At Least We Now Know Who The Enemy Actually Is

This moderate centrist black Christian Democratic President has certainly drawn all the lunatics out of the asylums spewing all the venom they can muster, which is little more than thinly veiled racism, misguided and misinformed trailer park religion, and the very worst of George Wallace nationalism. It's not even a matter of Conservatism versus Liberalism. Hell, Conservatives and Liberals can have a lively and productive political debate because they have the best interest of the country at heart. You guys, however, are nothing more than flag waving Nazis who, if you get your way, will end up making pre WW2 Germany look like a garden spot.

I'd like to remind you, not that it will do any good, that Progressives love their country every bit as much as you claim to, and if we could put up with President George Bush and still be civil about it, then by God you can be civil about this President, who's about as dangerous as a wool blanket on a cold night.



onlinegrandpa onlinegrandpa
310 Responses Apr 11, 2010

I like how you said trailer park religion, this explains more than half the people that dont like Obama. I respect if someone has a different opinion, but most of the things that are said are racial slurs and so forth. If there was a white president that was elected and did the same things as obama, most of the people complaining wouldnt complain at all. Its hard living in texas sometimes.......

Are you kidding? Do you really think the only reason conservatives complain about Obama is because he is black? It is funny how race isn't mentioned in any of the criticisms I have heard about only his policies. As for there being no complaints if he were white, that is so far out of line it isn't even funny. And trailer park religion? Please! What a cheap shot that is. Either defend Obama's policies or refute the criticisms but religion and race have nothing to do with complaints against Obama.

No, they hate him for telling the truth too.

obama is the prince of fools thing wont get better whit the fools can get money from gov.

Things ARE better. Ask the 5 million with new jobs

5 million new jobs...LOL... less the 12 million lost but not the math. It's the same math for unemployment figures. Only counting the ones receiving unemployment and forgetting those numbers that never found Jobs but are out of "benefits".

Why is there such little respect for this President??? I have read rge comments here and I am disgusted by the rude and mean spirited remarks. I can only conclude that racism must be at the root of it.

Obama went on a mad spending binge that put America in financial crisis approaching that of southern Europe, and there's nothing to show for it. The recovery in America has been so weak it's not really a recovery, far worse than the Western countries that did NOT spend like mad, including yours. Obama has been the most divisively partisan president in modern American history. Since Republicans won the House in 2010, Obama has abandoned governing by the law and Constitution and begun ruling by decrees that violate the laws which are still in full legal force. This is unspeakablly dangerous. It is dictatorial behavior for which he should be impeached but won't be because the dishonest liberal media cover for him. And you want to tell us that if only he were white, we would not be wroth about these outrages? That's as honest as saying any male who sharply criticizes feminism or American women as compared to non-American women is a "misogynist." Crying "bigotry" is the last refuge of scoundrels in today's climate. (I'm not calling you a scoundrel, but I do indeed call the people you are imitating scoundrels.)

Yes... decrees he has to make because the Republican filled H of R knows it can make political \'hay\' by forcing him into that position. Your previous Repubican Pres. is the one who squandered your money... Obama is just trying to fill the holes that GW dug. Too bad the American Government doesn\'t want to govern and is putting the burden on one man!

Do the math, he has taken the deficit he inherited and increased it. It is time for Obama to quit the blame game and to start governing.He has been in office for over four years and has only gotten one budget passed.
I do not hold the Republicans blameless in all of this but as president he needs to lead and negotiate. When the sequestration deadline was looming he was on the golf course instead of metting with co-ngressional leaders. He only met with them AFTER the deadline for a settlement (actually the deadline was pushed back one day but that was how the president scheduled it). That is not leadership it is politcal gamesmanship.
I voted for Obama in 08 because he said he was going to end political gridlock but it o-nly got worse. He was also going to balance the budget in three years and it has only gotten larger.
Now we have the mess in syria where the president has drawn the line on the use of chemical weapons. As far as i am concerned he is the commander in cheif of the US armed forces and should use his best judgement to do what is best for the country but so far all I have seen is tough talk and hand wringing. Why doesn\'t anyone see the double standard how Bush was supposed to need the aprroval of co-ngress the UN and probably a note from his mother to take any kind of military action. Now Obama has backed himself into a corner on the use of military force and he sees no problem acting on his own. I thought Democrats didn\'t operate that way.
First the president thought diplomacy could solve everything and when he found out that wasn\'t true he tried tought talk (his was a red line Bush had a line in the sand). Now he is worried it will be another Iraq. He needs to quit sulking and act!

Yes, he\'s in a tight spot with Syria. I\'m not going to say that he was \'set up\' for it, but.... it\'s hard to drain the swamp when you\'re up to your arse in alligators: What would the political view in the USA have been if he had not \'drawn a line on Syria?\" He would have been called \'soft.\' Now the reality is that if he acts unilaterally against Syria that he\'ll bring the USA into another war - I suppose he should just \'hard-line\' it and forge ahead? Those are your sons and daughters and I\'d rather see him eat a bit of crow than do a GW Bush re-entry! On the good side: Perhaps the Arab League can help on this (perhaps not too). It would really help the American people IF: 1/ the USA stopped trying to be everything to everybody; 2/ pulled it\'s horns (make that nose) back a bit and let people govern themselves - Socialism has been around for 96 years now and it only thrives in countries where the poor outnumber the rich - look around yourself. Take care of Americans and your country might thrive again.... but NO! - there\'s a Republican H of R that says that is UN-American! Yes, it may be, but perhaps that 1890\'s expansionist philosophy is just that 120 years too old!
Back to Obama and the deficit: Who was it who when the Iraq war was costing too much decided to let poor people with no cushion of savings buy houses so there would be a larger tax base to cover government costs?
That wasn\'t Obama, was it? When that market crashed who tried to find a solution? Was it the H of R? NO.... it was the Presidency! Yes, the measures are, as you rightly say, \'deficit spending\' - when there is NO MONEY, do you sell the country? What would your choice have been? Yes, he has NOT been successful in getting a budget passed.... but he has proposed them! Who is cutting him off at the knees because they don\'t want any hikes in taxes??? THE RICH??? It certainly isn\'t the poor! Now: look around again.... better yet, look at your \'Corporate America\' (there are bar charts showing the disproportion of wealth) and see where most of the USA\'s wealth is sitting - waiting for a bear market opportunity so it can make a killing while starving you folks in the waiting. Who owns \"Corporate America?\" It certainly isn\'t the poor - and probably not you either!
There are solutions - rewriting the tax laws is one. Where is he going with that suggestion??? It\'s your country, not mine. If it were mine, I\'d still be voting for Obama.

Says the fool who fails to acknowledge that the growth of government is DOWN under Obama

President Bush expanded the National Debt to approximately $5 Trillion in eight years in office.

President Obama has expanded the National Debt from $5 T to more than $16 T, an increase of over $11 T in five years. Well, I guess President Obama clearly won that round, if you can call that winning.

You may want to check those numbers lickitysplit, we have not added 11T since Jan of 09.

Brilliant comment!

I was accused of racism since I am so anti-Obummer. Then the dopey liberals had egg or their faces when they found out I originally supported Herman Cain until he dropped out. Gumshoe is wrong.

It isn't so much the criticism or disagreement with his policies that bothers me, in fact I don't personally agree with all of his policies or beliefs myself. People have every right to critique their elected officials policies. What really bothers me is the blatant, mean and disrespect directed his way. He is the President of the most powerful nation in the world and his own people disrespect him. I find this unconscionable and extremely dangerous, not only for President Obama's personal safety but also for the sake of the nation and in the interest of peace.

CC, thank you for explaining some of it to me. As a Canadian I do acknowledge that there is much i do not know about American politics.

I don't see much disrespect in the criticism of the President. I see most of it directed towards his policies and there is nothing disrespectful about that. My biggest complaint about him is he got elected by saying he was going to end gridlock and partisan bickering. Now we have gone three straight years without getting a budget passed. This from the man who says he was going to end gridlock?
He also makes comments about how he wished he didn't have to deal with congress and could just govern without them. Then when congress tried to give him the authority to have more input into how the sequestration cuts were implemented he refused such authority. It seems he wants authority when it comes to spending money but when it comes to making hard choices on cuts that is up to congress to decided.
When the deadline was approaching for the sequestration he scheduled his meeting with congressional leader for the day AFTER the deadline! Couldn't he have at least met with them before hand if only for appearance sake. To schedule such a meeting after a major deadline speaks volumes about his willingness to bargain in good faith with the opposing party.
Then his 2014 budget comes out and his press secretary makes the comment that it wasn't what he would have wanted if he were king. Who said anything about being king??? What kind of attitude is that? Can you imagine if George Bush, Ronald Regan or Richard Nixon's press secretary had made such a comment??
No I don't think the criticism towards the President is mean spirited at all and very little it seems racist either. I just think people are just trying to hold him accountable.

Wish I could give this 1000 likes.

Thank you so much.

11 More Responses

Progressives don't love America. They constantly go out of their way to trash it. They tell lies about the Founding Fathers in order to denigrate America.

And this story should have been posted in a liberal group, not this one, according to EP's guidelines.

Who in God's name are you to say that "Progressives don't love America"? What makes you the arbiter of who does and does not love America. If my mother is an alcoholic or a junkie and I want her to get help, does that mean I don't love my mother? If I see my father doing awful things and enable him by saying nothing to try and stop him, does that mean I don't love my father.

