God Saved Me

One single person from the upper floors of the twin towers survived.  Horribly burned, when the lone survivor left the hospital after more than a year, he made a brief statement to the media saying that it was a miracle that he survived and that god has saved him.

What about the 2,973 that died, I guess they weren’t sufficiently pious for God to have found them worthy of saving. 

Time and time again after tragic events I hear ‘God/Jesus/the Lord saved me’.   Excuse me but what about everyone else that died?

A woman was brutally beaten by a house invader that after raping her put her in her bathtub, stabbed her, choked her, hit her in the head with a hammer and when he found that she was still alive, the rapist used a hammer to pound a knife into her head.  Amazingly she was still alive after all this. 

Thinking she was dead, the intruder began collecting her jewelry but was having difficulty removing the rings from her fingers.  In her thoughts this poor woman pleaded with God that her attacker not cut off her fingers and when he did not she said that the Lord had answered her prayers.

I guess the Lord must have been fixing himself a sandwich when she was having a knife pounded into her head with a freaking hammer! 

MtnMig MtnMig
36-40, M
52 Responses Feb 15, 2010

What you don't understand is that God's work is our own. It's up to each and everyone of us to conquer evil. Why do bad things happen to good people? Read the book of Job.

Because God makes a bet with Satan?

That was not the point in the Book. God never gave Job the reason for things happening. It wasn't for him to know. But there was a reason. That was a point. You can prey til the cows come home. You can be the nicest most charitable person on Earth but you still may encounter the worst of life's problems. God doesn't promise you a Rose Garden. But he does promise that he'll always be with you. And when your life is over with and you faced those problems, your soul will be much wiser and compassionate when the Lord takes you to a place of rest.

Of course God saved that one man! He was the best Christian and he went to mass and confessed his faith. All the other couple thousand weren't good enough people for God to save, because EVERYONE knows God only saves the worthy faithful people. Ugh, such a mess. Freud was right, organized religion is civilization's cancer. The day humans realize that God is a phony and a fake is the day we take a huge step forward.

You sure are full of "wisdom":))))

And not all the wisdom in the world could tell me if that was sarcasm or not.

lolol:)))

An unconvincing argument against Christianity, given the religion's focus on free will. Those people suffered because other humans hurt them, which free will gives them the ability to do.

A better argument is one that focuses on natural disasters. There are quite a few arguments around this- its a debate that's been going on for two thousand years- but it isn't as easily answered as the one where humans harm humans.

But it's not presented as an argument against theism. It's presented as an example of the screwed-up outlook religion can give people.

What if I reported that 'my god' doesn't want anymore christians and says they should be killed. Just because I said it makes it so? Just because it was passed down to me makes it a fact? You people are repeating (like parrots) what's been said to without even the slightest thought about what your parroting. "...he needed them in heaven...God has power to control everything but lets things run to a large extent because he gave mankind freedom to choose how he wants to behave..." And, "We live in a world which was originally perfect, but where mankind has by and large chosen to reject God. We cant have it both ways." Then when crappy things happen to YOU, do you immediately take the blame? I would go stark raving nuts if I had to twist reality into some distorted idea of why bad things happen. It's called POOR COPING. It's delusional. It's child-like. This world is set up to promote life. Literally. As in metabolism, reproduction, prosperity, dominance, etc. The whole game is about making it as pleasant and successful as possible. We are lucky because we have the brain power to exponentially increase the positivity of being a species living on this planet, in this solar system, in this universe. NOW. Nature doesn't give a damn about how much you tithed (except that you're giving your resources away), or how much time you spend on your knees (except that your bio life is not infinite and your wasting your precious time) or who you listen to and follow (except that they better be pretty successful and have a proven way to measurably and objectively improve your life (or again your wasting your precious time or worse yet, ONLY adding to the success of THEIR life ). Nature has one objective...the fittest survive.

