Christine and Beth

Unfortunately, your premise isn't supported by fact. There are any number of countries that mimic our culture. Most notably European countries. And none of them experience death by firearm the way we do. We are unique among industrialized nations in that respect.

Also, the first thing a socialist or communist countries is to take away the citizens weapons. Easier to control unarmed people.
I think it is supported when you look at history. You have plenty of generations who grew up with guns in the home. However you actually had parents who taught their children the dangers of guns and the consequences. These generations were taught respect for laws, people in positions of authority. You didn't have mass media glorifying shooting and killing. There was discipline in the home, and in school. Now the culture is it is no laws or rules apply to me, I can do what I want and there are no consequences.

According to the FBI more people were killed by blunt objects than by rifles and shotguns. So should we ban hammers and bats and all other blunt objects?

Come on, when you have people who will kill somebody just because they were de-friended on Facebook, you have a serious moral and cultural problem, than a weapon problem.

The study, which just appeared in Volume 30, Number 2 of the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy (pp. 649-694), set out to answer the question in its title: "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence." Contrary to conventional wisdom, and the sniffs of our more sophisticated and generally anti-gun counterparts across the pond, the answer is "no." And not just no, as in there is no correlation between gun ownership and violent crime, but an emphatic no, showing a negative correlation: as gun ownership increases, murder and suicide decreases.

The findings of two criminologists - Prof. Don Kates and Prof. Gary Mauser - in their exhaustive study of American and European gun laws and violence rates, are telling:

Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population).

For example, Norway has the highest rate of gun ownership in Western Europe, yet possesses the lowest murder rate. In contrast, Holland's murder rate is nearly the worst, despite having the lowest gun ownership rate in Western Europe. Sweden and Denmark are two more examples of nations with high murder rates but few guns. As the study's authors write in the report:

If the mantra "more guns equal more death and fewer guns equal less death" were true, broad cross-national comparisons should show that nations with higher gun ownership per capita consistently have more death. Nations with higher gun ownership rates, however, do not have higher murder or suicide rates than those with lower gun ownership. Indeed many high gun ownership nations have much lower murder rates. the study also shows that Russia's murder rate is four times higher than the U.S. and more than 20 times higher than Norway. This, in a country that practically eradicated private gun ownership over the course of decades of totalitarian rule and police state methods of suppression. Needless to say, very few Russian murders involve guns.

The important thing to keep in mind is not the rate of deaths by gun - a statistic that anti-gun advocates are quick to recite - but the overall murder rate, regardless of means. The criminologists explain:

[P]er capita murder overall is only half as frequent in the United States as in several other nations where gun murder is rarer, but murder by strangling, stabbing, or beating is much more frequent.

The US has the highest gun ownership rate in the world - an average of 88 per 100 people. That puts it first in the world for gun ownership - and even the number two country, Yemen, has significantly fewer - 54.8 per 100 people
• But the US does not have the worst firearm murder rate - that prize belongs to Honduras, El Salvador and Jamaica. In fact, the US is number 28, with a rate of 2.97 per 100,000 people
• Puerto Rico tops the world's table for firearms murders as a percentage of all homicides - 94.8%. It's followed by Sierra Leone in Africa and Saint Kitts and Nevis in the Caribbean.

Deterrent to crimes (all crimes including murder) is to have EFFECTIVE PUNISHMENT and CONSEQUENCES.
America's high crime rates can be attributed to re volving-door justice. In a typical year in the U.S., there are 8.1 million serious crimes like homicide, assault, and burglary. Only 724,000 adults are arrested and fewer still (193,000) are convicted. Less than 150,000 are sentenced to prison, with 36,00 0 serving less than a year (U.S. News and World Report, July 31, 1989). A 1987 National Institute of Justice study found that the average felon released due to prison overcrowding commits upwards of 187 crimes per year, costing society approximately $430, 000.

Foreign countries are two to six times more effective in solving crimes and punishing criminals than the U.S. In London, about 20% of reported robberies end in conviction; in New York City, less than 5% result in conviction, and in those cases imprisonment is frequently not imposed. Nonetheless, England annually has twice as many homicides with firearms as it did before adopting its tough laws. Despite tight licensing procedures, the handgun-related robbery rate in Britain rose about 200% during the past dozen years, five times as fast as in the U.S.
art of Japan's low crime rate is explained by the efficiency of its criminal justice system, fewer protections of the right to privacy, and fewer rights for criminal suspects than exist in the United States. Japanese police routinely search citizens at will and twice a year pay "home visits" to citizens' residences. Suspect confession rate is 95% and trial conviction rate is over 99.9%. The Tokyo Bar Association has said that the Japanese police routinely "...engage in torture or illegal treatment. Even in cases where suspects claimed to have been tortured and their bodies bore the physical traces to back their claims, courts have still accepted their confessions." Neither the powers and secrecy of the police nor the docility of defense counsel would be acceptable to most Americans. In addition, the Japanese police understate the amount of crime, particularly covering up the problem of organized crime, in order to appear more efficient an d worthy of the respect the citizens have for the police.