You, my friend, have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. "Progressives don't love America." Nonsense!

As much as the very term progressive makes me want to barf as I have to agree with your comment. Just because some believes in what I think is bad policy I think it is going too far to say they do not love America.
I think that is what is wrong with the political debate in this country. Too often opposing views are marginalized. It is the same on the other side of the isle when anyone who brings up any type of social security reform is throwing grandma under the bus or forcing old people to choose between food and medicine.

its going to be very interesting to see what the next president do for this country.

I give the Dems a year before they try to amend the constitution to allow Obama to run for a third term.

online grandpa - are you on serious medication? Our president, President Barrach Obama has demonstrated himself repeatedly to be anything but moderate, centrist, or Christian. Furthermore, it is terribly tiring and cliched to constantly hear the accusations of racism from you people on the fringe left. Are you so bereft of brain cells that you cannot fathom that people can be adamantly opposed to a person's political views and policy presc<x>riptions without being racially biased against the man. <br />
<br />
To me, the very accusations you make are racist.

You know nothing about me except that I oppose President Obama. You can postulate all you want, but your assumptions themselves are racist in nature.

Then perhaps you can expound clearly on your meaning.

When you can offer no effective argument, then repeat what you already have said...

Any postulation or hypothesis is based upon assumptions. I have no doubt that in some cases, opposition to President Obama is based on race because I have witnessed, even here on EP, what is clearly racial bias. That is anecdotal evidence. However, I know my own heart and I know far too many others who share my opposition to President Obama based on policy and politics with race playing no role whatsoever. Therefore, I know your assumptions are faulty as a generalization, which is what you are doing. You are drawing general conclusions based on anecdotal evidence.

I see I failed to specifically address your last question. I apologize. Your hypothesis is based on an assumption that opposition by white voters to President Obama's reelection is predominantly a result of racism. That in itself is a generalization based on race, which by definition is racism. Therefore, your statement is racist.

I am afraid that I disagree. What I was referring to was overtly racist statements focused on the president's race. Again, there are racists and some small part of the opposition to President Obama is based on his race. That is racist. However, opposition to President Obama based on his policies, his veracity, or his lack of competence cannot in any way be considered racist. Being on the conservative side of the political aisle here in the US, I have an insider's view of large numbers of people who strong oppose this president, and not one of those people opposed him based on racism. My argument is that the mainstream press in the US and UK seems to rush to generalize and make assumptions that opposition to Obama is racist when it is not. Concurrently, these same reporters and analysts do not consider it racist for Obama supporters to openly and clearly state that their primary reason for voting in favor of President Obama is that he is Black -- a clearly racist point of view and a terrible double standard.

I am sure you are right that I was "reactionary," in responding to you and for that I apologize. I accept that were not accusing me of being racist, although it certainly seemed that way. I do not, however believe you are correctly interpreting the motivation behind anti-Obama sentiment.

Partly I suspect. I used the term in two ways concurrently -- "opposed to [P]rogressive social or political change," but also I used it in the unconventional sense to mean "reacting to statements or events," probably a misuse.

In American parlance, I am philosophically a libertarian (lower case "l") on most social issues while concurrently holding conservative or very conservative views on the size and power of the US Federal Government, Government expenditures, excessive deficit spending, and loose monetary policy that will ultimately lead to rampant inflation.

Constitutionally, I am a "Strict Constructionist" who believes that there is no room for the reinterpretation of the US Constitution to address changes in technology or culture because our framers provided the means within the constitution to revise and Amend the constitution to account for those changes. I personally believe that the US Government today operates far outside of the constraints of our founding legal document, exercising powers not granted to the Federal Government by the constitution or the amendments.

Please stick to the issues. Grandpa's brain cells or the lack thereof are not the issue and you cheapen the debate by making such lame comments.

How are the criticisms of the President racist? I agree with Lickity on this one. To criticize Obama's policies is not in any way racist. Are we to treat him as above reproach because he is black? That would be shallow and condescending. When someone runs for office, especially for President, criticism is part of the package.

OmyTVC15 -- Onlinegrandpa and I have had a history here on EP. He and I appear to be diametrically opposed on a great many issues and he has not always argued his points in a civil and respectful fashion. I no longer have any respect for his opinions and I deeply resent his repeated attempts to label myself and other conservatives as racists, homophobes, radical Christians, etc.

As a libertarian-conservative, I say without reservation that I am none of the things he has in the past said I am or "we" are and I know that most like myself cannot accurately be accused of being any those things. The fact is that I respond particularly to the racist accusation because nothing could be further from the truth. I am myself of mixed race, black and white, I have dated black women, and my very best friend in this world since 1969 is black.

I am one of those people who actually investigated and studied President Obama before he was elected president. I have read what he himself wrote in "Dreams From My Fathers," and what he was taped saying in a wide variety of venues many years prior to his election. If I can say anything positive about President Obama, it is that he is extremely consistent and persistent in pursuing an agenda and specific policies that have not changed for as far back as I can see. Anyone who does similar research will discover this for himself or herself.

President Obama does not like or respect the US as it has existed. He believes we are basically an evil, colonial power that has risen on the backs of minorities both inside and outside the US, particularly on the African continent. He believes in reparations for slavery and Jim Crow but also believes that reparations would ever be approved, therefore they must be accomplished through redistribution of wealth and power in the US. He does not believe that the US should any longer be the worlds strongest power or a "super-power." Whether he is Christian, Muslim, or something else religiously, he has a love and affinity for Islam. I could go on, but will not at this time.

6 More Responses

At Least <br />
We <br />
Now Know <br />
Who The Enemy <br />
Actually Is<br />
<br />
You guys, <br />
however, <br />
are nothing more <br />
than flag waving Nazis who, <br />
if you get your way, <br />
will end up making pre WW2 Germany <br />
look like a garden spot.<br />
<br />
---<br />
<br />
Please define the word <br />
we.<br />
<br />
I think Obama is good for the world<br />
and<br />
I am German.<br />
<br />
I think Mitt Romney<br />
should vote for Obama<br />
because then he maybe could also<br />
live the polygamous lifestyle<br />
like his grand-grandfather<br />
Miles.<br />
<br />
He should have enough money<br />
for doing that.<br />
(ever heard of the Cayman Islands)<br />

So, the progeny of genocidal Nazi feel they have the right to preach to Americans about who we should support for our president. How bizarrely ironic and absurd.

What did you say your father or grandfather was doing when the Jews were being gassed?

Hmmm, If I would be a Nazi,
I should vote for Romney, shouldn't I?

Because I can clearly remember
how Hitler refused to skake a Black Man's hand
Olympia 1936.

And by the way...

I don't have the right to preach
but the freedom of speech.

You are welcome!

The Lorax Will Open Debate @ How To Balance The Needs Of Business With Care For Nature<br />
<br />
See my last EP post @ that

Who gives a "****"? Apparently, you do.<br />
<br />
Considering that you are the author of this story, that you have responded to almost every comment on it, and that you took the time to join this group strictly for the purpose of being rude and disrespectful to the members here, it would be silly for you to pretend not to care at this point. <br />
<br />
I do, however, think it's a great idea for you to actually put your real life ahead of your obvious desire to make yourself a pain in the side of those you don't like online.<br />
<br />
To that end, I wish you well. :)

What's the matter coward?
Tired of having your *** handed you in every conversation?
If there is no restriction on INDIVIDUAL PRAYER, there is no lack of RELIGIOUS FREEDOM in schools.
So why did you lie about lack of religious freedom?
Case closed!!

I'm not what you're talking about. You're behaving a bit like a crazy person. I wonder what it is about Conservatives that makes you feel so defensive..

Yawn...........bottom line is............who really gives a ****? If you'll pardon me, I'm going to move along. I still have an actual life to live.

I think we both know that I have not been guilty of doing that to you or anyone else on EP.<br />
<br />
But in the case that you are assuming that anyone who disagrees with you must be a bigot, then I would suggest that perhaps you should research the definition of the word.<br />
<br />
It is not bigotry to expose a person who makes false and/or dramatic accusations as being guilty of rhetoric. If you make the decision to voice your negative opinions so brazenly, you should first be sure that they can be validated with facts. Otherwise, you only have yourself to blame when your words are called into question.

I direct you to the expose of your false statements 3 posts down.
Are you a bigot? I don't know.
Are you intelligent?

Seems unlikely.

I haven't made any false statements, sir. I have only challenged those that were already made.

"In the end, it appears to me that you find it perfectly acceptable behavior to paint anyone you don't like or agree with as evil or a villain."<br />
<br />

I'll hoist my glass to IT's post!.. WTG lady!.. Bill in Va.

