Oh God, Marcusgp May Be Right...

Communication has broken down, all we do is fight and don't listen to each other any more. Well, we would try to listen if they didn't deny all truths and make up truths to fit their line.  Recently I pointed out to them that the LEFT are the ones staging violent protests, hurting people and damaging property. My point is devalued because I failed to cite my sources? LOL... Oakland, LA, G20, Code Pink??? Cite sources?

Then you start to think about it. The right(ish) folk of the tea party has staged numerous peaceful demonstrations... what does the news show? A guy angrily yelling at the deaf ears of a black aristocrat and told that he is spitting and hurling racial slurs. (Weeks later some outlets did a bit of digging and found that no witnesses or the law enforcement standing right there heard the racial slurs … but that was quiet news) MSNBC did a hatchet job on a video of an armed African American and said that white supremacists were bringing guns to scare Obama. Nancy Pelosi cries for her beloved country because the people that took off from work to join a tea party rally (no arrests, no violence) reminded her of the hatred and horrible uprisings of the '60s... I'd have enjoyed watching her reaction to the bottle throwing, violence and over 100 arrests last weekend in Arizona.

No, we on the right, are woefully unprepared to do what it takes to save our hostaged nation. The left believe that the ends justify the means, while we on the right believe that negotiation and compromise are the keys to an equitable means. As Marcus tries to point out to me … we are fools and we will lose all of our freedoms and all of our self determination.

The saddest thing is that they believe we have been fooled by corporations and rich people into demanding to hold onto a failed past... yet, they never look at their own insidious underbelly of eugenics, “value to society” subscriptions and ruling class. They let some folks promise them more out of the government than they would have to give and happily call us fools and idiots. I'll take my job from a rich capitalist and accept the negotiated payment because I know one thing will always be true...The rich capitalist will gladly reward me for making him richer while the socialist government will only demand more of me for less return. There will be poor and pathetic people always – socialism doesn't change that – (except, historically through extermination programs)

married2bf married2bf
46-50, M
12 Responses Aug 4, 2010

I would suspect the risks in overhead and employees and such had much to do with it then. When my wife ran her own business, we paid much higher taxes - but she had little risk and investment, it was a service oriented business. Does your employer pay 8% of your taxes over there? Because when you run a business here, you have to pay an extra 8% social security tax that my employer is required to pay for me. <br />
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Still, like you say, paying taxes is a reasonable requirement of government. The graduated tax rate should never be described as <strong>fair</strong>, but as most folks agree, it isn't totally unreasonable and works...30% Fed, 8% SS, 10% state tax on 200000 still leaves a very nice 9 or 10 K per month for a good living. I'm not really arguing that, I'm really just saying that what's going on over here (and I hear it on the TV.. the blogs... and yes in the cafe at work) the 9 of 10 k per month is begrudged by the 3 - 6 k per month crowd.<br />
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Over hear, our society is evolving into a group of people who no longer believe there is value to hard work and determination. They want the government to equalize the income playing field while believing that Mr. 200k isn't a nickel more valuable to productivity than Mr. 60k. As a former employer, you know very well why Mr. 200k is getting 200k instead of 60k. But we don't! And when I try to explain productivity and the effect of turning all our 200k's into 60k's I'm told to hush my foolish mouth.<br />
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When a graduated tax system is graduated, then it is intellectually reasonable. But Stevestr... every time the American president and congress tell this not totally poor man that he will only raise taxes on the rich because they deserve it and benefited most from the Bush Tax Cuts, I hear the lies and misleading that you know are there. I, like you want the "<i>government to account for its spending more openly and I would like the govt. bodies to produce better performance and customer management information</i>" None of this will happen until we are treated like a family and only pure truth is brought forward. When folks are allowed to misrepresent the truth, then society feels justified in shouting down dissention as stupid and <strong>this</strong> shouting down is why the 2 sides can't really talk anymore. <br />
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How many of your friends could stand in this thread and try to present their side as reasonably and intelligently as you? (Almost none) Every time I go into one of your threads and try to chat, I'm told that I'm stupid and don't know anything about economics or history. And those accusations would be remarkable news to the folks around me in the flesh world.

Tax is bloody complex so i hesitate to argue one way or the other. Progressive tax does aim to lessen the burden on the lower paid and there's some merit on that. One can also argue that rich people use less social goods than others, they pay for education and healthcare, for example. But the one thing i 've found is that whenI ran my own business i could pay less tax than when i worked for a firm. I used allowances to claim rebates on equipment and pension payments, i offset interest loan payments and insurance payments and so on. Maybe this reflects the risk taken by the self employed. It has become more and more complicated to do these things and a simplification is long over due. Government spends the tax take and I have no real problem with that. I pay tax but I still have a good standard of living but i would like govt. to account for its spend more openly and i would like the govt. bodies to produce better performance and customer mangement information.

