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My Vision...

Recently, I had a vision. It actually transpired just this past Friday. I was debating with people on a Christian board here on EP. I wanted their opinion on the Bible. Well, the minute I even questioned the Bible as the word of the Lord, I was defamed and accused of going against God, and even called an Atheist. When, in fact, I LOVE God and Jesus more than ANYTHING. It is just proven fact that the book, the Bible, was written by MAN, not Jesus or God himself. Because of this, I cannot call a book, written by man and not divinity, THE word of the Lord. I cannot call a book written by so called "disciples" as the Word of God. People are biased, and likely to write their own STORIES of interpretations of what happened in Jesus' life. So how can I take a bunch of writings, which as aforementioned, are their interpretations of events that transpired, as the word of God?? I use the Bible to learn about Jesus' life and teachings, and take with it what I will, but I do not claim it to be the word of the Lord. And mind you, the Bible was written HUNDREDS of years AFTER Jesus' death, so how can a bible written DECADES later be the word of God, when not only was it written by MAN, but hundreds of years AFTER the events, which makes it highly flawed and words and such likely to be changed around? It cannot be the word of God, for it was not written by God. This is where Christians disagree. They asked me to PROVE what I claimed. Prove it was not written by God. Yet they HAVE THEIR PROOF IN THE BIBLE ITSELF! The book of Michael, etc. is written by THOSE DESCIPLES. It was NOT written BY GOD or Jesus themselves! So, it is NOT the word of God, but a document/book put together based on all these writings. It is why I can no longer truly call myself a Christian....

Anyway, back to the vision. After what transpired, I said a prayer to the Lord, asking for any sort of sign or proof if I was RIGHT or WRONG in my claims. I was open to BOTH ideas, mind you. I just wanted proof as to whether the Bible was the word of our Father or was it just the words of men? I also asked for FORGIVENESS if I was in any way WRONG. Well, I got a response, in a vision that I could not shake from my brain....

It was not a pretty one, to say the least..... Christians would say it was a message from the devil.... but it wasn't. I prayed, and I saw the vision. I prayed for God to show me the truth. If ANYTHING of what I had said here or assumed to be True was wrong, I wanted Him to show me. Then I got the vision... It was a horrid one. It made me cry when I saw it.... In this vision, I saw CHRISTIANS.... yes, Christians.... on chains, naked, chained by Satan himself, as they laid naked on the floor, which was bare and hard. In their hands was the Bible. One of them cried and prayed... hoping for God to save them. He didn't..... instead the devil laughed and lashed at them..... the bible fell out of the one guy's hands onto the soiled ground.... Then I saw a light, and I heard the words of the Lord. And he spoke. He spoke how it saddened him to see all the segregation and separation that had happened in the Christian Faith, but not only that how so much hate is brought on by these religious beliefs, and the BIble among them has caused so much disdain. And how it is love, and understanding of all cultures, religions, etc. is what he wants to see. Not this separation and anger, hate, distrust. But I am sure many will doubt the credibility of the vision... Yet what I saw was very clear.... and I felt a divine presence as I envisioned it. The next two days, a lot of positive changes have taken place in my life. I had the vision Friday... and between Saturday and Sunday, those two days were probably the most blessed days I have had in a long time. I found things long lost, and a lot of other good things started happening. I do not take either of these as mere coincidences. So if I am so wrong.... then why did I have the vision, and why did it feel divine?? I prayed for God to show me the TRUTH, if I was wrong.... but that is what I saw.... and it was very clear on what it meant. I had no doubt the message that was being portrayed to me. Then I heard HIS words. Only to feel divinity while he spoke. Then what transpired the next day, it just all flowed so smoothly and perfectly, like it is really the work of God....


UPDATE: I want to clarify something. My vision, or what have you, does NOT mean it literally means Christians who follow the bible are going to Hell. What I got from the message was Him saying that due to the flaws in the Christian Faith to believe the book as the word of God, and due to the fact that people use it as a means to not only dicate their lives, but put their beliefs upon others, only further separates them from the Lord....


It does not mean they are not loved by God, nor that God has abandoned them. Just that if they continue to follow such beliefs, it will lead them further from the Truth. The bible is NOT holy.... is what the message that was portrayed. It is stories, and teachings of what transpired. Much like a history book... but it is not the word of the Lord. That is why there was the image of Satan.... how man has corrupted his teachings to us through his disciples by writing books, and not only that, by mistaking the words of the books as the literal words of our Lord and Savior.
SnowCrystal SnowCrystal 26-30, F 50 Responses Oct 17, 2011

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you are right! The bible is written by men! the ten commandments and the apostles creed, are all works of man! The LAW OF NATURE IS GODS LAW! and the bible does not teach what Jesus taught!

I read your story and it is interesting but a few things came to mind.One if God does not want people to read His holy word then why has He made sure it has been preserved all these yrs?<br />
He even states in His Bible that He is responsible for His word to be read and that He made it available for any to read in it.Jesus himself said that his word could pass away but not his Fathers.<br />
I believe you had a dream but I don't think your dream invalidates the Bible.Since God only speaks to us through His holy Bible it would not be Him that would nullify His Bible.<br />
The Bible teaches people how to love God,themselves and their fellow man.It is the only book that one can gain life from according the Jesus.I also do not find any flaws in the Christian faith,not sure what flaws you are referring too but anyway than you for sharing your story.<br />
I do enjoy friendly conversations about the Bible.I do not judge others in how they want to believe but at the same time I am always willing to discuss why I believe the way i do.

Again, you are looking at words inscribed in a leather bound book, written by man, saying "He said it was His word." Never did Jesus claim to be God, nor did he claim the Bible as His word (God's word). He spoke the words the Lord (his Father) had taught him, and ONLY quoted what God had said to him (Jesus). When he said "You can only get to Heaven through Me," he was referring that his Father, our God, said that you can only get to heaven through Him, and by no other means. Never did he indicate himself. It is canon religions that indicate otherwise.

And mind you, the bible was compiled hundreds of years AFTER Jesus' death, during the time of Constantine's reign, around 337 AD.

The actual scriptures themselves were written between 48 and 95 AD.... which is 48+ years after the birth of Jesus, and approx. 18-65 years after his death, as he died around the age of 30. The book itself was then compiled, and only select documents and SECTIONS OF DOCUMENTS were included, while a lot were left out.

No the first books were written by Moses,thousands of yrs before Jesus was born.The last book was written by John on the Isle of Patmos.
The Bible says "God inspired men to write the words written in the form of a scroll!So we know what is written is what God wanted written.Are there a few errors from copiest over the yrs,yes but it doesn't change the meaning of what God wanted written.
That is why the scripture says "the word of God is alive and exerts power"
Jesus also condemned the pharasies for trying to invalidate his Fathers word by their traditions.I am not one to believe Jesus is God but that his Father is the almighty God.

God doesn't only speak through the Bible. Wow, would He be limited if He could only speak through the Bible! He speaks through the Holy Spirit in our hearts and spirits.

According to the Bible His Holy Spirit guides people but it does not speak.He has spoken to us through His word the Bible and in it contain enough information to worship Him the way He wants to be worshiped and also to gain life.

Again... the bible was neither written by Jesus or God. And Jesus is God's Son, like we are His Children. We are all Children of God. Jesus is one of his Children, who was sent to show God's examples of love. However, being human, and growing up in a society where the Old Testament was accepted, Jesus accepted the old testament because he was raised as a Jew. Jesus was human. No one is perfect, and people stick to what they are taught and learned... so did Jesus.

The bible was written by his apostles. Not Jesus himself even, and most certainly NOT God. And as you said, the first testament was written by Moses, a man. Again, NOT written by God himself...

They may have been inspired by God when writing it, but it still was not written by God. Hence there is a tendency to human error, and human based biases based on their culture and styles of living at the time, etc.

God has said that He has made sure that His word is available to humans so He has protected the Bible to continue to be made available.Jesus himself said that his Fathers words would never perish but will last for eternity.So here we are thousands of years later and the Bible still intact and people still get great direction from the Holy Bible.
The Bible's message still remains accurate even if you find a passage here or there that differs.It doesn't change the meaning nor what God wants us to know.You just don't know your Bible that well so it is easy to discount it.

4 More Responses

Hey, you know you can't win with these guys! I guess it's kind of cool and hip to think you are an angel these days. Angels have become a big part of the pop culture.<br />
But, believe it or not, I am growing horns! Every time my religious humor pops up, they grow a little. Seeing that some of these people are going to judge me as "wrong" anyway, ( no matter WHAT I say ), I may as well get some fun out of it.

Holy crap! I'm not even gonna read all these ridiculous comments. Snow, let me tell you something. Here is what I see in your vision. You are right, christians are chained to their "holy book" they call the Bible. It is in fact NOT the word of God. The book of John says that Jesus is THE word(everything was created with words), the bible is just his WORDS. The bible is made of paper, I can burn it, **** on it and call it names, but I won't burst into flames for it. There is one thing I would like to point out though. Most religions really DON'T work with one another. You really do have to pick one or the other. If you worship Brahma as the one supreme creator, you can't also worship Ra or Jehovah at the same time for the same position. No man can serve two masters. And yes, those aforementioned gods are all different. I know that universalists want to unit all of them, but they are all different. You must use your common sense to pick out which one(s) you think are worth it/real/good. Dare I say, use your wolfish instincts :) Hope that this letter does not offend. And I hope you are doing well.

Oh, and I'm glad to see that you understand the reality of the "wolf situation". I knew that something was going on with you from what you told me about having a "wolf half" and whatnot. What I've come to understand is that I have a wolf like personality, not that I AM one. Although, I do rather FEEL like a "lone wolf" a lot. But what I learned from these wonderful animals is this: A lone wolf is neither happy nor healthy. Wolves love other wolves, and take care of each other. SO I need to be around other people and socialize as much as I can to stay healthy. I need to apply THEIR behavior to my everyday life, with other humans. I wish you would give some kind of testimony on that wolf group, might wake some of those kids up.

Why most those gods be different? Perhaps it's different people's in different cultures way of recognizing a Higher Power. Not that that Higher Power has to be different - just called by different names.