Again, your accusations are false. You're exaggerating and being dramatic for the sake of making yourself appear right even though your allegations lack a factual basis. Most "intellectuals" would call that "rhetoric".<br />
<br />
Homosexuality will never again be illegal in this country, regardless of who the president or ruling party is. Children will never be "forced" to to pray, but there may actually be religious freedom again that would allow those children who DO wish to pray the ability to do so without being penalized, scolded or ostricized for it. Anyone who believes in true freedom and understands America's beginnings would know that this would be a great step towards enhancing freedom. <br />
<br />
As to coat hanger abortions, I never met a woman who was forced into one of those. To blame pro life people for such an inhumane act as using a coat hanger to destroy your own child is disgusting. More than 95% of all abortions are not as a result of rape or ******, but are rather the result of irresponsible sex acts on the part of the women. There is such a thing called birth control and when last I checked, Roe Vs. Wade had not been overturned when Conservative presidents took office.<br />
<br />
As to trickle down economics, you're entitled to your opinions on that but it may come as a shock to you that others are entitled to their opinions on it as well. There are experts on both sides of this talk that have a far better understanding of these things than you or I. <br />
<br />
In the end, it appears to me that you find it perfectly acceptable behavior to paint anyone you don't like or agree with as evil or a villain. You single out certain groups to direct your disdain at which include "whites", "Christians" and "nationalists". According to Merriam Webster, that is the working definition of the word "bigot". <br />
<br />
If you don't like bigotry, do not behave like a bigot. It doesn't take an intellectual to understand the concept of the golden rule.

False dichotomy (Logical fallacy)
Lack of mandatory or organized or state sponsored prayer is not "Lack of religious freedom".
Freedom to practice automatically excludes any COERCION.
Therefore: Either you LIED about religious freedom for children in school, or you are much too UNintelligent to make a logical argument.
As to Trickle Down economics, I posit a single reply.
30 years post Raygun, where are the jobs?
You lose.

I did not say anything about mandatory or state sponsored prayer. I spoke directly to the matter of children who DO wish to pray being allowed to do so without fear of being penalized, scolded, or ostricized for it. And yes, that would enhance religious freedom. You would agree with me as well if you were a religious person. If you are not, of course you wouldn't want to enhance religious freedom. I don't think that makes you "right". :)

Then you agree that there IS NO LACK OF RELIGIOUS FREEDOM.
Case closed, you are arguing with yourself.

When children in schools are told that Jesus is one topic they are not allowed to write about or draw picture of, that is an infringement of religious freedom for which we can thank ACLU types like you, bl.

1 More Response

I'm not saying white, Christian nationalists are Nazis. I'm saying they behave like Nazis. If they come to power, gays will be criminals again, children will be forced to pray in schools, and women will once again discover the joys of coat hanger abortions in back rooms. These are three of the reasons why white, Christian nationalists are so anti-intellectual. Another reason is intellectuals understand that your Trickle Down Economics is absolute BS.

OLGP.. I suggest you start provisioning your 1950's bomb shelter in light of the 2012 elections a short 12 months ahead. The latest experiment on "social justice" will be a closed chapter. Bill in Va.

I don't see how any of that validates your accusation that the members of this group are Nazi's for thinking Obama is dangerous for the country. Doublespeak is unbecoming of anyone, at any time.<br />
<br />
To put it into perspective for you, for every single president America has had in recent times, there have been those who felt that each president was "dangerous" for America. Whether that President was Republican or Democrat, and regardless of the political affiliations of those who disliked them, this has been true. <br />
<br />
In order for people to be concerned about Obama, they first have to care about America. Otherwise, why would they mind someone they feel is "dangerous" running the country? It is the democratic way to allow the citizens of this country to speak up if they're unhappy with their elected leaders -- not the "Nazi" way, so I'm not sure exactly what you mean to imply with that remark.<br />
<br />
When Bush was in office, the left said exactly the same thing about him and he was FAR more "Christian" than the current president. It's highly debatable whether or not Obama is even a follower of Christ by any stretch of the imagination, but that's neither here nor there.<br />
<br />
Your entire story is littered with negative, biased opinions and false accusation; and these seem to be the very things that you despise from those who feel Obama is dangerous.<br />
<br />
Don't you find that even a little bit ironic? <br />
<br />
It's never a good thing when pots take it upon themselves to hate kettles for being black.

Well, white Christian nationalists are as white Christian nationalists do. If the shoe fits, as it were.<br />
<br />
Almost every single proposal from this administration was originally a Republican proposal, including health care reform, so I might tend to agree with you that President Obama is dangerous for the country, because he's basically a moderate Republican.

You are obviously a pot smoking, kook-aid drinking moron OLGP!

I don't mind your opinions. I think they're ridiculous.. but I don't mind them.<br />
<br />
As for your claim that anyone who thinks Obama is dangerous for the country is a Nazi, well.. I'm wondering who the greater bigot is now. Us.. or you?

Well, at least I know the "morons" will win in the end, even if I won't be around to see it, because their political beliefs are founded on compassion and compassion will outlast everything. Oh, and how I see President Obama as a moderate, and a moderate Republican at that, is because every single one of his policies, including health care reform, was originally a Republican proposal. Don't you guys wonder what ever happened to all those moderate and liberal Republicans?

Yep will.....guess you are right again :-)

What I can't understand is why anyone would give the original moron who posted this more than a second of thought!.. Oops.. that took me 10 seconds.. Bill in Va.

TwylaMarie, you are 100 percent right on this. I'm still scratching my head how anyone with a love of the country could even think for a minute that obama is a moderate, completely escapes me. Seriously now!

Free health care?... are you telling me doctors and nurses and hospitals are non-profit and don't receive a salary?... Someone is paying for it.. You are aware that millions of Americans, they are subject to testing for drug usage but those receiving government handouts have no such restrictions!.. Where is the fairness there?... We have become an entitlement society.. Bill in Va.

Maybe one of you could explain something to me, what is so wrong with wanting affordable health insurance? I work for a small company of 25 people, I pay 23% in taxes and then 25% of my take home pay goes to health insurance with united health care, then I get to pay a 25$ co-pay on doctor visits. If the US government can create a effective system like Canada or the UK, I would be all for it, because there is no way it would be as high as I am now paying for taxes plus insurance.<br />
<br />
Another equally important thing no body talks about is all the US jobs being lost over seas to countries like Ireland, UK, India and Canada. These countries all have universal health care and that means any US company moving over there would not have to pay insurance health care cost saving the millions of dollars on jobs that should be in the US if only we had universal health care. <br />
<br />
Look if I think if you want to stay with your over price health care you have every right to it, but if the rest of us want to go with a public option I do not think you should stand in the way of it. Why should US Congressmen and US Senators get so much better health care than the people that elected them into office?

I'm speaking as an outsider here but some of what's good for your country comes from outside. Goodwill, reputation, an inclination to trust and co-operate with the USA. These factors have improved a lot under Obama's presidency and done much to repair the damage done by his predecessor

Hey, I'm with you Grandpa. You make a great deal of sense (and we all have to vent now and then).

I tried sending you a message but EP is wanting a token because you post adult content, which the free speech part of me has a fit with. So, how about visiting my blog and we'll work off that to discuss ideas. How's that sound?

OLGP... Finally a tempered comment from ya. But how about you start a new thread as this one is getting way too long! Post a new one titled something like I tried to do. Mine is titled "A Sane Discussion on the TEA Party".. How about Libs - Convervs - Pro's & Cons. <br />
Once you set up your new thread, post one more hear with the link!<br />
<br />
But before I abandon this thread a couple of questions:<br />
Why can I do a search on here for the word HATE and I get George Bush, Republicans, TEA Party, country, Obama Bashers etc. Q 2. ( I surfed the first 400 groups and did find ONE "I Hate Liberals or whatever) Have you called out any of these people to temper their rhetoric? (I have done so with out of control conservatives). Bill in Va.

If I say, Socialism, and your mind slams shut, well, we're not going to have much of a civil conversation. Now, I may be a moron, that's definitely a possibility, but at least I'm willing to examine the merits of an unregulated corporate state, or even a totally unmanaged society, meaning the wild, wild west. I try to keep an open mind. At least I have that.<br />
<br />
Still, I'm old, and I'm prone to the occasional vent. I even say things I regret sometimes. My hearts in the right place, though. I only want the very best for everyone, and that includes Conservatives.<br />
<br />
Happy New Year, by the way.<br />
<br />
There are some things that really bug me about Conservatives, especially those white Christian Nationalists, who I see as being pretty much the same as their swastika wearing counterparts. True. I get fired up about that. I hate racism and bigotry. However, I'm willing to consider almost everything else.<br />
<br />
If you can explain to me how an Ayn Rand world will work so much better than any form of government, I'll sit and listen and consider everything you say. However, since I started out in life as an Ayn Rand fan, I now see her as the elitist she was. She viewed the public as being little more than tree hugging slugs who want nothing more than to drain wealth from those who deserve it so much more, the industrialists. So I hope you'll excuse me for not being overly excited.<br />
<br />
Something else bugs me about you folks on the Right. You always see the worst in everyone. On the other hand, they don't call use "bleeding heart liberals" for nothing. I'll give you that. We err on the side of seeing the best in everyone. Perhaps we're both wrong there.<br />
<br />
But I don't see government as being inherently evil. Government is just a system of management. You get out of it exactly what you put in. I don't see business and corporations as being inherently evil either. I do believe Capitalism is incredibly wasteful, though, but that's only because it's fueled by greed. I see that as little different from a corrupt government wallowing in bureaucracy.<br />
<br />
I'm willing to continue this discussion, without the name calling, of course, but I'd prefer we stick with our personal philosophies rather than trying to drown each other with details and "facts." Just explain to me, from a Conservative point of view, what you think we should be doing, what methods we should be using to solve the country's problems, and go ahead and describe the Conservative life we should be living. I'll respond with how I see things.<br />
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Can we do that?

