost in the crowd, be who YOU are..

Diane, I can't speak for what is pulsating through your body, but nothing is pulsating through mine but blood. And probably all the coffee I've had today.<br />
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I'm glad you have God and it makes you feel empowered, happy, fulfilled, and so on. That is great. What is important for you to recognize is that I feel empowered, happy, and fulfilled completely Godless and free of all religious dogma. That, my friend, is the point. Respecting each other.

I don't believe in God because I just don't - simple as. I never have and sincerely doubt I ever will. I've never read any of the Bible and don't intend to. I don't attend church on a regular basis - last time I was in one was when I was in the Girl Guides. I intend to get married but not in a church - either in a registry office or outside.

The very Life of God pulsating through the human most definitely NOT Religion... in no way shape or form and that is what makes you more than a master in this world..I have proved it in my own life..

I have read your story and know exactly where you are coming from!! There are SO many in that very same situation.<br />
Please don't think I was being insensitive by not wanting to know about any bodies past or how they got to the place and mindset that they are in now, I just never look back at the past, its my future that counts and where I am going, when we hang on to the past, the regrets, the hurts and bitterness that caused all the problems in our life, it just holds us back from moving forward to become men and woman of greatness and growing into giants so that we can a make difference to someone else's life by our experience<br />
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I too was one who grew up in the church, got it shoved down my throat and told how everything was sinful don't touch, don't eat, don't handle! You'll go to hell if you do this and God will punish you if you do that!<br />
No No NO a thousand times no...Religion has turned everyone so far away from the truth its shameful<br />
Its enough to make anyone run as far as their little religious legs can carry them...Like go away with your rubbish childish nonsense about faith....I know!<br />
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When the spaghetti hits the fan, wheres God if He is in control? Where was He when my parents died or close family children were born with an affliction, what kind of God does this?<br />
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All too many questions and the church offers no answers, so we throw the theory of a loving God out the window and banish Him so far from our minds and go it alone.<br />
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They don't know what to say when you have a sick child, or terminal illness maybe if you pray God will heal you?.....<br />
No idea what the Word of God says....<br />
We are solely responsible for what happens in our life, and we can live a glorious life without pain, sickness, death, guilt or being self righteous or always trying to please everyone else.. but we are so busy blaming our past or our parents or a former loved one that we never move anywhere and no one takes the time to show us how......sorry we do....move usually backwards..<br />
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Thats why I love LIFE.....I am in control of my life I know where I am going, I don't suffer sickness or lack or depression only peace and happiness everyday!! <br />
Simply because I don't practice religion, "play church", I just happen to know what the Word of God says about ME....about life, love and everything else that concerns me and others...:) Have an awesome day!

Nice to see you leave a post trying to explain how and why you feel like you do, Diane. If you have an interest in knowing how I feel specifically you can check out my story in this experience.<br />
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I have never believed in God. Ever. I was raised in a Jewish household and also spent many Sunday's in Sunday school of a Baptist church. I have heard the bible and read numerous books on different religions and on atheism simply because I have a curious mind and like to be well informed. Still, the idea of a God makes no sense to me and I am a nonbeliever and suspect I'll stay that way. <br />
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My husband although not religious believes in God. My very best friend is a strong believer. I don't feel conflicted or tortured about God. I simply don't give it much thought. I don't have any confusion or hatred for God. There is simply nothing there. I don't call myself an atheist because I vehemently deny the existence of God. I'm not angry when other people believe. I can't tell you how little thought I give it in my daily life.