Gun prohibitionists use this myth to oppose legislative proposals to allow law-abiding citizens to obtain permits to carry concealed firear ms. In spite of this opposition, numerous states have adopted favorable concealed carry laws over the past few years. In each case, anti-gun activists and politicians predicted that allowing law-abiding people to carry firearms would result in more deaths and injuries as people would resort to gunfire to settle minor disputes. Shoot-outs over fender-benders and Wild-West lawlessness were predicted in an effort to stir up public fear of reasonable laws.When the concealed carry laws were passed and put into pract ice, the result was completely different from the hysterical claims of the gun prohibitionists. In Florida, since the concealed carry law was changed in 1987, the homicide rate has dropped 21%, while the national rate has risen 12%. Across the nation, states with favorable concealed carry laws have a 33% lower homicide rate overall and 37% lower robbery rate than states that allow little or no concealed carry.

I wish I had time to illustrate where you are wrong on each and every point, but I don’t. I’ll come back and address some of the lesser points going forward and in the coming days.

Facts matter. History matters. With that said, here are some facts deserving of your consideration.

“Puerto Rico tops the world's table for firearms murders as a percentage of all homicides - 94.8%. It's followed by Sierra Leone in Africa and Saint Kitts and Nevis in the Caribbean.”

Indeed… But are you aware that Puerto Rico is part of the United States? That Puerto Rico is populated by citizens of the United States, and subject to all US Laws….

“Also, the first thing a socialist or communist countries is to take away the citizens weapons. Easier to control unarmed people.”

No, in fact the opposite is true. Among popular myths on the right, this one is arguably the most popular. In fact, they eagerly apply National Socialist Germany as their prime example. It is absolutely inaccurate- a myth. In fact the exact opposite is true. Nazi Germany actually repealed the gun control measures that were in place under the previous Weimar Republic.

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/11/stop_talking_about_hitler/

“According to the FBI more people were killed by blunt objects than by rifles and shotguns.”

Uh, no… I have no idea where you get your facts. But wherever they come from, you might want to take a very critical and skeptical look at the facts and statements they are giving you.

This is entirely wrong. And to see just how wrong it is, all you need to do is go directly to the FBI. Below is a link that does just that. The vast, overwhelming number of homicides in this country are by firearm.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8

From your table above it shows that were 323 murders by rifle in 2011
356 by shotgun
496 by blunt objects, which is exactly what i posted. last time I checked 496 is greater than 323 or 356.
also 728 by no weapon at all other than the human body (which i stated about martial arts). In 1609, the Satsuma clan of Kyushu invaded and conquered Okinawa. It is widely held that a secret conference of karate masters was held in 1629 to organize an underground resistance movement against the Satsuma, but there are no records now extant to suggest that any organized resistance to Satsuma rule actually occurred. In 1699, the Satsuma instituted a complete ban on private ownership of weapons, along with rigorous enforcement of this edict. Once again, this kindled interest in empty-hand martial arts among the Okinawans. It also served to force its practice and instruction into secrecy, resulting in a proliferation of styles of Te and Kenpo, most of which were maintained as family secrets -- passed down only from father to eldest son for generations. So, it was over 100 years after the Satsuma invasion until the first widely-known karate master emerged.

China
Gun ownership in the People's Republic of China is heavily regulated by law. Generally, private citizens are not allowed to possess guns.

Vietnam

Gun laws in Vietnam are generally referred to as restrictive. The only type of weapon Vietnamese citizens may own is a shotgun, and this is only after a license has been issued. The individual applying for the license must provide valid reasoning for wanting the shotgun such as hunting, and must be at least 18 years of age. Handguns and automatic weapons are prohibited.

In practice, only hunters own guns in Korea. (And hunters are not many in Korea.) By regulation, hunters cannot keep their guns all the time -- they must keep their guns at the police station during off-season. Handguns are pretty much nonexistent among civilians.

To quote Hitler"“The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let’s not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country.”

Nazi Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

"“If the opposition disarms, well and good. If it refuses to disarm, we shall disarm it ourselves.”
- Joseph Stalin

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. By 1987 that figure had risen to 61,911,000.