I am not saying you cannot pick one or the other. What my vision basically was referring to was He wanted people to at least come to an understanding of one another, and their different views, opinions, etc. Religion is one of the many things that has separated mankind. He understands that people have different opinions on Him. But what he at least wants to see is the Wars between Religions and Demoninations of Religions (namely Christianity since it is one of the few religions to have such things as Demoninations) to come to and end, or at least improve. It saddens Him to see people use Icons like the Bible to bash others for their beliefs, simply because their views differ from theirs.... It is not just Christianity though. It has happened in other religions across Milennia. I asked specifically about the Bible though, and that is why it depicted that in the vision. And as Brieks said, these gods could be just different representations of the same God, just with a different name. The only difference is HOW they depict Him.

I want to quote from the Bible itself, saying how we are to spread the Love of God himself, and not of hate and segregation of religions or because of differences between each other. For we are ALL Children of God. Hence, the Lord speaks of not judging others, and do not condemn them for what they believe. Instead, love and understand, and tolerance at best, lest ye be judged yourself:<br />
<br />
Matthew 7:1-5: "“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."<br />
<br />
Ephesians 4:15: "Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,"<br />
<br />
Luke 6:37: “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;"<br />
<br />
Romans 14:1-13: "As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ... "

I'm confused.

What are you confused about, exactly?

UPDATE:<br />
<br />
I have not been able to talk to God regarding these matters as of Late. He has asked me to just stay out of it for now, and leave it in His hands. He sees how hurt I am and how hurt everyone else is by this situation, so He asked me to back out of it for now. He said He does not want to see anyone else hurt by this. I also felt HIS TEARS as He spoke..... the sadness in his soul as he talked to me..... I never felt the sadness of God in such a way as I did just the other night. :( Since then, it seems like I have had problems reaching God directly. I will keep you informed as to what I hear from our Father...<br />
<br />
Love, Peace and Light,<br />
<br />
Crystal

@SnowCrystal<br />
<br />
Maybe you just felt a little bit powerless BECAUSE YOU ARE JUST HUMAN, any one of us can BE TEMPTED to be this way - it lies deep in yourself - the darkness within ONEself - we all sometimes fell prey to our own dark sides THAT WANTS POWER, to be COOL, SPECIAL and kings and queens, to be popular in the world etc.<br />
<br />
If you do not forget your place before God then your pride will never consume you - when you know your place before GOD being humble, you get much blessings each day if you relate to others on an equal level like God loves us all the same... yet if we follow our pride and are closed off to others, closing our HEARTS to others - only concerned with the self, then we will get empty of soul day by day!

@Brieks<br />
<br />
Don't let this bother you, we ain't converting no one that doesn't want any saving... Jesus said we should scream the Truth from the rooftops OUT LOUD AND CLEAR, yet some will never look up nor hear - don't feel bad, can't you feel the good brimming off this post? God is here through us to those (and us) that really wants help - they will look n listen, don't mind the arrogant rest!<br />
<br />
@snowy<br />
<br />
I like how you put it that 'the demon' you felt was stronger than the WOLF... <br />
<br />
But do remember that a wolf is different than a material god - a wolf is not driven by EGO, it is driven by nature... no man is MORE OF A BEAST than s/he who indulges in MATERIAL GREED.<br />
<br />
The wolf only takes what it needs, it doesn't kill the entire herd of sheep at ONE TIME for their skin and wool FOR MONEY AND TRADE.<br />
<br />
It kills only what it NEEDS TO EAT FOR BASIC SURVIVAL - IT doesn't kill like man, for the FATTY GREED...<br />
<br />
Man kills wolves and their puppies to extinction - which do you think is MORE OF A BEAST? He that kills nature or He that lives in nature?

I did not say it was stronger than the wolf. I was fooled into believing I had a wolf side to me, or that I was a "wolf incarnate" and incarnated from a wolf. I even had vivid "memories" of a life as a wolf and being killed by poachers. The thoughts were to make me feel more isolated and not understanding of humans. I felt alienated at one point, for I felt "too different," and it made me feel more alone and depressed than ever. What I had was not OF GOD. If I was a wolf incarnate, I would not feel alienated from other humans.

Even if I was incarnated from a wolf, it would have not caused me to feel so desolate and alone. I felt separated from humanity. That is NOT what God is about...

The wolf has nothing to do with the scenario. It was a DEMON that fooled me into believing I was a wolf incarnate..

In actuality, though, whatever the demon tried to pull had the REVERSE affect on me. :) It at first succeeded in making me feel isolated, but I kept on LOVING GOD and used it to PRAY TO HIM MORE to find out the TRUTH. I felt I drew closer to God because of it. Over time, the demon's hold on me weakened, and the wolf side slowly started to disappear. My love and compassion was stronger than the demon's hold on me. It drove the demon to hide inside of me for a long time, and only show at times to attempt to take control again later, until eventually I no longer felt it inside of me.

It's so cool how the Enemy's plans are thwarted by God's Love, Light, and Power. I'm sure it p!sses the enemy off to know that in trying to go against God, in the end, he can do nothing except bend to God's will.

@Brieks <br />
<br />
People are only sincere in false beliefs pertaining to self-Divinity as far as the EGO takes them, the EGO is not the true self, many fool themselves just fearing to be just like everyone else... they lie to themselves and become sincere when they start to believe their lies as Truth - that is pathologically disturbed liars.<br />
<br />
@snowy<br />
I really don't think that you only felt the 'demon' targeting one individual - I believe it is more of a collective 'thing/entity/belief' that has thousands fooled in the same way... I would call it the collective 'super-ego' of mankind, where all men are subject to indulge in narcissistic self-grandeur, worshipping themselves and their OWN DIVINITY above GOD'S.<br />
<br />
... they are like 'fallen angels' mad at themselves because they know they can never be GOD, yet they do try - they know there is NO FAKING IT UNTIL YOU MAKE IT, because they can play God all they want, but they will never be God.<br />
<br />
And most of all - they ARE ALWAYS ANGRY BECAUSE THE REAL GOD AIN'T GETTING OUT OF THE WAY, to let them be 'gods' - God is always there to pester them, to make them realize that HE IS GREATER THAN THEIR 'self-proclaimed divinity of the majesty Ego' - they hate it when their lies get humiliated, when the Light of Truth comes to shine in their darkness - exposing them - they ALL HATE IT, that is why they are angry - they refuse to submit to God, they are always having 'fun' being their own 'gods' instead.

What I felt.... it was almost like feeling SATAN himself. I am beginning to wonder if maybe it WAS Satan himself. I talked to it as Satan, and that is when it responded to me, and I cast it away from me in the name of God...

Satan has taken many guises. What I felt could really have been the king of the underworld himself... and he HAS FOOLED MANY with his trickery. I believe it is the work of Satan, and what I felt and who came to me was Satan himself. Mind you, this is the FIRST time I have encountered Satan himself.... so if it indeed IS him..... well, it was not very pretty. Oddly, I felt more powerful than it because I have God's love. I have God's grace so I know he/it could not touch me. Yet at the same time I felt POWERLESS to stop it/him. :(

Something happened when I was at work today....<br />
<br />
I felt the DEMON that is fooling Jophiel. It approached me today, angry.... it was the most horrid thing I ever felt. I not only felt its evil, but I could feel the crying out of the SOULS of the people it has hurt. The souls of the people he fools and lies to, as the souls cried out to God.<br />
<br />
I tried to cast it away, but it is a powerful entity.... stronger than most demons I have faced. Stronger than the demon that fooled me....<br />
<br />
It will not go away easily. I just pray that God will deliver Jophiel from it....

PMing you with thoughts...

I tend to believe people are sincere in their beliefs, until faced with evidence otherwise. Even so, it can be very easy to be blinded. That includes those who say they are angels. I DON'T BELIEVE THEM, but that does not mean they can't be sincere in believing they themselves are. No one likes being told they are wrong, and anger just shuts doors. Anger itself is not wrong, and when faced with things you see to be false, it's hard to not be angry. I think one of the keys is speaking calmly, appealing to emotion and to reason, which is hard to do at times, especially when angered, and I have failed to do so myself. <br />
Just like they're not "converting" us to their beliefs by anger and telling us we're wrong, neither can we expect to "convert" them by the same means. <br />
I DON'T know what to do -- this whole thing has been nagging at my conscience and really bothering me -- so all I can do for now is think about it and pray about it and consider my own words whenever I speak and keep my actions in check.

This is not A FIGHT, BUT SIMPLE COMMON SENSE....<br />
<br />
IF we really want to help others, we should be willing to POINT OUT THEIR FAULTS TO THEM, no matter how bad they may receive our words...somewhere deep down the bells will ring...the Truth first p!sses you off for a while before it really makes sense and brings peace to you!

Here's a link to that story:<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Am-An-Incarnated-Angel/1852720" target="ep_blank">EP Link</a><br />
<br />
And the comments exchanged between brieks and I:<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Am-An-Incarnated-Angel/1849758" target="ep_blank">EP Link</a><br />
<br />
Worth the read! About the RELIGION AND ONENESS OF ALL.<br />
<br />
I AM NOT MAD AT YOU, I UNDERSTAND *PEACE TO YOU AND THANKS ONCE MORE FOR POSTING THIS DIVINE MESSAGE*

@snowcrystal<br />
<br />
I am not using the Bible as my authority here, but the simple COMMON SENSE, that the ROOT OF ALL EVIL IS LIES....<br />
<br />
Some would pat people on the back when they DO EVIL... and that ain't doing any good... in a previous story of mine I wrote about how they USE THEIR DIVINITY AS AN EXCUSE to exclude others from the ONENESS OF GOD... because they are "angels" they must be better than anyone else right... and they must know more.... now men filled with pride DO AND WON'T HESITATE TO HURT OTHERS believing their own lies of self-importance, like the typical hypocritical Christian, who will believe he is right no matter what, because the BIBLE AND HIS "ANGELIC" STATUS IN SOCIETY because he is a "christian" and a high up member of society and member of church - - makes him and the world give himself a GREATER GRANDEUR OF SELF, than what is really necessary.<br />
<br />
Because they CALL THEMSELVES "ANGELS" like in the biblical sense - - they are USING AND ABUSING THE BIBLE to think they KNOW ALL, giving them the right to abuse people in "GOD'S NAME"... I AM NOT USING THE BIBLE OR GOD HERE, BUT SIMPLE TRUTH... it is a fact, that some religions are used to make men think they are MORE SUPERIOR than other humans, regardless of claims of unconditional love for all humanity, as the Christian cannot even tolerate a Muslim or Buddhist etc.... so the "angels" think they are the CHOSEN and better than others BECAUSE THE BIBLE TOLD THEM SO....that is a lie.<br />
<br />
I am not harassing them, but only putting this in GENERAL, about how RELIGION can make man loose himself in self-grandeur at cost of others....this is psychology, this is common sense, this has nothing to do with GOD but simple logic.<br />
<br />
I am not religiously intolerant of them USING GOD... I am just making a reasonable observation of what RELIGION IS CAPABLE OF DOING TO MEN....when everyone is following the EXAMPLE OF JESUS, then all men think they ARE GODS... JESUS SET THE EXAMPLE...HE WAS MAN.

