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Let Me Set Things Straight Why Humans Are Not Angels

The first beings God created were the angels. Angels are heavenly beings who are pure spirit, intellect, and will but who have no physical body as we do. Each angel is created independently by God, with its own intelligence, knowledge, and free will. However, since each angel is a totally separate creation from every other angel, they are not related in any way and have no way to reproduce themselves.Angels are spirits and are not reincarnated.

Angels cannot create. . . Jesus did not become an angel, Jesus became man and was born of the Virgin Mary. To say when we die, we become angels is a step down for us. This is why Lucifer rebelled against God, because Jesus did not become and angel (like Lucifer), Jesus became a human being and Lucifer could not stand playing second fiddle to human beings. That is why satan hates us. Lucifer was a seraphim, the highest of all the angels and the ones closest to God. But Lucifer rebelled against God because Jesus became a lowly human rather than an angel. Lucifer was one of the highest of angels but refused to worship the human Body of Christ. At that point, Lucifer, which means “light bearer” became “satan” which is the Hebrew word for “the accuser.” For because of Jesus' life, death, resurrection AND ascension, we are called to share in the very life of God. Our human nature sits at the right hand of the Father. This is something that the angels do not share and the devil just could not deal with that. The Archangel Michael, whose name means, “Who is like God?”, even though a lowly Archangel compared to the exalted seraphim, fought satan and cast him out of heaven. As human beings, we are allowed to share in God’s creative power. God has given us a body so that unlike the angels, we can cooperate in God’s creative power.

Angels are spiritual beings,simultaneously yet individually created, who don't have physical relationships and can't form families. They were not created to develop skills or talents or to have dominion over the world. They can't progress from a lower level to a higher level. A human being has a body and a soul; he is born, grows up and dies; angels do not go through the same process. They were complete at their creation. They always remain the same.

Angels are without bodies and hence invisible. Unlike God they are not omnipresent. Yet they seem to be able to be present in more than one place at the same time. They are not restricted or bound by time or space. Although they are pure spirits, they can take on human form whenever it is necessary in the history of salvation. But they often appear to man also in different forms.

Two angels came to Lot in the form of men to tell him to get out of Sodom. (Gen. 19) On the day of resurrection the women who went to the tomb saw two men "in clothes that gleamed like lightening" (Luke 24:4) Matthew records that an angel rolled back the stone and sat on it. "His appearance was like lightening, and h is clothes were white as snow " (Mat. 28:2).Angels are endowed with great intelligence (2 Sam. 14:20). They were given perfect intelligence at their creation.

Since they are in the presence of God they have a far clearer view of and a deeper insight into the meaning of all what happens in our world than we do. Our knowledge is always limited, even in our age of computers, internet and amazing technological advances. But angels do not have an autonomous activity alongside God; they function and intervene in the world only as God commands.Their amazing knowledge and power, like that of all creatures, are dependent and derived.They are capable of great feats of strength,whether it is in slaying over 180. 000 men in an evening, or setting an apostle free from prison (2 Kings 19:35; Acts 12).

I know this will shake many people but most of what you have heard about angels is new age philosphy and is false. I am just stating the cold hard facts if you dont like it tough.
Kohen Kohen 31-35, M 134 Responses Nov 5, 2010

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Imo those who cannot face the light shining on their sins and darkness are not angels....only demonic like people preaching the doctrine of denial and how to deny everything is heaven...... hence they deny the existence of crime.....and deception..........why? They are only here to contribute to the confusion all the more....they are not here to really work on themselves or help anybody....all they can do is flag stories and talk shitttt....they hate anything that makes sense because to them the more the nonsense the more the merrier going deeper down the hole of denial..pathetic.

Everyone is full of shixt in this group, take everything with a grain of salt.

I should have listened to you years ago. I am sorry. Thank you for trying to help me!

I enjoyed your THEORY and the story ... parts I agree with ; parts I don't .... however it was very interesting ....
There is NO way that you can call what you write as FACT unless your were there and you weren't ... so all you have is theory .... still makes for a somewhat interesting story ...

Angels, as a species, are certainly spirits. There are people here, on this earth, that are human-angels, as in they were angels in past lives. It is stated in the Bible that angels can take on human forms, so by your logic it is possible. Granted, incarnated angels are essentially human, but that is the whole point.

Also, in my experience, angels can have 'physical' relationships (basically a physical relationship on the spiritual plane, like with energy exchanges and the like). You are correct in saying that they do not form families though.

Having worked with the arch angelic realm for quite a long time, I must say I am in agreement with Kohen on many points. Barring any Biblical references, I can say from direct experience that the AA's can and do have very human qualities at times which do not match the frilly representations of popular authors etc. Remember that angel means messenger; it is a _ title_. It does not imply 'better than' or 'above' humans.
AA's are both lovely and terrible at times and they will work with you based on your belief system, so be careful about what you believe.

I personally feel that what we call 'earth angels' are those with a particular purity of being that we liken to being 'angelic.' Re: the book of Enoch, perhaps earth angels are descendants of the watchers. One should be careful not to imply negative connotation re: descendants of any one or any thing. If so-called earth angels descended from the watchers as offspring they are innocent and their being should remain free from the labeling of religious zealots. Anyone recall the Inquisition?

Nite mist, we don't tell children that it was 'probably a demon or something'...where is kindness, nite mist?

There is certainly truth in religious writings, but you also have to see that in the Bible it does talk about angels reincarnating or taking on human forms. There are several verses about angels appearing in human form, like to battle Jacob (I believe that is it)--so, if the Bible is 100% accurate, then angels can take on human forms. There is nothing to say that angels cannot reincarnate in human forms for a brief period. Incarnated angels do exist.

Blessing,
Anna

I think that there is alot of truth to the old religious writings like the bible but the minute it was rewritten it was changed to account for the times and the writers sense of the world and how it should be and perhaps what the writer thought the author really meant. The changes make it that bit more difficult to gleam the real meanings but they are there.

Ahem. You poor dear souls arguing over religion and religious texts so on and so forth and about the existence of angelic beings stop being so nonsensical. First and foremost I shall be the logical voice of reason here as an ordained interfaith minister and remind you that all religious texts are rather sadly misinterpreted and overtly rewritten variants of man. They were originally word of mouth long before even being written down. Once they were written down the stories had changed so many times by the ones telling them generation after generation that by the time they were written down inconsistencies already existed. Furthermore, when the writers began writing them down if they did not have all the information they needed, they did a little literary device know as ad lib to fill in the blanks to make sense of the "gaps" in the stories they could not make sense of otherwise. This worsened still after the scrolls were found faded, torn, so on and so forth. So we got more additions. This is why there are so many inconsistencies and contradictions in many of the religious texts. Then you get to the middle ages where they try to interpret the Hebrew and the Greek and Aramaic and do a rather poor job at it. Not to mention they omit books and phrases that they do not think fit the times. These are the Judeo-Christian Bibles. The Torah and the Q'uran were very much the same. Also, if you further delve into the matter you will find out that there are hints of ancient Roman, Egyptian and other so called paganistic religions blended and merged into the other religious texts and even into the ceremonies practiced by certain religions of today. Oh like Easter...Christmas. I could go on and on, but I won't. What I do know, is that there are some consistencies across the board in regards to both angelic beings and darker beings across almost all religious ideologies. I also know that angels have been described in the various texts over time as taking various forms. Also Kohen since you are so bent on following the Christian texts then you would know that indeed they can reproduce if they take human form because if you look in the book of Enoch and in the book of Jubilees it talks about how the Nephilim came about where the Watcher angels mated with human females. However, this was rather a condemnation and very much a no no in the laws governing interactions between angels and human kind. All across history though you hear of stories of angelic encounters. Same is true for the opposite and demonic encounters. Such is how the Universe works. There must be a balance of light and dark. The two have always co-existed. So stop the silly and petty arguing over religious texts, simply open your mind to the possibilities ba<x>sed on the knowledge of history and data over time. People have encounters with the unexplained therefore do not discount them with the closed mind of one sided religious thinkings. Indeed if you were truly following the teachings of Christ, you would be more open and accepting, loving and caring regardless, and realize that you do not need to attend a church, pay tithes, confess to a priest, condemn and judge, would not need books and religious texts so on and so forth to be closer to your Creator. That is what Jesus tried to teach everyone during his time. Basically it did not matter who you were, what your background was, what you believed, you could still be close to the Creator. That is all I have to say on this matter.

Yes, Jesus touched us with love and love of our creator. The man of peace.

Dear SmilingTurtle, thank you so much for writing down these words. I honestly appreciate that there are still people out there able to stand back a few steps and SEE a much bigger picture! I thank you kindly.
I wish you all the best.

Thank you for your response here 'smiling turtle'. I think it is sad to see people arguing over religions and basing their arguments on what the Bible says or does not say, instead of 'looking into the times around what was written and 'why' as someone who has experienced death and then came back, I no longer follow any religion but I do follow in the ways of kindness to all.

I am 13 years old and you probably think I'm just a kid making something up when I say I am an angel. This is true. I really don't think its fair with you going around saying I'm not real. Its like walking up to a brunette and saying "Your hair is not brown". Its who I am. God told me that this was me. I actually cried when I read your story. I honestly can't believe you would say this on an advice website, when I'm trying to figure out who other earth angels are. All I want you to know is I am kind of upset that this is how the world views me. );

angels are messengers of god.. god will not present himself directly but through angels.. and it was probably a demon or satan himself who told you... I've witness.. terrible things of what they can do..

I've never actually thought of Satan as a bad creature. He is independent and does not always follow God's will, but the only violence he purposely commits is under God's orders (think of the Book of Job).

let me set you strait now.
1: God only created angels in Christian mythology. There are other religions, learn them, cherish them, accept them.
2: your only shaking people who already agreed with you. your point is moot and invalidated by 1.

your arguing from your beliefs standpoint, since angels and their likings exist in multiple beliefs (though not in name, they usually tend to only be similiar, very rarely do the names match)
Not everyone is Christian, and not everyone believes in your god named God.

christians do not have a named god.. there is only one god.. though angels, i know alot about... and many religions have it backwards and wrong. I have spoken to many angels, though they dislike this arguement of this subject, and i hope truth will come soon for it will soon be our turning point..

I apologize for this late comment, I have not been on in forever.
I never said they had a named god...I just said his name was God, if that makes any sense XD
Backwards and wrong? The same could be said from alternative perspectives in relation to Christianity...that comment has no backing...
Not sure what you mean by "our turning point"

also out of respect for Christianity, please use the term God, not god when refering to him. When refering to a god in general it is okay to use lowercase.

sorry.. I type a bit too fast, and I read just as fast so I may skip some words.. I will leave people be to there own destruction, for now. until I am needed I won't argue, because it's pointless argument.as for "our turning point" what I meant be that was there will be a time in the future where there will be major changes, though I do not know what yet. And I don't guarantee it'll happen in my lifetime or yours. I just hope some day soon truth will come to the hearts and minds of all.