I think you were referring to the garden of Eden "a world that was originally perfect". You know what I love about that storry? It says a lot about the MEN WHO WROTE IT. Man was given paradise (in contrast to the world as they saw it) and after that disobey him, god kicks them out. And thence forth we are all born with a defect (original sin). The real world be a lot nicer if the religious spent alittle time there. What we've learned about our world in the last 200 years is far more interesting than a 2000 year old morality tale.

May God bless you all and bring you to the knowledge of the truth.

How do you know he hasn't?

Cause according to that argument, someone who you say isn't real spoke to you...

I remember back when i was still going to church, the priest told us all to thank the lord for being with us during a natural disaster that had just killed many people in another part of the country. All i have to say is where was he during their last hours?

If that is the case and God is in control of everything then he/she or it is a mass killer of Children, unborn babies and and everyone that has been killed by what ever means good or bad because God is in control, you can't have it both ways either this God is incontrol or not which is it.?

You say god gave mankind freedom, but Freedom isnt something that is given. Its something that we are all born with and have a right to. We shouldnt have to earn it.

You are completely delusional.

The "lord" was taking a break in some other part of the Universe last Friday and missed the slaughter of 12 innocent children and 8 adults - some of whom died trying to protect them - by a mentally unbalanced teen aged nutter. Check out what that deluded William Lane Craig had to say about this on youtube in defence of his "god"!!
He certainly works in mysterious ways.....the "lord" that is....

Amen,That's right I totally agree! God is everything a person could want and need!I like that

The Lord works in mysterious ways.

ATHEISM IS PRIME BRAINWASHING BS LAXATIVE<br />
<br />
http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aendtime+Bible+prophecies+are+soon+to+be+fulfilled%3F+Zechariah+12%3A2-8,+Ezekiel+38-39,+Matt+24%3A30-42&sourceid=ie8-activity&hl=en<br />
<br />
MANY top scientists, from microbiology to astronomy, see SO much evidence of Intelligent Design that they reject atheist brainwashing & worship the Almighty Creator<br />
<br />
http://www.DissentFromDarwin.org<br />
<br />
http://www.IntelligentDesign.org<br />
<br />
http://www.creation.com

In the interest of time and the futility of arguing with evolution deniers, I will say something ever seldom say - but I'm a scientist, a biologist to more precise and I have never met, spoken to any biologist that believes in the intelligent design cacamania. It has absolutely no scientific support whatsoever. The websites you have included are nothing but utter junk science that no real biologiest would ever take seriously.

Believing in God and believing in so called intelligent design are two very different things.

Great story. I think Bill Maher said it best when he said, and I'm paraphrasing here, "when there's a tragedy like a plane crash where 200 people die & one child survives, that's not God intervening to save the child, that's God blowing a no-hitter with 2 outs in the bottom of the ninth."

I judged no one, I pointed out what I think many people would which is what happens to those that are not saved. I'm very consistent in my effort to adhere to a an ethic of reason and I am just as though on atheists as I am on theists when I see departures from reason. On a lighter note, despite the enduring popularity of toe sucking I have never tried it, who knows maybe there is something to it. Hey there is a first time for everything.

Let me put it this way....The lone survivor....It was not his time....and he had other things that he needed to do......<br />
<br />
And the ones that were taken....Well....just maybe he needed them in Heaven....To help him watch for those that need his help....<br />
<br />
I mean it is a big world.....and he can use all the help that he can get

