Men's Rights Activists... Why I Don't Feel Sorry For You.

Sure I can acknowledge that men in North America have not always been treated fairly in child custody or divorce settlements. I can even see how many of the male persuasion may feel like "walking wallets" or " success symbols".
I understand and agree that society places at the feet of men a collosial load of expectation. I can even sympathisize to some extent that women can be hard on men. I can appreciate the struggles of individual men and I do support them in their struggle BUT I can not get behind the "Men's Rights Movement" or even begin to see men as a group as being victims and here's why.

Men the world over have always been the favoured sex, in fact in many cultures and in nearly every religion it is the men whom are the "chosen", the "sacred", the "revered". It is men whom are anointed as being made in the image of God, it is men whom are called to be the leaders of their homes and it is men whom are to be 'obeyed'.
In the bible as well as in the koran it is men whom are the important ones, in fact most females in the bible are not even named unless of course they are evil and wretched. We all know the story of Adam and Eve and how it was Eve who caused us all of our troubles in the first place.
It is women who need to keep silent, not allowed to teach men, must be covered from head to toe in some cultures ect...
it is girls, not boys who are denied schooling in many nations the world over. It is women not men whom are the victims of "honour killings" and it is women, not men whom are tortured and killed because of an insufficient dowry. Furthermore, in many nations it is the female whom is denied life and aborted or shockingly murdered shortly after birth because she was born a girl.

In light of all of this injustice, I just can not get behind this notion of men as victims. I may feel sorry and sympathize to an extent but I do not see you as victims and i believe that what many in the MRM movement feel is not the loss of rights but the loss of privilege. Loss of male privilege in North American culture. It will take some time to accept that what you have internalized since birth ( that maleness is superior to femaleness) is no longer supported by our culture.
gumshoejane2 gumshoejane2
36-40, F
24 Responses Dec 9, 2012

The problem with MRM is the same problem with feminism. They both seek to assert that problems which are imherint in life are number one: largely specfic and more pronounced against their own group amd number two, somehow in violation of some sort of universal right.

I can honestly respect a Christian feminist (though i still see you as misguided) more than an atheistic one because at least you have the excuse of god.

All in all both feminists amd mrms suffer from an excess of ego and lack of perspective

Mine is a walking wallet. His choice

Right on! MRM is just plain silly!

Really? So injustice over there means that we should counter balance here instead of seeking justice?

Earlier you identified as a Christian and like me seem to have a personal relationship with Christ. He looked into the heart of each, not as a group, not as a male or female, beyond labels and in my opinion so should we

Some of what you say is true but I think these groups are more about child custody than true universal rights. Sadly, the court system does not look as closely at childrens rights and security as much as they could or should. Fathers have little say in what happens to their children and I believe this is where an injustice occurs, not so much to the father as to the child.

Yes men should know their place, they should admit the fact that female is superior

every body conceptuclarity is going around rating feminist comments down

:D There\'s a dislike button?? How long has that been there? Finally an EP change I can get behind...

yea i told cc to stop stalking me stop rating my comments down and of course he wrote me back a nasty reply lol

---------------------------------------------------------Dislike button ^^^^^

Yea, so very unlike a Christian man! that\'s why they practice church every Sunday.

have to purge their evil sins (guilt) they do during the week.

Its just a control freak thing we see all the time. Writing comments about how people should do this or that, and EP should change this or that. Some people always have to feel like they know what is best and try to take charge of anything they can.

He takes EP very seriously. Leave him alone, gypsy. LOL.


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I think there is a legitimate need for men's rights activism -- I just don't think, as most of the representatives I've seen on this site seem to, that it's somehow incompatible with feminism. It's a matter of scope. People who fundraise for lung cancer charities don't go around saying that colon cancer charities want people with lung cancer to die. Feminists can campaign for, say, equal pay, and MRAs can campaign for, say, equality in family courts, and the two need never be in the same room.

Anti-feminism is an entirely different issue, and a complicated one in itself.

Incidentally, what the **** is with the name of this group?

I must ask how you feel about the MRAs/MHRM specifically branching off of the larger men\'s liberation movement so as to be a \"backlash\" against feminism from it\'s inception.

I refer to Michael Messner\'s Politics of Masculinities specifically 41 42 43 44 45

Do you believe this stance is a overall hindrance to achieving any real \"rights\" for men?

Damsel you misandrist liar. The group name is about the acknowledgments of The Prisonarcy and how the natural state of men is \"felon\" and therefore a man\'s natural place is prison. Because of God and Evolution.