Jesus did set the example. We can all try to follow His example, but we ALL fall short. The Son of God chose to become the Son of Man to show us, but still only He can fill His own perfect position -- we are lifted up by His Grace. None of us is perfect in our own self, no matter how hard we try.

RE SNOWCRYSTAL<br />
<br />
I simply answered your question - - do not PUT THE BLAME JUST ON ME... because by saying THAT I AM ATTACKING THEM, you deny THAT YOU DID THE SAME... and basically you are acting just like the Hypocritical Christian in your vision... I was not harassing anyone, pointing out their faults - - a true Christian would do that... and won't sugarcoat the Truth... if anyone wishes to improve AND grow of soul, even I, would appreciate it if they would tell me the Truth as it is... I won't make excuses for things that ARE AS THEY ARE...BECAUSE IF YOU DO THAT then you are only helping them in their evil...cluttering their minds all the more.

I am not trying to put the blame on you. Or on anyone. I admitted my faults. I did not intend to attack, but I know I probably came across that way when I was posting on his story. I admit to what happened..... and how am I acting like the hypocritical Christian? By letting them find God themselves? You told me yourself I cannot save those who do not want to be saved, and they will continue what they do anyway, so I am going aside to leave them be, but yelling at them is not going to resolve the issue of them being clouded by the Devil's ways.

You are right, they are clouded by the tricks of the Devil. They are just human. I wish they could see that. But I cannot FORCE them to believe. I can only enlighten them, tell them as is. It is still their choice if they wish to remain clouded or come back to God's light.

I am not assisting them with anything. I have been in their shoes... when I thought I was a wolf incarnate. I was awakened, but I was awakened on my own. Like them, I was clouded by the devil's trickery and works. I believed I really WAS what he fooled me into believing. It even went as far as being able to bark/howl/growl like a wolf without my control. I had my own inner demon that just fed me lies, and convinced me I was something other than HUMAN.

Eventually, I started to see the Truth. God's light showed the way. No matter how hard it tried to separate me from HIM, I kept my faith, and my love of God, and over time it just VANISHED.

I just pray that one day the same will happen for them. If they wish to hear me out, I will reveal to them the Truth. The truth of the Devil's lies, and I will cast it out of them, if they so wish. But the person must be willing to receive, or it will all be in vain.... ;(

Thank you for sharing this...those who want to learn from you will...

Please just stop the fighting..... posting it here is not going to do anything but do the same things they were doing to us. :/ I appreciate your kind words, Gothic, and I do appreciate all that you are doing to try to show them the Truth, but hating on them is doing no better than the very thing they were doing to us. Instead, let them live their lives, and let them continue to lie to themselves and others if that is what they wish. Hopefully one day the Truth will become clear to them as it has to us already.<br />
<br />
Seraphina has shown compassion and understanding, and did not automatically defame me here as Jophiel did. I commend her for being so kind and caring, and I thank her for that. But defaming them for what they believe they are is basically doing the same thing Jophiel did for defaming me for my vision and what I believe. So please, let's bring it to an end, and instead show them light out of the darkness. Let's be a representation of God's love and understanding. Hating on them is no different than them hating on us. Loving and understanding one another will bring us all closer to HIS light, and one day their eyes will open and see the Truth, and rid them of whatever ungodly things clog them from fully reaching Him.

you can say ALL THE PRETTY THINGS ABOUT SEREPHINA, but she is still calling herself an "angel" willfully leading others astray with her lies, giving others the green card to follow her example lying to people... a true Christian won't let the lie prevail, by patting them on the back, focussing on their good points only, because by calling themselves "angels" they are blaspheming the all that is REALLY SACRED....and believe me IF YOU ARE A CLEVER LIAR LIKE THEM, THEN YOU ARE NOT SACRED... and should be prevented from telling lies to lead others astray and MUST BE HELPED RIGHT INSTEAD.

RE SNOWCRYSTAL<br />
<br />
YOU SAID:<br />
<br />
Reply by SnowCrystal Oct 28th, 2011 at 9:58AM<br />
Mind you, I believe in equality of everything: all creatures, humans and non-human alike, but point being, is that there is NO reason, even if they ARE angel incarnates, as to why they should deem themselves higher than the normal human.<br />
<br />
I SAY:<br />
<br />
Everyone will believe as they choose, everyone will tell lies when they can... because everyone wants to be SEEN AS SPECIAL OR DIVINE... and as you said: GOD MADE ANGELS BOW BEFORE HUMANS, AND SATAN DIDN'T WANT ANY OF THAT.<br />
<br />
So if they BOW TO THEIR ANGELIC NATURE FIRST before their HUMAN NATURE, then they are DOING EXACTLY WHAT SATAN WANTS THEM TO DO... they want to be more Divine than what they really are... because that GIVES THEM MUCH PRIDE with no regard for humility and it gives them A GOOD EXCUSE TO DISREGARD the Divinity in other souls when they "say they are not angels" giving them the green card to ABUSE AND HARASS THEM.... yes... like the hypocritical christian, when you say that YOU ARE A SINNER LIKE A NORMAL HUMAN, then you are discarded, because in the Christian faith everyone are given the right to think they are 'PERFECT LITTLE ANGELS" EVERYONE HAS FAULTS EXCEPT FOR THEM... PRIDE IS THE FALSE CHRISTIAN'S DOWNFALL TOO... When they deem themselves higher than other people, like a normal sinful human with faults, they act like these "angels" who use their "divinity" as an excuse to harass people WHO ADMIT THEIR FAULTS, because certain people live in DENIAL OF THEIR FAULTS....and others who admit it are seen as SATAN... LOL... this perfectly links to your vision though - - think about it, it is true as can be!!!

re serephina<br />
<br />
you said<br />
<br />
Reply by SeraphinaRose Oct 27th, 2011 at 5:42PM<br />
I wasn't attacking SnowCrystal in any way, I believe this just got way out of hand and tried telling BOTH of them to stop, though I did not tell him here but on pm. There is love in his heart, but I guess only me and a few others close to him can see it, I never claimed to be 'love and light' either, I can't claim something as a confirmation when I have not fully achieved that. Everyone contains ignorance of some sort towards a particular subject or group. Religion, race, etc. No matter who or what you are, you will always contain ignorance of something. But hey, as long as we see what our faults are we can try to change them, I am not perfect, that is not an excuse but a clear fact, as with you and everyone else. I am not more special either. I really don't see where you came up with such a quick thought that I believed I was. <br />
<br />
<br />
I am saying:<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Am-An-Incarnated-Angel/1852767" target="ep_blank">EP Link</a><br />
<br />
follow the link, you are also one of the "self-proclaimed" angels<br />
<br />
you said:<br />
<br />
Posted by SeraphinaRose on Oct 27th, 2011 at 5:34PM<br />
<br />
It's true, though lately I haven't seen anyone claim to be more special than anyone else.<br />
<br />
My reply:<br />
<br />
Posted by GothicShadow on Oct 28th, 2011 at 8:22AM<br />
<br />
@Serephina<br />
<br />
Ya right I will pretend I DIDN'T HEAR THAT coming from someone who defends false HIGH AND MIGHTY ARCHANGELS AND FALSE MESSIAHS (Who clearly think they ARE BETTER OR MORE DIVINE THAN OTHERS - even those who claim to BE ANGELS and MORE DIVINE THAN HUMANS) on other people's posts harassing my friends because you and your DIVINE PALS think YOU ARE MORE WISE than anyone else!<br />
<br />
Whatever, and please refrain from commenting on this post if you intend to throw the same sh!t 'but WE ARE SO MUCH BETTER and knowledgeable than they the pathetic humans!'<br />
<br />
-----------<br />
<br />
sorry I do not buy your sh!t, go and try another IGNORANT individual little 'angel', I am so glad you know you are NOT LOVE AND LIGHT, but you STILL BELIEVE YOU ARE AN ANGEL NEVERTHELESS, giving you and jophiel the right to HARASS others... you are clearly NOT AWARE OF YOUR OWN IGNORANCE, you still call yourself and ANGEL, which means you STILL THINK YOU ARE LOADS BETTER THAN NORMAL HUMANS, this is a fact!!!

What is sad, is that the whole reason Lucifer fell as the Angel of Light is because Humans were supposed to be deemed higher than Angels. Because God loved us so much, Lucifer hated us. That is when he tried to rise against God, overthrow him, and was cast down into HELL.

So how then, can you say that an ANGEL is better than a Human?

Mind you, I believe in equality of everything: all creatures, humans and non-human alike, but point being, is that there is NO reason, even if they ARE angel incarnates, as to why they should deem themselves higher than the normal human.

re GothicShadow<br />
I like how you point out how there are multiple people who claim to be the same angel -- proof positive of falsehood on at least one person's part! Plus, like I wrote to SnowCrystal once, I doubt a real angel of God would be walking around going, "Hey everyone! Look at me! I'm an incarnated angel of God!!!!" Angels don't draw attention to themselves -- their purpose is one alone: to serve God. God gets the glory and honor! <br />
(This also just came to mind, and it's not a pretty thought -- there was an angel of light named Lucifer who wanted to be higher than God, who wanted the attention and glory for himself.....that angel of darkness is now known as Satan..... Don't get me wrong -- I'm NOT calling self-proclaimed "angel incarnates" Satan...but I am reminded of the danger of an awful fall when any being, heavenly or earthly, goes against God.)

self-worship is SATANISM, if you think YOU ARE MORE DIVINE THAN THE NORMAL HUMAN, lacking humility then you are serving the majesty EGO... and YES A TRUE ANGEL won't boast about how WISE AND KNOWLEDGEABLE S/HE IS ALL DAY, there is too much work to do for that!!!! THEY ARE SO IN LOVE AND OBSESSED WITH THEIR OWN DIVINTIY AND THEMSELVES... clearly NOT CONCERNED ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE and as here proven not at all giving a damn about other beliefs or people... because they DEEM THEMSELVES HIGHER THAN THE NORMAL HUMAN...and therefore giving them the right to BASH THE HUMAN... pride stinks, you will know them by their works, they reek of pride and self-indulgence!