MentalGent, <br />
<br />
I appreciate that you did not want to purposely offend WNEO. <br />
<br />
Atheists more than any other group I know have the reputation for being arrogant and rude. This perception is not entirely unwarranted. It has been my observation that hubris and arrogance are prominent traits among atheist circles. I don’t mean to make that stamen about you or the other folks on this discussion group whose comments I have enjoyed reading and have learned from – and I thank you all for that!<br />
<br />
Still, when feeling heady from over indulging in the advantages of having the weight of evidence in our favor, it would serve us all well, me included, to remember that the belittling of others only diminishes us.<br />
<br />
“Just because an atheist does not accept the belief system of the theist, does not mean that he is any less moral, or ethical, or humane.”<br />
<br />
I of course agree with you but could we challenge ourselves to more than just “any less” than theists? <br />
<br />
“A lot of people specifically visit the atheist group, and leave messages in atheist discussions, despite not being atheist, specifically to impress a non-atheist agenda upon us” <br />
<br />
This is true for both theists and atheists alike. It seems to me that we should welcome challenges and not surge out the trenches in full attack mode. <br />
<br />
“I personally find it a little distasteful to find them bringing that loss into their justification for unrelated beliefs.” <br />
<br />
I cannot think of a greater reason why people would want to seek solace in religion than the loss of a child. If we cannot offer, first compassion, then an alternate perspective, then our ideology is sorely lacking in its ability to address fundamental human needs. <br />
<br />
The usual reply by atheists to the charge of being arrogant and rude is some form of ‘they do it too’. <br />
<br />
There is no shortage of examples of how unreasonable, irrational, rude, threatening, and even violent theists can be towards our ideology. I am sure that we all have experience it in some form. And therein lies the rub, if we think that our ideology is superior then we should take the higher road – even if it requires greater discipline. Feeling maligned and justified in lashing out is easy – taking the higher road is harder but change is not easy. <br />
<br />
If each of us whishes to represent an alternative to very ideologies that have both plagued and defined our culture and traditions then we must do so from higher moral ground than those we criticize. <br />
<br />
- and yup that is quite task : )

My dear fellow atheist,<br />
<br />
As usual you made many good arguments as a response to WNEO’s post, so many that in fact I have saved many of them. I am glad that I can benefit from your combined efforts to construct well thought out arguments. <br />
<br />
However, I have to confess that I found many of your comments to be callus if not cruel given WNEO’s circumstance. I don’t mean to say that we should not challenge WNEO’s view, after all she chose to share her experience with us. But she did so politely and even offered her love. This was an act of kindness in her part that EVEN if you think was guided by irrational religious beliefs was still an act of kindness. I don’t think any of us is all the better for dismissing the kindness of others. <br />
<br />
I have a personal ethic of logic that I do my best to live by but just as importantly I also challenge myself to have greater empathy and compassion for people and all living things. This is not some new-age ideology – what could be more fundamental than compassion and empathy? <br />
<br />
Pointing out the irrationality of religion is like shooting fish in a barrel – you make it that abundantly clear time and time again in this discussion group. Maybe we could challenge ourselves to not only strive to see the world through reason but to ALSO be understanding, compassionate and empathetic especially towards those that we disagree with. <br />
<br />
We are no better than those that dismiss us and demean us for being atheist if we dismiss and demean them for being believers. <br />
<br />
If you believe that reason offers superior guidance than mysticism and religion then BE an example.

Your observations are most enlightening.

You say to be kind and empathetic. Let me give you a scenario, because I think you have a very fragile definition of kindness &amp; empathy. I work in the medical field and I see people EVERYDAY that are medically ignorant and don't realize what their lifestyle is doing. I am not talking about what it will do "eventually", as in years down the road. I mean patients that are right on the brink of choosing life &amp; death within the year. How much empathy &amp; kindness should I show? How would this kindness &amp; empathy be recognized? Is it kinder to hand-pat and continue making money off of this weak person? Should I shake them by the collar and get real honest about what's right around the corner? Our culture says be politically correct. Even at the risk of someone's death? Losing progress as a culture? Misery? Making someone mad? I mean where's your line for kindness &amp; empathy? Religion has a huge price tag as an individual and a society. Hey, they take your money just like most of the medical field does. You/people just don't know it in either case. It's a shame no one told you. I would rethink the ethics you're talking about.