@damsel I hoped it was something like that :P

@ambitieux I\'m not sure rights are something you \"achieve\" so much as constantly give and take, but yes, I think childish polarised debate makes everyone involved look bad, and makes even their sensible arguments look bad by association.

@ Winston \"I\'m not sure rights are something you \"achieve\" so much as constantly give and take\"

In your opinion, are rights social constructs or birthrights (for lack of a better term)?

They\'re social constructs. Anything to do with how the world \"should\" be is a social construct. Even if you recognise a difference between fundamental human rights and negotiable social rights, they\'re both capable of changing over time as the way we look at the world changes.

I agree that they are social constructs, that is why I used the word achieved. Achievement having to do acquiring social position.

I think I was reading it as \"achieving rights\" being \"one day: no rights, next day: rights\", but it occurs to me that you could have meant gradually achieving specific rights one at a time, which does make sense. But anyway, its kind of a pointless semantic quibble. Main thing is that the answer to your original question is yes, I do think they hamper their own (stated) objective by making enemies of feminists. For the record I also think there are a lot of feminists who hamper their cause by alienating men, whether deliberately or not.

There is always enough guilt to go around....

DO you feel it is ever possible for the oppressed talk about their oppression, speak out against their oppressors without worry of alienting those that oppress them?

Ahahaha yeah ... Men don\'t oppress women as individuals only as a class and I actually think that men generally are the allies of women and feminism, I was just trying get get Winston to empathize with the minority group when that was women.

I find it interesting that in general people seem overly concerned with the oppressed alienating their oppressors based on where their individual sympathies lie, which is so entirely subjective it often doesn\'t seem a fair objection, as it puts the onus of civility on those who are actively disenfranchised and marginalized.

And more so it\'s a tone argument, which besides being a logical fallacy (red herring) it\'s also a tool used to silence and shame minority voices ...

I also don't think that most of the people who call themselves MRAs actually engage in any activities to help "men's rights". All most of them do is spend their time on the internet whining and complaining about feminism and women, and accusing feminists of things that are not true.

What men's rights issues are there?

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There is more to what I feel about this story. But it will extend from your answer to the following question. :)

Do you blame the women of the past for allowing the men in their lives control?

Hi sonnet,
That is an interesting question. Just off the top of my head I don\'t think anyone is to blame. Cultural norms, traditional values, religious influence as well as an economy and culture which supported a distinct division of labour all contributed to the economic dependence of wives on husbands.
If one is being supported financially and protected by a caring, hard working husband then his \" control\" is a rather small price to pay .

Hello Jane :)

If you\'ll allow it I will request that the answer to the next part of my question be a simple yes or no::

Would you have given me the same reply if I had asked if you blamed the men of the past for allowing each other that control?

Sonnets love the question because it gives me a chance to say... Men did not control women, women did not allow themselves to be controlled. Please forgive my uncouth comparison but, it is the one most will best understand, Germans did not control the Jewish, The Jewish did not allow themselves to be controlled... A few devious Nazis through luck, fear and strategy convinced a whole country that there was no other choice, that is what that patriarchy is and does in terms of gender.

Women have always been amazing, gaining freedoms from patriarchal oppression in a haphazard non linear way. Men have always been helping them to the best of their ability. Patriarchal oppressors and their parrots have always been trying to convince everyone that this is not so.

P.s when I say women have always been amazing it should be a given that this goes for men as well.

I\'m not sure i understand the 2nd part of your question.
I will say \" yes\" and reiterate that I feel cultural influence is at the heart of it.

I want you to understand though, Jane. I want us to be sure where we are going forward. :)

If I had asked you the following question:: Do you blame the men of the past for allowing each other societal control? Would you have given me the answer above that included reasons cultural norms, traditional values, religious influence & economic dependence?

ambitieuxetvicieux, bear with a little please honey. :)

Correxion:: most REPORTED rape victims are women...

*waits patiently for Jane* :)

Yes I would answer the same and I would throw in the element of human nature to the mix.

Go find me one & I will!

*comedy drum sounds, & the like*

Jane - Okay, so assuming I have understood you correctly I now ask that you please explain why you believe that men are more prone to the characteristics of human nature than women? :)

I don\'t believe men to be more prone to human characteristics than women!
I simply believe that the men being in \"control\" in the past was a place of privilege and that they being human would want to embrace and support that privilege . Women would do the same given the same circumstance and privilege.

Okay. Thank you. :)

So providing that we are on the same page here, & that you are of the opinion that your original answer (cut & paste below simply for convenience) applies to all human beings whether male or female...