“The measures adopted to restore public order are: First of all, the elimination of the so-called subversive elements. … They were elements of disorder and subversion. On the morrow of each conflict I gave the categorical order to confiscate the largest possible number of weapons of every sort and kind. This confiscation, which continues with the utmost energy, has given satisfactory results.”
- Benito Mussolini, address to the Italian Senate, 1931

“All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns, that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party.”
- Mao Tze Tung, Nov 6 1938

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952 10,076,000 political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated in Kuomintang China, and by 1987 another 35,236,000 exterminations were carried out under the Communists.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. Between 1975 and 19793, 2,035,000 “educated” people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

During the short four years of its rule in Cambodia, Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge government murdered over 31 percent of the entire Cambodian population.

Our founding fathers also recognized the need for a MORAL SOCIETY, which something we don't have now.

“A free people ought to be armed.”
– George Washington

“No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government”
– Thomas Jefferson,

“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined…The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun.”
- Patrick Henry
“Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self defense.”
- John Adams

“To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them.”
– George Mason,

“Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms.”
- James Madison,

“To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them.”
- Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, Initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights

Down through history, governments have disarmed their citizens only to tyrannize those citizens once they were disarmed.

After the government of the Ottoman Empire quickly crushed an Armenian revolt in 1893, tens of thousands of Armenians were murdered by mobs armed and encouraged by the government. As anti-Armenian mobs were being armed, the government attempted to convince Armenians to surrender their guns.

Soviet Union..In October 1918, the Council of People's Commissars (the government) ordered the surrender of all firearms, ammunition, and sabres. [15] As has been the case in almost every nation where firearms registration has been introduced, registration proved a prelude to confiscation. Exempt from the confiscation order, however, were members of the Communist Party.

Germany
After Germany's defeat in World War I, the democratic Weimar government, fearing (with good cause) efforts by Communists or the militaristic right to overthrow the government, ordered the surrender of all firearms. Governmental efforts to disarm the civilian population--in part to comply with the Versailles Treaty--apparently ended in 1921

Guatemala
In 1873, firearms sales were prohibited, and firearms owners were required to turn their guns over to the government.

Uganda
Amin's army numbered about 25,000 and his secret police--the "State Research Bureau"--only 3,000. [94] The army was ill-disciplined and incompetent, and collapsed not long after Amin began his ill-advised war against Tanzania in late 1978. [95] How could such a small and pathetic army get away with mass murder against a nation of thirteen million people? Is it possible that a disarmed Ugandan population was easier to murder than an armed one?

Sorry hebrews - I agree with most of your arguments (and I assume you would agree with mine) but on this point she is right. We will never be able to convince her nor her us but lets be honest in these discussions so we can try to understand both sides.

"According to the FBI more people were killed by blunt objects than by rifles and shotguns. "

The term 'and' is inclusive - had you said 'or' you may have been grammatically correct but still missing the overall point.

496 blunt objects
8,583 firearms (handguns + shotguns + rifles + other guns)

Firearms are used most frequently by criminals to commit murder (about 3/4 of all murders) because they are the most convenient tool. If all we had were knives or IEDs than they would be at the top of the list.

That is not a small difference.

But we should dig a bit deeper and look at overall crime in the US, when, where and why it happens and the socioeconomic indicators. These events like Sandy Hook are outliers and should be considered with less weight than the day to day violent crime that is occurring. Chicago, for example - in just the first 6 months of 2012 it had 250 murders while NYC had 193 but is 3x the size of Chicago.
(http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/02/chicago-murder-rate-surges-as-new-york-s-drops-to-record-low.html)

Crime is the problem. People's hearts are the problem. Not sure what the solution is but limiting the freedom of people who obey the laws is not the answer.

That is really my point....people, which is what I said in my first response. Crime starts in the hearts and minds of people. Also look at the judicial systems ( or consequences rendered) There has to be a deterrent that is effective in making one stop and think about the consequences.

I don't intend to get into a debate or argument. We've seen enough of that. And I don't mean that disrespectfully, because unlike many on your side of this position you seem intelligent, considered, and well spoken.

But having said that, you are wrong. These two women could not have been killed in this place and at this time with anything but a gun. Which if not for bullet proof vests, we would be talking at two more dead among those guarding this place. I also cite two other examples. And in neither of those would that carnage happened with a knife.

It is about the guns. The sooner we accept that, the sooner we can move forward.

I suppose everyone to their own opinion but as a person trained in martial arts I know my main weapon is my mind. Not to be argumentative and just as an exercise in judgement and logic, if seems obvious that if no one pulls a trigger the gun cannot kill anyone. Sorry I know this is not a simple issue as I already said. Please tell me what is your solution then, ban all guns?