I've yet to read ONE single rationale thought expressed by OLGP.. It's obvious he's had his head buried in the sand for a long long time. I was about to embark on a lengthy rebuttal to his position statements but I've covered pretty much every dibble that he spouts. AND, I've done it in a very civil way much unlike the liberal counter posters. The hate, the foulness and name-calling by the left just leaves me comforted that the MASSIVE change that started with the election of Scott Brown in Mass, Bob McDonnell in Va, Chis Christie in NJ and terminated on Nov. 2. It's going to be one hellova year or two. Bill in Va.

Moron? Maybe, but it takes one to know one.<br />
<br />
***Blowing Raspberries***......and, I fart in your general direction.

you are a moron gramps...

Civil to or about President George W Bush, Grandpa? If you think Bush was treated civilly, you are a moron, an ideologue, or both.<br />
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The treatment Barrack Obama has gotten pails in comparison to the hate and derision that was aimed by the left wing press, liberals, progressives, socialists, communists, Marxists, and anarchists at Bush. He was accused of mass murder, war crimes, starting a war for personal reasons, starting a war for his "Big Oil" buddies, stealing an election, responsibility for 9/11, being a racist, and so many other names and accusations I could not print them all here in a week of typing. "Bush Lied, People Died" is oh so civil, isn't it? <br />
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To the points you make -- is Government the solution to any of our problems? Absolutely. As an Ayn Rand Libertarian myself, we are not anarchists. We the people, through our government, need to take care of those who through injury, illness, or infirmity are unable to care for themselves. Through our government, we need to respond to catastrophes to save lives and temporarily ease suffering. <br />
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The problem is that our government does a terrible job of everything it tries to do. Furthermore, our current president and the Democrat Congress support redistribution of wealth -- not to care for those who cannot care for themselves, but to care for those who, through their own poor choices and the failures of government education, have failed. Before them, the Republicans themselves irrationally grew the government, also without improving or better accomplishing the ob<x>jectives of government -- that is why the people threw out the Republicans in 2006, and why the people began to throw out the Democrats in 2010. <br />
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We the people keep electing Lawyers to public office and reelect the same self-interested scoundrels regardless of their level of incompetence or corruption because they give us things, stroke our egos, and promise to solve all of our problems -- but there is no accountability. As long as there is government without accountability the people will suffer, the nation will suffer, and our children will suffer.

Well onlinegradpa, I usually don't mess with your post because I don't like socialism and you are truly one. This is from another forum that has someone trying to convince me that the "Death Tax" is a valid I am posting it for you to read and consider...<br />
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"The Republican labeled "death tax", which is really an inheritance tax, is a tax on UNEARNED income received. The person that earned the money is not being taxed again because they are dead. It is the recipient of unearned income that is being taxed.<br />
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I pay taxes on unearned income, such as interest received, on money which I paid taxes on when I earned the principle. Why shouldn't those that receive inheritances, unearned income, pay taxes also? By the way it was a $3.5 million threshold in 2009. In 2009 it is estimated only 5,500 filers owed estate tax totaling about $13.8 billion. The estate tax, scheduled to return in 2011 with a $1 million exemption will cause many more estates to file returns. It is estimated that 108,200 estates of people dying that year will file estate tax returns and 44,200 of those estates will pay taxes totaling $34.4 billion.<br />
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Advocating doing away with estate taxes is just another attempt at tax avoidance and not paying one's fair share while receiving the benefits of living in this free society. All for a very small slice of taxpayers, less than one percent. The IRS data show that only 0.7 percent of deaths in 2007 resulted in estate tax liability in 2008.<br />
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It is a myth that the estate tax hurts farmers and small businesses. The Congressional Budget Office found that the estate tax threatens almost no farmers or small businesspeople. While the American Farm Bureau Federation has never cited a single example of a farm having to be sold to pay estate taxes."<br />
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My response:<br />
You can spout all that BS about the death tax being unearned income you all you want, but I have lived through it. <br />
It took several years of turning over the total income of my families revenue to the IRS, to keep from having to sell the property, that my mother and dad had spent a lifetime working and paying for. Of course, the estate had to pay taxes on that income too. It took a couple of lawyers and a couple of accounts to keep track of all of it, and it wasn't a large estate. <br />
We had tried to prepare for it, but we came up short. Saving half of what you have, after you have paid for it, and still live is not an easy chore.<br />
You can believe what you want...but that is not "unearned income". The whole family worked to build that estate, in hopes that it could be passed on. By the Grace of God, we were able to keep the land, but it was a struggle. We all worked and sacrificed to build it...what, besides sitting on the "Great Government Thrown" did anyone else do to deserve any part of it?<br />
Unearned income? Yes !!! But not on our part...that's on the government's part !!!<br />

Republicans have a ba<x>se filled with low information voters, so "Death Tax," "Death Panel, "Socialism," "Seat Belts," Motorcycle Helmet," "NASCAR," and "Welfare" have a whole different meaning for those folks than they do for Progressives.<br />
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Low Information Voters are always worried about somebody, the government, taking something away from them, although those kind of laws almost never apply to them at all, so they usually freak out over any kind of federal regulation, including the most recent one that forces tv networks to maintain the sound of tv commercials at the same volume level as the programs they're showing. Low Information Voters scream "Over Stepping." The rest of us sigh, "It's about f**king time."<br />
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Personally, I think there are many things we should ask government to help us out with, but there are many things we should ask government to stay out of, too. I don't want government involved with regulating what people want to use to get high or what people want to use to alleviate pain, other than perhaps taxing the stuff to raise federal revenues.<br />
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I don't want to see government doing anything that even remotely smacks of "Lifestyle Police," but I'd rather government go all gang busters on the Equal Protection clause of the 14th Amendment so that ones sexual preference is no longer a matter of concern for anyone.<br />
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And I'd like to see government get rid of all these damn guns, even though I have the same cowboy fantasy that every other guy has.

Stoller brings up the estate tax, or as he and the rest of the republican brainiacs call it, the "death tax". This tax has a current exemption of one million dollars, in previous years it has had exemptions of 2.5 million to 5 million dollars... So if stoller is affected by this, congratulations are in order because he has made it into a tax bracket that 99.7% of us do not fall into. But people like Frank Lutz and conservative think tanks like the Cato Institute and Heritage foundation found that re-branding the estate tax as the "death tax" would fool people into believing that the government was going to tax everyone when they die. Stoller has fallen for this propaganda ploy, as have millions of other idiots.

Cleaning house is not such a bad idea.<br />
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However, the fact that the Republicans screwed up so bad is not the ONLY reason the Democrats swept into office. There's a whole bunch of folks out here looking for Progressive solutions to our nation's problems.<br />
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I'm curious. What part of the Constitution is our government not following? I know it got a little iffy over that whole water boarding, torture, illegal wiretapping thing, and "don't ask/don't tell" and preventing gays and lesbians from marrying clearly violates the "equal protection" clause in the 14th Amendment, but is there something else I'm missing?

I'm pretty sure lambs don't eat wolves, but the general idea of "majority rule" is whoever get's elected, the other side stands down. Either the Democrats are 100% in charge or the Republicans are. There's no middle ground. I could live with that. If Republicans come to power, I would watch in amazement and amusement as you deconstruct the government. However, if I've been totally wrong and our society starts running like gang busters with Republicans in charge, then I've been totally wrong and I'll adjust my thinking. Would you be willing to do the same?

I'm not defending the government we have now. It sucks, but that's because we suck as citizens. Because we're a polarized society, every single piece of legislation is a compromise, like the proverbial committee that sets out to design a horse and ends up with a camel. There's not one clear mission statement that comes out of Congress and the results prove it. Any fool could design a better Medicare system than the one we have, and obviously fools designed this one.<br />
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The older I get, the more I'm in favor of majority rule. That would put an end to watered down legislation once and for all. I'd be willing to give power to the Republicans, let them dismantle the entire government, and see if us citizens like the results well enough to re-elect them next time around. On the other hand, I'd really like to see what happens when our country is run by a truly progressive government. <br />
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In the meantime, our government sucks big time. It sucked when George Bush was President. It still sucks now. Let's try "majority rule" and see if we can dig ourselves out of this mess.

I agree. For more than two parties, you'd need to go to a parliamentary system that would allow coalition governments.<br />
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Things are going to be tough here in America until most of the electorate gets on the same page. Our polarization is going to be with us for centuries, I fear, but eventually the Left will gain a solid majority. Then the Right will see that having a government that solves problems isn't a bad idea at all, and the Left will gain more and more support until we have a fully functioning country.

Good point here grampa. But my view only is that it would be a mistake, The two party systom need's to remain intact. A third or fourth party would only confuse and divide the voter's even further. It could backfire and put the worst in office.

I'm thinking the 2012 election will produce a third party candidate on the right because it will only take a year or so before the Tea Party figures out they've been had by the Republicans. That leaves open the possibility of a fourth party candidate from the Left. Kucinich? Perhaps. I'd be hard pressed not to vote for him in a general election.

Double Down on that onlinegrandpa.<br />
Wouldn't it have been nice if the "Only" choice besides McSame had been Kucinich?<br />
Or maybe John "Impeach Bush" Conyers?

I'd like to remind my conservative friends I was venting in the original post, although I'm always suspicious of white Christian nationalists.<br />
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I'd also like to say I think Conservatives deserve much better leaders than they get, and I feel the same way about the Left.