\"...Just off the top of my head I don\'t think anyone is to blame. Cultural norms, traditional values, religious influence as well as an economy and culture which supported a distinct division of labour all contributed to the economic dependence of wives on husbands.
If one is being supported financially and protected by a caring, hard working husband then his \" control\" is a rather small price to pay.\"

...Do you think it could be possible that the above story entitled \"Men\'s rights activists... Why I don\'t feel sorry for you.\" may actually be contrary to your above thoughts? Because if it is in fact true that no one is to blame, to now apportion said blame would perhaps be seen as (simply put), unfair?

I do believe that there are legitimate issues specific to men that MRAs should focus on.
Consa rightly points out the incredibly high suicide rates and depression amongst men. Society still places a colossal load of expectations on their shoulders. There are issues surrounding fathers rights ect.
These are the issues MRAs should be focused on.

I'd really like to know what areas specific to men (but not women) require fixing. What do MRAs actually want?

@Vonel and Sonnets you liars !!!! Women are never raped every one knows that all rape allegations are completely false. Women are so powerful they just use false rape accusations as a way to have men arrested after they have ***** jacked them, best part is the men go to jail and actually get prison raped ...

Damn ambitieuxetvicieux.... now you ruined it for everyone! The cat is out of the bag! ;=P

In case it isn\'t obvious to everyone, a man\'s place, naturally is in prison, that\'s why there are so many of them there, and it\'s why when we let them out so many of them return.

Also for the record it\'s called prisonarchy and it exists because that is human nature and evolution and stuff. Men just naturally prefer prison. It\'s natural that men are felons and it\'s natural that felons aren\'t allowed to vote or have freedom. People who believe otherwise are destroying our families and society and going against God and human nature and are Nazis and liberal fascist that kill babies.

The only rights MRAs should be fighting for is their right to be in prison !!!

Wanna stop the high male suicide rate ? Simple put the men in prison (their natural habitat) and put them on suicide watch. End of problem.

Men have to much pressure to support families? Not in prison they don\'t.

The only point a MRA has ever made is from a toothbrush they\'ve turned into a shiv that they made while they were in prison.

I was being facetious and sardonic.

As for genetic selection and \"wiring\" ...

You should check out Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine

And check out HannibalTheVictors Series on Evolutionary Psychology

It\'s a lot of information to cover just in hopes of witty conversations via the comment section of Experience Project, however for those truly interested in gender roles and evolution totally worth the investment.

If you check it out I would love to hear your opinions about them.

\" Many men feel thoroughly insulted by the feminist quote \"all men are potential rapists.\"  <~~~~ is that a feminist quote ?

I think your thinking of the MRA misqoute where they attack Marilyn French of saying \"all men are rapists\" because she was a feminist who wrote The Women\'s Room, A novel with a fictional character who said the line \"Whatever they may be in public life, whatever their relationships with men, in their relationships with women, all men are rapists, and that\'s all they are. They rape us with their eyes, their laws, and their codes.\" 

I think we should be wary of suggesting men can\'t be raped by women, as it discourages men who are victims from reporting it and from seeking help.

It is also important to remember that not all (in fact not most) rape involves excessive physical force. And that the level of physical resistance or more accurately lack thereof does not mean that a rape didn\'t or couldn\'t have occurred.

*ignore all the silliness*

Jane - I want to make it plain that my intensions here are genuine. I actually want to know how you feel, not Consa!

Do you think it possible that the comment (copied again below) could fly in the face of the story above?
& if not, perhaps you could help me understand how these two viewpoints marry? Please. :)

\"...Just off the top of my head I don\'t think anyone is to blame. Cultural norms, traditional values, religious influence as well as an economy and culture which supported a distinct division of labour all contributed to the economic dependence of wives on husbands.
If one is being supported financially and protected by a caring, hard working husband then his \" control\" is a rather small price to pay.\"

I don\'t know nearly enough about Radfem to be able to comment there, Damsel. But otherwise what you written does read as yet very fair.

You take your time Jane. ;)

The weakness 'given' them? Compensation? Jeez, you really do despise women don't you?

Well I think you've definitely made your preference clear!

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Absolutely spot on!

I've strewn the last of my pearls on a few twits on this inane topic! TaTa..

toodle loo enemigo

This issue/movement took root in the early 70's and is only kept alive by the Femi-Nazi's that are looking for a cause to support. Frankly, this thread has had it's run and is or has become redundant. Boring in other words.

And yet here you are bemoaning about it not giving your penis enough feels.

Have the two of ya on here yet to figure out I\'ve been toying with a few twits?...LOL... I hope

Awh willie if you have to announce you were trolling then you failed at trolling ...rule 1

I didn\'t like how he called his balls \"twits\" and then bragged about playing with himself while typing on this thread. I mean it just makes the repetitive use of ... Seem as if he needs help climaxing, and I for one am not getting him any viagra.

I don\'t want him toying with his twits on EP ...there are children here! Isn\'t it against the TOS no tossing or toying of twits whilst typing ?!?

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Gum shoe.. have you ever witnessed a woman accusing a man of inappropriate behavior in the workplace. Seen his marriage crash because of it.. .seen the man lose his job.. his wife ... his kids... Only to find out that she'd done it 3 times before in different companies? Some females use their gender for self promotion, not knowing that they're only doing a MAJOR disservice to the rest of their gender. As the owner of a small software company, with less than a dozen employee's, my highest paid employee was a hard working female from Sri Lanka.. I'm not biased but for damn well sure, I am cautious about gender hire's knowing there is a LARGE swath of folks out there looking for a free ride versus working for a living. Everything ain't black and white.. Walk a mile in a person's moccosins before ya judge.

Have you also seen men fraudulently claiming they were injured on the job and latching onto workers compensation/disability benefits while they don't go to work and instead go out and play golf, do gardening, go to the gym, etc.? I have. PEOPLE, and not just women, make false claims and engage in fraudulent behavior that ends up doing damage to others, and it usually has nothing to do with gender.

LB.. workplace fraud is NOT gender specific. Sexual harassment generally is!... My point that there should be NO GENDER specific causes as that just creates division between the genders!

A fraudulent sexual harassment claim IS gender specific. I know what sexual harassment is. My husband is an attorney and has represented both women and men who were sexually harassed at their jobs. Yes, more often it is women, and the majority of the the time the complaints are completely valid and not false which should tell you something about how some men behave on the job. Unfortunately at times the claims are false, but it is rare, and my husband has never encountered a false claim, or heard of a woman or man making three sexual harassment claims and causing someone to lose their job and family, while she is promoted. He has heard of beautiful women being harassed more than once at a job, but if the claim is legitimate and a man has actually done it in severe and extreme ways (which is what will usually only result in a claim being pursued since the law only considers extreme, and continuing sexual harassment to be grounds for a claim) that person deserves to lose their job, and perhaps their family as well. They ****** up and will suffer the consequences.
In addition, the company is usually sued as well because they have blown it by failing to comply with the laws by doing things like failing to provide proper sexual harassment training to ensure that employees will know what it is and know they shouldn't do it or they will get in trouble, and to let employees know how to make a claim if it does happen; failing to accurately handle claims made by people who claim they have been harassed by failing to properly investigate the claim and if it is legitimate disciplining the harassing employee (which doesn't involve telling his or her family) to try to ensure that it stops and won't occur again; or the company has ignored an upper level management employees harassing behavior and instead finds a convoluted way to fire the victim; or the owner of the company is the one who engages in the harassment. As a result the company tries to fight the lawsuit and often accuse the complainant of lying so they can try to get out of looking bad and having to pay any damages as a result of their blowing it. The harassers family rarely ever leaves the harasser even if the complaints are true and valid, and often the company will settle the case with the victim of the harassment by paying them damages, but only if their leaving the company is part of the agreement. They rarely ever allow them to stay, and they certainly don't promote them. Lets face it, what company would want an employee who sued them to continue working there? I agree that there should be no gender specific causes, but as long as employees continue to engage in gender specific misconduct there will be. It is not the fault of the victims. It is the fault of the perpetrators and their supporters.

Although I agree with your response, I don't believe she was judging. It was more of an opinion based on her observations.

Lady blue.. having spent 40 years in business, 30 in management I can flat out state your observations are 90% off base. I have served, in those 40 years, on 5 different peer/employee review panels involving harassment allegations. On three of the cases, I voted for severe actions against the male harasser. Two of which resulted in termination of the employee. (Try keep that fact from your wife/family if you've been falsely accused, no need for the company to contact the family as you state in your counter argument).
In my real life experience, companies would rather take the easy way out, justified or not, and side with the accuser, shell out a bit of cash and make the problem go away. In cases, where there is a false victim, they are generally of a mindset that they will push the issue until the company succumbs.
I find it interesting that your husband, the attorney, hasn't defended the accused according to your statement. A bit of bias perhaps? Does your husband receive a bit of the settlement?
What the hell does false workman's comp cases has to do with this discussion, I've not a clue.
Finally, in closing, while sitting on a management review board, with irrecountable proof that the accuser was lying, and in fact was engaged in her 3rd harassment claim with 3 different companies, I lectured her and the rest of the panel. "A woman that falsely claims harassment does a major disservice to her gender. You've put a ceiling above them that they didn't deserve and cannot break through. Every hiring decision is based upon finding a staff addition with concerns about how that individual will fit in with the rest of the staff. Your actions have added yet another factor to weigh when considering candidates".
I'll share some actual facts/data (but not actual names) of two false claims if ya want.. One of which was 100% fraudulently false yet resulted in the termination of the accused, And this was a fortune 100 company~!