I did a search, and found more concrete evidence from OTHER EP'ers that proves the segregation of religion and how Christianity and the Bible is used to dictate other religions....<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.experienceproject.com/question-answer/How-Many-People-Believe-The-Bible-Is-Gods-Word--Men-Guided-By-God-To-Write-Exactly-What-He-Wanted-Them-To-Right/352090" target="ep_blank">EP Link</a><br />
<br />
Something that is supposed to be divine and holy and the Word of God would NEVER question the validity of other religions, or condemn them for what they believe....<br />
<br />
There was a Chinese individual who posted on there, and commented how in their country, they are not even allowed to practice their own beliefs...... :( Because Christianity, which has been introduced there, forbids it. :(

there are many accounts of that... some choose to see it and some don't... so true, so sad!!! Giving your vision all the more credibility which the "angels" try to rebuff!

yup read that story about the CHinese who can't practice christianity lest they get immediately executed by the government, not even given the chance to convert back to buddhism or whatever or even deported, just killed, murdered in cold blood for following a different religion than the government...shocking...really opens one's eyes...I guess those who believe in that beliefs are not any better than the christians and the muslims doing the same in their "god's name".

On a more positive note - I just saw on the side of the EP SCREEN: <br />
<br />
"I DO NOT HAVE TO BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE TO BELIEVE IN GOD"

Wait, where did it say this??? I want to see. :)

where the give you groups to choose on each different page load!!!

you will be known by the PEOPLE (GROUPS) you follow!!!

GREAT LET'S KEEP IT THAT WAY!!! LOL<br />
<br />
Once AGAIN, I really appreciated you SHARING YOUR VISION, IN SPITE OF ALL the bitter words some did spew, at least someone TOOK IT TO HEART WITH GREAT APPRECIATION - - THANK YOU SO MUCH. <br />
<br />
*MUCH LOVE AND BLESSINGS TO YOU*

@SNOWCRYSTAL<br />
<br />
EP staff sent me an email saying that "if we fight back we are only contributing to the harassment and stand the risk of our profiles getting deleted" - - after I got my warning because of JOPHIEL.<br />
<br />
Therefore I have blocked HIM so that he can no longer post on my stories, I suggest you do the same SO THAT WE CAN KEEP THE PEACE... OR ELSE HE WOULD ONLY CONTINUE TO HARASS YOU... BY KEEPING HIM UNBLOCKED YOU GIVE HIM A GREEN CARD TO HARASS YOU and for you to waste your energy on something useless... so just ignore him, so that WE DO NOT HAVE TO "HARASS" HIM BACK.

Read my last post on here. He is blocked.... :/

I noticed Jophiel unblocked me JUST to get the last word on a few things, then blocked me again. Hence, I blocked him permanently. And I will delete any postings he made after blocking me, since it refuses to let me reply back now that he has left me blocked. Doing so is unjust behavior, and if he cannot at least give me the dignity to respond back, then he too is getting blocked, and will no longer be able to read or respond to my messages again.... treat me as thy equal as I would to you...

Just forget about the whole thing.... by talking more we are only making it worse, and giving him more stuff to feed on and attack you and me... but he must continue to his attack, he will be reported, for he is so quick to report others, we will see if he continues to harass us, giving us a valid reason to report him too... he always has the habit of falsely accusing others *so totally christian- NOT* saying that they are harassing him when he is doing the harassing... don't worry, he can't see himself... he will walk into a mirror soon and get the fright of his life when he must face up to himself!!!<br />
<br />
I HAVE NOT REPORTED HIM YET, ALTHOUGH I KNOW HE HAS REPORTED ME, I REFUSE TO STOOP AS LOW AS HE DID... BUT IF HE CONTINUES HE WILL LEAVE ME NO OTHER CHOICE!!!

I already reported him a few times. I have not heard from EP yet, though....

Since he deliberately came here, attacked me, and I clearly apologized yet he continued anyway, it left me no choice but to report him since at that point he was just attacking, not defending...

@SNOWcrystal<br />
<br />
Do not bring science or evolution in the picture - - JUST FOLLOW YOUR HEART... evolution and science has nothing to do with what you SAW... you must focus on what you saw and its SPIRITUAL ORIGIN... there is no scientific origin for God's SPIRIT and its ways.<br />
<br />
*peace and much thanks for being so brave to share your DIVINE VISION here with me and others today - those who find fault with what you saw, do not understand at all, so do not even bother listening to their continuous mindless ramble, you know what you saw, if they do not want to know, then it is their problem, not yours, those who must receive the message will receive it*

It was a mess. I cannot even remember how it got to that point to be honest.... he kept asking for proof. I kept providing proof. I was defending what I believed and it got extremely off topic. And he kept attacking. I did no better, since I initially posted on his story, but not in a means to attack. But I saw that it was being taken that way so I backed off. I stopped immediately after I saw what I was doing. :( Then he came here, in a means to "defend himself from being attacked on his story," which was not even my intentions.... and he refused to give up..... and kept coming here until he blocked me

GothicShadow, I like how you put it: "those who must receive the message will receive it." That is true. Reading this story may speak to someone else even in a different way having the vision spoke to SnowCrystal. It's kinda like how 2 people can read the same passage from the Bible and each gets something different out of it, but both get something that applies to where they are at on their own journey. Neither are wrong; both are right -- the Holy Spirit brings out certain things that speak to each person individually, and they both learn their own lessons. =)

I need to clarify this for SNOWCRYSTAL... please do not let JOPHIEL BOTHER YOU ANY MORE.<br />
<br />
Anyone who believes they are an archangel are FOLLOWING NEW AGE BELIEFS of the dark forces of the world - - IT IS SATANIC PRACTICES WHERE THE SELF CAN BE ANYTHING YOU WISH IT TO BE, AS SELF-WORSHIP.... we have many in the angel forum who claim to be the same archangel at once SO NOT ONE OF THEM COULD BE REALLY THE REAL ONE, further no real angel would have time to waste on a website when they are supposed to SAVE LIVES or something... so be wise and do not let him bug you any more!!!<br />
<br />
To worship yourself as more DIVINE THAN THE NORMAL MAN is not CHRISTIAN BELIEF.... therefore Satanic, so him that spew about the bible the whole time is really funny.... he is pretending to be a christian while in reality he is not...

@direwolf<br />
<br />
This must be said - - those who cast stones at people without further thought ARE NOT LOOKING AT THEMSELVES nor adhering to the teachings of Christ, especially JOPHIEL - - if he still has the audacity to use the BIBLE AS AN AUTHORITY TO HARASS PEOPLE THAN THAT IS NOT SHOWING LOVE WHATSOEVER - - JESUS SHOWED LOVE REGARDLESS - - HE SAID: "forgive them for they know not what they do!" also JESUS DIDN'T HIT HIS HARASSERS BACK....OR CRUCIFIED THEM - - IF HE WAS GOD, HE COULD HAVE KILLED THEM IN AN EYEWINK - - AND HE DID NOT, SO jophiel saying that "jesus acted in a way contrary to love and tolerance" is all lies!!! And he is twisting the bible for his purposes - - to justify him harassing other people in THE NAME OF GOD.<br />
<br />
As far as I know, snowcrystal BELIEVES IN GOD, and there is only ONE GOD, to say she is worshipping a different GOD than you while she knows the bible at heart, is only an excuse to harass... for regardless of DIFFERENT RELIGIONS AND FAITHS, there is only ONE GOD, AND ALL PATHS LEADS TO THE SAME SUMMIT...

Thank you, my friend. -hugs- I see that you are only trying to show them the truth of their actions. Let us hope that they can find love and peace in their hearts, and learn to forgive us as we have forgiven them time and time again. I know you want to delude them away from whatever misguided Truth the devil has inflicted upon their souls. When it is not the Truth at all. Jesus is of love, compassion, and understanding.... not of hate and segregation..... Jesus showed compassion to "sinners" as Christians like to call them. Sure, maybe at times he got pissed off, as he did throw the table at his meal, but he was still human..... human nature can provoke anyone to anger. Even Jesus. He was made Man, and thus he was a Man...

I try to follow that which the Lord has shown me and that which I learned from Jesus: love, understanding of others. Am I perfect? No. Do I get angry at times? Yes. But I try to understand, and I want to understand. I dislike it when I feel any sort of hatred towards anyone, which mind you is rare.

And to both Seraphina and Jophiel, and to any "angel incarnate" WHY do you feel the need to be anything other than what God made you? Ok, maybe you do have gifts.... but that does not make you an incarnate angel. And even if you WERE.... that does not make you ANY more or less human than the person next to you. It also does not make you more saved than the person beside you, who could have done many things that you deem are "sinful."

The problem, as my vision mentioned, is people like Jophiel and others show compassion to those they choose to understand, but those that claim anything that they disagree with to the utmost of their heart, they refuse to understand. They are human, though, as are we, and as Jesus said, they know not what they do. Do not blame them for their actions. I understand that they have been taught the BIble as the Word of God for their entire lives, and they take it to heart. I understand how something so precious to them can cause them anger and hurt when somebody places a challenge against it, or claims it is something that they deemed holy for so long.

I DO understand. What I do not understand, yet do understand at th same time, is how they can come here, or to any board, and try to instill their views on others. Claiming it in God's name. Or claim to know what God Thinks, which Jophiel has mentioned to me a few times. Nobody can know what HE thinks. Only the Lord himself knows that. And to claim you know that is calling yourself God....

Too many people act as false prophets. Claim to know God, then instill it on others. Instead of following Jesus' example of love and understanding, they use the bible to see God as a hateful God who only accepts those who follow HIM, and rejects those of other beliefs. That is why I said the book is flawed. Because Man has written it, mind you, 100's of years later, putting in it ONLY WHAT THEY SAW FIT. And people are using this same said book to determine who God is, and what is Right and Wrong when only GOD HIMSELF can dictate that, not us...