Onlinegrandpa, we do have a bifurcated nation, in the form of those flyover RED states that eat up federal tax dollars, taking in more than they put out for the good of the WHOLE nation.<br />
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"The top ten feeders at the federal trough in 2005 were: New Mexico, Mississippi, Alaska, Louisiana, West Virginia, North Dakota, Alabama, South Dakota, Kentucky and Virginia. (Sarah Palin’s home state of Alaska ranks number one if measured in terms of federal spending per capita. Alabama Senator Shelby evidently gets goodies for his state, ranked 7, by indiscriminately holding up votes on administration appointments.) The top ten milk cows were: New Jersey, Nevada, Connecticut, Minnesota, Illinois, Delaware, California, New York, and Colorado.<br />
<br /><br />
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I wonder if the teagaggers will be quite so happy when their selectees get back to the feeding trough?

"You guys, however, are nothing more than flag waving Nazis who, if you get your way, will end up making pre WW2 Germany look like a garden spot."<br />
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I really can't believe you wrote this. I thought you were a rational person. This is not a rational statement.

You last statement was spot on. My eye goes right to the greedy fat cats first, but I also agree with you that leeches are just as bad as the other end of the spectrum.<br />
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I can see all kinds of room for compromise in that little exercise we just did. You run for office and I'll run for office. I can see spending the day reaching across the aisle. You can help me make government more efficient and I'll help you keep costs down.<br />
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I may be way over here on the left but I seriously try not to trip over my ideology. I think you probably feel the same way.<br />
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I believe we both just want the best for everyone but we've simply chosen different tools to get the job done.<br />
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If we could somehow divide America in half. Conservatives take the right side and Liberals take the left, pun intended. It would be interesting to see which way works best in a hundred or so years. I have a feeling, given enough time, we'd end up at exactly the same place. We would have simply taken different paths to get there.<br />
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And even though we argue and debate, I still wish you the very best.

First off, to say government is the most commonly used FORM of government is about like saying the most commonly purchased type of automobiles is automobiles. Now for your experiement. I also want the manufacturing jobs back. Where I'll assume we differ is I believe they have left because of government regulation, taxation, and unsustainable union demands. I know unions originated were very badly needed when they originated but they have come to a point of breaking the backs of the companies for whom they work. On health care, I agree with what you said but we likely differ on the solution. Health care costs began getting as outragous as they have when medicare/medcade originated so I don't beleive expantion of that concept will make the problem any better. Education is another example, public schools have gotten worse and worse (at least in my area) since the federal government took over in the late 70s. As for college, a good freind of mine never took a dime from his parents but rather worked all he could work to put himself through and today can be proud to say he is self made. There is no reason anyone couldn't do the same. Fact is all governement programs originate with the best of intentions but governemnt is typically the most inefficient method of solving a problem, particularly the further you get from local. I agree that loving your nieghbor as yourself is the teaching of Christ. Where it is being perverted today is that no where in the Bible does it say a centralized government should force you to be charitable and redustribute your wealth for you. Charity is within the heart and if it's forced it isn't charity at all. I do, however, believe that we as a society have the resposability to take care of those who cannot take care of themselves but I couldn't care less about those who will not take care of themselves. As I typed that last sentence it occured to me a fundimental difference between those with a Socialist view vs. those with a conservative/Libertarian view. When considering which class of people in which to form an opinion, my mind usually goes directly to the free loading leaches of society where yours likely would go to the greedy, shady, underhanded thieves. One is as bad as the other.

I was waiting for the "If you don't like it here, why don't you leave?" comment so at least you don't disappoint. You apparently didn't get "Government is the most commonly tried form of government," so I'll try not to be subtle in the future.<br />
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Why don't we try an interesting experiment? Let's drop the terminology and -isms. Let's see if we have things in common that tripping over our ideologies is keeping us from discovering.<br />
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I want all those manufacturing jobs back. I want trade policies that make sense so those jobs stay here. I'd like to see the minimum wage increased so people could live on it. I think education for your kids and health care for your families are things you shouldn't have to stay up late at night worrying about. I think "We the People" should have your backs on those things. I'd like to see us taking care of one another so nobody falls through the cracks and no one gets left behind, basically like Christ taught. I think we should love one another and treat each other with respect, again like Christ taught, and we should devote our lives to living as ethically as we can. I think we should look at the world to see if anyone out there has figured out better ways to do things, things that would make our society better. I believe we should keep an open mind about new ideas and lean towards tolerance for people who are different from us.<br />
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How does that contrast with what you want?<br />
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I'm honestly curious.

Good. Then let's properly abolish the bullshit term "free market" because there is no such thing in a monopolistic Capitalism such as the one Repigs are trying to foist on us, where corporate masters set prices, wages and working conditions.<br />
As for Nazi being Socialist just because they say so, is China now a REPUBLIC of the PEOPLE just because THEY say so? Sooner, stupid is leaching out of your brain into your fingers as you type, and it is so easy to beat you that it's barely worth the time, except I love to watch you squirm<br />
Remember, if National Socialist Workers Party 'proves' that Hitler was a Socialist, then Mao was a Libertarian Republican.<br />
Idiot!!!<br />
Oh, actually, Europe, particularly Germany, Holland and the Norse countries DO have an immigration problem, because people ARE beating the doors down to get in.

"Regulated free markets" is a contradiction in terms. Nazi translates to Nationalist Socialist, so it is Socialism. I'll let the author of the dumbest statement I have ever read "socialism isn't the most commonly tried form of GOVERNMENT, GOVERNMENT is" have a chance to recant. Also, WE are the richest, most prosperous people in the world. If you beleive there is better in a socialist country, why don't you relocate to the utopia and allow those of us who believe in the individual to enjoy it? In closing, if Europe is as good as is claimed, why are the people rioting in the streets as we speak?

I just love being lectured by Republicans on the subject of facts. I find that more than a little entertaining since you guys seem to pull 'em right out of your behinds whenever it suits you.<br />
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And, Robert, my use of the phrase "trailer park religion" was done with poetic license and because those three words are an efficient definition. I mean those folks who believe strongly without every giving much thought to exactly what their beliefs mean, folks who claim to be Christians but whose behavior suggests otherwise, and, well, I think you get my drift.<br />
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By the way, I've lived in house trailers. Hell, I've even lived in a pick up truck camper. <br />
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I don't look down my nose at others. I do, however, vent from time to time, and I don't mind when others do the same.

Why not look down our noses? YOU ALWAYS GET THE FACTS WRONG, and that falsehood underlays your entire movement.<br />
OF COURSE you are contemptible.<br />
Merely look at Formeonly and his insistence, despite me linking to the federal budget, that Obama has spent more than the last three President's combined.<br />
I even DID HIS WORK FOR HIM and still he repeats a clear and obvious lie.<br />
You are even worse. You won't even bother to express the source of your bullshit 'facts' which are ALWAYS WRONG. He's arrogant, you're lazy.<br />
Both are contemptible.

Hiya Gramp's<br />
You and I have talked many time's and although we dont agree one everything get along. But at least for me here somthing stood out that has nothing really to do with the Obama. Now I understand that you said that you were just venting but you used a phrase that stood out like a sore thumb to me. Thinly vieled racism, misguided and nisinformed TRAILER PARK religion. I have to be honest here that I find that to be a thinly veiled racism remark directed at those that live in a trailer park. That they are all stupid dimwit's that know nothing.<br />
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Though it is on my own land I live is a trailer because I could pay cash for it and not go int debt. Because I live in one on my own land does that mean that I am only half a dimwit ? You know as well as I do that we have some dimwit's in goverment and they dont live in a trailer. If that is all you can afford to keep a roof over your family's head why does that make them an inbred idiot or the butt of joke's. Is that not a form of racism ? have they not been branded ?<br />
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Why does it have to be that Obama is black have to be the reason for dislike ? Myself, I dont care if he is pink and came from mar's. He is an idiot that is married to an ignorant woman with a mouth that would be better off sewn shut. I would rather have Spanky of the Lil Rascal's in the white house. That is me and I just dont like nor respect him or his wife for my own reason's. I will end this now, I WAS JUST VENTING.

And right now, the house is in the hands of people whose leaders declare that the 53% who voted for Obama are not part of the "Pro American part of America".<br />
That SHOULD frighten rational people!!

Thanks. I can certainly use the 10 points.<br />
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I'd like to point out that Socialism isn't the most commonly tried form of government. Government is. Democratic Socialism should be, but it's not there yet. Democratic Socialism is nothing more than using government as a tool to provide goods and services that citizens want and need. Anything else is either a country club or some form of dictatorship.

10 points grandpa!!<br />
The German Socialists have a nice thing going too.

First of all, historically speaking, a dictatorship is not Socialism, nor is a totalitarian government.<br />
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Secondly, tell those nice folks in Denmark who have the highest standard of living on the planet and who are insanely happy with both their government and the high taxes they agree to pay so they don't have to worry about falling through the cracks. That's Democratic Socialism. They use regulated free markets and they use government as a tool to make their lives better. Yep. Go tell them how their system has failed.

It's funny that we on the far right are constantly labeled the uninformed, stupid, halfwit, exc yet many of us know enough about history to realize two things onlinegrandpa doesn't. First is that facsism is left wing, not right (look up Hitlers policies), and second is that socialism in every form is the most commonly tried form of government throughout history and it holds one perfect record, it has failed everytime. It has been mentioned how accomplished this administration and this congress have been. Therein lies the core problem, the "accomplishments" they have made were virtually all wildly unpopular and unwanted by the average American. We are a center-right society and feel as though socialism (good or bad) is being forced down our throats.

