Hmm

I've been thinking quite a bit lately about why people believe in god and religion and all of those things and I must say, it really is an appealing idea. To believe that everything happens for a reason, there is a master plan for all of us, and that in the end everyone will get what they deserve is a really nice thought. I wish that I could believe something like this but really I don't see how (logically) anyone can. All a person has to do is turn on the tv to see what today's travesty is in order to know that there is no god or master plan. All of the pain and suffering in the world should be proof enough that religion is wrong and if everyone thought logically then this wouldn't even be a discussion, just fact. That's not even taking into account all of the scientific evidence disproving the bible and all of these mythological events on to which religion desperately clings.

The sad thing is, however, that we are not a logical, rational species. Yes there are a few of us who can look beyond the bull **** and see the world for what it truly is but is that enough to make a difference? To change the face of this world and show people the harsh truth? I wish it was, as it would basically stop every war and all of these "my god's better than your god" ******* contests. 

All I'm saying is, religion is a nice thought and a great bedtime story (not unlike Humpty Dumpty and The Boy who Cried Wolf) but these fables are nothing to devote your life to. The sad truth is god does not have your back, he is not all knowing and constantly trying to make things better, and there is no grand scheme to things. We are all on our own and the sooner we can understand that, the sooner we can actually start doing some good in this world.

godsmack666 godsmack666
18-21, M
35 Responses Mar 1, 2009

It is strange how many people genuinely use "But isn't my belief more comforting than yours" as an argument.

Hey, you know that night you got really drunk? You bumped into Heidi Klum and checked into a hotel together. A taxi dropped you off at home six hours later and you passed out on your bed.

What, you don't believe me? Why not? Don't you WANT it to be true?

And please, when we talk about God this means some intelligent "being"(s) - that might have implanted here first intelligent nature (with the help of mushrooms for example, they was here 1.3 billion years ago after all and still up to today it's hard to find many more intelligent parts of nature then mushrooms - in terms what they can do, what they have done (Paul Stamets can fill in some caps) and what they will do if we are willing to learn & armastama. <br />
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Besides, soon we will have mind to start to understand: ψυχή δηλοῦν ) - this will be the new time that we have read/heard about so much

"There isn't any good in believing in god, especially when there is a high probablility that you will have to kill members of other religions because "god tells you to" "<br />
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- It's totally ok to understand, to feel that there is god or gods if we understand that god Loves us All. So that one does not want to kill people - but people want to kill people. There is difference. Also No One should Ever do any deeds that one does not understand. After all it should be intelligent progress, as intelligent as possible and if it's possible to educate people to think for them selves them we should do it AND learn from them same time, as God is in all of us, maybe yes. <br />
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It's arrogant to blame god(s) for mistakes of people - if god really wants to kill someone (god know what reasons) then one would speak with all these people directly, but even then we need to think today - before actions as there is soon to be know tools of us that might be able to make illusion in our heads. Let's hope these tools are used soon only for good <br />
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(good - well, pretty vague term when it comes to structures like that that are run by people who do not know Love and some other basic needed teachings that help us to get there)

No need to apologize Godfree, I completely understood what you meant and I'd be surprised if the rest of us didn't as well. They are going through hell in darfur and you are completely right in your assessment that that little poem or idea that god is carrying us through the worst of times holds little (if any) weight out there and (as most of us would be) they'd probably be insulted by it. <br />
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Stevester, thank you for the clarification on the Ireland front and hopefully that gets through to everyone who considered that to be simply caused by liberation.

All other points have been clarified, so allow me to say just this one thing, I was not commenting on the beliefs of the "mother" in Darfur, her ignorance due to lack of education and prevailing culture sanctifies her beliefs. My comments were to the little idiot who spewed that piece of flotsam and jetsam as if it were a bandage to the worlds woes.<br />
If I conveyed anything but total empathy towards the people who suffer anywhere like they do in the hell that is Darfur, I apologize.

