Chance Meeting

Agnostic: Do you have a religion? Not believing anything made me an agnostic - well I have my own sets of beliefs now but that’s the closest word to it.

Pantheist: My religion is truth. I am a believer in one truth/reality. But I have a very open mind and toss around different models of reality. I think religion and science say the same things if you’re willing to reach in and find the common denominator. The middle way. When you read my posts however, realize that I operate "through" the body of mythology to creatively depict concepts that are difficult to explain with normal mundane language.

Agnostic: Do you think there is a god?

Pantheist: I don't think you have time for my answer to that. ;)

Agnostic: I do.

Pantheist: I don't think I can offer a simple explanation. I am not trying to dodge your question here. But people have contorted the idea of what God may or may not be for so long. "How can I render back into light-world language the speech defying pronouncements of the dark? Or put into terms of yes and no ideas that transcend opposites? How can I teach again what has been taught correctly and incorrectly learned a thousand times through the millennium of mankind's prudent folly?" The very idea of God is a symbol that we are supposed to move through to see an idea that transcends human experience and human research. We cannot talk about these things.

But if you want a more typical answer… I am unsure if I can give you one. Yes and no. What if I said I believed in God but not in everlasting life or the immortality of the soul? What would you say then? Or what if I believed in reincarnation but not in God?

Agnostic: I cannot exactly say that I truly am agnostic but I thought that is the most appropriate word for it. Honestly saying "truth" as an answer sounds like an excuse so I chose another word. Well think of it this way. I may learn something from your answer.

Pantheist: That’s very wise of you. You can learn something from people even when they have nothing to teach. "The wise make justice there guide and learn from all, perhaps in this way the door can be opened again whose key has been lost."

The term truth can be confusing. I do not use it in the classical sense. What I meant to say is my religion is science, in a way, but unfortunately science is failing the world right now because it refuses to face certain ideals that are considered borderline on the realm of the mystical. We need this kind of artistic mythological understanding to be able to relate to the forces at work in our selves. Science doesn't offer it currently. In order to understand those archetypal forces I take the scientific approach and keeping an open mind I delve into the realm of the mystical neither believing nor disbelieving but just trying to listen with an inner ear and see with an inner eye what is going on in the collective soul of man. I have learned to “knock on the sky and listen to the sound.”
 
Agnostic: In response to your answer “Yes & No.”
 
It does force you to answer to pick a side and limits possibilities. I understand that as much, just like I never believe that there are such things as good & evil. I said that to a professor before and he did raise an eyebrow. I’m guessing in this conversation I’m in his shoes then?
 
In response to your statement “What if I said I believed in god but not in everlasting life or the immortality of the soul? What would you say then?”
 
So what? Not exactly an atheist so I don’t denounce the possibility of a god in any form (although the god they teach us is very unlikely to exist for me). I don’t denounce the possibility of reincarnation either in any form. Well, if I’m boring you that’s another case.
 
Pantheist: You’re not boring me by the way, I have nothing to do as of late. I leave EP signed in most of the day and just do my thing around the home. I like engaging in talks like this if someone is genuinely curious.
 
I do not believe in good and evil. It is not a question of belief to me however. That is something I can clearly see when I look at the world. There is no good or evil. Hot and cold on a lower level seem to be opposites but they are two extremes of one constant, temperature. So does hot really exist? It’s just your positionality that lends to the illusion of its existence. That doesn't mean that you’re not going to burn your fk’n hand off when you spill a pot of scolding water however. If you’re asking whether or not I believe in a personal God, like the biblical God who follows people through deserts in fiery clouds, then no I do not. or rather, I don't think that fiery cloud following them.. was God.  I am not closed to the possibility of an eternal soul either but since my experience "currently" is lacking in that department I am forced to withhold my opinion. Now I have had the religious experience that many have had that leads them to religion. Its described in my post called "I Am Fallen" but I am personifying the energies at work inside myself when I write stories like that. I did not have a conversation with God so to speak (in words) but rather I witnessed the unfolding of the forces at work in my own spectrum of consciousness. Speaking about it in this sense doesn't transfer the message of what happened however, a message which is moving and mythological.

See how explaining God can get complicated? Basically it’s like asking someone "what is your model of reality" and waiting for an answer. But we can direct questions to get a feel of the overall idea I think.

Agnostic: Cold however is the absence of heat. Good & Evil or Morality is not something that is permanent. It depends on your culture, the era when you were born etc. I believe humanity & common good is somehow subjective based on where in history you are born to (which I am not an expert of). Love however is a feeling we know it exist because we feel but the fact that chemical reaction occur during it doesn't necessarily mean it’s meaningless. It does not mean Chemical Reactions/Needs create Love or the other way around. It could be it happens at the same time. Ok this might look childish for you but there is a "comic" I used to read and it is quite childish but it still gives a debate about "truth". If reincarnation is real then it would probably like this.

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/gantz-chapter-370.html?ch=Chapter+372&page=9

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/gantz-chapter-370.html?ch=Chapter+372&page=10

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/gantz-chapter-370.html?ch=Chapter+372&page=11

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/gantz-chapter-370.html?ch=Chapter+372&page=12

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/gantz-chapter-370.html?ch=Chapter+372&page=13

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/gantz-chapter-370.html?ch=Chapter+372&page=14

The conversation began here, however.

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/gantz-chapter-370.html?ch=Chapter+370&page=1

For me I cannot put this idea properly into words yet. See if this somehow interests you. But I can’t say I believe in everything in those images.

Pantheist: (15 minutes later after reading the first two episodes of the comic) Holy **** dude, I am unsure if that was the most disturbing or the most enlightening **** I’ve ever seen. I think I need to gouge my eyes out.

Agnostic: Well, it’s not that complicated because most people are contented with fixed ideas or images. And most of those ideas are also based on what they were indoctrinated, taught without having any sort of thought in it. By the way, I believe in a greater scheme of things Humans are nothing more than animals. We are no more important than the planet itself. It’s just that humans are narcissistic beings that created god to make themselves feel better/important. We chose to live this way, we feel, we love, we make our own purpose but that importance is limited to ourselves.
 
Pantheist: I see the symbolism, very interesting way of portraying the negotiations. I assume whatever power that was in the comic (the alien intelligence) was using the faces of people incarnated on earth and their own knowledge to convey the answers to them. Very crazy. I need to reread it from the start I think. But yea, the universe is energy, And depending on your positionality your perception lends to the illusion of every belief you see in the world but in the end, ultimately it is an illusion that must be seen through. Nothing is really real as most believe.
 
I do go a step further in my own model and personify the totality of all things made. I refer to it as my father because of my Judeo-Christian upbringing but when I visualize this "totality" I imagine it as a kind of musical note or math symbol that exists on the top of a great tree that stretches throughout the many facets of the multidimensional universe. Personifying it allows me to ask questions (to myself) and receive answers in return. The answers are “presented” to me through my own reservoir of knowledge. This has also been called channeling.
 
Delving deeper and asking further questions I can slowly change my model of reality by just talking to myself in this fashion. I refer to this process as "reading the design." I am fallen however and like you my ability to reach into my-self is limited now.
 
I concur with you on the part where were no better than animals but I refrain from thinking of animals as lower than us. That diminishes our view of ourselves and self-esteem. I would rather elevate all things in creation to our level and see all things as holy and perfect and equal. By looking at all of life in this respect, with love and awe and reverence I open my spectrum of awareness to facts (like a sensitive lover to his partner’s needs) that I would be unaware of otherwise. We have to be careful as seekers not to remove ourselves from our connection to reality too far. So in that sense I do have a personal relationship to the universe but I do not believe in a personal God. I am the personal God.
 
Agnostic: In response to your statement “I refer to this process as reading the design. I am fallen however and like you my ability to reach into my-self is limited now.”

What made you say that it is limited "now"? The comic Gantz has its good points, tend to have nihilistic portrayal on human life. And it’s mostly gore and some coming of age scenes (not ****). & some here and there philosophical questions.
 
Pantheist: In response to your statement "Good & Evil or Morality is not something that is permanent. It depends on your culture, the era when you were born etc."
 