You wont reunite with your child, she's dead. Her brain no longer receives oxygen and it stopped functioning. Everything that made your daughter your daughter ceased when that organ ceased. Do you wish to prove it? Just avail yourself of the studies going back over 100 years of the correlation between the brain, the mind and personality. No faith required.<br />
I say all this in the spirit of human to human contact, if you truly wish to share the burden of someone who needs a shoulder to cy on, that's magnificent, thank you. But please, don't take these same people on a trip down the rabbit hole, they need the comfort of living and non fictional people. You cant become, or should I say it would be wrong of you to present yourself as the mouth piece of the Easter Bunny or Mithra, jesus or Santa.<br />
Speak from what you know not what you guess. If you cant prove it stop trying to sell it.<br />
A good heart is a wonderful thing to possess, just remember, the heart has no memory or reasoning capacity, its a pump, rely on your mind, deal with your grief and help others if you can and do so with facts not fantasy's.

Weneedeachother, thank you taking the time write and share with us words that must have been difficult to write. The loss of a child is a pain so unbearable words cannot express the heartache. <br />
<br />
I would not be the one to deconstruct the reasoning for your faith. I understand that it was not born of out of calculated reasoning or prolonged deliberation on the paradox of miracles in a world subject to natural laws. Rather it was born out of great pain and the need to come to terms with the unfathomable. This does not make you wrong for it, after all faith is by definition outside of reason. There could be no other way of accepting the existence of a benevolent God when a child is taken from you unless you have faith that there will be an explanation that can resolve the loss of that child. <br />
<br />
Christians, believers of all faiths and non-believers we are all subject to calamities that can befall us all by indiscriminate chance. People have different ways of trying to come to terms with tragedies that may be guided my religious belief, reason or nothing at all. <br />
<br />
I can understand the role that religion and faith have in people’s lives but we must also acknowledge although religion may be a source of comfort and maybe even wisdom, religion and faith are not the tools for the advancement of knowledge or society. <br />
<br />
Take for example what you said about cancer, you are attributing cancer to anger with God. I have friends that do research on cancer and AIDS and have made significant contributions to our understanding of both. What if they and others researchers like them were to quit and simply say “if don’t want cancer then you need to come to terms with God.” It’s projected that cancer rates are going to increase by 40% in the next 20 years. What should we do? I don’t mean to sound harsh and analytical but these are the facts and if we think that God is behind things like cancer then why look for a cure?<br />
<br />
Since you were so generous in sharing you loss I will also share that after my ex-wife’s miscarriage she was angry with me for being “cruelly rational” about it. I thought about her words and I wrote her a note that to the best of recollection said:<br />
<br />
I see such beauty in Nature. All of its intricate connections that I try so hard to understand. At times I have glimpses of how it is all connected and in these brief moments I get a marvelous feeling of the oneness of it all. In my grief I cannot at times help but wonder if this oneness is guided by some logic. And if so, then from logic then there necessarily comes justice. Then what justice is there that we should not see our boy grow up? <br />
<br />
But, at last, not the greatest of hope nor the greatest of grief can change that Nature and the world is as we find it and not as we hope or dream it to be. And what a wondrous and fascinating world it is.<br />
<br />
I have a hope, a dream, that I know cannot be reconcile with logic, that there exist a greater justice and lovers that where meant to be shall be together again, fathers and mothers will see their children once more and we will know our boy. <br />
<br />
Weneedeachother, I shared that note to show you that in grief and pain we turn towards what we know to look for consolation. I tried to reason the existence of a universal justice that would allow me to not only be with my wife once more but to see the boy I never saw. But that is a dream that when bittersweet memories creep up I find solace in. Still, I separate my dreams and hopes from the world of the here and now because in my limited time on this planet I would like to make a difference through my work and the problems at hand require that I face the world as it is. <br />
<br />
I turned to logic and reason and found a measure of comfort by reflecting on Nature. You turned to God and found comfort in being told that the death of your child would be resolved later. We have one other thing in common – the world is still as it is. <br />
<br />
Again, I'm sorry about the loss of your girl. I hope that you are well.<br />
Miguel

I saw this story vebatim somewhere else. Either the poster is plagerising or someone else is :)

That is a great quote Trouble. I know a few people that can separate reason and religion and ultimately let reason prevail in matters outside of their spirituality, but such folks are few.