I don't mind attack ads. I think you should call 'em as you see 'em. What bothers me most are the outright lies, distortions, and half truths. That bothers me because it's the perfect tactic to use on Americans. Most of us are uninformed and know very little about the political process, and you know as well as I do it's those folks who respond to slogans and bumper stickers about "Obamacare," "Don't Tread On Me," and "Keep Your Hands Off My Medicare." Don't get me wrong. The Left uses slogans, too. Notice, though, that a little more thought goes into "Equal Rights," "Bring Our Troops Home," even all the way to the left of left like, "Workers of the World Unite!"<br />
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I'm not a big supporter of President Obama, but, as a Centrist Democrat, he's accomplished more in two years than any other president has in half a century, and this Congress has been more productive than any Congress in history, and all of these accomplishments have taken place in the middle of the 2nd worst economic catastrophe we've ever had to face. If not for the actions of our government, unemployment might be 25% and climbing, but our government stepped up to the plate and kept us from going over a cliff. If you listened to the right, however, you'd never hear a word about this.<br />
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What you do hear is how President Obama is a Kenyan Muslim, a Socialist, a Communist, and how he wants to take away all our rights and freedoms and how someone has to stop him from picking on the rich.<br />
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The Right feels the ends justify the means so lies, mis-information, and distortions are right up their alley. Combine that with that fact that a large portion of our population doesn't spend a lot of time thinking about things and you get the Tea Party and the current Republican Party.<br />
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And now they control the House. That's terrible news. However, the Left will now start pushing back. The Left will eventually win, too, because all that we really want is for everyone to be treated equally and fairly and that no one is left behind. All the Right has is their outdated ideology. They have nothing to offer except the promise that somehow you might get rich. Uh huh. Capitalism is nothing more than a pyramid scheme.

I am not American but I can sympathize with how much you loathe seeing dirty attacks launched in the name of political feud.<br />
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Similar thing is happening in my country and it makes one feel horrified at how low people can go.

The only people I meant to offend are flag waving nazis and their modern equivalents. Personally, I don't think you should worry yourself about Germany's past, in the same sense I'm not going to apologize for America's flirtation with slavery or the genocide of our native American population. <br />
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Brother, it's a brand new day, and we can walk together into the future and try to make this world a better place.

Gramdpa-- you are right that a good deal of the rights hate & discontent is all about having a black president-- some folks just can't stand that !!

I'm not a big supporter of President Obama. He's not much of a liberal, he's definitely not a Socialist, but he's at least moving the country forward, and that has to be a good thing.<br />
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The GOP, on the other hand, has become the party of the least informed, those who express their opinions loudly even though those opinions are ba<x>sed on ignorance and misinformation and downright lies.<br />
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Look at all the screaming that took place over health care reform. The idea of public health insurance was a deal breaker for most members of Congress and the right went nuts with the fear that government was taking over their health care. Look at the reality, though. Anybody can run an insurance company. It's just insurance. The only difference between a private insurance company and public insurance is cost. Since there's no profit involved, public insurance will always be cheaper. Also, the government doesn't take over anything. It just handles the administration of the insurance. <br />
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So, why all the screaming. I have no idea, unless health care reform wasn't behind the screaming at all. Maybe it's more the idea that a black president has suddenly focused all the emotional energy of the idiot fringe and those who take advantage of them, the Christian Right, The Tea Party, and the Republican Party.

Interesting thing about this thread--It is apperently supposed to be an anti Obama theme--Turns out the almost only sane sounding voices are the one in support of Obama & the general direction of the country-- the people who jump in for the origional intent don't have the ability to say any thing senseable .

Right on Toby & grandpa!!! I'm 69 years old & I have NEVER seen the Right wing folks so NASTY & STUPID as now. Was a time when the GOP was at least understandable in their agenda --now it is just plain mean & Nasty!!

You were spit on and reviled for participating in the killing of babies USN?<br />
GOOD!!<br />
GOOD for Americans to stand up for what AMERICA stands for, and not "I OBEY" your only motto!<br />
SCREW the good Germans who tell us to love them for firebombing villages and squandering our money killing innocents!<br />
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And screw anyone who says that it is antiAmerican to love the Constitution, while hating what the Flag has become!!!

I just love hearing what spews forth from all these racist, homophobic, stone age, capitalist Christians who aren't Christians at all. Just go give Glen Beck a hug. I'm sure he needs one, along with more money.<br />
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If Christ was, in fact, the Son of God. You guys are going to be in for a rude awakening when you cough up a lung one day because you seem to be missing the whole point. We're supposed to take care of one another, love one another, and treat each other with respect. You know, like Quakers....and Democratic Socialists.

How about the sneaky appointment of someebody while congress and the senate was on vacation? How about nancy pelosi ramming laws through that nobody wants? I believe the (Annointed One) WILL BE A 1 TERM PRESIDENT, AND THNK GOD. He just loves to kiss muslim *****.

paterpus, under Obama the Constituion is NOW the law, unlike under Bush.<br />
"First amendment zones" are gone.<br />
Prior restraint of publishing, gone.<br />
Search and seizure without FISA court aproval, gone.<br />
That's the Constitution at work for you!!!

I'm a liberal. I voted Obama. I cried with joy when he was elected and had so much faith in his message of hope. Lately I have become disillusioned. Special interests makes it so hard for any president to enact change. Most things Obama has put into motion have been distorted or watered down in order to placate everyone. I don't know if true reform is possible anymore. I feel myself becoming cynical and it disgusts me. I'm also so fed up with the right and left jumping down eachother's throats. We are never going to fix America if we can't at least be civil. Don't we all love this country? I do. I thank god I was born and raised here. I thank god I can raise my children here. But I'm so scared that we'll never stop fighting eachother.

What happened to all the common sense in both partys? I am an indepenent and hope we can make obama a one term president and get back to our rule of law, the constitution.

I agree with most of what onlinegrandpa has to say and how he says it.<br />
Guess what, I am a registered Republican, not that I advertise that fact these days. I did not vote for either of the Bushes and I was embarrasssed and frightened by a lot of what George Bush said or did.<br />
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Unfortunately, for me, the Presidential elections od recent years have been more about who I don't want in office than who I do.<br />
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I agree that the far right has become fanatical, biased, inflexible, even hysterical and racist in some cases, and it is scary. I think the media plays a part in that they control so much of what we see and hear. They can put any spin they want on something and people are too willing to just accept it as absolute fact. I am praying that we all move back towards the middle and have some meaningful dialogue.

Planet, <br />
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What does cold war Russia have to do with this discussion? It's comical that those on the right that fear "socialism" so much assume that countries which get "tainted" by socialism end up like that country in that era. Is it possible to have a functioning government and economy if you follow socialist ideals? Hmmm. The Democratic Socialist party, which is powerful in many countries in modern day Europe, would say yes. <br />
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Here's an idea: go to Denmark and ask them how many Danes experience financial distress, lose their homes, or even declare bankruptcy because of a major illness in the family. The answer is NONE. <br />
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Here in the great freedom loving USA, half of all bankruptcies are because people have the nerve to come down with a major medical condition like cancer. Our freedom loving system that you wax poetic about is cruel and inhumane. <br />
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Oh and then you have the gall to talk about how Americans just need to take more personal responsibility. Ya, how irresponsible of the millions who get breast cancer or prostate cancer or cervical cancer. They should have been more responsible and not developed those conditions. Or they should have just been more responsible and gotten as rich as Bill Gates so that these conditions wouldn't bankrupt them.

"Robert P. Watson, Ph.D. Coordinator of American Studies Lynn University"<br />
Email: <br />
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I am always being asked to grade Obama's presidency. In place of offering him a grade, I put together a list of his accomplishments thus far. I think you would agree that it is very impressive. His first six months have been even more active than FDRs or LBJs the two standards for such assessments. Yet, there is little media attention given to much of what he has done. Of late, the media is focusing almost exclusively on Obama's critics, without holding them responsible for the uncivil, unconstructive tone of their disagreements or without holding the previous administration responsible for getting us in such a deep hole. The misinformation and venom that now passes for political reporting and civic debate is beyond description.<br />
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As such, there is a need to set the record straight. What most impresses me is the fact that Obama has accomplished so much not from a heavy-handed or top-down approach but from a style that has institutionalized efforts to reach across the aisle, encourage vigorous debate, and utilize town halls and panels of experts in the policy-making process. Beyond the accomplishments, the process is good for democracy and our democratic processes have been battered and bruised in recent years. <br />
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Let me know if I missed anything in the list (surely I did).<br />
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1. Ordered all federal agencies to undertake a study and make recommendations for ways to cut spending<br />
2. Ordered a review of all federal operations to identify and cut wasteful spending and practices<br />
3. Instituted enforcement for equal pay for women<br />
4. Beginning the withdrawal of US troops from Iraq<br />
5. Families of fallen soldiers have expenses covered to be on hand when the body arrives at Dover AFB<br />
6. Ended media blackout on war casualties; reporting full information<br />
7. Ended media blackout on covering the return of fallen soldiers to Dover AFB; the media is now permitted to do so pending adherence to respectful rules and approval of fallen soldier's family<br />
8. The White House and federal government are respecting the Freedom of Information Act<br />
9. Instructed all federal agencies to promote openness and transparency as much as possible<br />
10. Limits on lobbyist's access to the White House<br />
11. Limits on White House aides working for lobbyists after their tenure in the administration<br />
12. Ended the previous stop-loss policy that kept soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan longer than their enlistment date<br />
13. Phasing out the expensive F-22 war plane and other outdated weapons systems, which weren't even used or needed in Iraq/Afghanistan<br />
14. Removed restrictions on embryonic stem-cell research<br />
15. Federal support for stem-cell and new biomedical research<br />
16. New federal funding for science and research labs<br />
17. States are permitted to enact federal fuel efficiency standards above federal standards<br />
18.. Increased infrastructure spending (roads, bridges, power plants) after years of neglect<br />
19. Funds for high-speed, broadband Internet access to K-12 schools<br />
20. New funds for school construction<br />
21. The prison at Guantanamo Bay is being phased out<br />
22. US Auto industry rescue plan<br />
23. Housing rescue plan<br />
24. $789 billion economic stimulus plan<br />
25. The public can meet with federal housing insurers to refinance (the new plan can be completed in one day) a mortgage if they are having trouble paying<br />
26. US financial and banking rescue plan<br />
27. The secret detention facilities in Eastern Europe and elsewhere are being closed<br />
28. Ended the previous policy; the US now has a no torture policy and is in compliance with the Geneva Convention standards<br />
29. Better body armor is now being provided to our troops<br />
30. The missile defense program is being cut by $1.4 billion in 2010<br />
31. Restarted the nuclear nonproliferation talks and building back up the nuclear inspection infrastructure/protocols<br />
32. Reengaged in the treaties/agreements to protect the Antarctic<br />
33. Reengaged in the agreements/talks on global warming and greenhouse gas emissions<br />
34. Visited more countries and met with more world leaders than any president in his first six months in office<br />
35. Successful release of US captain held by Somali pirates; authorized the SEALS to do their job<br />
36. US Navy increasing patrols off Somali coast<br />
37. Attractive tax write-offs for those who buy hybrid automobiles<br />
38. Cash for clunkers program offers vouchers to trade in fuel inefficient, polluting old cars for new cars; stimulated auto sales<br />
39. Announced plans to purchase fuel efficient American-made fleet for the federal government<br />
40. Expanded the SCHIP program to cover health care for 4 million more children<br />
41. Signed national service legislation; expanded national youth service program<br />
42. Instituted a new policy on Cuba, allowing Cuban families to return home to visit loved ones<br />
43. Ended the previous policy of not regulating and labeling carbon dioxide emissions<br />
44. Expanding vaccination programs<br />
45. Immediate and efficient response to the floods in North Dakota and other natural disasters<br />
46. Closed offshore tax safe havens<br />
47. Negotiated deal with Swiss banks to permit US government to gain access to records of tax evaders and criminals<br />
48. Ended the previous policy of offering tax benefits to corporations who outsource American jobs; the new policy is to promote in-sourcing to bring jobs back<br />
49. Ended the previous practice of protecting credit card companies; in place of it are new consumer protections from credit card industry's predatory practices<br />
50. Energy producing plants must begin preparing to produce 15% of their energy from renewable sources<br />
51. Lower drug costs for seniors<br />
52. Ended the previous practice of forbidding Medicare from negotiating with drug manufacturers for cheaper drugs; the federal government is now realizing hundreds of millions in savings<br />
53. Increasing pay and benefits for military personnel<br />
54. Improved housing for military personnel<br />
55. Initiating a new policy to promote federal hiring of military spouses<br />
56. Improved conditions at Walter Reed Military Hospital and other military hospitals<br />
57. Increasing student loans<br />
58. Increasing opportunities in AmeriCorps program<br />
59. Sent envoys to Middle East and other parts of the world that had been neglected for years; reengaging in multilateral and bilateral talks and diplomacy<br />
60. Established a new cyber security office<br />
61. Beginning the process of reforming and restructuring the military 20 years after the Cold War to a more modern fighting force; this includes new procurement policies, increasing size of military, new technology and cyber units and operations, etc.<br />
62. Ended previous policy of awarding no-bid defense contracts<br />
63. Ordered a review of hurricane and natural disaster preparedness<br />
64. Established a National Performance Officer charged with saving the federal government money and making federal operations more efficient<br />
65. Students struggling to make college loan payments can have their loans refinanced<br />
66. Improving benefits for veterans<br />
67. Many more press conferences and town halls and much more media access than previous administration<br />
68. Instituted a new focus on mortgage fraud<br />
69. The FDA is now regulating tobacco<br />
70. Ended previous policy of cutting the FDA and circumventing FDA rules<br />
71. Ended previous practice of having White House aides rewrite scientific and environmental rules, regulations, and reports<br />
72. Authorized discussions with North Korea and private mission by Pres. Bill Clinton to secure the release of two Americans held in prisons<br />
73. Authorized discussions with Myanmar and mission by Sen. Jim Web to secure the release of an American held captive<br />
74. Making more loans available to small businesses<br />
75. Established independent commission to make recommendations on slowing the costs of Medicare<br />
76. Appointment of first Latina to the Supreme Court<br />
77. Authorized construction/opening of additional health centers to care for veterans<br />
78. Limited salaries of senior White House aides; cut to $100,000<br />
79. Renewed loan guarantees for Israel<br />
80. Changed the failing/status quo military command in Afghanistan<br />
81. Deployed additional troops to Afghanistan<br />
82. New Afghan War policy that limits aerial bombing and prioritizes aid, development of infrastructure, diplomacy, and good government practices by Afghans<br />
83. Announced the long-term development of a national energy grid with renewable sources and cleaner, efficient energy production<br />
84. Returned money authorized for refurbishment of White House offices and private living quarters<br />
85. Paid for redecoration of White House living quarters out of his own pocket<br />
86. Held first Seder in White House<br />
87. Attempting to reform the nation's healthcare system which is the most expensive in the world yet leaves almost 50 million without health insurance and millions more under insured<br />
88. Has put the ball in play for comprehensive immigration reform<br />
89. Has announced his intention to push for energy reform<br />
90. Has announced his intention to push for education reform<br />
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Oh, and he built a swing set for the girls outside the Oval Office <br />
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((also Nobel prize 'winner,' premature but well on track for all that has and will further ensue.<br />
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Increasing possibilities for around 40 million more Amercian citizens to obtain some Health cover.<br />
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Brought together and inspiring communication with multi world leaders and aides. Bringing them 'together. to work for change.' A new initiative is growing in the wake of these efforts, and trust is slowly growing world wide.<br />
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There are many more attainments that add up to posiitve move towards change. and change for the better.<br />
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There are other unfortunate items that he COULD NOT change owing to strong internal opposition by the 'darker hats.' These will have to be redealt with a little later when the internal climate/opposition is less aggressive and more favourable, allowing the greater changes to flow through. I'm sure they will, time is of the essence.. and it will take the Obama team another term in office to obtain ever greater resulting changes.

And who will you trust to do that and NOT be corrupted? Who will determine what jobs people get? Who will determine what is "adequate"? And since this Socialist Government of yours is now all powerful, who will have a say in what "everyone's rights and liberties" will be? Who will determine what a "basic human need" is? And when you feel like this new Government has gone down so many roads you do not agree with, how will you regain your freedom and liberties then? <br />
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If I could be the one to set all those then great, let us do it. But, that will not be the case. <br />
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I was not comparing Russia to Canada (or any other modern form of Government) Gramps. I was using historical situations where Socialism and it's ilk were used and the outcomes. Don't try to compare brain pans with me and since I see nothing from you about your experiences in other parts of the world I am assuming you base your knowlege off what you have read? <br />
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So, just give me your list of 10 Americans who you would like to make all those decisions for the rest of us and let's go from there?<br />
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I am interested in hearing how you came to believe and trust in Socialism but if this gets to upseting for you please let me know and I will stop responding. I don't believe I will convince you of anything but I'd like to still debate.

Comparing a modern democratic socialist government to a totalitarian state like the former Soviet Union is about the same as comparing it to Hitler's Germany. Just because someone uses the term socialist doesn't make it socialist.<br />
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Plus, I really don't care.<br />
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About the only thing a modern democratic socialist government needs to do is make sure everyone who is able to work has a decent paying job, that everyone's basic human needs are being met, and that a public utility model is utilized whenever doing so makes the most sense to provide the most cost efficient goods and services to its citizens. That and making sure everyone's rights and liberties are protected by law.