No worries, I do the same. Just a pet peave of mine when it comes to titles and names and such, I don't like to be disrespectful to others and their beliefs and so I don't see why anyone else should be any less respectful, by mistake or not. I expect people to correct me in the same way I correct anyone else.
It's not a pointless argument, really there is no such thing. There is no reason not to share your opinions and beliefs, Buddha teaches us the best way to understand eachother is for everyone to explain themselves, and in Christianity the Christian god is roughly the same way. That is why many Christians are Christian in religion and Buddhist in spirit. It's the nice thing about Buddhism not being a religion, anyone can follow it without doubts or worries about casting down their old ways :)
Believe it or not major changes happen everyday. Peoples minds and hearts explode with new knowledge and truths all the time. Certainly not everyone at once, and certainly not all the time for each person, but with so many people in the world, "Truth" and "major changes" are things that are going on all the time. Life is a wonderful thing that is constantly growing and changing. Will there be an ultimate end? Without a doubt, it would be illogical otherwise, everything ends eventually. Will it be major? Anything that has ever ended, did so in a drastic way. Is it major? A person with opened eyes sees everything as major, so of course.
In all beliefs there is some sort of ultimatum styled ending. Religious or not it would be foolish to think otherwise. I myself am Irreligious (Not to be confused with an Atheist, as some religions are Atheistic), but Buddha teaches us to actively search for intellect and wisdom, both of which bring about logic. Logic dictates that there will be an end, though because we don't see the future, we can't see the end. We don't need to see the end, we don't need to know, and we shouldn't worry about how it affects ourselves and OTHERS.

The reason why I said it's a pointless argument.. is because everyone is strongly in their own opinion, though I understand there views of things. And yes I know major things happen alot, but what I'm hoping the change is, is that we all realize that we need to help this world(not being like a tree hugger, though I love nature) this world is kinda the only one we got, unless we wanna live out in space where our bones will shrink(haha I'm so off topic here) but yes I know a lot about Buddha, my brother used to be into it now he's into Muslim, sorry if my whole topic is sloppy kinda (my energy is drained for the day). But instead of an end, I think it's going to be a beginning, well everyday is a beginning, but an ultimate beginning. And it might be possible for there to be teacher's who arent exactly 'angel' 'reincarnations' but those who are here to teach and bring about the new beginning. So I'll leave it at this for now and until later.

I love your example of being a tree hugger, it sounds like something I would say. For example I strongly appose animal rights activists, but I love animals, and even have my own farm.
(I disagree, Our bones would only shrink under certain conditions, which can be avoided...but like you said...off topic XD)
That's strange that he quit being Buddhist to change religions...Buddhism being a spiritual path, not a religion, but to each their own.
Your topic is easy for me to follow because it is not much different than my own way of typing.

The whole help the world thing is an especially large discussion, one which is very complicated. It's one of those things that can only change gradually, otherwise catastrophic things could happen, and it wouldn't matter if we saved the world if we can't even save ourselves. Unfortunantly because life is life, in order for us to have realized we needed to better maintain the safety of the planet, we first had to find out how we hurt it and we had to learn how to hurt it before we could learn of the methods that would not have hurt it. As is I can completely understand why we would leave the topic be.
However before we do so, your major thing has already happened :) it just takes time and must gradually build. The end you are wanting is going to be very anti-climactic.

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This is all nonsense. But understandable from a human being with a closed mind and a bible close by.

its definatly not nonsense.. they shone me everything. "you are all young and not yet ready too understand what is truth, but the time will come again when it will be revealed" from my gaurdian angel sent from the counsel of angels.. i guessu can call it a counsel lol

To start, there was one. One became two, god and the other. They each divided into five parts. And each of those parts divided into two, and so on after that.

What do you mean by God divided into 5 parts ?maybe i am misunderstanding you but i am only aware of the trinity.The Bible teaches there is only one God.Without the need of going into detail, there are three unique persons referred to as God in scripture Father, Son, and Spirit.

To understand this think of water,water can exist in three states liquid, solid, or gas, yet remains the same.

That is the bible.

That is what i am using, and i have stated that.

God was divided into five parts, they are his highest ranking angels.

I meant, that what you said in your last comment is the bible. Not the truth.

What I mean to say is that angels do reproduce, just not in the same way as humans and that an angels spirit is capable of inhabiting a human body. :)

That is an impossibility because the angels were created by God.

Yes the fallen angels can inhabit human bodies, in order to try destroy them what is widely known as possession.The holy Good angels would have no reason for possessing a human being and forcing them to do something against their will.

Yes, the angels are part of god. The angels are not in "possession" of they literally have been reincarnated into human bodies.

That is where you are wrong angels cannot reincarnate into human beings.They are pure spirit and were complete at their creation, they do not reincarnate. Angels are beings created by God (Colossians 1:15-17) and are entirely different from humans. They are God’s special agents to carry out his plan and to minister to the followers of Christ (Hebrews 1:13-14).

I am not wrong. The fallen angels disobeyed god and turned to the other side.Being sent to earth was the punishment, as well as living the life of a human.

You are right that angels came from god and all were supposed to be his pawns, yes.

The fallen angels were spirit to begin with.So they cannot live life as a human being.At their creation they were complete and therefore still retain their spirit form.

A body is a capsule for a spirit.

Yes but they are pure spirit ,they don't have bodies like ours.They don't grow old or die.

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Im sorry to say Kohen, but i am in the state of mind now to were i think nothing is impossible, and who is to say all these so called facts about Angels? The word Fact itself has been proven over and over again through out history to be false, wrong, and well not real. Facts are often lies made up by people who dont want the masses to see the truth. If we allow ourselves to live on this earth believing only things that are considered facts, we will never progress as beings. Believing in facts is merely just a way of limiting your mind. Bless

I go by what the bible states.This new age Movement is very deceptive and has led many people astray 2fatal.That is why i must clear things ,so those who consider themselves Christians(followers of Christ ) are not deceived by it.

That's understandable, but i strongly believe it is not our place to try to prove what is real and what is not. I believe no one truely has the right to try to tell someone what they believe in is wrong. I dont do that. i have love for everyone. I wont sit and argue with a Buddhist cause they dont believe what i believe. I have alot of love an respect for those people. they live very pure lifestyles, well the ones who truely follow it. Just let things happen. let people believe what they want. Its not our jobs to try to prove to them other wise. Hope this helps on your path.

Well i am arguing from a christian point of view nothing else.I cannot sit back when i can clearly see people being mislead by twisted and false doctrine.To do this would be to fail as my duty as a christian.

But still there is a mountain of evidence that the bible and torah really are God's word such as in archaeology, forensics, Out of body experiences, near death experiences, visions and miracles such as the red sea parting and words appearing on the 2 tablets. There is an entire mountain of evidence that the bible and torah really are God's word and you cant just ignore the evidence, maybe you ignore the evidence because its so strong and proves the new age movement is wrong. If I'm asked to receive the mark of the beast on my forehead I will reject it. Leonidas I who fought at the battle of thermopylae in ancient times was also given a chance to surrender and have peace and stuff by Xerxes but he was brave and rejected and would rather die instead. Xerxes' empire was like the new age movement.

In Iran the punishment for drugs is death penalty and yet Iran is highly developed and has no immorality in their generation at all but in my generation all people are in a separate category and when people grow up because of people like you there will be chaos and anarchy. All forms of Satanism(Self worship) need to be banned. As soon as the bible is taken away people start tearing teach other to pieces and it's already happening.

And plus I was just giving an example of what my reaction would be above stupid fascist, attacking all people outside of your category, cause I am sick of this category stuff and rebel against it.

Oh what's the matter? This is a free country, got a problem with freedom of speech?

I was referring to the technology and military power and all people under 1 banner and no categories.

Just watch some documentaries on TV or on youtube or read the book called Stranger Than Science.

Oh and weird how the cold war and Stalin's atheist extremism is neve or harslyr taught in schools.

Just cause I am bad at using symbolism doesnt mean I am something else.

More evidence is that true Christians are extremely rarely affected by immorality and are the most well behaved, immune to immorality and never take drugs, this can be seen at schools.

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There is an entire mountain of evidence that the bible and torah really are God/Yahweh's word and snowcrystal is either possessed by thousands of demons or her brain has problems and needs a transplant or something.

If you are quick to sound accusing than the rest of what you say will be questioned regardless of the truth. We are called to stand upright and to ensure our tongues are not loose so that slander will not be cast at the Lord because of our own lack of grace in our speech. I would advise you to be careful in how you word things because, speech that sounds spiteful or can be interpreted as such will be rejected. It is godly to speak the truth about demonic influence, but not to throw direct accusation at people when you do not know. If you want to dispute what someone says do not target them, but speak truth and the truth will stand for itself. We do not fight against people, but principalities, concepts, lies, and unhealth. Do not be hasty to say that someone is possessed, and even if someone is mislead it does not mean their intentions are bad. The enemy always trojans lies with partial truth, and when one is deceived they do not realize it. We speak from personal experience and live by example. One who attempts to stand for God but pushes others away from them is doing worse than good. Is energy work and the concept of angel incarnation of demonic influence? Yes. I know because of personal experience. But those being deceived or who have not experienced it will not listen to you if your words are not right and sound, and if they perceive you as an aggressor. It does not mean stand down, but speak with dignity. The very reason it took me so long to come to Christ was because I saw hypocrisy and aggression in unsteady/ loose tongued preachers, so I keep that in mind.

P.S We must tear apart this NAM.

Be careful everyone, snowcrystal is possessed by many demons or has been driven insane by them. Snowcrystal the bible and torah are the word of God/Yahweh because he wrote on the ten commandments, this can be proven by OBEs, NDEs, Yahweh parted the ocean and led the israelites across drowning their persuers and the body of the dead pharoah is preserved by God's power without mummification as a reminder to us that the Torah and holy books are his word. This New Age Christianity of snowcrystal's is very dangerous and can open you up to demonic possession. SnowCrystal go talk to an ORTHODOX Rabbi and not a new age one.

I agree with jimditty snow is perfectly rational you are going wayyyyyyyyyyyyy toooooooo far in your crusade, beware...

be tolerant... you are casting stones everywhere, one might fall one your head

Well Hashem/Yahweh forbids psychics and mediums and him parting the red sea with forensic evidence such as the pharoah who drowned in the red sea in his failed pursuit's body did not decompose and instead his body was recovered and it was automaticly preserved by the power of Hashem/Yahweh/God as a reminder. Try reading the torah or speaking to an orthodox rabbi.

