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Are Women Really Treated Equally?

I saw a few people on the Experience Project saying that men and women are already equal. Well, check these facts out and see what you think:

1.Data on women’s/girls struggle for equality has gone missing in the Bush Administration. The current administration continues to engage in a pattern of omission, distortion, and spin when it comes to information about women and girls. Data on the Department of Labor website has gone missing and the FDA continues to block approval of Emergency Contraception despite research findings that support its use.

2.Women are still underpaid. Women earn only 77 cents to every dollar earned by men. (Former MA democratic Lt. Gov. Evelyn Murphy is doin great things to shake this up…check out www.womenaregettingeven.org) Also, can 1 million women against WalMart be hallucinating? This is serious!

3. Women are still massively underrepresented in the sciences. Despite substantial gains in the number of women pursuing graduate degrees in the sciences, women currently earn only 20% of all PhDs in computer science, less than 27% in physics, and only 17% in engineering. Studies show that women in science experience discrimination and double standards (sorry Larry Summers, but its really true.)

4. There are too few female tenured professors. Despite the fact that women have been at least half of all college undergraduates since 1978, women represent only 36% of all tenured faculty nationwide, and only 13% of doctoral granting universities boast women presidents. Many women in academic settings report discrimination.

5. Women are underrepresented in corporate leadership. Women have made up more than 40% of the workforce since 1977, and are currently almost 50%, yet only 9 women are CEOs of Fortune 500 companies. Too few women lawyers make partner. Women have been 40% of all law school students since 1995, and over half since 2001, but are only 15% of partners in law firms nationwide. Many female lawyers attest to double standards and discrimination.

6.: Stereotypes Abound!
Men still dominate the airwaves, music industry, film industry, etc, and are most decisionmakers and critics (often with a silent or not so silent male perspective.) Women make up only 11% of the national experts on Sunday morning political talk shows, and only 6% to 7% of the repeat guests. No major record label is headed by a woman. Most major film studios are headed by men, and nine out of ten music videos are produced by men. For the most part, women need to be sex objects and to be young to be successful in music and to some extent, films, TV. (Men,not so much…can you say Sean Connery? Harrison Ford? Woody Allen? David Letterman? Larry King?.) Women are chosen/allowed to direct only 5 - 7 % of major Hollywood films, and rarely are nominated for or win major awards for directing (despite nsome very talented female directors out there.) This is not just Hollywood insanity….it’s workplace discrimination.

7. Women are poorer. Women constitute about 70% of the world’s absolute poor – those living on less than a dollar a day. In the United States in 2004, there were 20.1 million women living below the poverty level. Worldwide, women’s access to resources and education still lags behind boys/men due to double standards.

8. Slavery still exists! Women and girls are the majority of the 800,000 to nearly 4 million people trafficked (bought and sold as property) internationally every year.
CallipygianVenus CallipygianVenus 18-21, F 49 Responses Feb 11, 2008

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I think we're closer to equal rights for men and women. Looks like both sides have benefits and downfalls. There could still be change that balances both sides, like paid leave for a new father. What I really think should be improved is gender roles. It's a societal thing more than a legal thing. I just feel like it would be nicer if what a guy should look and behave like and what a girl should look and behave like were less strict. Yeah you can shave your head or grow out your hair, cross dress, but you are probably going to be shunned by many more people than if you wore what your sex is SUPPOSED to wear. I probably sidetrack this way too much but I just wanted to say this.

No female infants are not circumcised in most of countries but male infants are circumcised so still women are not treated equally.
I think women should be circumcised too that's how the equality can be achieved.

That's not equal... or desirable.

it's indeed. in South East Asia girls are circumcised and they are muslims in there boys are also circumcised so I believe women in there have a better social reputation, equality than western women. in west women are forced to do certain thing against their own will. in west female circumcision is also banned for adults but what if an adult woman wants to get circumcised? she is not allowed legally so women are oppressed in state level in west and parents can't decide to circumcise their daughters like when it comes to male circumcision. it's wrong parents should have a right to circumcise their daughter like sons in west but currently it's only allowed in Islamic nations. the benefits of the female circumcision are including reduction of the ****** and improve the cleanness and reducing of the HIV up to 50%.
PROOF=>

"Stallings et al. (2005) reported that, in Tanzanian women,
the risk of HIV among women who had undergone FGC
was roughly half that of women who had not; the association
remained significant after adjusting for region, household
wealth, age, lifetime partners, union status, and recent ulcer."
---------------
The 2005 Stallings research is not the only research to find this link between female circumcision and lower HIV infections. Kanki et al found the same:

Kanki et al. reported that, in Senegalese prostitutes,
women who had undergone FGC had a significantly
decreased risk of HIV-2 infection when compared to
those who had not.

Kanki P, M'Boup S, Marlink R, et al. "Prevalence and risk
determinants of human immunodeficiency virus type 2
(HIV-2) and human immunodeficiency virus type 1
(HIV-1) in west African female prostitutes".
Am. J. Epidemiol. 136 (7): 895-907. PMID
-------------
****** in females: where does it occur?