Understanding spiritual things with our mind and logic, looking for proof and signs never gets us anywhere, so perhaps we just decided to throw the baby out with the bathwater and make it easier on ourselves to say there is no God..I did it myself once too...and no I am NOT religious I despise religion and all it stands for, preaching sin, fire hell and brimstone, all it has done is just cause confusion and hatred towards God in the hearts and minds of so many awesome people who truly at one time did believe there was a God...I believe in LIFE.... <br />
We simply cannot understand the things of God with our mind only our spirit, the bible says the things of God are foolishness to them who are perishing, but if we open our spirits because its with the "heart" that man believes... not in his mind, our minds have been so negatively programmed to believe SO many lies, we hear so many voices.. and we just accept sickness, disease, depression, addictions, poverty, and the like.. we just accept it!!!! NO why should we???<br />
Who said we have to and that its part of life??<br />
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Mankind has been so blinded by all the negatives forces in operation in this earth that he cant even FIND truth anymore so he stops looking and just believes a lie...<br />
But theres TOO much power in the Name of Jesus for those forces they were defeated by the blood of Jesus and they know it.... trying to blind us will not work for too much longer...<br />
When our spiritual eyes have been opened to see where we are going..when we "see" with eyes of our spirit only then do we begin to understand <br />
To the wonderful, intelligent, decent men and woman (sorry automom if I called you a girl) that I have found here on this forum, of whom some have messaged me privately, and were by no means arrogant or rude only pleasant, I am not being condescending either, how you all came to this conclusion that you have, will be different for all, we all have had our share of pain and disappointments I am sure and it only boils down to a lack of knowledge and understanding of God's Word, He even said "my people are destroyed for their lack of knowledge" (Hosea 4.6) when I say lack of knowledge, it doesn't mean sense knowledge or general or even science knowledge.... but revelation knowledge of God and who He is and how much He truly loves us, and wants us to bring Him glory in the earth...:)

Why? Why does this god being need us to bring him glory in the earth? Is he that much an egotist? I thought he was already all powerful? Why does he need you to remind him of that fact?
No, it's not a lack of understanding that causes us to turn away, Diane. It's the lack of logic and reason you espouse in your beliefs. It's the blind acceptance of beliefs that have no basis in rationality, that display such a huge degree of arbitrary decision making about what is true and what is not.

The is no god. Like saying the emperor from Return of the Jedi needs worshipers or he will electrocute you. We all know there is no god, some theists just need there to be one, so they invented one.

Diane, I haven't been upset by anything you've had to say. Trying to be condescending and seemingly superior by calling me "sweet girl" was mildly annoying. Trying to tell me how I feel, how we ALL feel that are atheists is just laughable. You have no idea how we feel, and like most small minded people have no interest in knowing. You've asked no intelligent questions or expressed an interest in how we came to be atheists. You aren't interested in us unless you are trying to let us all know how lost and wrong we are. I can't speak for anyone else who is a member of this group but myself I sleep like a baby. It is a gratifying, wonderful, self empowering feeling to know that I alone am responsible for my destiny and happiness in this life. I make my own choices in everything I do based on my own set of ethics and rules. I rely on myself for strength and guidance. I choose to do the "right things" because they make me feel good, not because of a fear of hell or the promise of a gold star in my crown in heaven.<br />
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All religions do not recognize Jesus Christ as the son of God and bow to him. I guess in your opinion they are all hell bound, too. My is it ever going to be crowded down there! :)

Go to heaven for the environment, go to hell for the company.

Mark twain. Nice. (society)

diane, why do we care what you think? Because people like you breed, you infect your litters with the myths and fables you hold so dear, then your brood breeds and sooner then later your selfish gene has lowered the pool to such an extent that we could have some moron from texas as president who wages war because god told him too and..... never mind