I read something up there about what is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit. Wasn't that Christ talking to Nicodemus about the need to be baptized to be born again of water and spirit? I think it's John 3:3-7...in reading that baptism is more than just getting wet or am I wrong?

In the bible "flesh" refers to our natural mind, and it has been passed on to us through adam's disobedience. It is the mind we are born with. It is always opposed to the Spirit, and under its rule we cannot do the things that we please. 1 John 2:16 John refers to this mind when he talks about "the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life." This lusting originates in our natural mind , the mind that is influenced by our emotions, will etc.

Well I terribly disagree. I believe the spirits of angels are the the same spirits that are put into human beings. All human beings. I believe some remain in Heaven while others are down here dying mortal deaths. Well not death, the soul or spirit doesn't die. Besides The Earth is just another place in Heaven, I'm standing here right now. I haven't left Heaven, nor will I die. It's just an experience. There are no superior beings. I disagree with all the stuff said about angels. I don't believe in demons either. Death is only a bodily death and I wasn't born in this body. I was created in Heaven.

I explained why it is not possible for a human to be an angel on the first page.A human being has a body and a soul he is born, grows up and dies angels do not go through the same process. They were complete at their creation. They always remain the same.

I believe that there are many beautiful angels here on this planet. I also believe that they are no more important than the other beings on this planet. God loves all of us :)

Please forgive me for not reading through all the comments, but I think quantum physics does a pretty darn good job of explaining the nature of the Universe and all its dimensions, and I can apply this knowledge to the subject matter being discussed in the above story.<br />
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1.) All matter is energy.<br />
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2.) All energy has a wavelength (vibration).<br />
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3.) Vibration can only exist in time.<br />
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4.) Everything is energy, therefore everything is a vibration.<br />
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5.) Time is a function of consciousness (perception, observation). If you don't believe me, start taking note of how you feel and how fast your mind moves, and look at a clock every once in awhile. You'll notice different emotional and mental states have an effect on the way that time "flows."<br />
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6.) We have more than one body. Most people are not sensitive enough to observe the workings of their other bodies because they are not physical. These bodies include the chi (qi) body, the emotional body, the astral body, the etheric body, and the causal body, among others. There are plenty of methods for developing your sensitivity. Pick the one that suits you best.<br />
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7.) All energy and all matter are affected by observation alone. Proof of this can be found in the famous double-slit experiment. Look it up and you will see what I mean. The word "observation" can be taken to mean the interaction between two bodies of matter (whether physical or spiritual, as any witness to ghost activity will tell you).<br />
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a.) A shift in perspective/viewpoint can change your entire life.<br />
<br />
b.) The Universe responds to thought. A belief is a thought you keep thinking over and over.<br />
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c.) See for yourself. Make your own observations. Your perception will be limited by your thoughts and beliefs. The quieter your mind is, the more you will be able to see/observe.<br />
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d.) No knowledge is absolute.

GOD is absolute truth.

"God" is a word, and that word means something different to everybody. What that word tries (and fails) to refer to is absolute truth (and much, much more).

God is not a a mere wprd, he is a reality."Ehieh Asher Ehieh".

That was exactly my point, hence the quotation marks around the word "God." Trying to define God makes about as much sense as dividing by 0. What the word "God" tries (and fails) to refer to is absolute truth (and much, much more).

Creation is arbitrary and knowledge and understanding are relative to experience. The closest I can get to describing God is to say that if God were a number, then God would be the number 0. 0 is the perfect number, because by its nature it is contained in every other number. It is neither positive nor negative. It cannot be divided. If it multiplies, the answer is itself. If it's added or subtracted, the sum/difference is always the number it is added to or subtracted from. The number 0 is profoundly unique.

Correct We cannot comprehend God.

Ecclesiastes 8:17 “..However much man may toil in seeking, he will not find it out. Even though a wise man claims to know, he cannot find it out.”

Instead we need to trust that despite what our eyes see, he does have our best interest in mind.

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I may be a bit late in saying this, but your entire work becomes broken at a single point. And I quote, "Angels cannot create. . . Jesus did not become an angel, Jesus became man and was born of the Virgin Mary. To say when we die, we become angels is a step down for us. This is why Lucifer rebelled against God, because Jesus did not become and angel (like Lucifer), Jesus became a human being and Lucifer could not stand playing second fiddle to human beings. That is why satan hates us. Lucifer was a seraphim, the highest of all the angels and the ones closest to God. But Lucifer rebelled against God because Jesus became a lowly human rather than an angel. Lucifer was one of the highest of angels but refused to worship the human Body of Christ." Where was your Biblical study when you wrote this? You use so many Bible quotes to attempt at the solidification of a crumbling edifice. What was the reason that the Son had come to Earth as a human? Because Lucifer had already fallen far before then in the Garden of Eden. He had instilled sin in humanity far before Christ was born human. Sir, you need to study the very basics of your subject before writing entire essays on something you believe you believe to be an expert on. Your argument has become null because of your idiocy. You also stated that Michael was merely an archangel. Do your research. Michael was both an archangel and a seraphim. I refused to continue reading at the point which I read this fallacy of both literature and Biblical content. By the way, I'm a sixteen year-old boy. I am also a seraph-incarnate, and I refuse to let someone persuade me to think that a prophet lied to me. I would be glad to get into existential debate with you, as well.

Christ preexisted before creation ,that is where you are mistaken lets start from there,
Luke 10:18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as A MAN. You see from this we clearly know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god. John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, Or the Only Begotten who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. I think you get the picture. You also seem to not understand the fundamental reason why Jesus became man and came into this world.The holy God cannot let sin go unpunished. To bear our own sins would be to suffer God’s judgment.He kept His promise to send and sacrifice the perfect Lamb to bear the sins of those who trust in Him. Jesus had to die because He is the only one who can pay the penalty for our sins. As to your question about Lucifer the bible states 1 John 3:8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. The main reason why Satan fell was because of pride because he wanted to be like God.I also explained that earlier. The rest was an assumption and my own thoughts not the bibles, i thought you would have been able to tell but , the fault was mine i should have stated it. The Archangel Michael is lowly in relation to Christ ,make no mistake Christ is higher than the angels. The only fallacy i see is you clearly calling yourself a seraph-incarnate.

Kohen:<br />
<br />
Ok, I have been reading some of these rather degrading comments of yours.... it is now my time to speak:<br />
<br />
Woe unto you, oh person who is blinded by books and only sees what the men in black teacheth you.<br />
<br />
I pray for you, my friend.... that you will open your heart to the Lord.... and that you will understand love... instead of chastizing those that do not believe what you do.<br />
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I am by no means perfect, but I must say.... I am shedding tears for you. And I will pray for you. It is people like you that makes me cry, and pray to the Lord for your deliverance. People are too blinded by what OTHERS tell them, and are too set on the words of the Bible and their interpretation of it. They believe they KNOW the "Truth of the Lord our God..." but NO ONE BUT GOD HIMSELF knows the Truth. You are too blinded by what is written in books... and what MAN, and not God, has written. Man wrote the Bible... It was not even God or even Jesus who wrote the bible, but man's INTERPRETATION of Jesus' life, his teachings, etc. that constitute the Bible. And mind you, as others have already said there were a LOT of sc<x>riptures of still MAN'S interpretation that were NOT included.... so how can people continue to claim it as THE WORD OF GOD?? When it was not even written by God.<br />
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It would be like me writing a book on my interpretation about God and Jesus' teachings, and saying "It is the word of God!!!" I would be deemed a lunatic, and probably thrown into an insane asylumn, or in olden times deemed a witch and burned at the stake. The same concept can be said for the Bible. It is a BOOK to TEACH us about the life of Jesus Christ, his teachings, etc. But it does not necessarily mean it is the word of the Lord.<br />
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I, for one, do not use the Bible to dictate my beliefs or my life. Am I perfect? NO. I know I make mistakes, or other more "Christian" people may see it as "sin." But, tell me then Kohan, how am I able to perform exorcisms, if I am defied by God for what I believe?? How was I able to save my friends who were demon-inflicted if I am against God and according to you, am damned to Hell?<br />
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I do not think I am a reincarnated Angel. I just so happen to come across this forum and found it interesting. I also started reading your posts... and my friend... I hope that one day you will open up your heart and see what everyone else can clearly see with your own eyes. No one can know the complete Truth... but I DO hope that one day you will learn to love ALL as Jesus did... learn to accept others for their differences, forgiveness and undertanding... as JESUS HIMSELF did... he was an example to us all.. of unconditional love and understanding.<br />
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Yet instead of grasping that and learning acceptance and unconditional love, here you are sending others to damnation for THEIR beliefs, and for others who HAVE learned unconditional love and acceptance of ALL. That itself is PLAYING GOD, and if I am correct, is the worst sin possible. Jesus gave unconditional love for all: he did not chastize people who were against his beliefs, or who lived a life of prostitution... instead he understood them, cried for them... and loved them still and looked at them softly with forgiveness and understanding. Yet here you are saying it goes AGAINST his word or teachings?? Tell me, then, who the real hypocrite is?<br />
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Are ye in that case, not much different from the "men in black" who delude others from the Truth and misinterpret the words of Jesus or God? And PLAYING GOD by saying you know HIS WORD when it is only GOD HIMSELF who knows the TRUTH. My fellow friend, in my eyes you are too blinded what MAN has told you.... I DO pray and hope one day you will see what we see... and open your heart to love and understanding.<br />
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I am by no means chastizing what you believe. I understand... I UNDERSTAND that people want to believe what people from the "Church" tell them to be the Truth, I understand people are blinded by this (not JUST you, MANY are), and I forgive you and understand you for it.... I see you as a Brother. We are ALL "Children of God," and all of us were created in HIS image. But I DO think you need to learn acceptance, my young friend. If not, then at least leave these poor people on here in peace if you refuse to accept, and be on your merry way. Stop flaming and "casting others unto Hell," for you have NO RIGHT or place to do that. Only GOD, our Lord and savior, can cast others unto Hell and deem who is going to Heaven or Hell.<br />
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I will continue to pray for you. May you have a blessed day and I hope one day you will no longer be blinded and see more than just an open book tells you....

How am i misinterpreting the words of God?i am clearly stating that a Human being cannot be an angel.The bible clearly states it and i have backed up everything apart from parts that are my own thoughts on the matter where i do not reference scripture.

I don't condemn you , your own heart does.Im just stating what the word of God says then it is up to you to decide.

the Bible is a Divine revelation and communication of God's own mind and will to men.I as a christian believe that but if your not christian then that is fine worship what you want because it is your choice.Just don't call yourself christian.

Christ himself quoted the scriptures all through his ministry and fulfilled the law.

My fine sir, i'd hate to say it, but saying God is perfect, and following the old testament in any way, is simply ridiculous.The old testament is disgrace to the fundamentals of christianity.

The New Testament is concealed in the Old while the Old is revealed in the New.

Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

John 5:46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.

John 5:47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"

i don't think the NAM promotes the left hand path (service to self, self worship.) I'm not a christian but have a deep reverence for jesus and his teachings. However what I consider myself is a servent of the universal spirit, and that's very VERY new age. To me -everyone and everything combined- is god. the WHOLE is god. we are all like leaves of a tree, we think we are seperate and yet we are part of god, jointly. If i were to write a book about this and the cosmic joke and the cosmic egg etc and how we're all interconnected and in reality actually one It would be described as "new age" -no part of that encourages selfishness, it only adds to and reaffirms jesus's own message that the kingdom of god is within us.

What is so wrong in living comfortably? No matter what you believe i would hope that the Creator you ascribe to would, at the very least, be a benevolent and loving one.<br />
If they are, then life is a gift and something to be treasured. if you are comfortable and happy, then perhaps you are doing it right. <br />
If you spend all of your time in conflict and anger, then there appears to be something that's in direct conflict to what you stand for.<br />
You always seem to be battling and upset with the world. unless it happens to be one of those who kiss you backside and tell you how wise you are.<br />
On one thread you seem to be preaching the most fundamental of Christianity, on another you seem to be angry with God and telling how screwed up belief in God is.<br />
I'm not sure what your beliefs are, or if you simply like to pick a fight.<br />
But if you have this belief that you are in some way frightening or intimidating, you are wrong.<br />
You don't intimidate. In fact, most that i have spoken to find you either mildly annoying or one to be pitied.<br />
You should really open your heart more and, even if you don't want to believe in the beliefs of others, at least find happiness in yours.<br />
You claim to be a witch, ok. Well isn't the Wiccan Rede, if it harms none, do as you will?<br />
What these people believe harms none but themselves.<br />
While the venom and hatred that you spew harms many. If you don't want to live by others beliefs, at least live by your own

@ Leporid,<br />
<br />
This is one of those rare occasions when you actually run into some who is right. Mystik is not only sure she is right but also that you are wrong.... and there is no exit ramp on that one.<br />
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At some point she learned to spell truth and it has stuck.. at the same camp meeting she learned that all of us are fools.<br />
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But as a fellow fool.. I must agree with your initial comment... this is a funny post.<br />
<br />
...................................... Lou

@ MystikRage<br />
There is no TRUTH. Nothing can be proved. Life might just be a dream and nothing any more real and tangible than a thought. <br />
All of us hairless monkeys are foolish, jumping, screaking, pretending we are more than we are. If God exists He must be rolling on the floor with laughter! <br />
What does it matter what one human thinks? Let themtry to find some meaning for themselves if it gives them comfort. Far be it for me to take away or even rattle their belief. <br />
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Some are SOOO sure. They are sooo convinced. <br />
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Prove one thing to me. Prove that you are not a figment of my imagination,a fever dream of a god lost in sleep. If you cannot, then you cannot prove anything, know the Truth about anything. <br />
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Try to find comfort, seek joy, be happy and let others have their dreams.<br />
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Now you have me doing exactly what I am apposing. I applaude you if you were doing that on purpose.

Such a funny post. Like we could ever know the "TRUTH". <br />
I am always amused to find the people who are absolutely CONVINCED that they know the TRUTH. We KNOW nothing! We believe what we believe. It is not your responcibility to push your TRUTH on anyone else. That kind of **** causes wars. <br />
Let it be. Let folks believe what they want to, believe what gives them comfort or joy, believe whatever makes them feel special and beleive they have a purpose and meaning in their lives.

Ok, I havent determined one way or the other about my beliefs on incarnated angels, but your argument is a little flawed. <br />
Most people argue that angels are spiritual only due to the verse in Hebrews 1:14 which states: " Are not all angels ministering spirits? Sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"<br />
But that doesn state that they are only spirit in body. It simply calls them misinistering spirits. I have heard the same term used for those in the medical feild as well, does this mean that they are only spiritual of body?<br />
Angels cannot create. You are absolutely right. But then neither can we. Unless of course you are speaking of creation as in the case of breeding. In which case you should look to the book of Genesis where the "Sons of God" mated with the "Daughters of man".<br />
Dont think that refers to angels? Well then you should check out the books of Enoch. Even though they later chose to remove it from the cannonical bible, it is Quoted by Jesus himself in the new testament, which is a pretty good reference as far as I am concerned.<br />
Lucifer is not a fallen seraphim. Lucifer actually refers to the King of Babylon as shown in Isaiah 14:4 and Ezekiel 28:2. He doesnt hate us. he died thousands of years ago.<br />
And if your ARE referring to Satan. To which one?<br />
Satan is simply a hebrew term for adversary and there have been many over the years. If you are referring to a fallen angel, then again, to which one? Azazel to whom all sin is ascribed? To Sammael? With whom there is no pity or mercy, for he is the dark side of God's Justice? or to numerous others?<br />
I fully believe in salvation through the ressurection of Jesus, but I also think it is time for people to quit stealing away the magic of God's creation. <br />
There were miracles galore at oe time, including the incarnation of angels. The bible and related texts are FULL of them. but yet you and others refuse to see it.<br />
You refer to Michael as a lowly Archangel. He is hardly lowly. And if you didnt depend on a mistaken heirachy written by Dionysus the Areopagite, instead fo the ones handed down by Jewish texts, then you would know that each choir, or rank, of angels has an archangel. They are not a rank unto themselves. Michael was not, is not, and never could be considered "lowly" He is one of the princes of Heaven.<br />
We are allowed to share ion God's creative power and they are not? Really? So you honestly believe that a being of Love, such as God, would be such a bad parent as to pick one of his children over the other? No, we are no better than the angels, get your ego off your shoulders. We all have different places in the Grand Plan of God.<br />
Again we go back to yur suggestion that angels are stictly spiritual beings. But there are numerous examples that they are capable of being physical as well. Lets take the story of Lot, as it is one of my favorites and you suggested it. they were in clothes that gleamed like lightning. Where in there does it say that they were spitirtual? Because they Wore impressive garments? In the story, angel came down to save Lot from the destruction of Sodom. The men of the City saw them and surrounded Lot's house, because they wanted to rape the angels. Do you really think that if the angels were purely spiritual, that the evil men of Sodom would have even seen them? Much less thought that they could have sex with them?<br />
And even if they did, Lot was so concerned for the safety of the angels that he offered up his own daughters instead. Do you think that, if the angels were purely spiritual as you say, that he would have been in the least concerned at what these moratl physical men would have done to them?<br />
Matthew records that the angel who rolled back the stone had an appearance like lightning. So, he glowed. The fact that he rolled back the stone means that he would have had to manifest a physical presence in soe form. Spiritual and physical do not exist on the same plane of reality. To interact one must become more like the other.<br />
Angels are endowed with great intelligence. ok, but how does that make them purely spiritual?<br />
You say that angels only function as God commands, but if this was true there would be no such thing as a fallen angel would there?<br />
They are capable of amazing things, but, again, this does not mean that they are purely spiritual. It would simply mean that they are, obviously, supernatural.<br />
I know this may shake you, but what you have heard about angels is one sided rhetoric and false.<br />
I am not an Incarnated Angel, I am a person who reads and studies his bible and other religious texts daily.<br />
What you said did not shake me. It made me hope that you would read more so that you might know the true majesty of God's work

totoh82 You omitted a substantial amount of information on the last supper and simply dismissed it.This any christian would find very insulting.In reality this was one of the most profound moments in Jesus’ ministry allow me to elaborate.<br />
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At the Last Supper Jesus did something that had been announced 1,850 years before when Melchizedek came and offered a sacrifice of bread and wine. With Melchizedek as in Psalm 110, Malachi chapter 1, or when Jesus fed the multitude and multiplied the loaves, we have different previews of coming attractions.<br />
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When Jesus Christ gave his famous speech in the synagogue in Capernaum about the bread of life, he was announcing what was going to happen at the Last Supper and on the following day. We know that since the passage of the Red Sea a command was given by God through Moses that every year Jews would celebrate the Passover, because on the night before they left, the angel of the Lord came and passed over every family that had put blood on the door post. This is really the commemoration, and Jesus faithfully celebrated the Passover every year. What happened the day before He died is very important for you to understand.<br />
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He gave His body, this is My body. You need to think about that. Then in the same way with the cup after eating saying as He did so, this cup is the New Covenant in My blood which will be shed for you. Jesus is telling us this cup is the New Covenant, a covenant passed in the blood of Jesus. He prophesies that His blood will be shed. We know that this will take place on the following day. This cup is the new covenant in My blood and Matthew adds, you must all drink from it. When we reflect on the Last Supper, we know what Jesus did, we know that He took bread and he took wine. We know that He relived the sacrifice of Melchizedek, in offering a sacrifice of bread and wine. <br />
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You must understand two things about a sacrifice. In a sacrifice there’s an offering and a destruction. The bread was offered and the bread was destroyed; It was no longer bread. He said this is My body, He didn’t say, this is bread. This is My body. He took the cup, offered the cup of wine, destroyed the wine. This is not wine anymore, this is My blood, this was a sacrifice. <br />
Clearly at the Last Supper it’s a real sacrifice, at Calvary, it’s a real sacrifice<br />
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During Jesus' 33 years of life on earth, living and experiencing everything that man experiences, He lived without sin. This made Him the pure and spotless lamb that was without defect ,a perfect sacrifice.<br />
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As you can see it was not just another Passover meal, saying that would be absurd and naive. Only a person ignorant of Christ life would condone such utterances.<br />
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Unfortunately in your case totoh82 you clearly follow multiple doctrines, so you cannot claim to be offended or have a stance on anything, because you follow everything. That is purely your choice but as for me I am Christian meaning I follow of Christ .<br />
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In conclusion totoh82 you may want to heed your own advice and "Learn to read the texts properly first, then think twice about what you're saying."

Lou2012 the bible teaches us that in all existence, from all eternity, there has been and always will be only one God. God was never created, is completely loving, completely just, completely holy, completely merciful and that He desires the best for us. God is holy and He can have nothing to do with sin as the Bible says, "His eyes are too pure to look upon evil," (Hab. 1:13). This does not mean that God cannot see what someone does that is wrong. It is a way of describing how holy God is. God cannot sin. He is perfect.

totoh82 i think you are the one who is mistaken?you say mediums don't exist or witchcraft is not prevalent these days???? i think you may want to retract your statement.<br />
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This is laughable,know what voodoo is?what about wicca?and those horoscopes which so many use???<br />
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What do psychics do when they "call up your loved one" that's just a subtle way of calling up dead spirits which is an abomination before God clearly stated by him.The list goes on and on.Most the what you listed is exactly what goes on today, my point exactly.<br />
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You cannot justify these practices, it is against the law of God, both old and new testament warn against it.Whichever way you look at it. What your doing is equivalent to putting lipstick on a pig.<br />
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If you choose to consciously practice necromancy and the rest of those things, knowing full well its against Gods law so be it you know the consequences.That is your choice but don't try and justify it and drag others down with you, go alone.

totoh82 the Bible is reliable. The original writings of the Bible have been lost. But before they were lost, they were copied. These copies were incredibly accurate, very meticulous, and very precise.<br />
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The Bible is so exceedingly accurate in its transmission from the originals to the present copies, that if you compare it to any other ancient writing, the Bible is light years ahead in terms of number of manusc<x>ripts and accuracy. If the Bible were to be discredited as being unreliable, then it would be necessary to discard the writings of Homer, Plato, and Aristotle as also unreliable since they are far far less well preserved than the Bible.<br />
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The book of Isaiah found among the dead sea scrolls, when compared to more recent manusc<x>ripts, showed very small differences, these being things like punctuation and spelling. But beyond that, it contained the same information as later manusc<x>ripts. This showed clearly that the methods that were used to pass the sc<x>riptures down through the ages were very accurate and the meaning of God's word remained unchanged over time.

totoh82 these are not just ordinary words these are the words of God,Divine revelation.it cannot be equated to some story.Christ is the word made flesh.Salvation in Christ sprinkled throughout the books of the Old Testament as well.The word is complete and was fulfilled with the coming of Christ that is what i believe and what we christians believe.<br />
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Well as a person of the book i follow the book, what you follow is your choice if you choose necromancy which is an abomination to God according to the bible that is your choice and between you and your God.But i will not change my views so that you can justify your practices which are in clear violation of Gods law, necromancy is goes against God even if you want to use the old testament.The same practice is condemned in the new testament as well.Being a medium and use of the dead is forbidden.God himself condemns it.<br />
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i don't care if you even follow beelzebub , but do not claim to be a christian , as i have said on many occasions and delude yourself that you are following the word of God both old and new testament.<br />
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Deuteronomy 18:10<br />
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft.<br />
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it cant get any clearer than that.I don't really see any room for misinterpretation.

I explained this on the first page you clearly have not read or maybe choose not to.When God created angels their creation was complete meaning, no death no reincarnation no shedding of wings to turn into a giant butterfly.<br />
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I also explained why Jesus is higher than angels put simply because Jesus is God making him Infinitely Superior to Angels.<br />
Who made the angels????????? wasn't it not God the angels are created beings and are in the service of God making them subject to Christ.And God Chose to come as a human being not an angel.Lets see what sc<x>ripture says Hebrew 2:14-18<br />
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Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of THE SAME THINGS,THAT THROUGH DEATH he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely IT IS NOT ANGELS that he helps, but he helps The OFFSPRING of Abraham. Therefore he had to BE MADE LIKE HIS BROTHERS IN EVERY RESPECT, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.<br />
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Unknown128 all these verses have answered your questions, if you choose to wallow in ignorance so be it.That is your choice you cannot claim ignorance anymore.

earthgoddesscarla well according to word the nephalim were destroyed so that is an impossibility even if you were to think you were one.

When the Europeans came here, they brought their faith which was then forced onto the locals. As they did this they also learned the locals already had a faith. The monks were given the books used by the Maya and Mextica tribes as their "bible". The monks were outraged by what they found and had all the books gathered and burned (just like Hitler did).<br />
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What had outraged the monks was that these pagan books read much as the bible and in many cases they were equal. Two books survived the onslaught of these monks and the King of Spain. They were smuggled into France where they lay hidden until it was safe. They have been translated into many languages and the book is available in just about any book store.<br />
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The Popul Voh is the French name for The Book of the People. They were written long before the Sumerian's passed of what is the old testament and surely long before Abraham. So if is said that the bible was written by those who were "touched" or guided by god.. then who touched and guided the much earlier writers of the Popul Voh....?? Also... these writers were not Jew, or Christian.....or even from the holy land.<br />
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As for our universe.. it is really quite small. What we can see and measure is our visible universe. In going to the moon and Mars. we only found the same rocks as there are here. In looking and measuring beyond, we find only the same rocks.. But we also know that our visible universe is only 5% of the whole. The only thing that is known for sure is that the other 95% is not made of the same "stuff" as we find everywhere else..<br />
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So.. indeed.. it is time to set aside much of what we think is true.............<br />
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.................................................................... Lou

And from where did the Jews learn of these things.. long before Jesus walked among them..??<br />
Abraham is who brought the current god into being.. So is this god a Jew or a Christian...??<br />
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And now of course we have another version of this same god.. in Islam..<br />
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So when you pray to this one god.. which version do you define as yours...???<br />
There are as many sects of Christianity as there are gods in India.. does he have a different hat for each.. does he do E-mail.. How can help keep track..??<br />
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I know... he does because he is god.. so why did he allow this splintering of his own true faith..??

What do think Jesus believed in? It tells us the whole way through the bible, Jesus says I answer to no man only to God Jesus never taught from any religious texts or books instead the word of God was spoken by God through Jesus

Before man was created God tested the angels Gods law was I am your God their is no other God you will not bow down before or to any other God so God create man in the image of God and said I am God your God bow down to me mistake it was a image of God not God look I need to explain alot and go alot deeper but I think you need to look at the nature of man we seek revenge we can't always forgive we lie we cheat the religion you believe in is the only way to be saved everyone else is going to hell if they follow or believe in something other I haven't got time now to explain it all now but I will later

@ Kohen,<br />
<br />
You say the first thing god created were angels....<br />
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Can you say which god that was...????

Hm, interesting, very interesting. So, you mean to tell us that angels don't incarnate because they are pure spirit yet you believe God, who is pure spirit, incarnated as a human? Can you please make sense outta that?<br />
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And so what if Jesus became a human? You think that humans are higher than angels because of that? Seriously, come on...-_-<br />
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Angels also have the ability to create, and I don't mean reproduce, I mean with their minds; just like humans can. They are as much as a part of God as we are. Stop putting them below human beings.<br />
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Lol, false eh? Well, I can tell u this for sure, its not a new age belief. This was believed by the Jews before Jesus was born. Think i'm wrong? Read the Prayer of Joseph. Theres also a Jewish legend about an angel named Amitiel who fell and has gone through many incarnations to go back to God.

LMAO.............I am sure not a pure spirit. I break all the rules that don't hurt anyone. BUT I am an angelic or nephlium .... ya know the bastard children of the Fallen Angels? But I love God, I help people, love the earth and pray 500 times a day..........................Oh and I love sex, wine, and fun

No anachel reincarnation is optional not forced. When Jesus died on the cross he ended the cycle of reincarnation and it is now only optional.

Read again i said "While these two passages are referring specifically to the kings of Babylon and Tyre, they also REFERENCE the spiritual power BEHIND those kings, namely, SATAN".

moppet Jesus Christ is unique in that;<br />
He is the only, unique Son of God (Psalm 2:7, 11-12; John 1:14; Luke 1:35).<br />
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He is eternal. He existed from eternity past, He exists in the present, and He will exist for all eternity in the future (John 1:1-3, 14; John 8:58).<br />
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Jesus alone is the One who bore our sins so that we could have forgiveness and be saved from them (Isaiah 53; Matthew 1:21; John 1:29; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Corinthians 15:1-3).<br />
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Jesus is the only Way to the Father (John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5); there is no other way to salvation. He is the only righteous One who exchanged that perfect righteousness for our sin (2 Corinthians 5:21).<br />
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Jesus alone had power over His own death and the ability take back His life again (John 2:19; 10:17-18). Note: His resurrection was not a “spiritual” one, but was physical (Luke 24:39). His resurrection from the dead, never to die again, distinguished Him as the unique Son of God (Romans 1:4).<br />
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Jesus alone accepted worship as an equal with the Father (John 20:28-29; Philippians 2:6), and indeed God the Father states that the Son is to be honored as He is honored (John 5:23). All others, whether Jesus’ disciples or angelic beings, rightly reject that worship (Acts 10:25-26; Acts 14:14-15; Matthew 4:10; Revelation 19:10; 22:9).<br />
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Jesus has the power to give life to whom He will (John 5:21).<br />
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The Father has committed all judgment to Jesus (John 5:22).<br />
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Jesus was with the Father and directly involved in the creation, and it is by His hand that all things are held together (John 1:1-3; Ephesians 3:9; Hebrews 1:8-10; Colossians 1:17).<br />
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It is Jesus who will rule the world at the end of this present age (Hebrews 1:8; Isaiah 9:6-7; Daniel 2:35, 44; Revelation 19:11-16).<br />
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Jesus alone was born of a virgin, conceived by the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:20-23; Luke 1:30-35).<br />
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It is Jesus who demonstrated that He had the attributes of God [e.g., the power to forgive sins and heal the sick (Matthew 9:1-7); to calm the wind and waves (Mark 4:37-41; Psalm 89:8-9); to know us, being perfectly acquainted with us (Psalm 139; John 1:46-50; 2:23-25), to raise the dead (John 11; Luke 7:12-15; 8:41-55), etc.]<br />
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There are a great number of prophecies concerning the Messiah’s birth, life, resurrection, person, and purpose. All were fulfilled by Him and no other (Isaiah 7:14; Micah 5:2; Psalm 22; Zechariah 11:12-13; 13:7; Isaiah 9:6-7; Isaiah 53; Psalm 16:10).<br />
<br />
Napoleon is reported to have said: "Jesus Christ has influenced and commanded His subjects without His visible bodily presence." Yet, strangely, some say that Jesus never lived-that he is, in effect, a creation of some first-century men. The respected historian Will Durant argued: "That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels." <br />
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Now to call him a mere cultist is a stretch.

What does the Bible say about "astrology"? <br />
and lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun and the moon and the stars, even all the host of heaven, thou be drawn away and worship them, and serve them, which Jehovah thy God hath allotted unto all the peoples under the whole heaven.<br />
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Astrology is ba<x>sed in falsehood. Everything that God condemns in the Bible are always things that lead people away from God and to, ultimately, their deaths. God does not want you to die...he wants you to live. However, He leaves that choice up to you the individual.<br />
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In the book of Isaiah Chapter 47, judgment is being pronounced on Babylon. Here is what Verse 13 says "Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels: let now the astrologers, the star-gazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from the things that shall come upon thee". <br />
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Here God is challenging astrologers and the like to save Babylon from judgment. He is mocking them.

Lorilorilori yoga is simply a means of physical exercise and strengthening and improving flexibility of the muscles. HOWEVER, the philosophy behind yoga is much more than physically improving oneself. It is an ancient practice derived from India, believed to be the path to spiritual growth and enlightenment.<br />
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The word "yoga" means "union," and the goal is to unite one's transitory (temporary) self with the infinite Brahman, the Hindu concept of "God." This god is NOT a literal being, but is an impersonal spiritual substance that is one with nature and the cosmos. This view is called "pantheism," the belief that EVERYTHING IS GOD and that reality consists only of the universe and nature. Because everything is God, the yoga philosophy makes NO DISTINCTION between man and God.<br />
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The question becomes, is it possible for a Christian to isolate the physical aspects of yoga as simply a method of exercise, without incorporating the spirituality or philosophy behind it? Yoga originated with a blatantly anti-Christian philosophy, and that philosophy HAS NOT changed. It teaches one to focus on oneself instead of on the one true God.<br />
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It encourages its participants to seek the answers to life's difficult questions within their own conscience instead of in the Word of God. It also leaves one open to deception from God's enemy, who searches for victims that he can turn away from God.1 Peter 5:8 Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.<br />
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Whatever we do should be done for God's glory (1 Corinthians 10:31), and we would be wise to heed the words of the apostle Paul: "Fix your thoughts on what is true and honorable and right. Think about things that are pure and lovely and admirable. Think about things that are excellent and worthy of praise" (Philippians 4:8)<br />
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All men are creatures, called out of nothingness to know God. All men are also sinners, cut off from God and destined to death. A Christian is one whose life has been reconstituted in Christ. He is no longer in the place and stance of a sinner, that is, apart from God, acting as if he were the ultimate source, measure, and goal of his own behavior. He is in Christ. Henceforth, his life is supposed to originate in Christ and to be directed to God the Father. I say "supposed to" for it is a possibility that must be acted upon. It is not automatic. The grace of baptism must be incarnated in obedience, and, even after baptism, the Christian can choose to conform to Christ or to his fallen nature, that is, to sin.<br />
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Eastern religions, in contrast, lack revelation of God as a personal Creator who radically transcends his creatures. Though possessing many praiseworthy elements, they nonetheless seek God as if he were part of the universe, rather than its Creator. This is because they are monistic, seeing all reality as one. Thus, God is a dimension, though hidden, of the same reality of which man is a part. The goal therefore is to peel away the exterior world to get to the spiritual reality beneath it. God is conceived of as an impersonal state of being. In contrast, for Christians, God is the Real, and the whole of the universe exists by God’s free choice; creation is a second, contingent reality and, in Christian thought, did not need to exist. Moreover, this contingent universe is the result of a God who is vastly more than mere being; he is a loving Father.<br />
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These differing conceptions of God issue in different approaches to God. In the East, human means are necessarily relied upon to come to God. The goal is not to seek God as an Other, but to achieve an altered state of consciousness. Where a Christian seeks dialogue and interaction with God and, with his help, the "restoration of all things in Christ," by a certain "participation in the divine nature" (2 Peter 4:4), the East seeks God in the self and seeks escape from the distractions of the outer world. The "experience of God" is essentially achieved by psychological and physiological technique rather than by encounter.<br />
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The confusion of technique over encounter arises from a misunderstanding of the indwelling of God. The fact that God indwells us does not mean that we can capture him by techniques. Nor does it mean that we are identical with him in our deepest self. Rather, God indwells us by grace which does not blend human and divine natures. On the contrary, it perfects and empowers our limited human faculties, so that we can relate to him. We can no more manipulate this indwelling of grace by psychological techniques than we can manipulate our existence.<br />
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Analogously, children do not come to know the parents who gave them existence by going deep inside themselves or back to the moment of their conception. They come to know their parents by interaction with them. As children use the faculties given them at conception to grow and become like their parents, so we use the faculties given us by the indwelling Spirit to interact with God and to put on Jesus Christ. As children speak to their parents, so we speak to God by the power of the Holy Spirit who indwells us.

moppet the New Testament contains hundreds of references to Jesus Christ. There are those who date the writing of the Gospels to the second century A.D. more than 100 years after Jesus' death. Even if this were the case (which i strongly dispute), in terms of ancient evidences, writings less than 200 years after events took place are considered very reliable evidences. Further, the vast majority of scholars (Christian and non-Christian) will grant that the Epistles of Paul (at least some of them) were in fact written by Paul in the middle of the first century A.D., less than 40 years after Jesus' death. In terms of ancient manusc<x>ript evidence, this is extraordinarily strong proof of the existence of a man named Jesus in Israel in the early first century A.D.<br />
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It is also important to recognize that in A.D. 70, the Romans invaded and destroyed Jerusalem and most of Israel, slaughtering its inhabitants. Entire cities were literally burned to the ground. We should not be surprised, then, if much evidence of Jesus' existence was destroyed. Many of the eyewitnesses of Jesus would have been killed. These facts likely limited the amount of surviving eyewitness testimony of Jesus.<br />
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Considering that Jesus' ministry was largely confined to a relatively unimportant area in a small corner of the Roman Empire, a surprising amount of information about Jesus can be drawn from secular historical sources. Some of the more important historical evidences of Jesus include the following:<br />
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The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians” (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).<br />
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Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.” One version reads, “At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.”<br />
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Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).<br />
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Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.<br />
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The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.<br />
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Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.<br />
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Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.<br />
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Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.<br />
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In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshiping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).<br />
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There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history.Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. Saying that he did not exist ba<x>sed on Thomas Paine who contradicted himself on many levels would be unreasonable.

sorry i ment the unspoken bible website<br />
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it sets out a theory that The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the Sun, <br />
in which they put a man whom they call Christ, in the place of the Sun, <br />
and pay him the same adoration which was originally paid to the Sun. <br />
-Thomas Paine<br />
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If Jesus was an historical character, he was one of a number of cultists who at that time were preaching Armageddon. The spin meisters who wrote the Gospels had no information on him except what grew to legendary proportions after several decades of oral story telling. The man, if he existed, was a nobody. It's what was written about him, combined with the brutal efforts of Church fabricators that made him so famous. <br />
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Fortunately, centuries of Christian book burning cannot erase the stars. By looking at the Gospels through the eyes of an astrologer, we can understand why the Gospels follow the same story outline. The tale of Jesus takes place within one Zodiac year. By breaking down the Gospels according to each of the twelve Zodiac constellations, we can track Jesus along the sun's ecliptic through references to each motif that the constellations correspond to. <br />
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Astrological timetables are enumerated into twelve ages ba<x>sed on a great cycle spanning almost 26,000 years. The age of Pisces began around 6 BCE, which is why the latter parts of the Gospels refer often to fish. Approximately in 2012 we enter the Age of Aquarius. Christians have been waiting for Jesus immediate return for 2,000 years. Luke gives hope that he might return in the Age of Aquarius.

check out unseen bible - the zodiac interpretation, It makes a lot of sense to me!

theheavensentangel as i said before it is a euphemism.It is not actually the king of Babylon.I explained this in a previous post.You must have misinterpreted it read carefully.

theheavensentangel you clearly did not read what i posted.Read carefully what i stated that they were referring to the power behind the king in Ezekiel 28 which is Satan.I stated the same for Isaiah please read carefully before jumping to conclusions.I went on further to explain what was referenced in Ezekiel 28.Go back and read before misquoting me.

i am catholic too you are a disgrace ariyl you are no catholic sulk all you want.Your bishop would be ashmd.

Aryiale well that is why God gave us his word to help guide us to him.We can easily be led astray if we are not in touch with what sc<x>ripture states.God is merciful indeed, but that doesn't give us the excuse to do what we feel like when we feel like.Picking what suits us best in sc<x>ripture and leaving the rest to suite our present needs is not sincere.If we are to embrace Christ , we must embrace his full message not just part of it otherwise we would be deceiving ourselves and God.<br />
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Christ gave us his teachings in the bible which were complete, why search for anything else?His teachings were straight forward and to the point leaving room for no error in interpretation.<br />
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John 1:14<br />
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.<br />
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John 14:21<br />
Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

Kohen, I am incredibly sincere about my faith and need no one but God to save my soul. I thank you for your concerns, but I no longer feel as though there is any free thought allowed in this discussion, if I am to truly consider myself a person of faith. I was raised, and taught to first be myself as a child of God, and then to believe the words of men who lived before me, and to use those words as a guideline for my life. I was never taught that those words should rule my every thought and action. For me to be who I am, is a testament to God, and to believe his words as I do is a part of His will. I do not need to be saved from myself, if God made me who I am and is forgiving of error.

Aryiale let me refer you to a Catholic lady who was a zealous teacher of the New age and suffered great personal loss because of these false teachings which are from the pits of hell itself.It left her barely clinging to life in the end.<br />
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If your christian you will want to view this and are truly sincere about your faith.<br />
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www.newagedeception.com

l0oree you can make all the personal attacks on me but the word of the Lord doesn't change and will never change it will be there long after you or i leave this world because it is truth. <br />
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You may not like me but and that doesn't really matter i am not here to win a Mr. popularity contest , but if you consider yourself christian follow what the Lord says not what a psychic channeling a demon says.

Aryiale I see no reason why you should be offended, apart from a few remarks from catholicwarrior which were a bit aggressive. But pertaining to our discussion your views would be contrary to what your catechism teaches which is ba<x>sed on the Bible. It does not supersede it because the Bible as I have stated according to your catechism is divine revelation.<br />
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Your Catholic Catechism states: <br />
414 “Satan or the devil and the other demons are fallen angels who have freely refused to serve God and his plan. Their choice against God is definitive. They try to associate man in their revolt against God.”<br />
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Satan very definitely is a real, personal being, the fountainhead of all unbelief and of every kind of moral and spiritual evil in the world.To the Christian, the existence of Satan as a real person is proved by the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ recognized him as such. He referred to him frequently by name (e.g., Luke 10:18; Matthew 4:10; etc.) and indeed called him “the prince of this world” (John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11) I explained this above.<br />
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The root of all sin, in both man and angels, is the twin sin of unbelief and pride—the refusal to submit to God’s will as revealed by His own Word and the accompanying assertion of self-sufficiency which enthrones the creature and his OWN will in the place of God. This was the original sin of Satan, rejecting God’s Word and trying to become God himself. He said in his heart, “I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God . . . I will be like the most High” (Isaiah 14:13,14). Again, these could hardly be the actions or motivations of an impersonal force.<br />
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God did not create Satan as an evil being, however. The angels, like man, were created as free spirits, not as unthinking machines. They were fully able to reject God’s will and rebel against His authority if they should chose to do so.<br />
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Jesus also told us of some of the characteristics of Satan. Christ said he was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him, and that when he speaks he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies (John 8:44).<br />
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There are many temptations that we sadly fall into because our flesh is naturally weak, but we have a God who will not let us be tempted beyond what we can bear; He will provide a way out (1 Corinthians 10:13). We can therefore be victorious and then will thank the Lord for deliverance from temptation. Jesus’ experience in the desert helps us to see these common temptations that keep us from serving God effectively. Furthermore, we learn from Jesus’ response to the temptations exactly how we are to respond—with sc<x>ripture. <br />
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The forces of evil come to us with a myriad of temptations, but all have the same three things at their core: lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. We can only recognize and combat these temptations by saturating our hearts and minds with the Truth. <br />
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The armour of a Christian solider in the spiritual battle of life includes only one offensive weapon, the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God (Ephesians 6:17). Knowing the Bible INTIMATELY will put the Sword in our hands and enable us to be victorious over TEMPTATIONS.