In females, ****** is found between the labia, the lips which protect the vagina, and around the clitoral hood, which is at the top of the labia minora.

The truth is companies don't pay people enough regardless. You think that they are victimizing you because of your gender but I think that is a red herring.

Companies need to be forced to pay more.

OK... maybe it is a red maple.

So what should pay be based on?

i totally agree with everything you said!

i'm a man and I do believe in equality, women/girls shouldn't be held back by the sex barrier, please add me

I have a very feminist friend. This topic irritates me a bit, and personally, I think that men and women will always be fighting for equality BECAUSE men and women are different, no matter what society will always be pushing gender stereotypes, even if they differ and there will always be someone who thinks women should be in the kitchen and men should be cutting down trees. I think that women deserve to be acknowledged on an individual basis, not all women are the same and not all men are the same. Some women live their lives in the dream of being a housewife and doing household chores and raising her family and other women will tell those women that they are bad for that.
I've seen myself where men get treated rudely by female superiors and even equals in the workplace. This one guy who is gay works at a gas station, the only other people working at the time were women, and they made the comment "We're all girls here" and I found that to be quite rude. He's gay, not transexual. That comment implies that because he is gay means he is a "feminine man" which he is not.

Men and women AREN'T equal, but to me equality, in terms of how people are treated socially and legally, means acceptance. Men and Women aren't equal, but white women and black women aren't equal either, Native American men and Hispanic women aren't equal either. Heterosexuals and homosexuals are again, NOT EQUAL. I think we are a LONG way off from full equality. Society always needs someone to be on the bottom rung to feel better about itself, so really equality may never come. I know that most women's rights activists aren't saying that women are better than men, but a lot of the ones I know and the ones I read about seem to say so. There is no superior gender and there is no superior race. All there is, is people. Plain and simple. I never use gender specific pronouns or race specific pronouns unless referring to someone specifically. The easiest way to get everyone on equal grounds is to act like everyone is already equal, to not ask a man to carry something heavy because he is a man (unless you have a bad back and he is the only one around and CAN carry it). If you go out on a date, split the bill or if you are going to a movie too then have one person pay for the food and the other the movie.

Men on average pay more after a divorce. Men on average have more dependents to support. Men die earlier and are more likely to have a major injury on the job. The E.R.A. was a proposed amendment to the constitution that would have made men and women equal under the law. (Because they currently are not) This was defeated by women when they realized that this would be terrible for women. You can't demand equality of all the beneficial stuff and not the detrimental stuff that goes along with it. Look it up and stop bitching.

treating women fairly. i heard the president basically say that he wants to see to it that women don't get the short end of the stick. he wants women to be treated fairly. let me just say that any employer who suggests that women should get less of a paycheck is an employer who obviously thinks little of womens' potential.<br />
<br />
i believe that treating women fairly means realizing their potential, not lying about it for the sake of those who can't handle the truth. that is the plain-and-simple fact of the matter. treating women fairly means realizing their potential - their TRUE potential. the true potential of womanhood.<br />
<br />
likewise, it must be said that treating women fairly means realizing the potential of disability. treating women fairly means realizing the reasons for gender-ba<x>sed sports teams (not to mention gender-ba<x>sed military requirements, gender-ba<x>sed hot dog eating competitions, gender-ba<x>sed fitness centers and gender-ba<x>sed parking spaces meant for women carrying an extra 7 pounds and not for men who are going to be carrying 40 pounds of rocks to the car).<br />
<br />
truly treating women fairly means realizing femininity as the short end of the stick, it doesn't mean preventing them from realizing themselves by overcompensating for them with words like "a woman can do anything a man can do" and things like gender-ba<x>sed sports teams. it's not fair to lie to women just to placate their visions of "wonder woman". things are always so gender-ba<x>sed nowadays, nobody even gets the message that is being sent by basing things on gender - the message that women should not compete against men if they want to excel. sure, there are spelling bees that aren't gender-ba<x>sed, but i'm talking about physical competitions which are always gender-ba<x>sed. which brings to mind a "women vs. men" fitness competition at the ymca.<br />
<br />
...it was was only cardio.<br />
<br />
treating women fairly means realizing femininity as the shorter gender - the husbands of female schoolteachers (and even some adolescent students in school) have no choice but to look down upon the female because females predominately are of lesser height. females are also predominately of lesser width since adolescence, when their hips widened to accommodate childbirth (as the young mens' shoulders widened to...well, let's just say to accommodate carrying more than a watermelon over the threshold). lesser height, lesser width...maybe there IS a lesser gender. all i know is that there was a song in 1991 called "things that make you go hmn...". so, am i your freedom williams? i sure want a washboard like he had.<br />
<br />
treating women fairly does not mean giving them a false sense of self. actually, even if their sense of self is improved because it's a little more masculine, the truth is that femininity is being overcompensated for with words like "a woman can do anything a man can do". the truth is that a woman simply cannot do anything a man can do, much like a man cannot do anything a woman can do. a woman's body was designed for motherhood, from the milk-faucets upstairs to the bloody egg-faucet downstairs that doesn't shut off unless there's a bun in the oven (that was implanted by the seed of a man, might i add). a woman's body was not designed to carry 40 pounds of rocks out to the car, "i carried a watermelon" was a line that jennifer grey had in dirty dancing - and there's no shame in that. there's no shame in being physically disabled, there's no shame in being a masculine dysfunction (unless you're a gay "man," but gawking wide-eyed and open-mouthed at another member of one's gender is more a dysfunction of identity). come to think of it, the female who thinks she can do anything a man can do is as much a matter of dysfunctional gender-identity as the masculivoid who doesn't feel whole unless his *** is being filled up by the masculine gender.<br />
<br />
hmn...sometimes i am my own freedom williams (without the washboard). sometimes, things just dawn on me and make me go "hmn..." - like this one time, at band camp, when i put "womb" and "man" together to arrive at "woman".<br />
<br />
yes, i amaze myself. both with my wit and with my ability to offend wombn. maybe the "traumatic brain injury" that i had in 1990 didn't leave my brain totally dysfunctional. just a little eccentric, and i'm fine with that.<br />
<br />
dylan terreri, i<br />
www.dylansbraininjury.com<br />
www.jaggedlittledyl.com, LLC

treating women fairly. i heard the president basically say that he wants to see to it that women don't get the short end of the stick. he wants women to be treated fairly. let me just say that any employer who suggests that women should get less of a paycheck is an employer who obviously thinks little of womens' potential.<br />
<br />
i believe that treating women fairly means realizing their potential, not lying about it for the sake of those who can't handle the truth. that is the plain-and-simple fact of the matter. treating women fairly means realizing their potential - their TRUE potential. the true potential of womanhood.<br />
<br />
likewise, it must be said that treating women fairly means realizing the potential of disability. treating women fairly means realizing the reasons for gender-ba<x>sed sports teams (not to mention gender-ba<x>sed military requirements, gender-ba<x>sed hot dog eating competitions, gender-ba<x>sed fitness centers and gender-ba<x>sed parking spaces meant for women carrying an extra 7 pounds and not for men who are going to be carrying 40 pounds of rocks to the car).<br />
<br />
truly treating women fairly means realizing femininity as the short end of the stick, it doesn't mean preventing them from realizing themselves by overcompensating for them with words like "a woman can do anything a man can do" and things like gender-ba<x>sed sports teams. it's not fair to lie to women just to placate their visions of "wonder woman". things are always so gender-ba<x>sed nowadays, nobody even gets the message that is being sent by basing things on gender - the message that women should not compete against men if they want to excel. sure, there are spelling bees that aren't gender-ba<x>sed, but i'm talking about physical competitions which are always gender-ba<x>sed. which brings to mind a "women vs. men" fitness competition at the ymca.<br />
<br />
...it was was only cardio.<br />
<br />
treating women fairly means realizing femininity as the shorter gender - the husbands of female schoolteachers (and even some adolescent students in school) have no choice but to look down upon the female because females predominately are of lesser height. females are also predominately of lesser width since adolescence, when their hips widened to accommodate childbirth (as the young mens' shoulders widened to...well, let's just say to accommodate carrying more than a watermelon over the threshold). lesser height, lesser width...maybe there IS a lesser gender. all i know is that there was a song in 1991 called "things that make you go hmn...". so, am i your freedom williams? i sure want a washboard like he had.<br />
<br />
treating women fairly does not mean giving them a false sense of self. actually, even if their sense of self is improved because it's a little more masculine, the truth is that femininity is being overcompensated for with words like "a woman can do anything a man can do". the truth is that a woman simply cannot do anything a man can do, much like a man cannot do anything a woman can do. a woman's body was designed for motherhood, from the milk-faucets upstairs to the bloody egg-faucet downstairs that doesn't shut off unless there's a bun in the oven (that was implanted by the seed of a man, might i add). a woman's body was not designed to carry 40 pounds of rocks out to the car, "i carried a watermelon" was a line that jennifer grey had in dirty dancing - and there's no shame in that. there's no shame in being physically disabled, there's no shame in being a masculine dysfunction (unless you're a gay "man," but gawking wide-eyed and open-mouthed at another member of one's gender is more a dysfunction of identity). come to think of it, the female who thinks she can do anything a man can do is as much a matter of dysfunctional gender-identity as the masculivoid who doesn't feel whole unless his *** is being filled up by the masculine gender.<br />
<br />
hmn...sometimes i am my own freedom williams (without the washboard). sometimes, things just dawn on me and make me go "hmn..." - like this one time, at band camp, when i put "womb" and "man" together to arrive at "woman".<br />
<br />
yes, i amaze myself. both with my wit and with my ability to offend wombn. maybe the "traumatic brain injury" that i had in 1990 didn't leave my brain totally dysfunctional. just a little eccentric, and i'm fine with that.<br />
<br />
dylan terreri, i<br />
www.dylansbraininjury.com<br />
www.jaggedlittledyl.com, LLC

This is like that stupid "documentary", Super Size Me.

Women globally are the most oppressed group in the world. So many cultures want boys. Women circumcision, rape, force and arranged marriages, working unpaid, not allowed to receive education, burning, domestic violence, prejudice, kidnapping, white slavery, postitution, cutting and physical abuse, poverty, brutal divorce and so many others issue to heavy to ignore. Only children are the poorest on the planet.

I lived through the infancy of the women's movement, and consider feminism a lifesaver, but women have to get into a position where no one can take advantage of them. Why do we allow circumcision, slavery, domestic violence? Instead of begging a government for change, we have to be the ones to CREATE the government, to write the constitution, to make the laws. Then we will be safe. Can you imagine a bunch of men letting women write a constitution for them? Legislate the laws of government? Never. Women have to do the same. Be there in the beginning, at the root of the culture.

Women are in some part of their own oppression. Being followers of these traditions. Women and men need to stand up to these evils. Women just like man was and is part takers of this godly responsibility. Man was given dominion over the fish, fowl, cattle, over the earth and creeping things creeping upon the earth. Your lions, tiger, and elephant tamers. You ride horses. The dolphins hear and respond to the voice of women. Bears running around in circle in the circus. What your not able to do if you put your mind to it. You have imagination to built or destroy. You don't dunk the basketball like a man does but your able. Your not running like the guys yet your able. Your not lifting like the guys but your able. Evil exist because of good men allowing evil to exist. The same is true. Evil exists because good women allow it to exist. Evil men by physical forcefulness create a world, traditions and cultures oppression women and harming men by wanting conquer over the other.

Men are the most dispensable members of any society.<br />
<br />
Titanic anyone?

Men have always been treated as disposable. The military has been all men until recently, men are always expected to do the dangerous jobs because they have always been more dispensable. It wouldn't take many men to keep the population going...so they are considered 'extras.'

Well here's a thing I noticed.<br />
<br />
After school, guys are more likely go for fields like engineering, IT, sciences, math.<br />
And those who take the healthcare route, are more likely to continue high studies.<br />
<br />
Those are highly paid professions.<br />
<br />
While women are more likely to go for fields like psychology, sociology, child dvlpt, English, business...etc <br />
<br />
Those are less paid professions.<br />
<br />
Besides, there are more homeless men than women in this world:<br />
http://library.thinkquest.org/10374/html/facts.html<br />
<br />
and homeless men remain like that for longer time and more likely to be in worse conditions:<br />
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8243048<br />
<br />
<br />
Fact is, that a woman who is broken or very poor would still have the chance to find a man who would support her financially. While broken men usually find no partner, most women want to marry UP after all, not marry down, so these men end up homeless. <br />
<br />
And the world's recession is affecting the typical men's jobs more than the typical women's jobs.<br />
<br />
In wars, and in most civilizations, young men are the dispensable tools by the governments/rulers. <br />
<br />
Believe me OP, the men's world isn't rosy as well.

The whole sucks one way or another, we just want it to suck a bit less lol.

Equal Opportunities not provided. BIG LIE! In fact women are preferred for recruitment in colleges.(At least in IITs). There was this company I applied for where 90 males and 10 females appeared for 10 positions. Guess what! 4 of the selected candidates were females.<br />
<br />
Dont dare to say that women aren't given equal opportunities.

Men and women are mostly equal. Its just they are not equal in the ways you want them to be. For instance in the family courts everything is skewed towards women un-equally (child-support). In the dating scene women are not expected to pay much. In the workplace and military women are not expected to do the dangerous jobs. So it's all a wash, it's equal but not the sense you want them to be; everything finds a balance.

You're right.<br />
Equal rights for women still aren't fully developed, but when people adress this, the response is often that this is just an redicolous idea, and then they say how it used to be worse 50 years ago. <br />
But girls are educated to be afraid sooner then boys, to take less risk, be less competitive, and to speak their mind less, even in developed countries with equal rights in the law.<br />
But because it's psychological and not directly visible in law, a lot of people see it as a lie.<br />
And ofcourse it's not true that ALL woman are brought up that way, it's an overall picture.

The feminist movement has resulted in more women having to support themselves. Women used to be largely supported by their husbands and family. Now men can't get jobs and women have to support themselves. <br />
<br />
Because of this women do not value relationships as much as they used to. <br />
<br />
Since men no longer need to support a woman to **** her they mostly just **** them. <br />
<br />
Feminism has screwed up the world and you still complain about pennies on the dollar that you aren't getting paid.

I have had lots of really negative experiences with women professors and supervisors. I found most to be cold and bitter to the extent that they couldn't function professionally. I am married to a professional woman and I have known several women who were much more capable at traditionally male jobs than almost anyone on the planet. That includes my grandmother. My point is: Women cry that they are poorly treated, but maybe, it's because they just can't hack it.

Well, gender equality depends on society, people's mentality, education etc.

wommen will always be of value to man, but never equal because of the physical.

Women who do the job of a man as well as a man should be paid as well as a man ..But we are not the same..

I kinda understand your point, women are not treated as equally as men. race comes into it too

AND he has NO COLLEGE education I DO; but, he makes more than 4 times in salary than I have ever been offered!!!!!

NO THEY ARE NOT! I have been working long enough to know that and they are still hired, promoted and given raises ba<x>sed on how they look! FACT! Just ask my brother-n-law who only hires attractive women to work for him!

ummm.. your brother is a ***** hound.

If a woman comes up to me and hits me hard enough to cause real damage, she can expect retaliation, at least legal, if not physical. Just because someone is fragile, even for the sake of argument, doesn't mean they can go around hitting people. Women aren't exempt from getting a retaliatory punch if they try to break your nose. Besides, all physical advantages and disadvantages are neutralized the moment you get any sort of weapon. A beer bottle to the head is just as effective coming from a woman as it is from a man.

I believe that everyone should be equal...and most of us here probably do. But unfortunately, in our world today, there is no real equality...In America, we still have social classes. We have people who live on welfare, we have people who are homeless, and at the same time we have people who make minimum wage and live paycheck to paycheck barely able to get by, and finally we have the upscale people who live in mansions who get paid for doing a lot less than that person that lives paycheck to paycheck. There are no equal rights, because cops profile and businesses discriminate against who they are hire and don't hire. <br />
<br />
This may sound sexist, so anyone who this offends I apologize, and it is not my intention. This is something that has been bothering me for years. Not very many people actually want equality, many people only want to be treated better than they are. For example, which is a very sexist one and that is why I apologized, but it was the first thing that came to mind because I first started thinking about it while watching the beginning scenes of Boondock Saints. But say, a woman says she is being treated on fairly because she doesn't get treated like a man does. Now, not all women are as fragile as many people may assume. I know some really tough women. For the sake of this example, let's say she is. If this woman were to complain for equal rights, and she gets the treated like a man does...does that mean that it is morally acceptable to punch her in the face? If a guy comes up to me and punches me in the face I'm going to fight him, but if a women punches me in the face...I'm not going to hit her back. I may try to restrain her, but I would certainly not attempt to fight her back to cause her any harm. It's because I believe it's wrong to hit women, but women don't complain about that in their arguments for equal rights. Now I'm not saying we should all just go around and beat up women to show them they don't want equal rights. I'm saying, people don't realize what they are truely asking for.<br />
<br />
Don't take this situation as negative as I put it, but use it more as an equation. Sidenote: I'm really only violent when provoked. Back to the point, look at this as Pethagoreum's Theorum (sorry if that is spelled wrong). "A" = Violence; "B" = Women; "C" = Equal Rights...A+B=C...<br />
<br />
Apply this equation to other scenarios were "C" would be Equal Rights...there are so many problems like this in the world. It's really tough to really gain full equality because people will complain when they get what they ask for because as humans we want more of what is better for our ownselves. We are selfish creatures...It's human nature. Unfortunately for the anarchist that I am, there are not many people who are really able to break from that path which nature set us on. I'm not saying I'm better than anyone, I'm just saying that we can all be equal if everyone were able to let go of the petty crap that we "want" and focus on what we actually need...

everyone has different morals..... would it be morally wrong if a man or woman punche anyone in the face. a got a cap in their ***??? it is not legal to do either. morals...lmao.

Agreed lol. no discrimination means no *positive* discrimination too. As an aside I'd more offended by a guy NOT wanting to punch me.

Very well argued, Fourier. I am pretty sure that those who have the ability to go beyond the first sentence and understand the points you make will agree with you, or will at least have something to think about. <br />
<br />
The circular argument that less representation of women in public domain indicates they are not capable of it and therefore we need not bother about equal opportunities is well, circular and therefore immune to logical arguments.

Thank you. Your inability to respond to any of my arguments and your continual repetition of a completely irrelevant (and factually incorrect) argument showcases the weaknesses in your case well enough. <br />
<br />
The snarky little ad hominem addition confirms it.

No ... I did not read your comment beyond the first sentance. Anyone who thinks achitecture is not ba<x>sed in hard science is either very ignorant ... or a liar. An architect must choose every material he uses carefully ba<x>sed on the stresses they can handle. Architecture is very strongly ba<x>sed on math and physics... Achitects are architectural engineers. Makes me suspicious you are so ignorant on this. I can't believe you have a clue what you are talking about. An architect made an error in his mathmetic calculations on a cantelever cement balcony in a building and 30 people died. Architectural design can kill you if the achitecture ENGINEER miscalculates. Not hard science? You must be looking to work for the government ... Civil service people get promoted due to their ignorance ...<br />
There are many kinds of "engineers" ... software engineering for example is not ba<x>sed in math or physics. You do not need a strong background in math for many "soft" engineering dregrees.<br />
What I consistently observe is a lowering of standards to "accomodate" "minorites" or women so they can "compete" for "Opportunities" and it is killing this country.

@missjulie<br />
"Take a college physics class"<br />
Have I not explained to you that I'm an engineering student? I've taken plenty of physics courses. Have you even read my comment beyond the first sentence?<br />
<br />
I know perfectly well what an architect is and I also know that architecture is NOT considered a conventional hard-science career because a large part of an architect's job comprises of design and aesthetic aspects, as opposed to purely practical applications of scientific theory (which is what mechanical and civil engineers do). An architect is not an "engineer first". Architecture is not a specialized field of engineering - it is a completely different field with different goals. Sure, they have to know basic mechanical engineering concepts but most of the stress/load characteristics etc are handled by specialist engineers who are a part of the team, not architects themselves. You have still not answered any of my questions, nor refuted any of my arguments. Resorting to ad hominem doesn't help your case any more than your original straw man argument.<br />
<br />
Also, if you want to take the hard sciences argument forward, then tell me why the majority of celebrity chefs and fashion designers are also men? Women are supposed to be better at artistic stuff. Where's your Gordon Ramsay equivalent, then? Where's your female Mozart? Why are all the famous painters men? <br />
<br />
The distortion in numbers are not caused by unequal skills but by unequal opportunities. You'd do well to realize that. <br />
<br />
@gigglets<br />
I don't think there ever WILL be perfect equality. Nor is it necessary to engineer something like that. What we should strive towards instead is equal opportunity. Even if you have already achieved that in America, as you claim, the vast majority of the world (which lives in Asia and Africa) has not.

I vote for fourier to run for president.

Architechture is not hard science? That says it all about your knowledge and education level. An architect is not an interior designer ... an architect must be very knowledgeable in physics or buildings and bridges collapse An architect must first be an engineer. ... Take a college physics class ... see how many females there are...

In any case, all this is quite irrelevant. My original point was about equal OPPORTUNITIES, not some kind of perfect, utopian, <i>enforced</i> equality. It's a fact that there are 8 men for every one woman with an IQ greater than 145. The statistical spread of intelligence levels in males is much flatter, spread throughout the spectrum (which also means, of course that there are far more dumb men than dumb women). The spread for women is concentrated at the average. An enforced equality is neither necessary, nor desirable. There will probably always be more male Nobel prize winners than women in Physics. I should remind you here, though, that in the overwhelming majority of jobs, a five point difference in raw IQ is completely insignificant in comparison to other factors, such as multitasking skills, diligence, communication skills and so forth. <br />
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What I am talking about here is that every child needs to be given an equal <b>opportunity</b>. In my country and many others, such opportunities are often denied to women. Or sometimes, they are subtly discouraged from particular careers. That is what I'm against. If opportunities are equal and equally talented people from both genders recieve similar rewards, my purpose would be achieved. Once that happens, I don't care how many women CHOOSE to become lawyers and how many want to be hairdressers. Individuals are not statistics. People must be judged by <b>their</b> abilities and not that of their whole gender.

Your IQ facts are wrong. No such statistics.

Architecture isn't hard science.<br />
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"Look at the engineers..."<br />
My own girlfriend is a better engineering student than me. Better grade point average, better GPA, better everything. She's no "exceptional" woman. I bet there are hundreds of thousands like her. <br />
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You're begging the question. I told you to provide me evidence that equal ability is "PC bullshit" and you provide me with a long rant, the crux of which is that there are more men in hard sciences, therefore men must be more capable in the field. Really? Is that it? There are far more women in home economics. Does that mean men can't sew and cook as well as women? If women are so bad at science and if feminists were so wrong all along, then please explain to me why the percentage of female engineers and doctors has drastically increased and continues to increase from what it used to be. Why hasn't it remained the same as say, the 1940s, when there were few feminists and the separated gender roles you advocate were in full flourish? How about Victorian times? How about the Medieval era?<br />
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You make a lot of assertions but provide no facts to back up those assertions.<br />
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I have already explained to you why women's sports are separate - it's scientifically demonstrable that the large majority of women have lower muscle strength than men and therefore, they are at a distinct disadvantage. Nothing of the sort can be said of scientific ability, of legal competence, of artistic merit and in general, of any skill-ba<x>sed field. <br />
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In any case, the women's category in sports is hardly "equal" to the men's category, either in terms of profile or cashflows. <br />
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Do you know what is irrational? When you take one fact and try to make a generalized claim by extrapolating it to everything else, that is irrational. Yes, women are physically weaker (in general). No, that does not mean that many of them cannot meet the military's required standards of fitness. That doesn't mean they can't make good lawyers. That doesn't mean that female directors are rubbish. And it certainly doesn't mean that most of us would hesitate to trust a neurosurgeon with our lives just because she happens to have an extra X chromosome.

@fourier ... You, like most others, have fallen for the feminist PC claptrap that passes for intelectual enlightenment ... Put away your PC rulebook and shelve your desire that everyone is equal ... That is a socialist utopian dream, not ba<x>sed in reality. Look at the engineers, physicists, mathmaticians, architects ... Males dominate the "Hard" science degrees and careers. That is not to say there are no exceptional women ... but .logical evidence has to be disgarded or at least painted over by PC paint to deny the truth. Milions of people fell for the femininist lie that boys and girls are equal, and only the discriminitaory way patriarchal society raised girls and boys differently accounted for the difference in the mindsets of the genders. Yes they exclaimed ... give boys dolls and tea sets, and giver girls toy trucks and ba<x>seball bats and toy guns, and females would be the dominate gender and males the submissive gender... Millions of liberal parents fell for it ... and gave ther children gender "neutral" toys ... and despite their efforts .. just couldn't change the differences we were natuarally born with. The femininists were shown to be SO wrong ... and yet their voices are still given credibility in our Liberal halls of higher learning. It is BUNK .. Women could not handle equality .. Let's do away with WOMEN"S sports .. why must women be protected from male competition? Why do we even have a woman winner in a marathn race where she is directly competing with men ... yet when the first woman crosses the finish line after 20 men have finished ahead of her .. she is declared a winner? How is it equality when only females are given the option of when and where they get to compete, and when and where they get to exclude male competition? How is that equal? How can anyone give credence to those who claim women must be protected from male competition on the tennis court, but then claim women can compete with men on the battlefield? It is irrational.

Of course everyone isn't equal, some people are born ugly, frail and dumb while others are smart, strong and beautiful, life has a genetic lottery, some do ok, some win, some lose. The point of feminism ( and w/e anti-racism groups are called ) is that everyone be judged on their actual worth, or at least that's what it is to me. But honestly I don't see that happening anywhere soon, because it's not discouraged, if anything it's the opposite. It's human nature to shun differences; that may have been useful about 20 000 something years ago but now that makes people detestable.

Dear, equality doesn't mean we all are the same. No one ever said women are the same as men in sports-that's why we have our own category. Boxing is a perfect example; the smaller men compete with each other, and the heavyweights with other heavyweights. You wouldn't see a heavyweight fight a bantamweight, because evryone knows what would happen. With men and women, no one has ever pretended they are physically equal. If they were, men could give birth, but they lack the capability. No one expects them to-no one thinks less of them because they lack a uterus.
For the fastest female runner to be considered a loser because other men beat her, would be like saying a man is useless because he can't have babies. Or, a bantamweight boxing champion really isn't a champion because a middleweight could beat him. We all compete in our own arenas.

@missjulie<br />
That's a straw man, all right.<br />
No one's saying men and women have to be equal in each and every respect. They should be equal in places where they both have equal capabilities. <br />
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It's a recognized fact that men tend to have greater muscular strength than women. If you can prove that men make better lawyers and movie directors, then your argument would have some substance.

In my neck of the woods, sadly, we're several decades away from achieving even this much.<br />
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I come from a society where a significant percentage of marriages are still ba<x>sed on the fact that the woman can cook well, clean better, and is basically content being a glorified maid. <br />
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Patriarchy cannot be eliminated overnight. It takes time, effort and will. Talking about gender inequality is not just political correctness either. Sexism is not a salary difference. Sexism is an attitude. Most countries have effective laws which protect women from discrimination at the workplace. But you cannot legislate against an attitude. You cannot legislate against parents who instill these attitudes in their daughters and sons. Even in the liberal West, sexist attitudes are hardly uncommon and are, in many circles, considered quite acceptable. <br />
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I personally believe in what Mahatma Gandhi once said - "men and women should be seen as equal, but not identical". There is no point in pretending that men and women are identical, because they simply aren't. There are physical differences, possibly psychological differences. That's a fact. The discrimination starts when one starts using this fact to make broad generalizations and then acts ba<x>sed on these generalizations. People need to be considered on a case-to-case basis, not on the basis of their gender or ethnicity or whatever. If a particular person fits the profile for a job and has the required skills/abilities, I fail to see why the gender should be considered relevant. The average woman is physically weaker than the average man but that doesn't mean that the woman sitting in front of you HAS to be unfit for any kind of physically demanding job. An average is an average - it's not an all encompassing, blanket figure that describes every single person in the group.

To nato84:<br />
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You are the exact reason why webpages like this are published. Reread what you have written and tell me you were not just assuming that women have jobs like being secretary and complain to their husbands. Umm, that would be stereotyping buddy . You are trying to argue against this page when you are actually proving it correct. <br />
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The following does not regard nato84:<br />
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Being a high school student, I do see a lot of this: when ever a girl shows the slightest sign of promiscuity, she is automaticaly labled as a "*****" or a "****", even by her fellow females. But, when a guy does this, he is praised by other males and girls act as though there is nothing wrong with this. Equality? I think not. See, female discrimination presents itself even in the most insignificant ways. Just had to say that

It is PC nonsense .... Are women capable of being equal or not? Why is it women are given the option of when and where they can compete? What the hell is that? ... If women think they can compete with men ... then drop all barriers to male competition... if you can't or won't drop barriers to male competiton ... then just drop the pretense that women and men are equal .... Stop the lies.

I agree with giggelets. That is a good portion of why dressing fem (for a male) is considered demeaning. Bias in many forms still exists. And it is often unspoken (but just as real). Some strides have been made ,but equality is still not prevelant. Although it was many years ago,my step-sister ,although a brilliant chemist could not progress as far a male in her career. Sadly,it drove her to kill herself. Sadly like civil rights,it has gone underground. Still exists ,but not admitted. We have a long way to go to treat others (as sc<x>ripture states) to treating everyone equaly,fairly and without bias or self-interest. But the fight to correct this must go on.

Simple ... women should drop all barriers to male competiton if they think they are equal. Why should women be protected from male competiton? Why do we even have women's tennis ... women's track and field? ... If you think you can run and jump and comptete with men ... then stop this nonsense of protecting yourself from male competition. They won't ... because they can't ... it is all BS ... end of story.