Diane31, I'm not going to go shoving "you're wrong just go away blah blah blah" down your throat via this comment box, because I'm sure there's already caustic ones already there, before and after me (I do dislike how witch-hunted things like this can get, but hey, in this scenario you kinda walked right into the lion's den with a pack of steaks under each arm, so good luck to you on your journey, and please don't look to me for sympathy for taking such actions that defy rationality, although I'm sure you wouldn't be anyways).<br />
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What I am going to nit-pick about, though, is that your original quotes statement was later backed by yourself as "fact". To me, a fact denotes truth absolute. To me, absolute truth cannot be achieved without a proof of sort; and, absolutely and unequivocally, proof denies faith by their own distinct and respective definitions. <br />
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If Jesus was a true son of God, and the Christian God was the sole, only, true, and end-all God, the only proof for such people as us (who tend towards solid logic and rationality, denying mysticism in all shapes and forms) would hand-in-hand prove his existence, but it would also completely dissolve faith, because faith in him would not exist anymore, because it has been proven. Hence just as atheists keep saying "prove it" or "who knows" or what-not (and the other side keeps saying "I know because Jesus is in my heart" or whatever other reasonings), both sides are in an endless cycle of nay-saying or rebuttal; save those who aren't sure of their convictions, and in that sense, would you rather have a untrue Christian turn leave and follow for fear of their ignorance on the topic that you choose to focus on (or would atheists want someone who just wants to be rebellious for the sake of it)? Or would you rather have someone who finds their answers and comes to their distinct decision by their own accords? Because the latter would be a true follower; the former...well, I'd rather have a true soldier with a purpose to cover my assault path, instead of someone who is there because they knew no other path, or had others convince him it was "for the better good" for him to be there.<br />
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I'm sure in you're world and in your mindset and in your beliefs it is (most probably) absolute fact, and I say: More power to you, go on with your good self. However, as firm as you are in your beliefs, some people, (sometimes by logic along) choose as firmly to be in their own beliefs, and do not take kindly to being told they "just don't know" as that's a sign of ignorance, and I'll admit ignorance when it comes to factual information that I know little or nothing of, but logic and rationality alone are my weapons and my choices that I utilize to come to my conclusions of atheism, and I have yet to be disarmed.<br />
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Good day.

The bottom line is that religious thought is, at its base, non-rational. People who argue from this basis don't respond to logic and rationality because their whole basis of belief is not rational. trying to argue rationally with these people is a waste of time.

Thankyou Diane you lightened my morning, it is so funny that you believe all this delusional crap you are spouting. You prove the non-existance of any god. I'm not going to bother with any more posts here because when it comes down to it you and your religion are the true essence of evil, and arguing with you is as pointless as you arguing with us. It isn't debate it's abuse, and you aren't worth the effort.<br />
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So then why try to explain and defend yourself? If you are right and you know for sure that you are, you wouldn't get upset by anything I have to say, you get upset and fight back with all that is with in you simply because each and every one of you, deep down in the core of your very spirit, is not absolutely sure that you ARE right...I even know that one of you who responded to this forum, did NOT sleep well last night and had disturbing dreams, simply because you have no peace and are not settled in your very spirit. His name is Jesus, the name above EVERY other which EVERY knee will bow.

autimom, perfect.<br />
Diane, why not try to take a little control over your own life, stop blaming the devil because your well went dry or the crops died. For godsake get over yourself in the idea that some nazi in the sky gives a rats *** over anything that goes on in your life. I can understand you feel alone and that people point at you and whisper, this happins a lot to creatures from the lower end of the gene pool as yourself, but looking to a god for solice is a vain attempt at self agrandizment and your previous comments prove there is nothing grand about you.

"Only a fool says in his heart there is no God"<br />
That is what you said, so yes you called us fools. Keep your deluded self-righteous platitudes to yourself, they are not wanted, they are certainly inappropriate here and like you they revolt me.

"Only a fool says in his heart there is no God"<br />
That is what you said, so yes you called us fools. Keep your deluded self-righteous platitudes to yourself, they are not wanted, they are certainly inappropriate here and like you they revolt me.

Well thanks for the interesting input, you think I am a fool, I never said you were fools, those are not my words..... Only time will tell whether I am a fool or not..My wish for you all is that you find great happiness in whatever it is that you believe....Grace and peace to you all in the matchless name of Jesus... The name above every other name, to which every knee will bow...

"Only a fool says in his heart there is no God"<br />
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It's alright, because conversely, only a fool says in her mind there is a God. And lets be honest, the mind is nearer the truth much more often than the heart :)

If my heart feels love, joy truth and pain, if I know everything deep down inside my heart, then what's the use of my brain? Heart beats blood. I think the human race needs to realize that.

Thank you autimom, I couldn't have put it better, Diane is exactly why I loathe religious believers. Again and again their vile belief systems and arrogance offer conclusive proof to me that there cannot be a god, and how much better the world would be if they all just vanished.

I don't see anything Christ-like about taking what I said out of context by insinuating I was picking a fight, quite the contrary, just a clever way to try twist what I was trying to say, but then again you wouldn't understand it anyway, not yet..... I apologized for offending you, and take no offense to what has been said here.. When you look inside yourself maybe then you will understand fully..