I am always amazed when employees who serve on peer/employee review panels believe they know more about sexual harassment laws and how SH lawsuits take place and end up concluding than the lawyers who actually practice sexual harassment law, take on the cases, file the lawsuits, do all the litigation, and often end up taking the offenders to trial and winning the lawsuit. My husband often wins cases that the peer/employee review panels thought they handled correctly and in compliance with the applicable laws, when in reality they didn't and in fact had thoroughly screwed up.

LB, I\'m shocked that you think lawyers sole goal are to reveal truth rather than a settlement that favors their client! Peer review boards don\'t receive compensation for a settlement, does your husband forgo his \"take\"?

Typical response from a brain dead individual... no facts.. just suppositions!

wcd wrote: \"Peer review boards don\'t receive compensation for a settlement\"

Really? You don\'t get paid for the time you spend on the peer review board trying to negotiate a settlement? Your peer review board does all that work for free?

\"does your husband forgo his \"take\"?\"

Sometimes he does pro bono (free) work depending on the circumstances, but most people (lawyers and peer review board members) don\'t work for free. If the settlement offered is fair and his client likes it, he will agree to it. But often the amount offered by the company that has screwed up and has allowed sexual harassment to occur is miniscule and they refuse to accept responsibility for the mess they have created until they are sued and the judge advises them at a mediation session that it is likely that the jury is going to take them to the cleaners. Often then, and only then, will they offer a fair and appropriate settlement that my husband feels is reasonable and that his client agrees to accept.

Yes.. every peer review board I served on did their efforts off hours. (get some experience in business and you\'d know that)...
2. When the complainant makes an outrageous demand for settlement, it lines the pocket of the attorney as well as the \"victim\".. and the amount at times has NOTHING to do with damages...just an estimate at what the \"market\" will bear. 3. Yet another erroneous statement: \"amount offered by the company that has screwed up\"... I\'d call that a presumption of guilt before any facts/data are in wouldn\'t you? Oh.. I forgot, your husband is one of the parasites that makes a living off filing suits....rather than producing something of value to others.

Plow.. your comment reminds me of an old joke: \"what do you get when you cross a lawyer with a snake?......Nothing, even a snake has standards\"......

Sure, lawyers are prostitutes just like everyone else who actually gets paid for the work they do (eyeroll).

\"Yes.. every peer review board I served on did their efforts off hours. (get some experience in business and you\'d know that)...\"

The fact that they do it off their normal work schedule does not mean that they do not get paid. So I will ask you again . . . You don\'t get paid for the time you spend on the peer review board trying to negotiate a settlement? Your peer review board does all that work for free?
If so you are getting ripped off by the company you work for because I have quite a bit of experience in business and I do know that if you truly are indicating that your peer review board does not get paid for the work it does you obviously don\'t have very good business awareness and experience.

\"2. When the complainant makes an outrageous demand for settlement, it lines the pocket of the attorney as well as the \"victim\".. and the amount at times has NOTHING to do with damages...just an estimate at what the \"market\" will bear.\"

This comment shows how biased you are and if your company knew that this is the way you view things they would likely remove you from the peer review board (unless they are also biased, subjective and not objective, thinkers. If the complainant makes an outrageous, and unjustified, demand for settlement it will not be accepted and agreed to by the company, so neither the attorney, or the victim, are going to get their \"pockets lined\" unless the case goes to trial and the jury finds that the amount the victim is seeking actually is justified and reasonable and awards them the amount they are seeking or more. This is how it works. The amount my husband seeks on behalf of his clients has EVERYTHING to do with the damages his clients have incurred for suffering emotional distress from being harassed and having to obtain psychological counseling (which costs money) as a result. And if the employer has done nothing to prevent the harassment from continuing (which is usually the case with my husband\'s clients) they have also usually had to resign (constructive wrongful termination) so they will no longer be sexually harassed and their lost wages are the additional damages they have incurred until they are able to get another job which hopefully pays the same amount or more. So their damages (yes, actual damages and you would know this if you truly do the peer review work you claim you do) are for the counseling costs they have incurred, the wages they have lost, the emotional distress they have experienced, and the attorney\'s fees they have incurred for having to sue their screwed up employer who did nothing to prevent, and stop, them from being sexually harassed.

\"3. Yet another erroneous statement: \"amount offered by the company that has screwed up\"... I\'d call that a presumption of guilt before any facts/data are in wouldn\'t you? Oh.. I forgot, your husband is one of the parasites that makes a living off filing suits....rather than producing something of value to others.\"

Wrong again, and very rude. As I have indicated before, my husband only accepts cases where the factual evidence clearly indicates that the harasser and employer have actually screwed up and have violated the sexual harassment laws and will therefore be found guilty. He does not take on cases where this is not apparent. Someone who considers an attorney who helps people who truly have been victims of sexual harassment, and who have incurred damages as a result which is of value to others, a parasite, is an unfair, rude, and seriously biased individual who does not know the difference between right and wrong.

Lady.. you are so clueless... One of the last companies I served on as a peer reviewer?.. I ended up owning that company.. .sold it 10 years later and haven\'t had to work since. So open up your eyes and don\'t proscribe your experiences towards everyone else...ya twit!

Lawyers.... so easy to insult until you need their help and go begging and crying for the best that money can buy...

\"Lady.. you are so clueless... One of the last companies I served on as a peer reviewer?.. I ended up owning that company.. .sold it 10 years later and haven\'t had to work since. So open up your eyes and don\'t proscribe your experiences towards everyone else...ya twit!\"

No you are obviously clueless, and once again, VERY rude. Rational, logical, intelligent people don\'t feel the need to drop down to the level of constantly calling people names who have provided evidence that they are wrong and don\'t know what they are talking about which is exactly what you are doing.

The fact that you were on the peer review board of a company that you ended up owning and selling 10 years later does not in any way demonstrate that you know more about sexual harassment cases than my lawyer husband and I do.

And you still have not answered my question asking if the members of the peer review board that you were on actually did all of the peer review board work for free simply because they did the work after their work schedule had ended. Your failure to answer this question suggest that they actually did get paid for their work on the peer review board, in addition to being paid their salary, which is usually the case. I have owned and sold three companies, and as I have indicated previously, my husband works for a prestigious law firm that\'s primary practice is corporate law. He represents men and women who are treated unfairly, sexually harassed, and discriminated against on the side of the corporate work he usually does because he is a kind, fair minded person who likes to help people. This is also which is why he does some of this work for free (pro bono) which is hardly comparable to prostitutes (another rude and obnoxious comment).

The fact that you \"haven\'t had to work since\" you sold your company suggest that you didn\'t enjoy working and are probably no longer in touch with what goes on in relation to sexual harassment and other employment discrimination cases.

\"So open up your eyes and don\'t proscribe your experiences towards everyone else...ya twit!\"

All I can say here is that you should do the same. Stop thinking you know more about laws and how they work than lawyers. And stop thinking that you know more about all companies and how they work simply because you worked for some and owned and sold one, than other people who have done the same, and are still doing it. Thinking and acting like that is egotistical and arrogant and does not make you look very good and truly knowledgeable.

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Well actually in the Bible Satan was the one that initially caused all of our problems.He gets that credit.I have never heard of Mens Rights Movements so not sure about that.
Many dads have pushed agendas for their daughters to get many things like sports programs in high schools.
In college the football programs earn all the money so that females can have athletic programs.
In China it is the mothers that abort their daughters according to studies on the subject.They want sons to look after them when they are old.
I as a man have not felt any loss of anything so I'm not sure where or which men feel they have lost anything and I have seen many gains for women which is good I think.
Thanks for sharing.

Yes Chinese women because China has a 1 child rule and families know that if they have a daughter she will marry one day and become part of another family but having a son means the parents will be taken care of in old age.I don\'t think a man can force a woman to have an abortion.

I lived in China for 16 months. And this 1 child policy made things a mess. You are right ..... but it\'s not just abortion, many of the Chinese can\'t afford abortions or don\'t even know the sex of the child until they are born. But there is a l lot of infanticide! At the moment there are so few women in comparison to men that poor guys have little chance of actually meeting and marrying a girl. There just aren\'t enough to go around.

Exactly thank you

Everything so true, Jane. Well done.

Thank you Ruby! :)

Most welcome!

I think the Banner should be "Equal Rights" Not rights for Women or for men.

They really should stop calling themselves "Men's Rights Activists" and instead call themselves "Men's Rights Whiners" or better yet "Anti-women's Rights Activists" because that is obviously what many of them are.


here is some food for thought ...

Why do some men play the victim card to prove that they are the superior gender?

Kind of contradicts itself, don't you think? Like, if men have it worse (which I don't believe anyway), how does that make them the better gender?