No insult was there. It was a very nice divergence of opinion. You don't hear many people (outside of political blogs) saying they deserve your money and you felt the Bush Tax Cuts were unnecessary at the time and the money should have been used to pay for the wars... you included a non committed agreement that we just sort of shrug at progressive tax brackets. All in all a nice reply – not argumentative, but diverging in POV.<br />
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My comprehension failure was one of the stupidest things I've done in awhile...I'd like to blame it on my daughter stomping up the stairs and waking me from a summer afternoon nap... bleary eyed I went to EP and read the first 5 sentences of your response and apparently omitted a few key words so the whole comment was meaningless drivel and somehow the omitted words had you saying that you hoped not to hear from SF again. (You actually weren't really arguing with her … I suppose reading and comprehending what we read is actually a valuable skill) In a state of bleary eyed, grouchiness, deleted your comment. Reflecting on “Why would outercalm write such foolishness?” I realized that it wasn't the writer that was the fool … got a cup of coffee and woke up enough to feel ashamed of myself. TY for not hating a fool...

Thanks for explaining, I would have wondered what happened to it. I don't recall what I wrote exactly but assure you no insult was intended, sorry if it read that way.

Outercalm - I'm afraid I misread your comment and believed you were insulting one of my guests. I was a bit shocked, but deleted it, then realized your wording was not what I thought it was. I apologize for the inconvenience and my accidental disrespect to you.

i too believe the progressive income tax isn't that unreasonable of an idea. The rich may have more and though they have more at risk, they really can afford to pay higher rates for the benefit of their society. But sometimes the government gets a bit ridiculous and THEN they say the rich aren't paying their fair share. Since we have accepted a progressive tax rate, shouldn't class envy and class abuse be mute? But, what we get are misleading statements that the Bush tax cuts favored the rich (percentage wildly un true) and that the rich aren't doing enough. Millionaire's taxes, Death Tax and by January, double % rates. I simply ask my fellow Americans to recognize that the rich are being milked and stop being so rude to them. BTW ... I am barely above median income in our nation, so I am not a rich guy demanding to be treated equitably - I am a middle class guy who thinks America should stand for equal/fair treatment of all citizens regardless of race, creed or the number of jobs they provide to schmucks like me.

Outercalm do you not realize that because you have more, you owe more to those who have less! You have not learned this yet? Spread the wealth, redistribute, mandatory charity (is that like mandatory volunteerism?)

Not the biggest fan of progressive income taxes myself, in fact in my younger days I would have been arguing in favor of a flat percentage for all or even a fixed amount, no percentage at all. <br />
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Guess I have mellowed some with age though as I am not the strong opponent of our progressive income tax system I once was. <br />
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I have been told I should pay more because I derive more benefit than those who earn less and to some extent that may be true. Is it 35% versus 15% true, I don't know. I do know I have more at risk in terms of investments and career than the guy earning minimum wage who owns nothing and maybe I should be paying more to defend it.

Yes. Did you hear Joy on the view though... "Who's telling your narrative?" Um... Earth to Joy! They think Americans are fools and stupid enough to say it out loud ... Fox News isn't stealing viewership because it steals the narrative and misleads... Fox News is stealing viewership because Americans aren't stupid and it's the only game in town. Do your remember them crying because Air America failed... hmm... Air America failed because it offered stupidity to the masses and the masses who desire stupidity watch much more interesting things like... "I DON'T KNOW ANY OF THE CURRENT TRASH TV SHOWS"

OOPs didn't cite my sources there for Bitlord's lazy brain. Try this Bitlord, Google Barney Frank and the fair housing policies 2006. Read the first 5 responses and decide what is the real truth for yourself. Oh no, I did it for you... you had better read the first 10 because none of the first 5 will be useful for you to cite as proof that I'm ignorant.

Because we have allowed the left to tell us that capitalism has failed. They would have you believe that we are not taking care of the poor and needy and that greedy corporations are robbing us blind. How often has the government’s role in the financial collapse been allowed to be discussed in the media? Do people realize the greedy Wall Street execs were encouraged to make predatory loans by the government? Yes they were greedy bastards... THE (Barney Frank) GOVERNMENT GAURANTEED and paid off in failure SUCCESS. But allowing any discussion regarding the failure of liberal ideology is unacceptable, so we've spent the last 2 years covering it up and hating the rich men who took advantage of the fat idiot(s) who set the whole thing up for them.

Why can people not understand the difference between "fair" and "equal". They are not the same. It is fair and just that someone who is responsible for the business of a large company earns more money. They do not have an equal job as the employee with no responsibility for the business and yet the employee is supposed to be entitled to more money, plus lower taxes, plus free insurance, etc and the person who is not even employed at all by the company, or for that matter any company, should get free health care, free housing, pay no taxes, do no public service, and free food, all of which are paid for by the person responsible for the business in order to make everyone equal.

Let me rephrase a portion. In my life, rich capitalists have rewarded me for making them richer and each time they do, the government (adhering with a bizarre notion of equality) says that I now need to not just pay more money because I got more... but I have earned the right to pay a higher percentage than my brothers. :) Yes - that's equal and fair... you get to pay 35% of your income and you can pay 15% and you... well you can pay -5% because these percentages help to promote our value that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL.