Rapture Ready Or Tribulation Ready?

For many that have been drawn into the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church as a Biblical fact, raises the simply question “Would you be prepared physically and Spiritually to go through the Tribulation period if you are wrong”?
churinga churinga
70+, M
9 Responses May 24, 2012

Churinga,

Did you know that the Old Testament speaks of the end times more than the New Testament? Why is that? Because the end times (especially the tribulation), concern Israel, not the church. Just look at Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Joel, Haggai, Zechariah, etc. While there are obvious references in the New Testament to the end times, the volume fails to compare to the volume in the Old Testament. But, I’m going to attempt to keep this as short as I can and compare Zechariah with Revelation.

The first reference is the scroll. While I admit that I can’t be dogmatic here, it is mentioned in both Zechariah 5 and Revelation 5 and has striking similarities. Note a few:

Both contain God’s judgment poured out from heaven on sinful mankind.
(Zech 5:3-4; Rev 5-19)
Both concern the whole earth.
(Zech 5:3; Rev 5-19)
Both are written within and without (on both sides).
(Zech 5:3; Rev 5:1)

If this is indeed the seven sealed scroll in Revelation, then “everyone that stealeth” (which speaks of sins against man [last 6 commandments]), and “everyone that sweareth” (which speaks of sins against God [first 4 commandments]) seem to indicate that the judgments poured out on earth during the Tribulation are all the direct result of man’s sin against God’s moral Law.

I seem to recall reading in Romans 8:1 that “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit” and in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 which says “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” Christians who are genuinely saved and not “nominal” Christians (name only) are not under any condemnation and are not appointed unto wrath because they are in Jesus Christ (who took our place on the cross). The scroll is God’s wrath on mankind during the Tribulation and Christians will not be on earth during that time.

The other reference I want to bring up is the return of Christ. All the references speak of God’s actions with Israel (as well as Jerusalem) and the surrounding nations. I would like to point this out - in both Zechariah 14:5 and in Revelation 19 the Lord returns with his saints, and as a saint, when Christ comes at his second coming, I have to be with him. So therefore I (or any other saint in Christ assuming I die before his return) can’t be present on earth when he returns. Why do you think the church is not mentioned during the events described in Revelation 6-18? Wouldn’t you think that if the church was present that it would be proclaiming the gospel to the lost in an effort to turn as many to Christ as they could during the Tribulation? Of course they would, if they were present. Instead, you see Jews and Gentiles that are specifically said to have been saved during the Tribulation, as well as Angels doing this instead. The church, which was specifically mentioned some 20 times during the first 3 chapters has vanished from the scene, only to appear again as the wife of Christ in Revelation 19 (Ephesians 5:22-28; 2 Corinthians 11:2).

Both of these points work together and are strong indications that the church will not be on earth during the Tribulation. However, entertaining your question and assuming that you are right: yes, I will be ready as I said before.

You answered that come what may you are ready which does address the question. To argue that because the Church is not mentioned in several chapters as proof that the Church has been removed from the earth is to rely on what the Bible doesn't say to prove a point, you can have that in accordance with the Scofield Bible.

First off, I don't use the Scofield Bible, and second, I suppose you have an explanation as to why the church isn't mentioned during the seal, trumpet and vial judgments? If the church is on earth during that time I would think that it would be mentioned at least once. The church is clearly the bride of Christ introduced in Revelation 19, and he would have to get us before we can return with him. Also, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 have no mention of tribulation, and aside from that, God has shown a pattern of removing the righteous before his wrath is poured out.

And while I'm thinking about this, the absent church was not the only point I made, so I'll ask you this: If Christ took my place on the cross, why would I face the wrath of God when 1 Thessalonians 5:9 says that I'm not appointed unto wrath? Everything in Revelation 6-18 is God's wrath being poured out on the lost, especially if the two scrolls in Zechariah 5 and Revelation 5 are the same thing. You can be here to face it all you want, but I have God's promise that I won't be facing his wrath.

i'm still studying up on this whole subject but i think the main problem is most christians seem to think that revelations is still to come! It's not something that is going to happen. We are in the revelation as we speak. why this is not clear i don't know?

as for pre tribulation rapture... at least for those who think that God will save Christians before tribulation. I put it to you we are already in tribulation! unless the world seem fine to you all?

I quote Jesus in Matthew 24 (please read this alongside revelations 6)

"9“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."

revelations 5
"2And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside."

clearly john is shown a time before Jesus! when there was no one worthy to open the scroll. directly followed By Jesus appearing. Then Jesus starts opening the seals and we are at least to me clearly inside that time!

I just think that people should reserve opinion on pre tribulation post tribulation etc until they have really studied the matter. We should stop listening to the word of Man Revelations is revealed in Daniel not in the hearts of men.

Please don't keep your eyes close because you can't bare to be shown wrong! when someone brings you a honest perspective, we should take head and search for the truth. God says this many times that the search will lead you to the truth. It's when you sit there blindly believing what has been fed to you generationally when you stop learning the truth.

Can i ask if people as christians do say something about the Bible. hows about quoting the actual Bible? the answers are all clearly in there!

It is a large stretch of the imagination to compare Matthew 24 with Revelation 5. And to address your point about John showing a time "before Jesus," look at Rev 5:8-9

"And when he (Christ) had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."

The twenty four elders were also present in chapter 4, and were redeemed by the blood of Christ before he came to take the book. According to Revelation 4:1, the voice which spoke to John said "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Everything John saw from this point on was still yet future.

You are correct in that we are in Revelation, but we are only in Chapter 3, nearing the end of the church age, awaiting the rapture that will occur in Revelation 4:1. To sum up Revelation, chapter 1 describes the things which John has seen (the vision of Christ on Patmos), chapters 2 and 3 describe the things which are (the church) and the rest of Revelation (4 through 22) describe the things which shall be hereafter. Since the church is still on earth I can confidently say that we have not reached Revelation 4:1 yet. It's still to come.

ok i have to say after looking at rev 5 again i can say yes. he says no man is found then cries and then is told but there is a lion in the tribe of juda not a man. though i still think this is a vision and not an actual visit to heaven where Jesus actually stands there breaking a physical scroll. this is a vision to john. and he wheeps when no one is found to open the scroll. yet he knew Jesus VERY well and must surely not have cried, unless i think he maybe saw this as the age before Jesus! there was no one that could read the scroll. till the lion from Judah came ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think your mistaken about mathew 24 because Jesus is exactly talking about the end days! please note the following in matthew 24
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15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’b spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
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note daniel explains the beast as mentioned in revelations to be a collective of nations starting with Nebuchadnezzar as the Golden head of the statue.. i don't wanna go into this but you will then clearly see that the beast mentioned in revelations note the references to leopard,bear,lion and one of the heads was wounded to death... you can follow this collection of nations from Nebuchadnezzar all the way down to napoleon abdicating rome after waterloo. that seems then to be the final head(ruler) and they worshiped the dragon that gave his power to the beast(Roman empire stretching Nebuchadnezzar to napoleon) ... also lightly on the fourty and two months(rev13) i forget where, but there is a "key" that in prophecy one day is equal to one year! If you take the 42 months it does seem to translate into years between Nebuchadnezzar and napoleon. Go check it out for yourself if you wish. i can totally be wrong about this i'm just sharing the bits i've come to learn from keeping asking questions -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
where was i? lol oh yeah also matthew 24 29“Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
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revelations 6 : 12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
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clearly Jesus, Daniel and John are referencing the same end times!
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I'm sure what i've said is once again controversial. as i say i don't care what your churches doctrine has told you i'm telling you what i find when i keep on studying after the truth... I'm more than welcome to be shown where i am incorrect. but you'll have to give clear definite scripture.... remember scripture interprets scripture.. man cannot! similarly Jesus(in matthew24) Daniel and revelations are all interpreting each other. you don't really have to sit and think what it is about... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PLEASE NOTE: i am currently busy researching this very topic so i will be the first to admit that my vie is far from complete r concise! but please check the reference between Daniel and revelations and tell me the ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i will however write up a story once i myself can get around this end time prophecies... just check daniel 7 against these beast of revelations and i hope you'll see the thought pattern... note this is not my own idea... it's a here and there approach, listening to what various people have to say about this issue. trying to discern the truth... as i say watch out for upcoming story. and please add what you can please as i am currently studying this very topic

in respect to the rapture or tribulation! please note that the fith seal is exactly that! tribulation for christians! not to be mistaken with the seven vials of God's wrath... that YES is against the wicked not against the faithful(those who have the mark of the beast) that does not mean that christians will not still be on the earth at that time just that the vials of God's wrath will fall upon those followers of the beast...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- revelations 6: 9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a strange feeling that the fifth seal will be broken in our life time so that we will join those saints who where martyrs of old... (apostles for instance---all killed by rome mind you) i think we should all make ready for a time of great tribulation! Will you stand steadfast in Christ when they start persecuting the true Christians? and yes i said true christians because there is obviously alot of false Christine churches also mentioned by Jesus himself in matthew 24 is it? neway like i always say listen to the true head of the church Jesus Christ! He should know :o)

According to words in Revelation, everything in Revelation 4:1 through the Revelation 22 is specifically said to be future events. Read Revelation 4:1 again “After this I looked, and , behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice was as it were a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and [I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.]” (brackets added by me) Anything that tries to place the events in Revelation 4-22 in the first century contradicts what Revelation 4:1 clearly says.

As a note, I never said that Matthew 24 didn’t address the end days. I said that you can’t compare Revelation 5 with Matthew 24, which is what you did in your comment. I can assure you that I’m well aware of what Matthew 24 says. As far as Daniel goes, the interpretation you’re presenting misses the point. He’s not referring to a collective of nations, but rather a sequence of empires. Each one is stronger than the last, but each one dropping in value compared to its predecessor. It can be noted that each successive king loses some authority. Nebuchadnezzar could do whatever he wanted (total authority), the Persian kings didn’t have the authority to repeal laws made by mistake, all the way to Rome which was a democracy. Also, neither Nebuchadnezzar, nor Napoleon, had any part in the Roman Empire, so to include them would be both Biblically and historically inaccurate. On the note about the 42 months, there is no scripture reference to one day equaling one year, there are two places where the Bible says that one day is equal to a thousand years to the LORD, but 42 months simply translates to 3 1/2 years, which lines up with Daniel’s prophecies.

As for Matthew 24:29 and the 6th seal, yes they are similar, but note that the last 19 chapters in Revelation cover only 7 years. And in regard to the 5th seal (which you address later, but I will address now) there is no indication that they are Christians saved before the Tribulation begins. As I point out in my latest comment on this story (outside of my reply to your comment), everything that happens from Revelation 5 through 19 deals with God’s wrath being poured out on mankind (Zechariah 5 and Revelation 5-19) and according to Romans 8:1 and 1 Thessalonians 5:9 those in Christ are not appointed unto wrath OR under any condemnation because Christ took our place on the cross and bore our sins and the wrath of God we deserved.

As you point out, I too have no doubt that the seals will be broken in our lifetime. After all, according to Christ the generation that saw Israel reborn as a nation will see him physically return to earth and set foot on the Mount of Olives. Those that are killed during the 5th seal are (as I understand it) those who are saved during the Tribulation. If Revelation 13:5-9 has any connection with the 5th seal (as Revelation 7, 10, 11:1-13, 12-14 and 17-18 are not chronological), then the 5th seal occurs about halfway through the Tribulation, which is also the timeframe given between the abomination of desolation and the end, 3 1/2 years (according to Daniel 12:11). Jesus also mentions the abomination of desolation as you pointed out in Matthew 24:15, but I argue that the nature of the Olivet discourse in primarily Jewish in context, primarily because the questions Christ was asking related to Jerusalem and the Temple, and when Christ answered he used Jewish terms that Gentiles would not be familiar with.

Yes, scripture does interpret scripture, but according to 1 Corinthians 2:13-15 the Holy Spirit is the one who teaches. As a side note, I have discovered that I have been given, by the Holy Spirit, the gift of knowledge (1 Corinthians 12:8), which means that the Holy Spirit has gifted me with the ability to learn, know and explain the truths of God’s Word. That being said, I do admit that I am growing in that gift and learning how to properly apply it in my life. But nonetheless, I still have it and I am exercising it in an effort to teach other Christians and encourage them.

i don't wish to take over this post ... i will add a more detailed account of what i'm pointing to as it's clear my loose explination does not satisfy... i really would like to point some things out .... i will hoever attempt to do so in a new story and then i ask you to please respond to that story... also please concider the mark of the beast and what that could mean... it does fall into the interpretation i view most accurate up to now...
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mark of the beast - there are only two people on earth. those with the mark of the beast, against God. and those with it mark of God. with God... a method of payment does not account for it as, what of those who do not serve God but refuse the methos... think about... the mark of the beast are on ALL who face the wrath of God... think about this so long and i'lllet you know when my stroy is posted... thank you

The mark of the beast is simply a "mark" of some sort that will either be in the an individual's right hand or forehead that one must accept in order to be able to buy and sell things (Rev 13:16-17). During the Tribulation there will only be two options: 1.) Reject Christ and accept the mark of the beast or 2.) Reject the mark of the beast and accept Christ. Those are the only two options. Both Jews and Gentiles will be saved during the Tribulation, and their actions will be what proves their faith. As I said, rejecting the mark will be the same as accepting Christ and the beast will kill those who reject the his mark.

i agree with you completely on your points and ask you to keep them in mind when i post my story. thank you army :o)

4 More Responses

Hi

Mysteriously, EP just told me that they removed a Group I didn't start, so I just said I've been offline for @ 10 days, except for last Thursday & today on public PC - that I may well use for 2 hrs on Fri too, weather permitting

Last week or so, I did C21 Town Crier style promo for EP in Bangor, Conwy, Colwyn Bay, Rhyl, Southport, Formby, Liverpool, Ormskirk, Warrington, Lymm, Wilmslow & Alderly Edge

Timely Word 4 Today:-

C&P failed, so see www.crosswalk.com/devotionals @ "What Are Yopu Hiding?

www.daystar.com broadcast worldweide @ 10am that Israel has never been more mobilised & doing things only done when war is imminent

Have BBC or CNN etc broadcast that yet?

Fastest for updates are www.cbn.com & www.jpost.com

The Matt 24:30-42 instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus could be at any time

R U Rapture ready?

Ask Jesus to forgive all your sin & to live in your heart as Saviour & Lord

God says, "Behold: I set before you life & death - therefore choose life"<br />
<br />
See<br />
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<a href="http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Sometimes-Wish-To-Disappear/2399427" target="ep_blank">EP Link</a>

Re army1907.<br />
The whole pre-trib rapture is a new doctrine formulated in the nineteenth century and skilfully crafted to appear genuine but cut to ribbons if the Bible is to be the final authority,link this with OSAS and you have the recipe for todays Christians not adhering to the faith of the 1st century Christians.Whats next, belief in the conversion so called of the Emperor Constantine?

I agree it is terrible to be telling Christians : "Don't worry, you won't have to suffer greatly for your faith. The Rapture will take care of all that."

Re concepualclarity.<br />
This issue about the pre-trib rapture ended my Bible College attendance and forced me to leave my local Church which wasn't easy but conditions attached to graduating meant that the per-trib rapture was part of key doctrine.<br />
Sometimes individuals must seperate from the flock and withdraw.<br />
The Scofield Reference Bible was the root cause of the problems and it took many years to get that out of my system and into the light.Todays society in general would not have any idea of what it is like to be hungry and homeless after the sheriff has tossed you into the street and taken all your belongings which is but a sample of what may be just around the corner.

I for one do believe in a pre-trib rapture and I have my reasons, but setting that aside if that interpretation is wrong and I end up going through the tribulation, then my answer is yes. I would be prepared.

My answer is yes. There is nothing a man can give in exchange for his soul, as Jesus said. <br />
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The rise of the homosexual movement and feminism have provided the kind of rationales that are needed for the kind of fierce persecution of believers prophesied in the Bible. When I hear dispensationalists draw a distinction between "the church" and "tribulation saints" I have to roll my eyes. There is no sc<x>riptural basis for that.

You do realize that dispensationalism was invented in the mid-19th century (by an engineer). The early Christian did not teach/preach a pre-tribulation rapture. So I think the odd are against you on this one.

what didn't you understand about the question?