Welcome to the discusion Sicile. In my very biased opinion the best discussions on EP are right here : )<br />
<br />
You comments and those of MG remind me of my debates with the elderly nun that taught 'Religion and Ethics' at the strict boys school I attended as a kid. I drove this nice lady to exasperations with my polite arguments. She finally announced to the class that I was going to burn in hell and all those that listened to me would join me in eternal damnation. I told that I look forward to meeting other evil non-believers like Gandhi.

I just read most of these 65 comments - whew - fun discussions! I think I like it here. If I may, I would like to comment on some older comments regarding God's interaction with us mortals.<br />
<br />
I noticed early on in my Christian training that these circumstances always popped up and the reasons were ALWAYS the same. This has been influential on my belief that one of the main reasons for the existence of religion is to control the masses. <br />
<br />
Here it goes...<br />
If you are a Christian, and you are going to church, living right, and following the bible, and your life is going well, then God is rewarding you for your dedication and belief in him. Good job! However if these same conditions exist (life is good) but you are out of church, doubting, living a secular life and therefore backsliding, it is the Devil trying to make you content with your current situation and therefore keeping you from God. Tricky little bugger. <br />
<br />
Now on the filp side - say your life is full of turmoil and problems. Well, if you are at church every Sunday and you are working for God - witnessing to the "ignorant" - well then, your problems are the cause of the Devil. He is upset that you are working for his enemy. You see the Devil is trying to make you doubt and trying to pull you away from the church. But, if you are facing struggles in your life and you are away from the church - backsliding again - well, then it is God causing these problems in order get you to realize the error of your sinful ways and return to him where all will be peaceful again. (of course that is until the Devil see's he is loosing you and begins wreaking havoc on your life..) *author shakes head in disbelief*<br />
<br />
Wow. Who can argue with logic like that. Besides me I mean. :)

MentalGent,<br />
<br />
Regarding neurological evolution, certainly the capacity is there for further evolution of the brain. However, I don’t think humans are subject to the type of selective pressures that would lead to further neurological evolution. I’m sure that some geneticists would disagree with me but the only ‘modern’ examples that I am aware of human traits selection are related to the resistance of devastating diseases. <br />
Archi,<br />
I looked up reviews of the book and it seems very interesting. Unfortunately with my workload it’s going to be a little while before I have the opportunity to read anything outside of my field. <br />
Do share good tidbits from the book.<br />
<br />
I hope that I don't sound too much like I'm lecturing but since I teach it’s easy to fall back into mode without realizing it.

Archie, <br />
<br />
Sounds like you’re reading an interesting book. <br />
<br />
It is interesting that in our distant history, religion may have fulfilled the role of strengthening bonds among individuals within groups. It has been proposed that as group size increased, one-on-one bonding through direct contact (like grooming) became insufficient to maintain group cohesion. It is likely that religion became the mechanism that was needed to strengthen bonds among individuals within larger groups.<br />
<br />
But why religion? Well, actually it’s not that a distant leap from grooming to religion. The emotions, the neurological and the physiological experience of religion are closely associated with the (pleasurable) social bonding experiences, much like the grooming that our distance ancestors likely exchanged among them. <br />
<br />
Our early culture and brains evolved simultaneously. It was during the period when humans began living in larger groups and express culture that the brains of our ancestors increased to its current size. So you could say that we are biologically predisposed to experience religion.<br />
<br />
Unfortunately the traits that benefited small tribes of cave dwellers are now completely out context. The outpacing of our social over our biological evolution affects our everyday lives in ways most people are unaware and unwilling to consider. So next time you are insulted or threatened by some religious fanatic, just think of them as being more in touch in their cave dwelling ancestors.<br />
<br />
Humans are truly unique, we are the only species intelligent enough to know how stupid we are and too stupid to change.