First of all, I'm a woman, not a girl. Second of all, I don't believe for a second you were trying to help anyone. You were trying to be condescending and let us all know how much better informed you are then us. <br />
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Take some lessons from my dear friend Jamminman. He personifies what a Christian is supposed to be. People like you are what makes a mockery out of so called "Christians." I see nothing Christ-like about someone trying to pick fights. <br />
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I truly hope in the moment of my death I am thinking more important thoughts.

I am sorry if I offended you, sweet precious girl, but one day when you die, you'll be asking where was that Diane31 that tried to help me...and I didnt listen...<br />
Bye<br />
Have a great life sweet girl!! :) I love you did not mean to offend you in any way!

I'm thinking of a Beatles song right now:<br />
"See the people standing there who disagree and wonder why they don't get in my door."<br />
Diane31, it would appear that you're spoiling for a flame war. Are you trolling?<br />
I happen to be Christian, but I'm not sure that the Christian thing to do is to go into someone's group, and tell them they are wrong or clueless. It seems to me your more likely trolling or causing contention, which you may want to examine within the practice of your religion.<br />
I do happen to know some folks with very deep knowledge of the bible (reading the greek and latin texts) who do not believe it. That's ok. Judging by the number of sects and practices out there in Christianity, you can't legitimately say that the bible is going to be definitive. Discourse about belief is perfectly ok, and someone expressing their non-belief should not challenge you in any way. <br />
Maybe it's time to practice the Golden Rule - see Matt 7:12 and Luke 10:27. Somehow, I don't think trying to belittle folks is truly loving your neighbor.

You aren't here to change anyone's mind? Then what are you doing posting in a forum on atheism? Trying to understand why we believe what we believe? No. Trying to tell us how "wrong" we are and flat out telling me I don't know what I am talking about when it comes to FACT that many atheists are well versed on the bible? Most atheists are intelligent, thinking people who gather information before we make up our mind on how we feel on a subject. Many went to church for years as children and know the bible up and down.<br />
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I don't care what you believe. I'm not over in the forums on faith and religion telling them they are all fools. I don't care what they believe. What are you doing in a forum for atheists telling us we are all fools? What purpose is it serving for you?

I am not here to change anybodies mind, you all have your own choices to make in life, just stating a fact you either choose life or death, clearly you choose the latter... There is absolutely no way on this earth that any of you have any knowledge of the bible, if you did you would not be on this forum.....

Sorry Diane31, but you've come to a forum where the members are more likely to believe that those that believe in the ridiculous notion of a creator God is the fool. Many, many atheists have extensive knowledge of the bible and different religions. We don't disbelieve because we are not informed, it is because we ARE informed. We see how it is all a bunch of bullshit. You are not going to change any minds here.

I agree, brainwashing bs

you are so very right

And it most certainly has nothing to do with superstition what so ever.whether you accept the fact of being a fool or not what it really boils downs to a lack of knowledge, no matter which way you look at is simple if you just understand it, many just throw out the idea of God because it doesn't suit their way thinking thats all..and they suffer needlessly as a result..

Its wasn't meant as an insult....its a fact!

How is it a fact? have you see this so called god? if you believe in that then you believe in the devil too? why not worship him, gods no better. they are both fairy tales, brainwashing bs.

think about fossil fuels what did those come from then try to explain your god.

Then I'm a fool, but as this is coming from the superstitious section of society it is barely an insult.

I dont think you read my comment right.....I said, " It is only a fool that says...." "There is no God"

cheapxvodka, I'm with you on this one. I don't believe in God or any other higher powers.

"Only a fool says in his heart there is no God"

Your right ive found god in my heart right were the blood should be
ARRGH URRGH Heartattack


"And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?"


Almost universally it is seen as a lesser position by the religious, as if I'm missing something, and having been brought up a catholic I know that I am missing nothing, and am better off without the taint of superstition that when it comes down to it says the universe is run by magic.

Question. Is that your opinion, is that a conclusion drawn from the best available evidence, and a congruent understanding of the way the world works? ;) (That may have been a loaded question. I often put that imo in as well, but often it's not really just a matter of opinion, because the reasons for atheism are every bit as strong and deep as they are for holding a religion. Sometimes I think that people who do believe in a religion mistake atheism as some sort of lesser position).