Let Him past the first judgement. I will let him dictate whether I am right or wrong, but I am going to continue doing what I believe is Right, and from what I have learned of God from my time here. I will continue to spread Love to all that wish to share it with me. :) &lt;3

AMEN &lt;3

=)
One thing I want to point out about anger --- anger itself is not a sin. It is only what sins can be committed out of anger that give anger itself a bad name. It's not wrong to be angry, and there are legitimate causes for anger. Jesus, the spotless Lamb of God was angry, as you mentioned, and also there is a verse that says, "be ye angry, and sin not", and that shows a distinction between anger and sin. So don't feel bad for being angry. *hugs*

I would ADVISE EVERYONE ON THIS POST - - TO STOP COMMENTING UNLESS YOU HAVE SOMETHING POSITIVE TO SAY - - and by arguing about your beliefs in such a vindictive way as you do, only CONTRIBUTES TO THE HARASSMENT ON BOTH SIDES... unless SEREPHINA AND JOPHIEL do not want to get reported for their HEARTLESS BEHAVIOUR, I would strongly recommend EVERYONE STOP THIS RIGHT NOW, everyone had their say, there is no need to continue the HARASSMENT ON BOTH SIDES... if you do then both jophiel and serephina only prove that they are not "REAL ANGELS INCARNATE" - - but regardless of being "angels" - - JUST STOP IT, BECAUSE YOU TWO "ANGELS" are proving HER VISION TO COME TRUE EVERY SECOND you continue to harass her without even taking the message to heart... YOU ARE ALL GOING OFF TOPIC OKAY... you are just targeting the author, stop it RIGHT NOW!!!

@serephina<br />
<br />
You are another false angel - if you were a real angel you would have known that JOPHIEL won't stop when he isn't listening to GOD but to himself... the very fact that he claims to be more DIVINE than what he already is and harassing and reporting people to EP who tells him he is a fraud, is clear evidence that he is a fraud, only serving his EGO, listening to HIMSELF and definitely not GOD, because A TRUE BELIEVER IN GOD, won't try and get people banned from this site, just because he can't handle the Truth, that he needs to get rid of those who oppose his lies so that he can continue to corrupt with being a conniving bastard... he just wants to get people who see through his lies out of the way, so that he can corrupt further unnoticed - there is no LOVE coming from that vile heart, only intolerance and hatred - if you can't see that then you are just like him, attacking my friend without due fair ground - shame on the both of you and thanks for proving your 'love and light' once more a big sham you two little 'angels' who are nothing but harassers assaulting innocent people with your dark minds of ignorance!

I read the first few comments and then stopped reading because most of them were specifically directed at making you the 'fool' or 'trying to disprove you' - thus all said the same thing and had the same undercurrent and therefore not worth even reading, and believe me you remind me of myself a while back, I have learned that it is futile (useless) to argue with people who think they know everything - for it is usually the 'know-alls' that know nothing at all!<br />
<br />
Please forget about jophiel's monotonous attempts to prove the bible as God's word when it is obviously man-made - take it in your hands and see it is made out of material matter... but there is also no doubt THAT IT WAS INSPIRED by God - man just misused it, they abused 'God's word' to their OWN WILL to control and manipulate men.<br />
<br />
As for the vision, wow, and I do believe you - the Holy Ghost inspired you to view it and share it! You should know by now that God works in mysterious ways - and that the BIBLE IS AN INCOMPLETE DOCUMENT, because till this day God still inspires people with HOLY VISIONS - THE POWER OF GOD'S SPIRIT didn't die when Jesus died, or when the last chapter in the Bible was written - for God's HOLY SPIRIT is ETERNAL and not stagnant in time.<br />
<br />
We are inspired by His Spirit on a daily basis to inspire others to ADMIRE GOD MORE!<br />
<br />
I agree the comments that transpired before this was completely unnecessary - it was meant to inspire and not cause conflict for the message did speak of PEACE in spite of different beliefs, and by attacking AND seeking to hurt you as jophiel did using God's NAME as an excuse he proved the vision 100% ACCURATE.<br />
<br />
Please do calm down, God is with You at this, I myself wrote similar comments in the 'angel group' on taniel's post and a story on this day without prior knowledge of this post, and yes jophiel was the inspiration - I am not going to lie, as he told lou in the angel group that he was a lost man and doomed because he didn't believe in the bible, he told him he was going to hell... now it's funny that a guy who calls himself an 'archangel' which is an obvious lie lacks the KNOWLEDGE OF THE POWER OF GOD'S SPIRIT and yet seeks to harass and attack people in God's NAME... so sad, which also proves his claims of being an 'archangel incarnate' utterly fraudelent, as I have proven him a fraud on various occasions before, his response to this post just further backs it up that he is a big fat cheat!!!

God does cry for them. He is trying to reach out to both of them. Especially Jophiel, as he is the furthest away from Him of those that has written on this story. He continues to try to reach out to him. But Jophiel is just too strung up in what he believes to be right, and in the voices of the THINGS which speak to him which are ungodly, that he refuses to hear the Word of the Lord himself reaching out to him...

My friends.... I need HELP..... please. I just blocked Jophiel. I could not take it anymore.... :( I am hurt. I am angry. I don't like feeling like this.... D; I hate feeling angry and hateful at anyone..... I cannot even stop crying. But I did not want to keep feeling this way so I had to block him so he could not keep attacking me on here. He said he was here to "defend," but what he did was NOT defending...<br />
<br />
This man claims to know God. He claims to know what God THINKS. How dare he claims what the Lord THINKS. NO MAN can claim to know God or what He thinks. It made me so angry when I saw that post... I just had to block him right then and there. I do not like being this angry. VERY few people have made me this angry. The only other person to make me this angry was that girl who went behind my back to hit on my ex when I was still with him....<br />
<br />
I need help because I hate feeling like this..... I need reason. I need to understand WHY he is doing this? I need to understand.... and I understand where Seraphina is coming from, but she has not seen the bad side of him. You have not been in my shoes YET, Seraphina. I hope you never have to.... Jophiel seems to be an arrogant, bigotted man, which is someone I can never get along with. I cannot get along with bigots who claim things, have to have the last word... and claim they are right and everyone else is wrong. He did not come here to "defend". he deliberately made an attack. If you see from my posts, I cried, and apologized, NUMEROUS times. What did I get in return? A shoulder which turned the other way, and he continued to yell at me ANYWAY.<br />
<br />
I cannot stand for this... but I WANT to understand. But I just can't, it seems..... I cannot understand how he can come here, and do the very thing he was against me doing on his story. Mind you, I did NOT intend to attack him at all. When I saw how people were interpretting my comments, I STOPPED. I did NOT want it to seem like I was attacking them. Yet he came here ANYWAY, despite that, and even after telling him over and over I was sorry, and I did not intend for it to seem like I was attacking him or any Christian's beliefs, and that is why I stopped commenting, he comes here anyway.... then proceeds to discredit ANY proof I give, and says that the claims I make cannot be proven when the proof is in the BOOK we call the bible itself.<br />
<br />
And Lixivious, in response to an earlier comment you made, it is not that I hate the bible, I just cannot see it as the Word of God. I do have respect for it. I use it to learn Jesus' teachings, and take from it what I will. But it is not the word of God, because it was written by man. At least that is what I will continue to believe. It is a fact it was written by man and this cannot be discredited when the proof is in the bindings and words of the book itself. The book of David, etc., was written by those men, but then Jophiel says "I have no proof," when all you have to do is open the book and SEE it is written by man. The words did not just miraculously appear on paper....<br />
<br />
Anyway, that is aside from the point..... -sighs- I never wanted to argue. But I kind of expected it from somebody, just not from him (Jophiel).......

I just told you what I was told to tell him. I am just a messenger. :)

And I was asked to bring people back to the real Father.... and show them God's Love and Grace. But my personality is just who I am. I do not need to pretend to be anybody I am not. What you see here is how I really am. Not some pity act or what have you

I think he blocked me. :/ Otherwise I would give the message myself...

Also, him being an apostle is basically almost making Jophiel like Jesus. I am sorry, but whoever or whatever is telling Jophiel this is misguiding him. Please tell Jophiel to be careful. I have the feeling he is being misguided by unholy spirits.... hence demons. :/

It may be why God asked Jophiel to Listen to Him.... I do not think God is able to get through to him due to possibly Jophiel getting a message from a demon rather than God himself..... please have him be careful. I am highly worried. :( This demon is going to turn him into a false prophet...

I have had spirits pretend to be God before. Too many of times. He has to be careful..... and yes, some are VERY convincing..... :/ And you do not always feel their evil. Some hide it well....

From what God had told me, due to Jophiel believing these unholy spirits, no matter how much God tries to speak to him, Jophiel is blocking it out because the demonic influence is taking a hold on him and he is not allowing anything or anyone else in..... he needs to look into who and what he is talking to.

Also remember..... angels can NOT be apostles.... only humans can. This "being/entity" pretending to be God or the angels and telling him he is BOTH and IA and an apostle proves he is being misguided. Please just listen to me.... Seraphina. I am highly worried about him now. :( PLEASE in the name of God..... ;_;

5 More Responses

-wipes back tears- I give up. Maybe I should just delete this accursed story. At this point it has led to further disputes I did not want, and I tried to reason and keep a straight face throughout, but I am about to just break down.... I guess "Jophiel won" but not in converting me, only in making me shed more tears to the point that I give up on trying to enlighten people with my visions, or posting any more religious things on EP at ALL. I am not here to cause arguments. I JUST wanted to enlighten.... and share with you the vision I had to enlighten....<br />
<br />
I feel like a fool for shedding these tears. I love too much.... and it is why I have tried to get Jophiel to just stop this flame war. Yet it will never end, so I throw in the towel. :(<br />
<br />
I feel like Jesus did when his own people lashed things at him for questioning the old testament and challenging it with new beliefs.... "Woe is he who casts the first stone". It looks like Jophiel cast the first stone at me. :/

You cast the first stone in my story over a week ago, how dare you act like the victim when you started it, going on my story in the Christian group and saying that what we all hold most sacred (the Bible) was basically just made up! What did you expect, a pat on the back?
You can't end something by leaving snide remarks about someone like you do in this post, that just opens the door for that person (me in this case) to defend themselves further. If you really wanted this to end, you could have stopped it a long time ago!

*big hugs SnowCrystal* Please don't delete this story. I am sorry it turned out so badly. Don't put yourself down for how you feel -- you are a sensitive person, which can be a blessing but it can also feel like a curse at times because it is so much easier to get hurt. *hugs again* Please feel free to PM me.

I apologized for it 20x over... and stopped posting immediately after I realized what I was doing. It was NOT intentional. And yet now you continue to do it, with full knowledge and awareness of what you are doing... what you are doing is not divine, godly, or just..... it is just wrong..... D:

I will leave it up. I think you are right by what you posted to me on my page. I dare not say it here as certain people may use it to attack me more. And I wrote it to Inspire. I will leave it up.

@SeraphineRose:

Well said.

He has been holding her to a double standard! How is that fair or even okay? She was big enough to walk away from his story and leave her alone when her beliefs differed from his. But he obviously couldn't let it go. He's pretty much telling her she CAN'T love God! How does he know that? He doesn't see inside her. God does though, and He knows the truth.

P.S. If she went back to HIS stories and posted her disagreement, he would call her a troll. I've seen him do it before. But yet he does himself the very things he talks down on others for doing.

My reply to you, Seraphina, is in my comment below. But please tell him this from God for me: "Jophiel, please LISTEN. I have been trying to reach you for awhile now. I am here for you and I love you, but please listen..... My son, please hear my cry...."

After driving home, I stopped by my church and prayed. God wants to speak to Jophiel, but He said that he cannot get through until he opens himself up to Him.

I would love to answer him. But all what transpired her was arguing. I wish I could talk to him about it, and share that kind of stuff with him. I want him to know why I feel the way I do about things, and then listen to his side. We are never going to agree, I understand that. But that is how people learn from each other. We may never agree, but sometimes we can find out more about ourselves through others and what they say to us.

I was not just saying a sob story.... I really was crying. It really does hurt me that all this had to happen....

If he wishes to talk to me, without the yelling, he knows where to reach me. :)

Yet he posts AGAIN on my story. Because I did not have him blocked. How fair is that? That he dare to come here, blocks me, but continues to post on my story ANYWAY even though I can no longer properly respond to him in kind, since he left me blocked?? That is unfair and unjust, and as such he is now permanently blocked.

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AS a research biologist and a student of metaphysics I have learned to question what everyone <br />
calls the truth, I believe there are many truths, and as students of life we should all seek our own truth<br />
and be skeptical of all to claim they have the truth. I believe SnowCrystal when she says she has visions, in the bible it says there will come a time when the young will have visions and the old men dreams, "I may have the phrasing wrong". Those of you who throw a version of the bible in someones face should take a good look at the teachings of Jesus and then look in your own heart<br />
are you doing this for your own glory or Gods? Be kind and try to put some love in your heart and respect the beliefs of others.----- with respect direwolfj >^..^<

Jesus only followed one version of the Bible, and when people disagreed with His version, He would sadly leave them... because by their own actions they had already left him.

No, you said you could prove you feelings about the Bible. That you don't think it is accurately translated or historically accurate. Since there is no proof of what is obviously false, I imagine I will be waiting a long time.<br />
<br />
Oh, and if you post false evidence it is my right and my duty to discredit and disprove them in the interest of truth.<br />
<br />
As far as killing for religion, that was never even the subject of a discussion between us, not that it matters because every religion has done it. But to be fair the crusades were not fought over religion, they were political. Christians are responsible for fewer "religious killings" than most other religions, and atheism has killed the most. If UU supports abortion I could logically argue that you support more murders than any other religion in the history of Earth.<br />
<br />
We also never discussed segregation in the church so I don't know why you are bringing that up except to avoid bringing up what the argument was really about. But I must say here that not just anyone can go to church, you have to follow certain rules laid down by God and Jesus, and if you aren't interested in doing that then you have no business in church to start with. You see there are no different versions or interpretations of the Truth, there is only one Truth, and that Truth is Jesus Christ.

nd there you go... doing the very thing my vision was against. Slapping the Bible in my face, and discrediting any other religion. My vision was about one of love and understanding of each other. Not separation. And I never claimed myself as Christian. I am searching for a Unitarian church at this point, because it is individuals like you who have deviated me away from Christianity, which is sad. I love Jesus, and I love God, but no church of Christianity seems to support my beliefs. Feelings itself cannot be proven. But facts can be. I posted examples of segregation in the Christian church and between different religions, which in part is what part of the vision was about.

*hugs* SnowCrystal. It saddens me too that you don't feel you can call yourself a Christian anymore. =( I would encourage you to not let other people calling themselves Christians make you shy away from letting yourself still take the name, but I am not telling you what to do. Just remember, it's about who Jesus Christ really is and not what humans make Him out to be. I have yet to find a church with whom I can fully agree either, but I have told people I call myself a Christian because of Christ -- not because of what other Christians are or are not doing. Also, like you, I have found myself drawn to UU, because they do not condemn a person for what they do or do not believe. And it is possible to be Christian and take parts of UU too. Again, it is a reminder that we have much to be thankful for that GOD is the Righteous Judge and it's Him that matters. =)

God has never tolerated other religions, never. If your beliefs are not correct regarding God, then there will not be a church for you, because Biblical Truth is the basis for belief in God and Jesus.

*sighs* I'm thankful that you don't have to know what is inside me - you obviously don't know anyway. I believe God and trust Him that He knows my heart, and I look to Him as the Source of all Truth.

You say God has never tolerated other religions. How can YOU claim that??? Tell me how God cannot be tolerant of other religions... let me guess, because the Bible states it is so? You cannot say what God thinks. No man can. This is yet another reason I am against the bible being called the Word of God. Because it isn't. No book, no man, can claim to know the word of God. Let God dictate what he deems acceptable and what's not. How dare you claim to know what God THINKS, Jophiel. Woe upon you, my friend.

God has told us exactly what He thinks, through His Word and His prophets. Even secular historians agree that followers of God in the times BC were very intolerant of other religions, and this was because of what God told them, and He continues to tell us that same message today, for those who are open to hear and understand His Word.

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http://www.experienceproject.com/uw.php?e=1283443<br />
A story I wrote last year, entitled Divisions in the Church. Feel free to read if you would like to; I've been thinking about it again today and thought I would share a link here.

Apparently, Jophiel is asking for proof of my claims. Aside from evolution, what proof are you looking for? I already backed up the evolution claims, which you discredited. As for my vision, it is a VISION. It is not something I can physically prove. I cannot just hook a monitor up to my brain, pray, and have the image displayed on a television screen of what I see...<br />
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Proof of segregation in the church and of Christian demoninations?? If so, I have plenty of proof for that. And there is also proof of what I stated earlier in the Christian board about how Christian ba<x>sed movements caused them to kill people who did not believe what they did, and who "did not choose to follow God as they see it."<br />
<br />
Let me post these references for you, and please do not discredit them as I won't discredit yours...<br />
<br />
http://candst.tripod.com/boston3.htm<br />
<br />
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/atrocities.html<br />
<br />
http://articles.exchristian.net/2002/10/how-many-people-have-been-killed-by.php<br />
<br />
http://www.gotquestions.org/denominations-Christian.html<br />
<br />
http://history-world.org/churchseperate.htm

Good for you Snowcrystal, which bible which god? who is right when we are all most likely wrong.<br />
God is in the heart and not in any sect or bible. The teachings are good and wise and we would all<br />
do well to live by them. take the beam out of our own eye before taking the speck out of anothers.<br />
You go girl and dont let these fools give you grief. they are full of vain and foolish mouthings of what<br />
they have been told without any proof. You continue on your spiritual journey and you will be the wiser and more blessed for it. direwolfj >^..^<

What saddens me, is all this hate has also affected our Lord so much. You have no idea what I have been seeing lately in my visions.... I have continued to have more visions but did not post them here.

I had a vision just the other day, where God showed me, through Jesus' eyes, the same thing that is happening now. When Jews, the same people he grew up with and loved, threw stones at him because his opinions on God and His grace and love differed from theirs. They were stuck on the views of the Old Testament. Yet Jesus challenged it with new teachings, on the love and grace of God, yet people cast him down. WHY? Because it went against everything they were told.

In my vision, I felt Jesus' love and sadness... to the point I broke down. I then felt God's sadness as he showed me the vision, as he continues to be sad from all this hate and segregation. He has tried numerous times to show people HIS love, yet people continue to hate and slander anyway.

I have felt the love and sadness of God.... and the sadness is not a pretty one to feel. I can feel it as we speak.... even my own tears shed as I write this...... ;_;

And that was the point I was trying to get across. God lies within the hearts and souls of every human being on this planet. Yet people use such idols as the Bible to try to find God. Nothing wrong with that, mind you, but the problem that is occurring is people are using the book to slander others. THAT is the problem I have with the Bible. It is not the book itself I have a problem with, but how people are USING it...

People are using the book to decide what they deem right and wrong, and use this against other religions and what have you. They are using it to dictate their lives, which if they choose to do such that is fine, but it is NOT up to us as HUMANS to dicate how other's should live their lives.

I believe in a unity of all religions, and respect and understanding. I believe that one day, we will unite as a people. I do not know if it will happen, but it is something I direly dream of

SnowCrystal -- I am very, very thankful that GOD is the judge! And He know the heart of each person here. Whatever we all may think or not think, He knows. =) Whether you are wrong, whether I am wrong, whether others are wrong, God knows, and no matter what we all might think of each other, it's what God thinks that really matters. None of us know all the answers, but He has them all, and HE is capable of leading us into all Truth. =)

Exactly.... no one here can say otherwise. To say that what I believe is Truth or what Jophiel or anyone believes to be truth is bigotry, and claiming to be God. My intentions here were to enlighten and educate on my vision. Then the arguments started since I posted on the Christian Board of a post Jophiel made. I was not even targeting him but now it has become the very thing I am against...

Actually that is plainly not so, Snow. You have not investigated the truth as I have. You don't even understand the science! I majored in science in college and I know what I'm talking about! Not to mention the historical TRUTH - and there are no "versions" of the truth, only one truth! If you just said it was your belief I wouldn't have a problem with it, but you say you have proof and everyone else is wrong and that is a LIE - whether you lie on purpose or not - you do not speak the truth!

AJ-- you say you have proof and everyone else is wrong. You seem to be no different than what you are accusing her of being.

Except that I actually showed the proof and she didn't.

I did show proof. And Jophiel, this has now apparently become a hate fest for you. It saddens me to see you this angry. Yet I just cannot grasp WHY. Is it simply because I choose to not believe the bible as the literal word of God, and because I can never fully agree with you? If that is the case, then it is best if you leave. We will never fully agree. Every individual is different, and everyone will have their opinion. Also, you continue to discredit any proof I gave and only called yours right, stating mine as not being proof. You then go on to say "I did not provide any proof" when I have TONS of times, but you claim that it is not proof of evolution when it is, then come back to say I provided no proof. That is as idiotic as me saying that you provided no proof, but you clearly have. But what, exactly, has made you so hateful about what I have said here? I am not even yelling or cursing at you, so why then are you? Does my vision bother you THAT much? What ails you, Jophiel? Also, tell me... have you felt God's sadness before? Because it is all I have been feeling for quite some time... His love and sadness.... and it is not a pretty one, and you sure are giving him more reason to continue shedding His tears...

Brieks, at this point it is mostly trolling for him. He is going to remain to continue to discredit everything I say. It has become a hate-fest for him, it seems..... as I mentioned previously. No matter how much "proof" I have already given, he will continue to devalue it, and then later say I posted NO PROOF. He is on here to yell at me, because I go against his beliefs, and also because it just so happened to be his story I started the discussion on. He also posted on here how I do "not know God because I go against "his word," which to him is the Bible...

When I originally posted on his story, I did not realize it was his story at all, until I started reading it more. I replied to a comment on there, and I agreed with a vision he had. Then the whole religious debate started, and I left. Now he is on here to continue defaming me. Which, is basically trolling....

You did not show any proof, you are lying, or ignoring what I posted one or the other. God says the Bible is His literal Word! You don't even believe Him, but you claim to love Him, oh how blind you are! And you deliberately stirring up these flames is what trolling is, so look at yourself before you spread your hate further!

How am I stirring them up? Defending myself is not stirring them up. You choose to believe differently. THAT IS FINE. But you are the only one with a problem with me not believing what YOU CHOOSE TO BELIEVE. Again, this just further proves what my vision was about...... :(

Jophiel, where does GOD say the Bible is His literal Word? (Can't use the Bible, because anyone can write that what they're writing is the divinely dictated Word of God.)

And SnowCrystal is sharing her beliefs, not stirring up flames. It was obvious to someone who didn't even know her that she is HURT by the way things have turned out between her and a fellow human because of what she is convinced is the Truth from God. I don't see hate in her words -- I see pain. She is not telling you what you can and cannot believe, but she is defending herself. You, however, ARE trying to tell her what she can and cannot believe, do, say, or think!

And I am defending my belief, not trolling.
God has said it to many prophets and true followers throughout history. And if you were to study the Bible, you would see that God could not exist if it were not his literal Word.

You are not defending. This is my story. You came here to attack, not defend. That is attacking, not defending it. This is a Unitarian board, and I posted it for those that wished to read it. Slandering a belief or religion simply because it does not tie with yours is herecy. Enough with this...

No, I came to defend, because you talked about me and my story in this story.
If it's enough go ahead and stop.

That is not defending at that point. It is attacking. If I was posting on your story still, I would understand. THEN it would be defending. But coming here to as you put it "defend your honor" is an attack, because I stopped what I was posting on your story. And as I stated previously.... I never meant to seem like I was "attacking you" or anyone for that matter. It is WHY I stopped. I did NOT want it to come across that way. Yet why then, are you attacking me here?

You are constantly insulting me and playing the victim and I have every right to come here and defend myself.

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Jophiel -- To say that SnowCrystal is making a self-righteous clam is to be putting words in her mouth that she did not say. She has scientists and historians who back up what she says, and you have scientists and historians who back up what you say, so you are doing the same things you accuse her of doing. But naturally, she isn't going to believe you, nor are you going to believe her, because your beliefs are different, and no one is going to believe something if they are not convinced of its reality. Making her feel bad is not going to "convert" her to whatever you believe.

No she doesn't! NO historian would back up those claims about the Bible, they are ridiculous! And science is divided at best on the issue. The thing is I actually backed up my beliefs with proof and she did not!

NO historian, eh? Not a single historian in the whole entire world. That means all anyone would have to do is find one single historian to prove YOUR statement false. But, methinks you have your own definition of what proof is.

No reputable historian would be my meaning. All the top scholars in the field agree on this.

Why read the Bible at all?<br />
<br />
Words, your words, that set the tone and direction of your position. These were taken from your story only and not from subsequent posts in this thread:<br />
<br />
- I cannot call a book written by so called "disciples" as the Word of God.<br />
- I use the Bible to learn about Jesus' life and teachings, and take with it what I will...<br />
- The book of Michael, etc. is written by THOSE DISCIPLES.<br />
- It is why I can no longer truly call myself a Christian....<br />
<br />
Maybe your path to God is a different one and Christianity, as in the last statement, is not for you. <br />
<br />
Again, it's about the message, and not the static surrounding it. Jesus entrusted His disciples to spread His message after His departure. He believed in His disciples and I'm sure didn't think of them as --so called 'disciples'-- as you put it, when He entrusted them with such a monumental task.<br />
<br />
If you're able to pick up the Bible and learn of Jesus' life and teachings, and if you connect with those teachings, and attempt to live your life congruent to those teachings; haven't you not received the word of God? Couldn't you also say those disciples, tasked with spreading the Word, were successful? I think so.<br />
<br />
Another observation: You acknowledge our Father by capitalizing any references in your writings, that is good. What I find confusing is that you continue to capitalize the word "bible" even though you appear to have a bit of disdain for it. Is there a bit of underlying respect for the the Bible that you haven't relinquished yet? If not, then go ahead and drop the capitalization, no need to not stay true to your beliefs.

I am not going to keep posting on here JUST to dispute with Christians who obviously just want to flame what I posted here.... I wrote here to inspire, not argue. Arguing is going to get us NOWHERE. Because you guys will continue to be prejudice in your own beliefs. No matter how much PROOF I post, you will continue to believe what you do. That is fine. But do not come here and create an argument, then. I am willing to listen to other opinions, but not if we can at least dispute things and listen to what each other has to say, without just automatically defaming what the other person said.<br />
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The message was a message about love and understanding, in my vision. We need to return to that, and not continue to hate and defame one another simply because we have different lifestyles, points of view, etc. But because my "vision" seems to discredit anything the bible claims, and not only that but goes against the bible itself as an Idol, then I will continue to get flamings from those that confide in it.<br />
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I was not here to create an argument. I guess next time I will keep my "visions" to myself. i was hoping to INSPIRE, not create these flame wars. These flame wars just prove everything my vision showed me... the segregation of people from God's Love and Grace, and loving each other as God's children with love and grace, and instead using the Bible to dictate what is Right and Wrong, and using it to defame each other and slander at anything others believe....

No. I am not saying I am not prejudice. I am saying that because you guys will not even consider what I am even saying... that we will continue to argue. I am not going to force my beliefs upon you, or what have you. I was just arguing my case as to why I believe what I do. It is like telling a Muslim they cannot believe in Ala and have to believe in Jesus. You will lose the battle. Why? Because people are going to choose what to believe, and stick by their beliefs. There is nothing wrong with that. But telling somebody they are damned for what they believe is NOT right. Let them believe what they want and let God judge them.

I am tired of arguing with you, Jophiel. You seem to be the only one on here arguing with me. You came here, caused an argument, and continue to argue. Why can't we just move past this and learn acceptance of each other or at least tolerance? :/

Why keep me added if you are so sickened by me? :( Apparently all I do is make you hate me more. So why keep me as a "friend" if I anger you that much? :/ I readded you cause I thought we were friends. But Jophiel, my friend, if we are even friends because at this point I fail to see you as such.... I am afraid that you are not an angel incarnate. I know you think you are, but you aren't.... one of God's Angels would NOT hate on somebody so much because of something another person believes....

You are human, just like the rest of us. And there is nothing wrong with that. You are human. You argue, get angry at things that go against beliefs.... that is human nature. Something of divinity would not get so angry at such matters, but try to at least understand.

I want to understand you, and it is why I kept you added as a friend. I WANT to come to an understanding with you. If that is impossible, then I am sorry.... I am sorry my opinions cause you such hatred and disdain. I am sorry that we must disagree so much that it causes us to argue and causes you such hatred against me.... :(

I am also afraid me telling you that you are not an angel incarnate will cause a flame-war.... which I fear it more than likely will with you... :(

I don't hate you, I hate your attitude about this. You have made no effort to come to an understanding only ranting about why anyone who disagrees with you ****** you off. Several other people have confirmed that I am IA. And you clearly have no knowledge about or respect for divinity whatsoever. Angels in the Bible do God's will, and that is what we do on earth. If you think that God doesn't get angry about people calling His sacred Word BS then you don't know the first thing about Him!

Other IA's telling you that you are an IA is not proof of you being an IA. Let GOD HIMSELF show you whether or not you are an IA, not other individuals. Pray to HIM. And be open to his Word, Love and light.

I pray, Jophiel, that if anything I said here is wrong, please let the Lord show us the truth. Let God dictate what is right and wrong. I pray that He shows both of us the Truth.

I will pray, that he shows you, beyond what delusions may be holding you from the Truth. Be open to anything, Jophiel, but also pray to keep those that seek to thwart you from the Truth away. Pray to keep the demons that wish to separate you from God away.

Let me know if you have any visions from God. It is what I have done, and that is how I received my visions. I ask you to do the same thing. Be open to God and his love, and let Him show you the way, the truth, and the light to Him. But keep and open heart and soul when you do.

Let me know, if he says if anything I have said here is wrong. And I do not mean the talk about evolution, but mostly what I mentioned in the story about how he is sad to see the separation and segregation of these religions and how we are using the Bible to slander others and hate upon them. How we use it to play God and dictate what is right and wrong. Let me know if you feel his sadness as I did, or if you see something different. Then come back to me.

Also, ask HIM if you are an IA. Let God show you the truth. He loves you and is here to show you his love, grace, and understanding. So let Him in...

God Himself has. And God always dictates right and wrong. The problem is you claim to believe in Him, but not His Word! You know I have visions from him, you have commented on some that I have posted. You don't understand His Word and refuse to even accept it! If you loved Him as you claim you would believe His Word! You are asking me to do what I already do every day, you don't even know how to hear His voice...

So you say you DO know how to hear his voice and I don't??? That is just bigotry again. Enough with this bigotry act.... it is sickening. So how can you say I did not hear His voice and you did?

Jophiel, I do not know what you have told your friends about you, but you are not the man you make yourself out to be. You are an individual who always has to have the last word, and refuses to accept any one else's ideals when they conflict with your own. As long as they do not challenge your own ideals, you accept them, but as soon as they do, you slander and accuse them of things.