While there are cultural differences there are also mono-myths about BIG ideas of good and evil that seem to transcend culture. These too are found in Jung’s works and Joseph Campbell talks about them. But in the end I think we arrive at the same conclusion, that what is good or evil depends on our own individual needs etc and not some "law" written in the fabric of the universe. Therefore true good and true evil are nonexistent. It’s all relative.
 
In response to your question “What made you say that it is limited now?”
 
This is difficult to describe easily. I am going to most likely cross over in my mythological interpretation to "paint" a picture so don't take this literally. Typically you can only see as far into reality as you can see into your-self. I dropped the cup of Christ. My whole personality was flooded with unrestrained power from the archetypal realm. What occurred caused an emotional breakdown (of sorts). I slowly begin a restoration that has taken me 15 years. In order to see clearly into the crystal ball you need to be honest with yourself (no obstructions between the conscious and unconscious). You need to be able to allow your consciousness to be fluid and bending like water so it can change easily and contort to different models of reality. Most of us have our egos "locked" into place from a normal lifetime of development. Enlightenment is the process of liquidating our consciousness and letting it flow over everything we see and do completely without critical judgments that block possibilities and probabilities. After my fall my liquidated consciousness stopped flowing and began to "clot" so to speak back into static egotistical perceptions. I “fell” in consciousness. That "clotting" of the mental blood limits my ability to read the design. I can force it using certain esoteric yoga techniques but I am concerned about aneurism and stroke. This is refereed to in esoteric science as a "vaccination" and is the basis for the Catholic belief in exorcism. I tread lightly now.
 
Agnostic: The way I refer to animals is condescending? But that doesn’t change the fact that we are in the scale of all existing matter just "dust". There were plenty of aliens there (in the comic) including some which are superior to humans in many ways, some of which treated humans as cattle. We humans treat cattle as cattle and pigs as pigs -if this is somehow offensive then I apologize. The aliens that re-created them (in the comic) were somehow like "gods" [if they could say so]? Would you agree?
 
If there was a god do you think he made the world on a whim? My personal point of view is that God/s doesn’t exist. He is not important, just as I think we aren't. We exist not because of love, but probably by evolution, happening, coincidence or some indifferent god who don’t care either way. If that’s the case then we exist just for ourselves. By the way, I agree with the way you put up your model, it’s pretty much the same as mine.
 
Pantheist: In a universe that is infinite in size all things divide equally and are therefore equally important. There is truth to what you say. It rings true. We are no better than animals or more important than grains of dust. Consequently however, we are equally as important as the stars in the heavens and that makes me feel rather impressive. Yes if aliens were to have put us here people would think of them as god and they are not. No God in that sense exists. No sentient being exists that created the universe by conscious whim. Yet... we are personal beings. We personalize everything. You could go so far as to say that many sentient creatures evolve the same way we do or can. That evolution might follow a certain pattern. So if we are equal to everything else and we personify our reality then in a sense we are the personal God. So this is where the illusion of a personal God probably arises. From our projecting our-selves onto the universe. But there is no concordant reality to this disposition. So again there is no God to be found here.
 
However, there is information stored in the universe and we access it according to our view of reality. So when we are developing our model of creation we must take into account that our perception of and relationship to creation determines what information we may or may not be able to retrieve. So there may still be an evolutionary necessity for a model of creation that includes personal relations at the level of perception to that creation. If that makes sense.
 
Agnostic: You lost me there on the 2nd paragraph. However I am tempted to ask you what god really is to you? Is he a creator? If there is such thing as another realm (just like Gantz presented) do you think it matters? Do you believe that "data" or "ideas" come back & forth in this world and the realm? You know It’s amusing that those "super" aliens that have godlike powers to even mention another realm. As something even they cannot touch.
 
Pantheist: You do not have to define what god is. My deity is not yours. To me God is the totality of all things made. I picture God as a kind of math symbol "up there" in the higher/highest dimensions. There is a transcendent realm that we cannot touch on in thought. We can feed it questions and get answers back but the answers depend on our own body of knowledge.
 