I am offended to be told I am not Roman Catholic. I been confirmed in the faith and have connections to my entire church. I also consider myself to be a fairly open-minded person who has studied the Bible and various other belief systems my whole life. I have searched the Bible and found no statement in there that flat out says that Satan (or Lucifer) is the root of all evil. I was hoping that I would be met here with open mindedness and well reasoned thought, because I know that it is possible among people of faith. I am ashamed of the blind ignorance that pervades this discussion. <br />
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I am most ashamed of you CATHOLICWARRIOR for assuming to know me because what I was taught by my church differs from you. I have tried to be reasonable and simply present ideas and beliefs, personal and from my community, that may spark independent thought, and possibly have a well reasoned and interesting discussion. You offend me, my entire parish, and the Bishop who confirmed me by saying that I am not a Catholic and thinking to apologize for me. If anyone gives Catholics a bad name, it is intolerant fanatics and bigots like you. <br />
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I feel offended that the tolerance and free discussion that was so common here is now gone.

If you are a person who thinks of thereself as better than someone else that God made you are no better than Satan himself in which is the reason why he fell from grace in thinking that he was better and could be better than God. Hellooooo have you not even read the words you wrote. No one is better than the next we are equals. God definitley wants it like that or why would he have made it like that? He threw satan out for wanting it different. I think if you follow satan and want to be better than others and such God might just throw you out also regaurdless of how much bible knowledge you have. I am sure Satan has even more knowledge than you ever thought about having.

Aryiale allow me to correct you Satan means accuser in Hebrew not Lucifer . Lucifer means light-bearer and is a Latin word.

I was raised christian and agree with what kohen said.very valid points.By the way marid nice pic.

Aryiale you claim to be Roman Catholic and to have studied the bible for thirteen years, yet how can you make such a mistake as to claiming that "He (Satan) isn't the cause of all that is bad” . I really question the authenticity of your Catholic faith. Someone who has studied the bible that long would not make such a mistake.<br />
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Let me start from what Christ said Jesus said: <br />
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“If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:42-47<br />
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1 John 5:19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.<br />
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2 Corinthians 2:11 in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes. <br />
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If he was confined to heaven why then would he be setting snares for us.<br />
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2 Cor 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.<br />
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1 Peter 5:8 <br />
Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.<br />
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Who is the God of this age Satan is called the prince of this world, and the god of this world.<br />
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Need I go on.<br />
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Peter who you consider your first pope and an apostle of Christ stated this. Now are you going to doubt Peter as well as a "Devout Roman Catholic"???Why not renounce your Catholic faith while your at it. Your view points would raise a few alarm bells to any Christian let alone Roman Catholic.

Awsome man.

kohen ariyale is not Catholic shame on you whomever you are for giving us Catholics a bad name whatever you are.I apologize for anyone else reading this post n behalf of us real Catholics.

There is no verse or passage in the Bible that says, “Lucifer is Satan,” but an examination of several passages reveals that Lucifer can be none other than Satan. The fall of Lucifer described in Isaiah 14:12 is likely the same that Jesus referred to in Luke 10:18: "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” A similar fall is depicted in Ezekiel 28.<br />
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Isaiah 14:12-18 describes the fall from heaven of one called “Lucifer” in the King James Version and the “morning star, son of the dawn” in the NIV. Other Bible versions call him “Day Star,” “shining star,” and “the bright morning star.” These variations are due to differences of opinion about how to translate the Hebrew word helel. Regardless, the desc<x>ription of the one referred to shows that it can be none other than Satan. We know from Jesus’ own words in Luke 10 that Satan fell from heaven. So, when Isaiah refers to Lucifer or helel being cast down to earth (Isaiah 14:12), it can be none other than Satan. The reason for his fall is found in verses 13 and 14: “You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’” This has always been Satan’s desire – to be God, and it is the very temptation he used in the Garden of Eden to get Eve to disobey God: “You shall be as God” (Genesis 3:5) which you keep referring to.<br />
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Ezekiel 28 is another passage thought to refer to Lucifer/Satan. Although it begins with Ezekiel being commanded by God to “take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre” (v 12), an evil idolatrous king, it soon becomes clear that the passage is referring as well to the power behind that king—Satan. Verse 13 says he was “in Eden, the garden of God.” Clearly, the king of Tyre was never in Eden. Verse 14 says, “You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you.” Apparently, Lucifer/Satan had a position of guardian angel in heaven “among the fiery stones,” thought to be the shining precious jewels that are seen in other desc<x>riptions of heaven (Exodus 24:10; Revelation 21:18-21). Since the king of Tyre was never in heaven, either, this can only be describing Lucifer. The rest of the passage describes the reason he was cast out of heaven. Because of his beauty, his heart became proud and his wisdom was corrupted (v. 17). Pride in his perfection, wisdom and beauty (v. 12) became the source of his downfall, and God threw him to the earth (v. 17). This was witnessed by the Lord Jesus in heaven BEFORE His incarnation (Luke 10:18).<br />
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To summarize, the Hebrew word helel is translated "Lucifer." He was cast out of heaven for his sin of pride and his desire TO BE GOD. Jesus referred to seeing Satan being cast out of heaven. Therefore, we can conclude that Lucifer and Satan are one and the same.<br />
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Your own Catholic catechism clearly states that the bible is divine revelation.Now for you to question that would be to question your whole Faith.Your views may be what you feel but its not what the Bible states.<br />
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Vatican Council states that "All sc<x>ripture (both Old and New Testament) is inspired by God".<br />
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Aryiale my Roman Catholic friend if you truly are Catholic which I doubt you would be eligible for excommunication. I think you better go for Confession after this.<br />
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"But even if we, or an angel from Heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be anathema!"<br />
Galatians 1:8

Might921: Agreed. Satan, which is the name that HUMANS gave Lucifer meaning "accuser", is basically just the warden of hell and the souls who are condemned there. He isn't the cause of all that is bad, but more the angel in charge of after death discipline.

God created "hell." Everyone blames lucifer, satan, demons for making them do bad things. Take responsibility for yourselves. <br />
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Lucifer loved god, that is why he rebelled so their will be duality. Hot and cold, good and evil, love and hate.<br />
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Jesus knew he would be betrayed and knew who would? Jesus knew his teaching would get manipulated so he demonstrated it by acting it out. Jesus asked judas to betray him. He asked him to take the bad reputation. Judas was very loyal and did this. <br />
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I do not references from texts, I only want actual experiences.

Kohen, I know and understand that Lucifer fell before the temptation, but no man, not even the authors of the Bible can say with 100% surety, for what reason he rebelled. He wanted to be God, but did you ever consider that he wanted to be God, because Lucifer, with his pride damaged by God's generosity toward man, thought he could be a better god than God? <br />
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Satan is the demonization of an angel who has been, more or less, demoted to warden of the damned. His punishment for rebellion is to forever be burdened with care of those humans who have fallen. In my studies, I feel that Lucifer tempted Adam and Eve out of spite, trying to prove to God that they were a failed creation, not worthy of His grace. <br />
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The passage from Job you quoted, also does not say that Lucifer entered Heaven uninvited. God simply asked him "Where did you come from" and did not demand to know why Lucifer was in Heaven. There is no context to his appearance before God, just simply that he was there. He then reports his goings on to God and makes a bet with God, still trying to prove that he knows human nature better than the Creator. <br />
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When I fall, I am not implying that Lucifer literally fell from Heaven, but more imply that he fell from grace. He was no longer God's favorite creation or most valued servant.<br />
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I have read my Bible, many times, and have studied it for over 13 years. I am well aware that Lucifer, if he WAS the serpent, tempted Adam and Eve to be LIKE God, not to BE God, saying "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:5) And the Bible never said the serpent in the Garden was Lucifer, but instead that he was "more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made." (Genesis 3:1) <br />
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With Kindness, Aryiale

Aryiale you are very mistaken let me explain Satan’s fall from heaven is symbolically described in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18. While these two passages are referring specifically to the kings of Babylon and Tyre, they also reference the spiritual power behind those kings, namely, Satan. These passages describe why Satan fell, but they do not specifically say when the fall occurred. What we do know is this: the angels were created before the earth (Job 38:4-7). Satan fell BEFORE he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden (Genesis 3:1-14). Satan’s fall, therefore, must have occurred somewhere after the time the angels were created and BEFORE he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Whether Satan’s fall occurred a few minutes, hours, or days before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden, sc<x>ripture does not specifically say.<br />
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The book of Job tells us that, for a time at least, Satan still had access to heaven and to the throne of God. “One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, ’Where have you come from?’ Satan answered the LORD, ‘From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it’” (Job 1:6-7). Apparently at that time, Satan was still moving freely between heaven and earth, speaking to God directly and answering for his activities. At what point God discontinued this access is unknown.<br />
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Why did Satan fall from heaven? Satan fell because of pride. He desired to be God, not to be a servant of God. Notice the many “I will...” statements in Isaiah 14:12-15. Ezekiel 28:12-15 describes Satan as an exceedingly beautiful angel. Satan was likely the highest of all angels, the most beautiful of all of God's creations, but he was not content in his position. Instead, Satan desired to be God, to essentially “kick God off His throne” and take over the rule of the universe. SATAN WANTED TO BE GOD, and interestingly enough, that is what Satan tempted Adam and Eve with in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:1-5). The fall occurred before this read your bible!How did Satan fall from heaven? Actually, a fall is not an accurate desc<x>ription. It would be far more accurate to say God cast Satan out of heaven (Isaiah 14:15; Ezekiel 28:16-17). Satan did not fall from heaven; rather, Satan was pushed out of heaven.

The Bible is NOT a weapon! People need to stop using the quotes as if they were fighting for the very basis of their faith.