It's great to hear that critical thinking is still thought in some high schools. <br />
<br />
My SO is a public high school teacher and she does not share that she's an atheist because it would affect her job. <br />
<br />
Archi, I loved your reply to Kindal. Whenever a point of view or argument is prefaced by ‘in my personal opinion’ I know whatever follows is likely not to stand up to the scrutiny of reason. <br />
<br />
I ended up getting a very nasty comment on my whiteboard from that lady and I had no idea what it was about until I checked the comments on this story. Funny thing is she fancies herself an intellectual.

When I was taking Religious Studies in high school, there was one thing that always stuck in my head. This being that if there is a God, He cannot be omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful) and omnibenevolent (all-loving) because if he knew of the suffering in the world, loved us all and was powerful enough to stop it, there would be no suffering.

Bravo, Bravo Archie

Kindal, you remind me of a child just reaching the age where it is having problems with the concept of Santa. How does he circle the earth in one night making millions of pit stops? How can the deer fly? Who delivers the mail to him?<br />
Yes Kindal, just when your about to admit to yourself that he is not real you say " but the cookies were eaten and the milk drank"

What I need explained to me by somebody out there who professes to be a good Christian is this: Why is it that in sport we continually see individuals raising their heads "heaven wards" making the sign of the cross in thanks for scoring a goal or try, (as if god had anything to do with it ) when the other poor bastards ( who are probably also Christians ) are on the losing end!! <br />
Does your god choose sides....shouldn't he be neutral?<br />
Guys...Come on!! If you weren't indoctrinated with religion literally from birth by your parents or force fed at school, and never introduced to any so called deity, you would only be exposed to the wonders of fact based, peer reviewed, scientific information about our evolutionary progress on this wonderful planet of ours. <br />
I am so grateful to people like Charles Darwin and since him the likes of Richard Dawkins who have opened up the minds of so many who questioned religious dogma but lacked the knowledge to argue: based on the increasing evidence which has been made available to us in easily understandable text, refuting so much of the superstitious ignorance written down over the centuries!

Hi, just found MtnMig's story today, so I thought I gave it my 2cents worth.. It is actually a question.<br />
<br />
I am a serious skeptic and an atheist (although I have doubts about the accuracy of the term), BUT, do you not see the human tragedy behind what we often call "clinging" to god?<br />
<br />
I think that too many times we fall into pointless debates, deepening that which divides us, and, we fail to take into account the background story of how a "believer" came to be.<br />
<br />
I think that for...us, those who choose a different path than the one of belief, are the ones that will eventually need to build and cross the bridge that separates believers and non-believers.<br />
<br />
Non-believers argue that if god was so great, why did he kills children?<br />
Believers can only answer that - as if they knew what such a god be thinking - god has his reasons.<br />
The debate goes on forever from that point on, but....What god?! We bypass the FACT that we have no proof either way and we dive into debates (today, because a not long ago we dove to killing each other). We also forget that the concept of god is man-made, and only AFTER that we face the predicament of proving it.<br />
<br />
It would all be fine and dandy if this division would not actually represent something much more profound, which is the conditioning of the human brain to function quite poorly.<br />
<br />
So I wonder, looking back at our human history, is it worth it? Is a concept worth so much destruction, so much division, such lack of understanding and respect for life?<br />
<br />
I think that religion is the worst thing that ever happened to humans, yet, as years passed, I began to see the bigger picture of a believer - a picture that shows loneliness, fear, surrender..<br />
<br />
Even the person that lives immersed in a feeling of divine grace will tremble at the thought of no pleasing his/her god.<br />
<br />
I learned a great deal from the Christian doctrine, as from many others. The essence of all, remains the human being trying to understand, to reach out, and to not be alone.<br />
<br />
We are much more powerful and have a lot more potential than that.<br />
<br />
Cheers,<br />
HB<br />
<br />
ps: I realize that this was more than A question... :)

Jeffrey - I'm afraid it's all the people praying in church that are offering nothing.<br />
<br />
Facts are facts. Bad things happen, will continue to happen, and there is not god anywhere that is going to intercede for you or anybody else. I offer you a solution:<br />
<br />
Take charge of your own destiny. Make things happen for your self. As long as you continue to count on supernatural solutions to the problems in your life, you will continue to be disappointed.