I know you see the Bible as the Word and that is fine, but I am going to stick to what I believe. That does NOT make me any less faithful to God, nor can you tell me I do NOT love God simply because I choose not to see a bible written by Man as His word. What you choose to believe is fine, but do NOT, I repeat, do NOT come here and tell me I am ungodly and must believe in the truth that YOU believe to be true.

Everyone is going to have their different opinions, but do not lecture me on mine, and I won't on yours. I am here to defend myself on my vision. This is my story, on a UU board mind you. And honestly, I believe a vision over what I was 'taught' by Christians or what I have read from the Bible. I felt more inspired by that vision than any words inscribed in a book.

But that is just me. And remember - JESUS challenged the Old Testament with new beliefs... he too challenged what you would call the old testament that is included in the Jewish Hebrew Bible. Jews went against him when he shared with them his "discussions with Our Father and his Visions," and tried to spread his teachings to people who would listen. They deemed him a devil, a person who was not of God but of evil, and hated how he dared try to change what they believed in. In turn, he got crucified on the Cross.... by the very people who he loved and adored. But because His opinions differed from what their old Hebrew Bible mentioned, well, you get the drift. So why, then, are you casting down everything I am saying, and condemning me and calling ME unholy for it, when it is the VERY thing the Jewish people did to Jesus when he shared with them God's grace and love, and the words and visions he had received??

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So, through all the nearly two thousand years of translations, mistranslations, new translations, revisions, editing, rewording, additions, subtractions, "new" old manusc<x>ripts found, etc., which version of the Bible do you think is the most accurate, and why?

I posted a reply to this but it either didn't go through or was deleted?

Anyways, the short version is that the Bible is the same today as 2000 years ago, this is a known fact among Bible scholars and historians, except paraphrase Bibles of course.

Which version is more accurate? In what sense? Because a lot of what was written has been disproven... especially in regards to the old testament. It is stories, to me, and nothing more. The New Testament is more about the teaching of Jesus Christ, and the message that he was trying to portray. In this case, the original documents are the most accurate. This does not mean they are not flawed, however, as it was man's interpretation and recitings of Jesus' teachings, which mind you, remember, anything from a third-party source is going to be FLAWED. Unless it comes straight from the horses' mouth, it is not the word of Jesus OR God. Because it was written by these men, these third parties. Probably the least accurate is the compilation we call the Bible itself.

In all honesty, I would LOVE to read the original documents... all of them. But that would be nearly impossible. The Bible is merely a book compiled of those excerpts of scripts from the original documents of whoever compiled it deemed should go into the book we call the Bible. Yet another reason it cannot be seen as the literal Word of God. Not only was it third-party written (the original documents), but it was again broken down and excepts and sections of documents were taken and put into the bible, while the rest were left out....

There are many different versions of the Bible -- some seem to make the message clearer; others add to confusion or make it very easy to misinterpret what is written. Plus, there are whole passages that are accepted in some versions, but in other versions, are put in more of an appendix.

SnowCrystal -- I would definitely like to read the original manuscripts too. As far as I understand, we have NONE of them. The best we can do is go back to the oldest known, and then trust the translator for an accurate translation of what is written there.

P.S. Just wondering, did you get the PM I sent you a few days ago, SnowCrystal?

We do have original manuscripts, and nothing has ever disproved anything in the entire Bible.

Where do we have the originals? -- the very material that the hands of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, and Peter touched, or whoever was writing for them.

Supposedly the Vatican has them hidden.

And this is only what I heard. Do not flame on me as you have been, cause this is only based on rumors

We do, and we have several from their time period, not just one. There is more historical documentation and evidence for the early Bible than there is for alexander the great and julius ceasar combined, and no one disputes them as being fact, despite the fact that the earliest record of alexander came 200 years after his death and the early Bible is from within 6 years of the events.

SnowCrystal -- I realized I never replied to YOUR reply when I first asked about the most accurate version of the Bible. What I meant by most accurate being what is most similar to the original writings.
About the Vatican hiding the originals -- I have heard that rumor too. I think it's possible, but I haven't decided if that's what I think is the most likely case. I have also read we don't have any of the very first writings, only copies.

The English Standard Version is almost identical to the original Greek verbatim. Other versions are nearly as accurate and agree on every important point.

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I have been to those sites in the past, and all of their so called evidence is totally refuted by the sites I linked to. So, again, you are wrong.<br />
<br />
You are right about one thing though - that evolution does not discredit the need for a god. However it does contradict the Bible and therefore cannot exist if the Christian God does. Other gods / religions don't have that same conflict with evolution. In any case that is irrelevant to me because science disproves evolution anyways.

The tip of the "why evolution is false" iceburg (by request, sort of):<br />
<br />
http://archangeljophiel.blogs.experienceproject.com/158033.html<br />
<br />
http://creation.com/what-biology-textbooks-never-told-you-about-evolution<br />
<br />
http://creation.com/15-questions<br />
<br />
http://creation.com/geneticist-evolution-impossible<br />
<br />
Science, that is - ob<x>jective science, actually disagrees with the theory of evolution. Not only is there no proof, but more and more of the so called evidence is torn apart each day. It is so bad to the point that things that are known hoaxes (like haekle's embryos) are still used in textbooks today - deliberately spreading lies to indoctrinate children to believe in evolution, because it would if it were true eliminate the need for a God, and thus free people from morals and judgement.<br />
<br />
The miller experiment is the worst possible example, actually. The 'organic compounds' it produced were formaldehyde and cyanide! Furthermore, scientists agree today that miller had the atmosphere wrong anyway, and have not been able to even get as far as he did - the electricity did nothing. <br />
<br />
No scientist has used the miller experiment as a basis for anything since the 70s.What miller used: he actually used "a hydrogen rich mixture of methane, ammonia, and water vapor". Science magazine said in 1995 that "experts now dismiss Miller's experiment because the early atmosphere looked nothing like the Miller-Urey simulation." But even if his experiment had been accurate, remember what he got? Cyanide and formaldehyde! Proteins would be destroyed faster than they would form (also supported by the laws of thermodynamics).<br />
<br />
Science today is no longer ob<x>jective, and I know quite well and first hand. I majored in geology and paleontology at the University of Montana. Textbooks using the Miller experiment, Haekel's embryos, or any of several other images of evolution that are known to be false are intentionally spreading lies to indoctrinate young people.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090123061645AAYUrdJ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-research.html

Read the sites. There is plenty of "proof" to back up the theory of Evolution, with solid facts.

Yours is just that, a theory. But there are no solid facts, or evidence, to back it up. It uses religion as reason for its validity, which cannot be used as solid evidence. To say modern science disagrees with evolution is false. It is rather the opposite. There are more and more facts proving that evolution occurred. The fruitflies is one example: how a mutation occurred that caused enough of a genetic anomaly that prevented them from interbreeding with the same species they descended from, making them a whole new species.

There is a species of fish, if you read the sites, that formed multiple species incapable of producing viable offspring from the main species of fish they descended from.

The physical and genetic similarities and biological similarities among species and subspecies proves it to have occurred. You cannot discredit something that has had generations of scientific evidence to back it up.

There are going to be continued debates as to what chemicals, etc., we derived from, but the proof of evolution IS THERE. That has nothing to do with disproving evolution existed.

Another thing. Evolution does NOT discredit the need of a God. God made it happen, and he expected it to happen. This has nothing to do with Religion, but because it goes against the old testament and the story of creation with adam and eve, a lot of Christian and Jews wil discredit the idea of Evolution, even with all of the evidence we have to back it up.

The fruit flies didn't evolve, they had a mutation, which didn't even benefit them. I read all about the study, it does more to disprove evolution than to prove it.

Also all of my evidence is scientific, not religious, you obviously didn't even go to the links if you think otherwise.

So do you feel your vision is unbiased? Before having the vision, you already consciously possessed doubts as to the Bible's validity as the word of God. Subconsciously, is it possible your visions are just a way of enforcing what you already believe?<br />
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If this is the case, does that not make your visions any less the word of God. No. Irrespective of how a person comes to the word of God, it doesn't change the fact that it's the word of God. If you've read the Bible and gleaned something of God, then you've received the word of God regardless of all the potential barriers. The message still got to you.<br />
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To nit pick and say the Bible is not the Word of God because "man" wrote it invalidates everything about Christianity. You might as well say Christianity is not the religion of God because it's preached by man. This eventually leads to God is not God because he's made by man.

Double like... especially that last paragraph, so true!

If you believe God spoke to you, why is it so hard for you to believe that God spoke to others instructing them to write the Bible? Is it because it happened to you, therefore it's easier to believe?<br />
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The cornerstone of Christianity is faith: and if ones faith only stretches as far as their own experiences then their leap won't be very far.

I am not saying God did not speak to them. I never said that. I am just saying the Bible is not the word of God... because it was not written by him. These people could have been god-driven, but they are still biased to their own beliefs, leading to fallacies. And a lot of what they believed back then HAS been proven wrong. It is not saying God did not speak to them, or they did not get visions. Just that man is flawed. Beliefs are flawed. I am not saying "I am only right and they are wrong." I am not saying that there are no facts in the bible. Just it cannot be digested word for word as the word of the Lord, because it isn't. Not as long as it is written BY MAN

The heart of him that has understanding seeks knowledge: but the mouth of fools feeds on foolishness.
Proverbs 15:14

Who or what is this in reference to??

Actually, the earliest gospels were written withing six years of the crucifixion, and the entire old testament (Word of God passed on through prophets) was already written before Jesus' time. At least attempt to learn about a book before you criticize it. The gospels and books of the new testament were all about the teachings of Jesus Himself, you would have to be completely ignorant of biblical content and history to say that it is not the Word of God.

the words are God breathed they were written by people that God had given the Word to.

You didn't receive a message from god. You experienced a coincidence. There is no god.

Why would you even post in a religious group if you believe that? Trolling is against the terms of service for EP and will be reported.

How is making a comment trolling? Thankfully in the UU faith there is room for all viewpoints including the view that there is no god. Everything is questioned and discussed

To each their own. I choose to believe in God, and Jesus, based on my own experiences with the divine and evil in life. But that is your choice. But please do not tell me what I did or didn't experience simply because you choose to see it differently. Maybe it was coincidence, but for me it is highly unlikely. Not with all that happened. Please see my comments above if you wish to see why.