Words are symbols that were created by humans to describe the interpretations of their past experiences associated with what they are percieving. When one reads and teaches the words they perceive from another about god, they have different meaning to the words. <br />
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People ask others to show them god, people ask god to show them god, but god is found within. This is one of the many things jesus wanted to teach that through urself, you will have eternal life. Through your higher, inner, christ self. God talks to everyone and not just prophets, but no one listens. They will listed to others and texts 2000 years ago, but not to god itself.

Puck61, I agree with you. Even the writers of the Bible acknowledged that the act of writing the Bible, or the scribes who wrote it, can turn the words of truth into lies. <br />
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Kohen, believe that the Bible was inspired by God, but not literally dictated to the scribes by God, is a fundamental element of Catholicism. I was taught, by priests and nuns, for years that God inspired the writers of the Bible, and only after a very long time had passed since the life and death of Jesus. The Christians of that age thought the second coming would be in their lifetimes, so they told the stories by word of mouth. An unknown number of generations passed before those stories were compiled into the Bible, and pieces of those stories are liable to have been lost in the years they were told, or changed as they were told. Like playing a game of telephone, the longer the story is told, and the more people who tell it, the more likely it is to change.Believing this doesn't make you an Atheist. I am a devout Catholic and it is one of our fundamental beliefs, one that I have been taught all my life.

No one is saying that the Bible is false, they are simply saying that, because it was written by men, and fallible men at that, that it may be....inaccurate. The Bible was meant as a guiding tool, not to be a detailed and infallible record of time, events, and beings. If man has so rarely encountered spiritual angels, then how do they know what they are like, or can be? <br />
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And Lucifer rebelled against God, not because of Jesus, but because God gave humans free will and choice. Angels did not have choice or free will. They were beings created solely for a purpose and were not easily capable of deviating from that purpose. Lucifer was jealous of how God treated Adam and Eve, how He gave them control of their lives and destinies, so Lucifer rebelled. <br />
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And just so you know, I have no "new age rubbish" or "new age teachers". I'm a 20 year old woman who has had a lot of my life to contemplate and think about the Bible, it's contents and it's implications on the world. The Bible is a book of contradictions. One passage will say that doing something will get the immediate wrath of God, while another a few chapters later, will say the same act is forgivable, so the Bible can not be taken at it's face value. It is something that needs to be reflected on and thought about before we can even begin to understand it. The "cold hard facts" stated in the Bible are not 100% fact and can't be seen as such since they were recorded by men, and man is fallible. <br />
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I am not trying to dispute your beliefs, I am simply showing you mine.

well without freewill lucifer wouldnt have had the power to rebel, that was a choice was it not? and to make a choice one must have the freewill to do so

MIGHTY921 that's what you believe but that's not in the bible.Believe what you want but know that what you are following is not Christianity, its a mixture of belief systems from satanism to whatever.As long as your clear with that, i have no problem.

puck61 your welcome keep the faith<br />
God bless

:) I am not condemned. God will decide that and not you or me. Also, angels are real. Also, we all reincarnate. The bible has a lot of truth, but there are many things that are manipulated by man to gain control over people.

Very well said. No I'm not atheist. Thank you for your thorough response. You have said that The Bible is the Word of God. This is what you believe about the Bible and that's all I wanted to know.<br />
Your explanation of Jeremiah 8:8 makes as much sense as any other I've read.

Wow just wow your awesome man.Be blessed kohen.

It is my belief that it is the word of God that is the foundation of my faith.If your an atheist we might as well agree to disagree it will save us both lots of time and needless writing only to end up in a deadlock.As a christian we believe in reading the Holy Bible in light of its context and entire message.<br />
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Actually verse 8 doesn’t indicate that the scribes corrupted the law by altering its text.Notice here that the “lying pen of the scribes” handles the law falsely. How can a pen handle a book if a pen doesn’t have any hands? It is obvious that this is referring to a euphemism about the scribes handling the “pure law” falsely, not altering the text.<br />
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If you look at the immediate context you will see that God poses a question to show why the false scribes cannot claim to be wise, and in verse 9 he answers that question by saying BECAUSE THEY REJECTED THE WORD OF THE LORD (HIS LAW). In light of such rejection, WHAT TYPE OF WISDOM COULD THEY CLAIM TO HAVE? We see that there is no mention that these scribes corrupted the Bible. If verse 8 was claiming that the law was corrupted then why is God calling it his word in verse 9?<br />
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Moreover, how could the people reject the word of God when they would have no way of knowing what it was since it had been corrupted by the scribes?<br />
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They couldn’t have rejected the word of God if they didn’t know what it was and yet God claims that they did reject it. What is the assumption behind this charge? That God’s word was available to the people in an uncorrupt form! <br />
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"Say to them, 'This is what the LORD says: If you do not listen to me and follow MY LAW, WHICH I HAVE SET BEFORE YOU, and if you do not listen to the words of MY SERVANTS THE PROPHETS, whom I have sent to you again and again (though you have not listened) then I will make this house like Shiloh and this city an ob<x>ject of cursing among all the nations of the earth.'" Jeremiah 26:4-6.<br />
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As you can see, both the law AND THE WORDS OF THE PROPHETS were considered equal in God’s eyes, therefore prophets like Ezra and Malachi wouldn’t be following a corrupted law, and their words would be the very words of God himself. <br />
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A careful reading of the context leads us to believe that Jeremiah was referring to the written commentaries of the scribes whereby they falsely interpreted the law of God, leading people astray by their traditions. A similar situation arose between Jesus and the scribes and Pharisees.<br />
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God didn’t need to restore the Torah since it wasn’t corrupted and was already perfect David explicitly taught:<br />
THE LAW OF THE LORD IS PERFECT, reviving the soul. The statutes of the LORD are TRUSTWORTHY, making wise the simple. Psalm 19:7<br />
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Christ said "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Matthew 5:18.Jesus claimed that the Torah as it exists would not pass away until all was fulfilled.<br />
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"Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 'Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!' <br />
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Jesus replied, 'And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?... Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: 'these people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"<br />
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In a similar fashion, Jeremiah was rebuking the scribes for their traditions that were leading the people to reject the word of God. This can be seen from the passage that immediately follows verse 8.<br />
"The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have REJECTED the word of the LORD, what kind of wisdom do they have.” Jeremiah 8:9 <br />
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It is pretty hard to reject God’s word if that word was no longer available.Thus, i see no evidence whatsoever that Jeremiah believed that the text of the Law had been corrupted.

I read this whole thread and I have to say that I'm impressed by the civility and the intellect. Kohen you're a biblical master. Anachel you're obviously very intelligent. As a matter of fact everyone on this thread is impressively intelligent. That is until I came along. Kohen, do you believe that the whole Bible is the Word of God? The foundation of your argument is the Bible. I believe it is sacred text, but I don't believe it is the literal Word of God. Many parts, however are inspired by God. Yes, the writings of Paul would certainly convict Anachel, but the fact remains the indictment comes from words on paper. A sacred text among thousands of sacred texts. That's one thing about the Bible and the Qur'an. They both are books that claim to have cornered the market on the truth, and this has caused a slaughter more than anything ever in history with the possible exception of the bubonic plague. The Bible was written by scribes as far as I know and even the Bible itself says in Jeremiah 8:8 that "surely the lying pen of the scribe works falsehood" and the context of that verse makes it clear that these scribes were lying about the Law. Do you believe, Kohen, that the Bible is literally the Word of God? Every Word?

There you have it MIGHTY your own words have condemned you.

mystikRage i am very impressed bravo!!!!!!!!!!!!<br />
You couldn't have put it better.Amen to that.

l0oree no one is saying that your not wonderfully made from God anything that God makes is good because God is Good.But we as humans are not perfect we are not God's i am clearly pointing out where your errors are.You are not perfect no human is apart from God.We sin everyday so how can we be perfect?This is where we differ greatly.If you were christian you would know this as a fundamental truth.Pride is one of the seven deadly sins, You cannot be so sure of yourself being perfect.This lie has its origins let me point you to the author of those lies.<br />
The Devil got cast out because he thought he was like God ,if i were you i would rethink my stance.Isaiah 14 states<br />
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How you have fallen from heaven,O morning star(Satan), son of the dawn!You have been cast down to the earth,you who once laid low the nations!You said in your heart,“I will ascend to heaven;I will raise my throne above the stars of God;I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;I will make myself like the Most High.”But you are brought down to the grave,to the depths of the pit. <br />
So in reality your the one being "DUMB".

I have been away on personal matters .Anachel we can agree to disagree ,because to be christian is professing belief in Jesus as Christ and following the religion ba<x>sed on the life and TEACHINGS of Jesus and i mean all of them nothing else PERIOD.Well my reason was to point of that what you were following was not Christianity so that you are true to yourself and not mislead.What religion you choose to follow is your choice i have no problem with that as i stated earlier.

I am, I am not searching you seem to be searching for something your not. I am, I am , I am, I am wonderfully made by God. I love myself the way God made me and I seem to love the way God made others too. You are you and I am me. Stop trying to change the perfect will of God. That is what the devil wants you to do. How can you not see that? All that knowledge to be so dumb.

Look in the mirror. Do you find the person looking back at you the person you want to become? Or do you still have to look towards others? I want to become me, I am me, I am good, God made me good in all things. I do not look in the mirror and see you for sure Kohen. I am the image God made not you or anyone else, so stop trying to make peeps what you want to become yourself that is wrong. I will say it again. Wrongggggg.

Kohen*******:) "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"..... And so are you! You can't get to god through anyone else. You must have your own relationship with god. Jesus was teaching all of us to be like him. Imagine if we all walked like jesus. What a beautiful world. <br />
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Hypnosistists perform past-life regressions all the the time. People have near death experience and experience stuff all the time. <br />
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"For all have fallen and fall short of the glory of god" <br />
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Me and you just have different interpretations of the bible, but you say my way is against the way of the lord. So i am going to go to hell? Meanwhile, two days ago, a random woman came up to me and told me i was an angel and i had wings on my back.<br />
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If i live my life with my miss interpretation of the bible, and i do not get baptized and do not except jesus as my savior because i have my own relationship with god, but i walk like jesus would in my life time... would i go to hell?<br />
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If babies who are not baptized or young children who has never learned about god or jesus die, would they go to hell? The native americans were very spiritual sometime ago, did they all go to hell because they never got the chance to get baptized and go into heaven. <br />
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Your probably going to tell me no. So the difference between them and me is that i knew about jesus christ and baptizism. So therefore if i do nothing about with it, i will go to hell.<br />
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Its called karma, if i have created nothing but good energy and love during my life, i will go to heaven. negative energy will go to hell.