Alternatively, why can't they just overcome their unfair disparities with their superior logic/strength? If they are so smart, how did they let women get ahead?

Can't have it both ways, boys.

good point.... like lots!

thanks katrina

I couldn't agree more gypsy, and have pointed this out to them. Their response . . . I am just a *****.

Im so sorry for how they treat you ladyblue.

I need to get a hold of my southern voodoo, crawdad catching, side of family to cast a few spells... lol

Oh believe me, I have already put curses on them and poked the voodoo dolls I created to resemble them with very sharp needles in very sensitive places. ;-)

high five ! ladyblue

Personally do not think either Gender should have it all their own way. Just fairness. Having lost both my children to my Wife (almost automatic in British Law) and my property despite having bought it all many years before we met and having to provide for children I am never allowed to see. Fairness in Law and the workplace should not be an unreasonable target. Neither Sex is the "Superior" one we have different strengths that's all.

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Great story!!!!! ignore those whining male chauvinists stupid remarks, I'd comment on how ridiculous they are, but I can't cuz I blocked the jerks! LOL

Direlight is to overly emotional... to see that most of those things he claims men are victims of apply to women as well and some of them are just a crock.

I agree so much. I am getting so sick and tired of the hateful anti-feminists constantly writing stories that bash women and claiming many of us do things for deceptive and exploitative reasons. Then when you point out factually that they may be wrong, and why, they often get all pissed off and block you or threaten to delete your comments if you call them out on their bullshit anymore and make them look like the sad, biased, negative, pessimistic people they obviously are.

I would never claim that I know exactly why many men do some things. I sometimes speculate, but I would never claim that I know that what I believe is absolutely true (unless I know for sure that it is) and claim that there are unproven statistics to try to prove it.

I am starting to think that we women should start writing lots of stories about the mean, nasty, hurtful, dishonest, deceptive, disrespectful, exploitative things that we know for a fact that many men do to women to give those ******** a taste of their own medicine so they might STFU.

To prove what we are saying all we would have to do is provide links to all of the stories and comments here on EP that some men have written that prove without a doubt that what we are claiming is true. And there are PLENTY.

Why guys would want to play the role of the victim is beyond me. It's so unempowering! And it just makes them look weak which doesn't exactly help their cause.

what lagatta is saying ..and lagatta please correct me if you find me wrong- many men go on to use the pity card over and over again.
poor poor them.. pity me please, card....

if you have been victimized learn from it and go on. dont sit there year after year looking for pity.. playing the victim.

there are many men who are a part of this
social site who play the victim and then take it out on the females members on e/p, when in reality, they should be in therapy!

in my dating days, if i ran across a man who played yhe victim card to wheel me into their pity party, i walked away.

playing the victim is just kinda creepy and sad at the same time.

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plow i too have been jerked around by both men and women.. difference with me, i don blame "feminisn" its just people in general being jerks.

SO from then on you decided to blame Feminest for anything gone wrong in ur life if a women did you wrong? (by the way thier are men who claim to be femm )

that would be like me saying.... all black people are bad because i had one do me wrong...

plow have you ever been wrong by a women who isnt a femm?

Plowjocky - I'm sorry for your bad experiences. But you cannot generalize women because of your bad experience. There are good and bad women just as there are good and bad men. Personally, I've almost been raped (someone fortunately walked in and stopped it), been fired from a job after rejecting my boss's sexual advances, lived through a 4-yr. abusive relationship (and yes, he was my first boyfriend and I was naive) and was raised with double standards where men dominated and got to have fun while women served them. Did this make me a victim? Maybe but I refuse to buy into victim mode. I am determined to have a good life and live from a position of strength. I focus on positive experiences and relationships. I'm sorry you have been accused of something that you did not do. From my personal experience, I have found that if one lives with integrity and kindness the truth usually reveals itself and lies are eventually exposed.

And yes Gypsy, it's true! I don't respect people that play the pity card. After all, aren't we all victims of something?

lagatta omg i could give you a list of of who did me wrong, since the day i was born...its amazing that im even still alive.

but iv gained strength from it.

The women iv worked with who did me wrong, never claimed to be a feminest, and i never blamed any grp that i perceived them to be a member of.

plow if you dont mind, what does a feminest represent to you?

I agree with much of what legatta writes.

"I figure if a woman has a really bad attitude,she "Probably" claims to be a FEMINEST and blames all of lifes lil woes on men."

Unless a woman actually claims to be a feminist, you should not assume that she is simply because she has a really bad attitude. I have a good attitude and I am a feminist and I know many feminist who are the same way. We were treated wrong, deceived, disregarded, and hurt by men, but we do not label them as anything in particular other than hurtful, deceptive, disrespectful men, and we do not lump all men like that into a particular category. We see them as the individual ******** that they are. And like gypsyblu said we do not cling to the victim persona. We learn from what occurred and then move on. We don't blame a particular group of people, or particular types of people, or genders for what happened. We just blame it on the person who did it to us, and have our guard up if that kind of person appears in our life again. Because teenage boys are more aggressive and have very high libidos, and teenage girls are often more reserved and worried about their reputation being damaged, girls tend to get their hearts broken long before boys do, and more often than boys do. If we allowed that to affect us for the rest of our lives we would probably all end up hating men, mistrusting them, and being lesbians. We don't. We learn, get over it, and move on. I think men who cling to the victim persona because they have been treated wrongly by women at some point in their life should try to do the same.

Also, because I believe in, and promote equality (meaning equal rights where applicable) that does not mean I think that men and women are identical as many people seem to think that that is what equality means. I know that men and women are very different. This is why I also believe that far more men are meant to be soldiers, construction workers, police, firefighters, and thinks of that nature, and women are far more meant to be housekeepers, child care workers, hairdressers, fashion designers, seamstresses and things of that nature. Some things seem to suit one gender better than another because of the mental and physical differences genders have. That does not mean things should only be available to one gender over another. I just think it means that it should be accepted that it is more likely that one gender will want to do it more than another because most of us want to do what we like and feel we will do well.

Things should still be available to both genders, but whoever does it best should get the job.

I believe respect by both genders is always required.

bravo ladyblue

equality (meaning equal rights where applicable) that does not mean I think that men and women are identical as many people seem to think that is what equality means.

gypsyblu.....ladyblue if people could just take the time to learn, understand, what "equality" of the genders really means, instead of putting thier own spin onto it, May open up a new civilization,new way of thinking.

I agree. We are different but equality important. Yin and yang! Both genders deserving of respect and given equal opportunities.

yes and i like how ladyblue said "equal rights where applicable" "where" being the key word

I agree gypsy. We constantly see these men playing the pity card and whining and complaining about having to deal with unfair and unjust treatment that women have been dealing with for years, and which brought about feminism. Welcome to equality fellas. I isn't always a wonderful thing. Sometimes you will experience the equally bad treatment that women do.

As for the military, the large amount of military rape of women that has occurred is finally being acknowledged and dealt with.

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' i believe that what many in the MRM movement feel is not the loss of rights but the loss of privilege'

This! So much this!

What a great story. Its amazing how so many anti-feminist MRAs will blame women and feminism for so many things that go wrong in the world when feminism is in no way related.

They will often blame feminism if a woman who is not a feminist does something wrong, and they will also often blame feminism if a man does something wrong. A perfect example is the fact that DiaperDan is now trying to argue that feminism is to blame for the Sandy Hook masacre that recently occurred. They also constantly claim that women who have done things wrong are feminists when there is absolutely nothing to suggest, much less prove that they are.

It is also ironic that they constantly ridicule and condemn women for doing things that they applaud men for doing like being dominating, and having a group like this one.

Their outrageous hypocrisy and false accusations is getting so out of hand. If they only knew how ridiculous they are making themselves look when they do that kind of thing and when they constantly whine about what victims they are, and blame everything they don't like on feminism.

Yes!!!!, like Mr Boo hoo IvanKarama....LOL

True. And he wonders why he loses girlfriends and has no friends. He thinks liberals are like minded and judgmental, and right wingers aren't? What a joke. I think it is so unbelievable when young, anti-social men think they are such know-it-alls. Hopefully someday he will wake up and realize how wrong his thinking is, and that he doesn't know so much more than other people do, and how practically everything works, and then his life will probably get much better.

AMEN! You got that one right!

I wish more men would see this story too!!!!!!

You don't have to feel sorry for not feeling sorry for the MRAs!

Although it is sad that many men are made to feel like money machines, there are many more men ready to re-enforce that stereotype, as I have noted in my story 'Men Who Actively Seek Gold-Diggers'. (Of course, there are also many more men that do not do so)

Also, it is a fallout of patriarchy that men and women tend to get pigeonholed into narrow, unfulfilling social roles - and patriarchy is something that feminism is actively fighting.


I agree. Its amazing how some men will seek "gold diggers" which they often refer to as "trophy wives", but then will whine and complain and blame feminism when their "trophy wife" ends up having an affair and falling in love with a man who loves her for who she is, and not just what she looks like, and then divorces her husband and takes him to the cleaners. But if a woman falls for a man who ends up being cruel and abusive its all her fault and no one elses.