That is a metaphysical explanation. We have reached the point now where metaphysical language is required to continue, to some degree at least.
 
In response to “you lost me in paragraph 2.”
 
It’s hard to define these things. Think of it like this. You have an English program made for Windows. The program is designed to teach English. But it is written in computer code (ones and zeros). If an alien intelligence got a hold of that software and started looking too closely at its "data" or code to try to find out how to speak English it wouldn't work out to well for him would it?
 
Data is not knowledge, knowledge is not wisdom, and wisdom is not experience.
 
What you get out of the universe depends on your disposition. Your "relationship" to it. So as humans there may be a necessity for a personal relationship to reality. So that we can read the code in the right way to make sense of it so that it teaches English (what we need to evolve spiritually). Imagine for a moment that half of your brain is written in computer code, ones and zeros (logic) and the other half is in English (creative thought). Part of our consciousness is like that of those aliens in the comic allowing us to see ourselves from the point of view of the universe as if we were looking down at ourselves from above. We would be very small and just waves of energy and particles tossed about on a cosmic ocean of probabilities like quarks and photons. But your human and you have another body of knowledge that you’re coded to work with here and now on earth.
 
YOU have a purpose here and now and not just out there. Understanding this requires a shift in your model of reality but not an alteration.
 
Creative project: Try this. Give yourself permission to see the universe and relate to it on a personal level. I am not telling you to go out and get baptized. Just read a little on meditation or if you know how to pray, go down on your knees when it is quiet and take a leap of faith (just try it) and summon up your model of creation, its highest dimension into a visualization in your mind, hold it there. Remain calm and try to stay centered. Take a slow deep breath and speak to it. On a personal level. This will activate another body of code inside you. Remember Star Trek (the first movie) when Voyager came back to earth and needed the other half of the code to finish the download? It’s like that.
 
Look inside yourself and give yourself permission to relate to your model of creation on a personal level. It may take time and might not work the first try. You need to have a sense of awe and reverence for it to be real effective. Be sincere, believe. Ask for assistance from divine cosmic intelligence to unlock and balance your internal energies. Ask for it on behalf of the benefit and liberation of all living beings from suffering and ignorance. What you are doing is creating a deity. An image of reality through which you move to reach the transcendent. When you have the image raise it up slightly above the horizon (so that your looking upward at it) then ask it questions you would ask God. Real or imagined, belief is important for it to work. Belief in the God you are. You may not be ready for this yet. You may not have the surplus of forces to face this right now. I would encourage you to at least keep an open mind and try it. Think of it as an art project. You will find that when you relate to any-thing as a THOU rather than an IT you “retrieve” a different body of information from it.
 
Think of it like this. Your code is stored inside your DNA. You access half mentally (logically) by how deeply you ponder reality from a perspective outside your own, this is also called the “overview” by the way. The other half is accessed through the archetypal realm which is based in emotion and creativity. Accessing code stored in the creative core can be tricky because there is a kind of “firewall” in place that only allows information to move one way. The barrier of the subconscious. You have to “lure” it out.
 
This is why I say the soul seeks to know itself in the world. What you seek, seeks you so to speak.
 
You are love. I mean truly you ARE love. If love doesn't exist in YOU then it doesn't exist at all. Your DNA is coded for love. So there is information in that code that cannot be accessed through logic. So when you "imagine" the universe loves you through a personal relationship to it (whether it is real or imagined is irrelevant) what you are doing is awakening part of your own genetic code, the strand in particular that loves. When certain strands or emotional vibrations are brought into harmony together (love, reverence, awe, etc) and combined with selfless reflection a higher level of intelligence begins to unlock within human consciousness.
 
This is what I meant when I said that there may be an evolutionary necessity for a model of reality that includes a personal relationship to creation. So when you meditate let go of your reason like Obi Wan said to Luke and just be mindful of the force. Reach out with your senses and feel that the universe loves you, truly feel it and it will activate the other part of your code, then you sit and allow the two (logic and creativity) to merge while you "negotiate" with the God you are.
 
Agnostic: I presume Cannabis would be helpful with that… haha!
Phaethon Phaethon
31-35, M
Dec 10, 2012