Skrael, you empathise with these poor deluded people and I commend you for that. I find it more difficult to render them much sympathy. The xtians who invade our groups are for the most part spiteful and ignorant. Their evidence and causality for their god is based upon anecdotal statements form those in extremis or quotes from the single source of the bible. The exultations of these believers is always let down by their smug assertions that when the end comes god will make it right, they will be looked after and us atheists will be punished. <br />
<br />
Clap trap of the highest order. Which one of their gods will return i wonder? Allah will punish the infidel and Christ will banish all the rest to Hell. Not to mention Shiva.

jeffrey,<br />
<br />
Your last comment almost sounded as if you were defining your own fears for your future. Added to an extract from your story in another forum where you said:-<br />
<br />
"...I do believe in God and yet nothing in my life is turning out good."<br />
<br />
it seems to me that you're not having a great time of it right now, and that God is all you have to cling to.<br />
<br />
Then you say (in this forum):-<br />
<br />
"In the end God will be back. He will make it all right! He said all this would happen and that the life to come with Him is better and that life will be pain free and He will take care of us who believe forever." <br />
<br />
and I note that this is all future tense, not present tense. So you are merely clinging to a hope of God, and perhaps your reason for being here is this:- you are a bit like a street gang member who wants to get to be a special friend with the leader and does so by singing his praises at every opportunity, and dissing the words and actions of those who dislike the leader. Yet the leader is still ignoring you.<br />
<br />
Maybe it is time to become leader of your own gang, invent one if need be, and take control of your life instead of hanging on to promises that don't seem to be happening for you right now.<br />
<br />
In genuine concern,<br />
<br />
Skrael

jeffrey,<br />
<br />
Since you ask, I work hard everyday to contribute to the preservation of species as a wildlife biologist and it is no thanks to the believers that God's people inherited this Earth for your use and destruction. While you pray with the self-elected pious bearers of morality I am hard at work to make one tiny bit of this planet better. <br />
<br />
You are right, after I'm dead no one will remember my name and that is fine it me but at least I worked my whole life towards making something better rather than convincing myself that by being religious I actually did.

Thanks, I'll look for that one.

Lrob,This story was told by the lady that was attacked , if I remember correctly, on Biography channel's 'I Survived' show. I don't recall which episode but they are available online "http://www.biography.com/isurvived/episode.jsp". In every single episode that I have watched some poor innocent person is brutally attacked and many if not most attribute their survival at least in part to God's intervention. I chose that particular story because it's the best example of what I was talking about. Check it out, the stories are very compelling.

So glad I am not the only one who sees this! Even when I was a "true believer" I found it arrogant and offensive when people would say things like this.<br />
<br />
Is the last story you relate a real world example, or a Reductio ad Absurdum ? If it actually happened like that, I need to get a copy of the original story (link to article) to share with my family.<br />
<br />
And thanks to all who share hear, living in the Bible Belt, I often feel like I am the only person alive that doesn't believe in supernatural gods and magic.