A couple of points <br />
its not the number of imams preaching hate it is the impact of their message compared to the moderates.<br />
The war in Ireland was fought on religious lines. That one side wished to overcome British rule does not negate the actions perpetrated using religion as the identifier. My brother lost his life because a loyalist terrorist was able to identify him due to his route to work. He was a musician and poet not an activist and was killed due to his religious persuasion. The man who killed him is also dead. I have read some of his comments in a book about loyalists, he identified all catholics as his enemy. I am glad he is dead.<br />
Clergymen in Ireland had the opportunity to influence their flock to accept certain compromises such as the 1973 agreement and the 1995 agreement but chose to stir up strife and used the platform of their churches to spread this message. The argument that god doesn't influence all this due to free will makes me wonder what bloody use He is?

Religion is intolerant of everyone who doesn't believe in what they do. This is the main problem I have with it Adjyo. They all preach peace, forgiveness and what not on the surface but deep down it has always been a single message, "agree with us or die". The Crusades were a tremendous example of this as well as the protestant reformation and (more recently) 9/11 and other radical issues occuring in the Middle East. Free will may be an issue, but as VendettA said, it is merely a front, a cover. It keeps "god" safe from scrutiny under the public's blinded eyes and shields the followers from the painful truth that if god is indeed real, then he is an *******. But that is just another cover for the ever-more painful truth that there is no god. If people could actually see beyond the bs and lies then the world would indeed be a better place. As VendettA clearly stated it would not make all of the world's problems vanish, not remotely, but it would pave the way towards a better tomorrow and that is something we should all wish to see.<br />
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Sadly theists do not understand this and still look towards their "god" for answers and the solution to all of the world's woes, even though it is blatantly obvious (save the cheerleader, save the world :P).

I read accounts of what life is like in countries like Saudi Arabia. Read "Infidel" by Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Within countries like Saudi Arabia there are different sects, some are more "hardline" and others are more modernized. In some Muslim countries it would be deeply shameful to not wear a hijab, in others any woman wearing one would stick out. Read about female circumcision and honor killing, a custom where it would be required to kill your sister if she was raped because that rape would bring shame to your family. Read of the brutal oppression of women in these cultures and you won't believe that it is describing a country in 2009, because it more closely resembles what we would think of as the Dark Ages. <br />
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I have read enough of the Qur'an to know that it claims to be the perfect word of the creator (Allah). It even claims to be so perfect that it challenges anyone to try to find a single mistake in it and says no one will be able to because it is such a work of perfection. lol. <br />
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Now such pronouncements are pretty silly, given the sheer number of obvious mistakes in it, but the sinister side effect of claiming that this book is the Perfect word of Allah kinda hints at the fact that things in it aren't open to interpretation or optional. Pure Muslims are required to treat women as slaves, like cattle. Do you defend that as merely a cultural difference that we shouldn't criticize? <br />
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Perhaps you've forgotten the public celebrations that occurred in Islamic countries after 9/11? Or maybe you're not familiar with the outrageous riots over the Danish cartoons? Like Sam Harris says in the following article: "Islam is a religion of peace, and if you say that it isn't, they will kill you"<br />
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/losing-our-spines-to-save_b_100132.html

What is your basis for assuming that the terrorists are the ones whose interpretation is right? What does 'jihad' mean? Yes, I know it means holy war. It also refers to the war that takes places within an individual - the war between good and evil. It depends upon which imam you listen to.<br />
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How much of the Qur' an have you actually read? Osama bin Laden and his buddies backed themselves up by scripture. It's not self-evidently there. I could choose bigotry from among the various athiest literature around... am I "picking and choosing, cafeteria style" because I call myself athiest but don't condemn religion and those who practice it?<br />
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Who are you to say that the nice peaceful folks "really aren't that muslim at all"? They pray five times a day, fast during ramadhan, give alms to the poor, hope to visit mecca... and they identify themselves as Muslim. By what authority do you sit outside and judge them insufficiently Muslim?

No one here is saying that the world's problems would vanish if there were no religion. It's a perfectly valid point to claim that religion fuels the atrocities and hatred around the world. It's so sad to see so many people be religious apologists. <br />
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As for the comments directed at stevester, Islam is by no means a religion of peace. Is it possible for a Muslim to be peaceful and a good person? Of course, as long as they ignore wide swaths of the Qur'an and the Hadith. It's the same old story, their religion is much like the Old Testament, filled with barbarism and violence. Most Christians wouldn't recognize any morality in the Old Testament. And so they pick and choose, cafeteria style, what ever parts they like. <br />
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The problem of course is that since there is so much hatred and bigotry in these so called holy books that it can justify all sorts of disgusting acts. Osama Bin Laden and the 19 hijackers were backed up by scripture, they were fighting a jihad against the Western Christian infidels who continued to have military bases in Saudi Arabia, the Holy Land. <br />
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So you see, to excuse religion's role in inconvenient events like 9/11 is the height of foolishness. It was an explicit religious act backed up by scripture. If anything, they were true Muslims and the nice peaceful folks you come across that say they are Muslim really aren't that Muslim at all.

And, Godfree, be careful whose suffering you invoke. That's exactly the point I'm trying to make - the mother in Darfur DOES give a crap. OK, maybe not about the poem, but religion is a central part of her life. She KNOWS it won't bring her baby back and she still believes. Religion belongs to the innocent victims, too.<BR><br />
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Have you met many people from the warzones you describe? I have, I work with them every day. None of them hate me because I'm an athiest - although several of them find it baffling. I'm quite open about being an athiest so that their shock can wear itself out on me rather than on someone less tolerant in the 'outside' community. Certainly none of them want me dead. ALL of them (by 'them', I'm talking about the people I've worked with) have religions of their own, and I am quite sure that they would not see their suffering, which is immense, as contradictory to it.<br />
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And yes, these people are uneducated and pre-literate. Many of them have suffered malnutrition as children, inhibiting the capactiy of their brains to develop (factors resulting from poverty, not religion). But they are NOT stupid. I have a great deal of respect for any woman who carries her children across three borders to seek safety. Whatever my own beliefs, I will not call her stupid because she has a god.<br />
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Perhaps we could substitute the word "bigotry" for the words "religion" and "god". I think I'd probably agree with you then.<BR><br />
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Stevester - who do you refer to as the islamofascists? and what do you think the word "infidel" actually means? what proportions of imams do you believe *actually* preach that doctrine?

The war in Ireland was fought over religion? No, it wasn't. It was a war of secession. It was fought over politics and the desire to be free from British rule. <br />
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There are millions of ordinary people in this world who subscribe to one religion or another. Those people aren't haters and it is them I seek to excuse. If what you are claiming were true, 90% of the world's population would currently be at war... and yet there are people living peacefully in many places, even with the scurge of religion. <BR><br />
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I think religion is a tool used by evil men (and, yes, men: how often are they women?) to perpetrate evil acts. I think religion is a means of keeping people ignorant and feeding them whatever political agenda the denomination has going. But I think it's oversimplifying matters greatly to say that religion is the cause of war.<BR><br />
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Do you honestly believe war would end in its absence? Do you honestly believe the crusades wouldn't have been fought under some other name?

God hides behind free will and Satan to wash his hands of the misery and suffering in the world. <br />
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It's quite a cowardly move.

Ya, "death to the infidel" carries more weight than "death to the capitalist" or any other label you can come up with. I'm not sure why people try to excuse religion's key role in the suffering of the world. Like Jon Stewart said: religion comforts people in a world torn apart by religion.

wish I'd wrote the above, "jesus dropped the ball" lol. GF rocks.<br />
Whilst there's some merit in the argument that religion is simply the identifier for ethnic conflict it doesn't cover the hatred of our dear friends, the islamofascists, who hate us all irrespective of religion or geography. The philosophy of the imams is death to the infidel. I hope they enslave the female human rights lawyers in the UK who argue so eloquently to excuse their terrorism. That's not sexist as they will have executed all the male infidel ones.

Just a point if I may. The crusades were fought about religion, the planes that crashed into the world trade center, were piloted by guys with a religious agenda, the war in Ireland was about religion and the reformation was a religious war.<br />
In regards to the poem "Footprints", what a dear little piece of fluff, if your a western christian who suffers because your trials include living a life with only one toaster or missing little bobbys flute recital because the mini van got a flat. How wonderful that jesus carried you over these nightmares.<br />
But this poem means crap to a mother in Darfur, who clings to the body of her dead child days after it died because she cant find a decent place to bury it. Jesus apparently dropped the ball on the children of the congo as they were having thier limbshacked off by warriors of other tribes. And boy did jesus miss the boat in dealing with the aids virus, seems his creation is mutating into a more resistant virus. I think the real footprints are those of jesus and his crew walking up your back and dancing on your head (pardons to our non dancing baptist friends)

Ok... I agree with just about everything that you intelligent athiests have said here, and just about everything in the original post, with one exception: wars are NOT fought over religion. Wars are fought over land, race, opportinuties, money, oppression, freedom. Religion happens to be the clearest dividing line that WE and our media are able to discern. It's also a useful motivational tool for those leading the wars. But if you look more closely you'll see that religion is only connected to these wars insofar as it is inseperable from the ethnic identities of those who are fighting. Removing religion from the world would change nothing when it comes to war. Its causes would remain.

I'll take inconvenient logic over wishful thinking any day, but hey, that's just me.

Good idea, but it would be necessary to have at least one Christian or one Muslim to taunt. They could be suspended above the table in a cage.

Yeah, there's a group of 8 of us. We enjoy it. We call it out "Christless" Dinner.......LOL We mostly talk politics though because that's what brought us all together. Come on! The more the merrier! We can turn some "Prayers before dinner" people's heads!

I have some atheist friends who are wonderful people. Personally I do have deep spiritual beliefs but I'm not a card-carrying member of an organized religion. I'd say "You may not believe in god, but god believes in you or else you wouldn't be here", but in matter of fact, we all come to our beliefs (or lack of same) on our own paths, and it isn't right for anyone to shove their feelings, thoughts, or beliefs down anyone else's throat, I don't think. As long as a person is compassionate, kind, and caring, that's what matters most.

Well, that furthers the point that if "god" really loves us, why are so many of us miserable and suffering while the few are content. Why are some of us forced to deal with much more difficult "tests" than others if god is supposed to love us equally. There are so many inconsistencies in religion.<br />
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I agree Jojo, this group truly a godsend (hopefully someone will enjoy that one, lol). I do get tired of people constantly pushing their religion on me and if I try to reason with them or say something then I am the one that gets "disciplined". I love this room and being able to have these discussions is fantastic :)

Yes, I agree. It goes back to my basic premise that if "God" really loved you, why would he have you go through terrible things. And I don't even want to hear "God never gives you more than you can handle" or you wouldn't need to be carried like in that sappy poem. <br />
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I'm so happy to be having this great discussion with you all in this group because I suspect outside of here, we don't get much of that. I have some atheist friends and we have Atheist Night Dinners every few months but we talk politics! LOL Thanks to all of you!

Don't apologise Dedre, no one wants to hear that they need to be carried through the hardest times in their life. We all want the oppurtunity to get through those times on our own and the idea of god stepping in to take away that oppurtunity sickens me. It's basically like saying a person is too retarded to do something that they need to do in order to grow as a person, and that's not right<br />
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Besides, I'm pretty sure god carrying us through those times has absolutely nothing to do with the truth of things.

As neat as the footprints poem is (My mum has had a painting with it in her living room forever), I would be pissed if someone were carrying me through the most trying times of my life, it'd be like a crutch, like then I would know that I can't survive dramatic moments on my own.<br />
Sorry, I think too highly of myself for that kind of thinking.