Not meaning to offend, but men and women are different after all. Can you say a woman coal miner? There's just roughly 4.5 percent of women workers in coal mining industry(http://women-minorities-business.findthebest.com/directory/d/Coal-Mining), with most of them probably in office postion or something like that, cause I really doubt a woman would go into a mine herself (If a woman who is a coal miner is reading this, I'm sorry if I offended you, it was just a mere example and I meant no offence). That's a "Man's job" simply because men are more suited to jobs like that. <br />
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Therefore, saying a woman earns only 77 cents per dollar without looking to context might distort the view. I bet that a coal miner, welder, construction worker etc. earns more than a till worker at a shopping center or a receptionist not because one is male and the other is female, but simply because male part of the population tend to do the more dangerous job that are also higher paying. Plus, an equal share of male population might go for "coal miner" and "shopping center" jobs, while women would probably prefer the "shopping center" over "coal miner", thus providing an increased supply of workers in one area, allowing employers to pay less. (No offence meant with the examples, they're just to illustrate my point). Expand the coal miner/till worker example to the economy, where the first represents more physically demanding/more dangerous jobs, while second one shows the rest. WIth a 50/50 share of male workers in both sectors and 5/95 share of female workers, it is rather natural that the second group would probably get lower wages. (Well, that's an oversimplified theory with random numbers off my head)<br />
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Now, I do agree with your point about women in sciences though, this are might need more improvement, but still, women are slowly gaining respect in these areas and it is improving compared to past.<br />
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As for stereotypes, this is a very double edged sword. It's easy for women to shout "Stereotyping!" on all these occasions, but if you are demanding for equality, you should get rid of the stereotypes you have for men. Allow me to give you example:<br />
-Fathers are worse parents than mothers.<br />
-Men always stereotype women and treat them worse.<br />
-Men only want one thing from a woman<br />
-Men are dirty pigs<br />
etc etc etc.<br />
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Well, these are just some of my points. I'm not against women being treated equally, I'm just saying that equal treatment should go both ways.

you keep saying no offence, whis isn't even a word. and the whole time you are offending.
btw it's offense.

Actually, "Offence" IS a word. Which means the same thing as offense, unless you are implying that dictionary is wrong. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/offence

Also, care to elaborate "Whole time you are offending?"
I reread my post again now after some time, and I don't see anything offending, I took a great care not to imply that people following a certain career are worse than anyone else, if anything I overdid the apologies.

Oh, and yeah, and guess what, pay gap? BS. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704415104576250672504707048.html?mod=WSJ_hp_mostpop_read

Equality for women is hundreds of years away. The bias is so deeply ingrained into society that, as you notice, most people (some including women themselves) cannot even see it.

There is no equality between men and women. I lived in a family like this and it hurts alot.

I agree.. Need to see more progress here for Women. I reckon that symbolically Michelle's Obama's raised the consciousness of black women about their potential.

This is a great post, and I totally agree that women should be treated more fairly. However, some of the points you mentioned have the potential to be ba<x>sed on personal decisions rather than discrimination. Women may be underrepresented in certain careers such as CEO's and professors, but that doesn't mean that women CAN'T be CEO's or professors. Maybe they just choose not to be.<br />
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Also, while I question this theory, there was an interesting idea brought up in my social psychology class by my (female) professor about the salary gap between men and women. She said that it's possible that women get paid less than men statistically because women are statistically less likely to ask for a raise or promotion from their boss. I don't know if there's any research supporting that, but it is an interesting theory.

My resource is history good measure.
Can't compare because men don't have babies.

What does having babies have to do with the pay gap?

I don't really have much knowledge on this topic so this is a somewhat limited perspective. I've taken a women's study class in college and learned that as far as descriminition goes it's as follows:<br />
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White Men<br />
White Women<br />
Minority Men<br />
Minority Women<br />
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So it may be innacurate to assume that all women have it worse off than men. As far as women in the workplace, I think that motherhood can skew the statistics. In many cases highly educated/affluent women choose to become stay-at-home moms, take extended period of time off following child birth, or sacrafice career advancement in favor of having more time to spend with children. I'm not saying that this is always true, but I think that this should be considered when looking at the statistics that you posted. And in response to the your initial question, "Are men and women equal", No, I dont think that we've got there yet.

i believe that this is a load of BULLSHIT !<br />
Women are just as good as men but men have a more physical advantage

If women are not still devalued, openly and/or subliminaly, why is it, that there is still a stigma attached to boys who want to be girls, and males who prefer to be expressive as feminine? Think about it !?

'women are still underpaid.' <br />
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my mom charges 75.00 for a full set of fingernails....thats far from underpaid. to me thats a bit ridiculous, but she has a full clientele more than willing to pay for her skill. i would also like to add, most of my moms female clients are high paid lawyers, doctors, realestate agents, financial advisors, etc, etc. <br />
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'women are poorer'<br />
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i dont know all the statistics...but i can say statistics are not always accurate. real people lie, cheat, and steal....those actions affect an annual census. i'm not saying you're wrong though, just sharing my point of view.