Why thank you Hammerhead :) And Gramps...I don't mean to be confrontational. I respect your opinion and should have said so at the beginning. I simply disagree based on my experiences traveling the world as my job requires. <br />
Most of the time I find myself talking to a Socialist living in America they are passionate about what they speak but have not spent a lot of time outside the Americas. You really have to see, feel, and breath the countries where Socialism has spread it's taint. <br />
I speak Russian and Farsi. I have talked in length for years with older Russians who lived under a Government run system. Every one of them admited it killed the Russian people's spirit. When their Government no longer "took care of them" they discovered that most Russians were almost incapable of taking care of themselves. Their mentality for decades was to do the minimum because there was no benefit to doing any more. It goes on and on. <br />
Just please consider this when you call yourself a "flag waving American Patriot" but then tell us you want America to be something it was never meant to be...a Socialist nation.<br />
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Wow, I love Socialists. I've spent a great deal of time working in Eastern Block countries and have seen first hand how "great" socialism is. <br />
I also am related to a few Canandian citizens and they have less than outstanding things to say about their health care system. It is all in perceptions. <br />
In order to have freedom and liberty there must be the burden of responsibility. American Socialists don't want to talk about the horrible decisions most Americans have made that put them at risk of having no health care, being homeless, or being considered at or below the poverty line (which is a joke when I saw how the average person lived in almost all the former Socialist nations). <br />
You might be willing to give up your freedom and liberty in exchange for the safety of a small group of people in our Government making decisions for us. Have you seriously looked at the people in our Government? You want to put even MORE decision making authority in their hands? Really? You must not think much of yourselves.<br />
If you want to make a fellow American's life better then get off your *** and go help your neighbor. That is the type of "wellfare" system we need. Not a Government ran by corrupt wealthy who will tell us all how we will live. <br />
Once you sell off your Freedom, where in the world will you go when you decide you'd like to make decisions for yourself, good or bad, and live with the consequences, good or bad? <br />
Our system is not without negatives. No system is. But I'd take our's over pure Socialism any day. <br />

Remember the fight for freedom at Concord and taxation without representation. We are at the crossroads of losing our freedoms and becoming socialist. What a shame. We had the best system in the world and we through it away..

I love my country too, onlinegrandpa, but I am not blind either. Those who are MOST blind are those who refuse to see. They refuse to see those in this country who cannot afford to see a doctor, who cannot afford to retire, who are homeless, who are fighting in foreign countries, who are taxed far more heavily than those with far more money....<br />
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We enjoy many freedoms in the US, but this does not mean we could not do a better job of looking after each other... I do not see myself as a citizen in a vacuum, I see myself as a one citizen among many. As long as some of my fellow citizens are suffering, then I too suffer. <br />
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Why are we more concerned with property rights than with human rights? Why do we worry more about Corporate Freedom than freedom from want?

I notice how those who like to criticize democratic socialist countries always seem to miss all those nice folks in Scandinavian countries who are healthy, happy, and full of human spirit. They also don't want to talk about our Canadian neighbors. <br />
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And I only suggested that the guy from India might check out Canada because they have a better health care system and their government is more efficient than ours. That doesn't mean I don't "love" my country. It means I'm not blind.

Who are you talking about specifically? The extremists in our country? If that is your point then I'm sure everyone who is not an extremist shares your point of view. But it seems you are suggesting just the whackos on the far right? I hope you are including ALL the extremists from both sides.<br />
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Have you studies what happens to the people in Democratic Socialist society? It looks great on paper and sounds great in theory but in practice it kills the human spirit. We are not machines and no human group on this planet has ever thrives with others having so much control over their lives and decisions. <br />
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I like the way our Gov now encorporates some of the Socialist agenda. We have a responsibility to provide for the most vulnerable in our society. But, there needs to be a balance so we do not give so much power to our Government that it controls our lives to such an extent as to take away our freedoms and liberties. <br />
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Peace <br />
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Also, don't call yourself a "flag waving American Patriot" when you are encouraging others to seek employment in Canada since they are so much better that America. <br />
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Here we go again, gramps., same pla<x>yers, even,..right, noshadow?<br />
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Okay, I am a socialist, in ideology, i am a registered democrat, that's the way it's done, in the Great commonwealth, of Pennsylvania...My father totes a gun, and, my son in law, is a hunter, and, ?<br />
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So? <br />
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Obammy is not a Christian,? ot a liberal ***????, I am beginnoing to think, that hatred begins, in the Womb, of , the mothers, that...HATE, ****, AND NON CHRISTIANS, AND, ...MOSTLY, THEMSELVES..HALLELUJAH, THANKEE JESUS, AS MY SOUTHERN BAPTIST GFRANDADDY FROM ALABAMMY, USED TO SAY, ..He move up No-th, to get away, from the...oppressive, suthners...<br />
<br /> father has his picture, everywhere, and, the one he loves the best, <br />
has Obammy, sitting, with his feet, propped up on a hassock, reading a book...and, he's got holes, in the soles, of his shoes...but, ya'll fro, alabammy, btter, start picking up, yer ..oil pancakes..<br />
.and, <br />
that crazy democrat ..Landrieu, is crying, cause, Obammy, don't want to lift, that moratorium, on ...future drilling, until we can's safety...she should have her head...drillled, to release, her...hate.<br />
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thank you for letting me, share...chipperchick.

I'm more than happy to listen politely to anyone's views, about almost anything. Every so often, though, I have a tendency to open my mouth and vent. It's one thing if someone has a different viewpoint. It's another thing altogether when someone out and out lies. When people start spouting birth certificates, death panels, or that anyone, and I mean anyone, in our federal government wants to somehow take over our entire health care system, knowing how difficult that would be, knowing it would almost certainly be political suicide, I draw the line on politeness, meaning I will sometimes blow off steam.<br />
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I have no quarrel with fiscal frugality, not spending more than you take in, and spending money wisely. I do, however, have a problem with anyone who doesn't want our government to represent the People's interests when it comes to standing between us and corporations, in the same way I have a problem with anyone who doesn't want our government to do the very things government is supposed to do.<br />
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So, when we have 50,000 gallons of oil spewing into our precious Gulf, when we have possibly the greatest man made environmental disaster in history, where was the public policy that would have prevented this? Now I'm hearing it may take an entire lifetime for the Gulf to heal from this mess. Surprisingly, I don't blame BP. They were just doing what most corporations would do, looking at their bottom line and making as much money as they could possibly make. It's not the way I would do business, but I understand. No, I blame our government for not doing what government is supposed to do, represent our interests and regulate corporations so that the People are protected from their greed.<br />
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I feel that way about banks and insurance companies, too, and, as a Socialist, I would be so, so happy to see those two entities nationalized and run as public utilities.<br />
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As a Progressive and a Socialist, I expect our government to step up to the plate and perform those things that a government is required to do to represent our interests and welfare.<br />
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I'm more than willing to listen to free market Libertarians, though, and we can discuss matters of ideology all day long, it's an interesting way to spend time, but I come up short when people start uttering bold face lies. Hey, I understand the tactics. They want to win at any cost. Just don't expect me to turn a blind eye to that.<br />
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And please stop calling President Obama a Socialist. Doing that is offensive to Socialists. He's a Centrist Democrat, which is a whole lot closer to a Centrist Republican than it is to being a Socialist.<br />
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Rhetoric aside, President Reagan and President Clinton had more in common than they had differences and they were both Centrists, again, rhetoric aside.<br />
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I'll admit openly that I want a functioning Socialist government, but I put equal emphasis on "functioning" and "government." I support "family values," as long as that applies to all families. I support a woman's right to chose, even though I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea of abortion. I support equal rights for gays and lesbians, because they belong to the human race just the same as anyone else does. Even though I'm an atheist, I support the primary teachings of Jesus Christ and his message of love and forgiveness. That translates into compassion for everyone and that is fundamental to Socialism.<br />
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Now, back to the Gulf. Why don't we create a Civilian Conservation Corp, 100,000 strong, and send them down to the Gulf so they can clean things up? CCC worked well before and it could work just as well once again. Hey, let BP pay for it. There's a lot of work that needs to be done, and not just the Gulf. Once they finish cleaning up the Gulf, let's turn them loose one the rest of the country.

dear Grandpa.<br />
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I use to make comments, ...but, when that first hole, started a spurting', i wrote a beautiful story, about the gulf of Mexico, all, true...but, just to detract from all the poltics...and, the bullshit, that continues on... and no one gave a good ****, then, what I saw. Gee, grandpa. take it easy...forget these miscreants..I know you are right, in your views...Let them, who voted in the policy makers, from bush 1, to bush W, who took our country, and turned it into a big ugly bowl, of ....sludgie oil... <br />
Ya use to answer funny questions, enjoy yourself, or, ask alll of these contributors, who also squabbled about which prestigious school, they went add, their heads, to all of the other heads, and, stuff them selves, into the hole, in My gulf of Mexico. Or, maybe they can figure out, how to stop the spill...?<br />
Maybe they can figure out, why we have to go from green, [Water} to oil, ...I thought it was the opposite way,??? but, then, no one knows how long, those plumes, will continue, or, if they will ..EVER STOP.<br />
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Dammn grandpa, I don't know if you're going to win any followers with that kind of incendiary talk, but I appreciate that you're a patriotic American who's a socialist. People just don't get that there can be other views of what is right for the country we all share and ALL have responsibility for. I wish we could all work it out civilly, and I think some polite talks are in order. I know you're done with that, but I would at least encourage you to listen politely to anyone who comes to you with slightly different views than your own, but is ready to listen in return. We'll never get anywhere if we all shout and no one listens.

I wonder if anyone will get the Fight Club reference, V?

anyone else shocked that none of the conservative heroes on this thread have responded? <br />
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I'm Jack's complete lack of surprise.

At the moment US just breaking lives and homes .. they really do not know what are their motives .. what they want to prove or what they want to make..<br />
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Freedom Peace.. blah blah.. nothing like this.. ..<br />
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Wish Government will learn some thing positive .. if they really know how to learn from mistakes and histories..