As always Betty, I completely agree, lol

Sorry Jojo, you left your comment while I was writing mine. It is true, theists will never be able to grasp the idea that this is their only shot at life because (oh no) then what we do in this life holds so much more meaning. They don't want to believe that this is their one and only shot because the pressure to do everything that needs to be done is too great. <br />
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Everyone in this experience seems to have a much greater understanding of this and I'm happy to be able to say that :)

Thank you all for your comments. Occidentallis, thank you very much for saving me a seat, hopefully we won't need it ;)<br />
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Betty, you make a lot of good points and in actuality you are 100% right. There isn't any good in believing in god, especially when there is a high probablility that you will have to kill members of other religions because "god tells you to". And I think that if more people thought like you and your father then life would be much much easier.<br />
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Godfree- You're completely right, everyone on here has been very welcoming and warm in sharing their viewpoints. I think that if more people could read the blogs on here than it may be easier for them to accept god as a fable.<br />
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Hopefully the world will take that turn but from what I know about history and religion, it's not going to happen anytime soon.

You guys are all so thoughtful and thought provoking in your reasons for not believing. And to know that we are happy with where our minds are on this subject. And to think we are good, kind, loving and compassionate people is astounding. I personally am alright with the thought that there is nothing after this life. Zilch, nada, nothing. I really feel that some people can't handle the thought of nothingness..... there has to be "something" to account for their existence. So, my thoughts while growing up, my science education and personal conclusions are good for me. If theists find comfort in some "God" or some fictional stories, more power to them, just leave me out of your delusion.

Well, i still think that intelligent design theory is not to much worst then big band theory. - this is way they call it theory because it has newer been proven yet. <br />
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Well for me makes more sence Urantia book then bible. In urantia book it says that Jesus did not die because of all bad thing we did and will do - but because religious fanatics killed him, he was threatening the system they tried to set up, also that he did not perform most of these miracles, etc - now this is more real then fiction in bible. I am not sore about all the science in Urantia book- sometimes it's seems to be written by using science what was available after 1930's but still -its interesting read whit great points - probably to complicated for most people (2000 pages) and definitely not book for people who are happy whit their own religion. <br />
And if anyone knows who are the Nephilim's they talk about in bible and in other religious writings?<br />
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U can read reviews about Urantia from amazon & there is more some links http://ubwebsites.com - i would be thankful if someone would help me to find the answer who is author of this book (maybe some better answer then aliens). It's not just some writeup of random text - so average author would not be able to complete this kind of work.

well it is matter of understanding and faith.... i personally strongly believe in God.. and i am not here for fun but with a purpose and i belive life after death and i also belive that i shall be accountable for my actions over here in front of God.. <br />
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Yes every thing is happen for a reason but there is always a cause behind the reasons which all cannot understand and have abilit to see.. .. ..<br />
Hell and heaven . i think it depend on us and its very natural that if you will do good and hard work you well be rewarded.. and if you are going to office and just sleep on your table and did not do any thing . i think no one going to bear you there for long time.. .. <br />
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As once Albert Einstein Said:_<br />
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"Science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion. To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind"

ditto

I agree with you. All that mythological bull **** about a god and a master plan is something I can't find myself beleiving. Friends and family criticize me because I'm going ot go to "hell" and not to "heaven" but they have no way to prove what they say is right. No one has managed to come back from death, so those are just myths. We can't know for sure what happens, not even if we have a soul. <br />
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I agree with you, and if we're going to "hell", I'll save you a spot.....XD

I wish this blog and all its posts could be shared with the world. You people are so erudite and yet personal and warm. I know its hard for people to wrap thier minds around the idea that atheism is in fact liberation from a mental and emotional shackle.<br />
Betty, the idea that you and your father were able to overcome your grief a little faster, I think says a lot, if I had any faith in religion I would have to have not only mourned my mothers death but also fear that the poor soul was awaking to the sadistic hell of christianity. I too was able to contain my grief to the missing of a loved one and nothing more.

Nothing is more important and fundamental to my beliefs than the belief that I only have this chance to get it right. That this life is everything and I must value it from now on. That is what keeps me going, self importance. I needed that so much. I always thought it was selfishness, never understood it..