Some for food for thought<br />
<br />
Every time that religious and atheist debate a couple themes come up every time, <br />
‘don’t judge me’ or ‘I don’t speak for all Christians’.<br />
<br />
This usually comes up when a religious person makes a statement about their faith. The atheist replies by constructing a logical argument about the irrationally of that faith statement by pointing out inconsistencies. <br />
<br />
The religious person replies often with indignation for what they feel was an attack on a simple statement of their faith. This is when ‘don’t judge me’ or ‘I don’t speak for all Christians’ comes up.<br />
<br />
Sounds pretty familiar to most of you I presume.<br />
<br />
This happens because to the religious person they are expressing their faith but to the atheist this a statement of support for an ideology that has consequences that reach far beyond the lives of religious people.<br />
<br />
This point is undeniable. For example, during the Regan administration religious people successfully stifled AIDS research for years and thousands of people in this country and millions around the world whose lives might have been saved died because of it.<br />
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So I would ask religious people to consider what their support of religion and religious institutions has on society and the world.

Dark Ember,<br />
<br />
How many people a top the twin towers do you think pleaded with God for their lives as the flames came ever closer. In fact, people were seen on their knees praying just shortly before jumping off to their deaths. Heart breaking and sad. Buy hey, had they started pleading for their lives earlier God would have saved then, righ?

i find all of you who took offense at what I said to be very narrow minded. If you really look at what i said you will notice that I said that this is how i feel. I was not trying to change anyone's mind. Or even trying to tell how they should feel. I know that everyone sees things differently. I just hope that one day people will be able to discuss those differences without trying to shove their philosophies down someone else's throat. Yes. atheist's are just as guilty as christians.

I find it somewhat unfortunate that those of faith feel they have to trundle into a forum of non-faith and steer the threads away from the intention of the original author. <br />
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Guys - all this does is make us more sure that we made the right choice, you will not change anyone's viewpoint here. Maybe time to lock this thread?

did she ask for gods help before he bashed her in the head? no cuz she was a athiest like u who didnt believe in god untill she realized everything she was going to lose. the reason those people exclaimed god saved me! is because when they asked he did. <br />
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when your about to die you will call to someone, but i doubt who u will call to will save u like god did to those people.

Kolaow:<br />
<br />
Whisper the fiery wrath of hell, <br />
And then speak of love sublime. <br />
And how long would it take to tell <br />
How those two things can combine?<br />
<br />
Tell me my thought, my will is free <br />
And then say I must obey. <br />
Explain about eternity, <br />
Which I must choose day by day.<br />
<br />
The reasoning behind your speech <br />
Is what I am questioning. <br />
I don't deny the faith you preach, <br />
Only the truth of the thing.<br />
<br />
Faith is something I cannot share <br />
Although I know I have tried. <br />
But so long as logic is there, <br />
Anything else would be a lie.

I just wanted to say that I thoroughly enjoyed this post and reading everyone's comments on it. I'm currently agnostic and I love religious discussions and debates. This kinda made my day...in a weird kind of way.

Some religious people thank God when good things happen but keep quiet when bad things happen. I believe it is because they are very afraid of God because of his power, so its safer to praise rather than blame him.

Understandable. They are afraid of criticizing the psycho living in the sky.

That was a BAD BAD BAD BAD comment !!!<br />
Kolaow ..not just the 9/11 building what about the young children on a plane are u mad?

Yes I am serious

Kolaow,<br />
<br />
Before I reply to your comment I first have to ask if you are serious?

Kolaow,<br />
<br />
Before I reply to your comment I first have to ask if you are serious?

I know you may not like this comment, but it is my belief that sometimes when something bad happens to a person it is not because that person has done anything wrong. Sometimes it is to open the eyes of the people around them. I believe some people who die in tragic events like 9/11 were taken by God show the rest of the world that we are doing something wrong that we need to become better people. I also think that some of those people were taken because God loved them and wanted them with Him.

I'll be sure not to go hang gliding between 3:54 and 4:12. Thanks for the inside info.

I'll be sure not to go hang gliding between 3:54 and 4:12. Thanks for the inside info.

LMFAO, nice call....was this between 3:54 and 4:12 though ? Because he told me in a vision that that time was his lunch break and his protection did not resume until 4:13....

God should have an outgoing message when he is away..."please contunie to hold, your prayers are important to God, he will be with you as soon as possible, thank you"