....

arabs werent forced out of israel they left by their own choice

LaTristesse,

Thanks for the invitation, but like Rob I don't really have enough time in my day to bother responding to people like that.

While I accept you have good motives for putting up what he says, I would prefer not to have it up on this experience site either, but hey, that's just my opinion.

Can you not block his messages? Life's too short!

:o)

GA.

You mean take this gibberish apart in detail?

Childs play,but what's the point when somebody clearly doesn't want facts to spoil a good rant?

once more, levinkitty, if you have something to say, share it with the group.





or do you not want to be seen making stupid comments to someone half your age who could clearly kick your arse in a debate, if you knew how to argue with any coherence?







"You never did answer my question as to what the policy is of Hamas towards the Israelis. I think you whould study a little bit more and think about the situation before you put your foot in your mouth again. I know that in your young life you have had no one try to kill you or your family (as Hamas does to Isreails every day) Yes, there are many civilians who die in wars. I suppose you have the answer to stop all wars as so many of my politically correct friends have. Tell me HOW you are going to stop war. You can make us both very very very rich. If Isreal melted all their weapons down tomorrow, the day after tomorrow Hamas and their hordes would decapitate every Israeli man woman and child they could find. Talk to someone from Al Fatah, the other Palestinian party. Ask them what they think of Hamas. Oh I forgot - your mind is already made up. Here's a suggestion - go to Gaza, tell them you support Hamas - see how long you last before they cut your head off."









it doesnt even justify a response, but i thought i would put it up incase anyone else wanted to argue it out with him.

LaTristesse, you don't have to put up with that bullshit. Can't you just block that person or report them? Of course its insulting being called a wannabe terrorist. And stupid. Not someone worthy of debating with no matter what the forum. Focus your energy! :o)

levin0kitty or whatever, please have it out with me here and stop sending me emails calling me a 'moslom' wannabe terrorist.









its really rather insulting when you're a peace activist.

wishing and praying doesnt achieve anything.







talking about politics can resolve issues. it creates debate, forces thinking, creates an environment for questions to be raised and answers found.





If I hadnt spent so long thinking and talking about politics, I would never have reached the conclusion that we would be better off without it, and thus become an anarchist.

hear hear.

First of all ,Israeli's didn't win peice by peice by the pure awesomeness of themselves.



Anyone know Ghandi? I love Ghandi! That du's a slicka'!



“Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French…What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct…If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs…

As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.”

-Mahatma Gandhi 1938



And I put my trust in Ghandi, what he's saying is what I was trying to excplain is what I beleive in.



Oh, and I'll excuse your sarcasm.



I would like to apologise for the 'Hitler thing' but I can't. I sincerely beleive the holocaust happened and it was a terrible incident, but this does not give Israel the excuse to take advantage of it. It makes me sick that Israel uses the 'Nazi' gimmic throwing it at any one who opposes them.



The 'Hitler thing' is true, it does not have official concentration camps, but holocaust's definition is the wiping out of one race's existence. Deir Yassen, the Nabula etc are just a few of the villages they wiped out of Arabs and built on their graveyards.



So, yes, what their doing, is ethnic cleansing, thus a holocaust.



So, I could say sorry for offending you, but the truth offends alot of people, so people should get used to it.



I totaly agree with Seasonalmencholic about the whole killing under the 'fight terrorism' scam.



About the incompetent Arab leaders we have today, I am totaly disgusted and shamed by their inaction. None of their people are tolerating it and it has been shown on the news several times, the Arab people rebelling and striking against their leader's inaction.



Arab summits are really pathetic. Hey, by the way, did any of you think that a large amount of the Jewish people living in Israel are ethnic Arabs and Ethopians and such? They aren't all European jews. Also, there are great numbers of ethnicaly Arab people of the Jewish faith in several Arab countries e.g Syria and Jordan, so I dont understand why you would suggest we want to kill our own people. Please explain so I can get what you mean.



I too saw some factual erros in my post. Sorry.

Otherwise, thanks for the advice NotDarcy, I apreciate it.

Alot of the facts are a bit hazy since I did them last for my exam, can you please point out some of the other technical mistakes I made. I would apreciate it.



First of all...gold..godilks,I apreciate your blatant assumption that I am American which tells me alot about your prejudjing of things. And second, re-read my post, I said nothing about Israel being truly bad, there are some really cool Jewish people out there, and Israeli's too. Susan Nathan is an awesome example, she works for equal rights for both Arabs and Israeli's in Israel.



I have nothing wrong with anyone being Israeli, I do not, unlike you, judje someone's nationality and thus automaticaly their character, people I cannot tolerate are those who refuse to see the injustice of some of the policies Israel is pursuing.



Israel should exist within its boundaries suggested by the U.N mandate, thats all i ask.



And first of all, your bigotry in assuming that Arabs teach their children to hate Israelis and Jews is by far the stupidest thing I've heard all this month.



Thankyou for proving me right on your biase.



Same goes to Levin06Kitty who has been pathetic enough in not reading my posts thoroughly and immediately going on the defensive (and attack, mind you) to assume I am anti-semite.



Hello, the termi Anti-semite cannot be used on a Semite. And since everyone ignores the fact that Arabs ARE SEMITES, I'll excuse you this time.



I AM A SEMITE, I CANNOT HATE OTHER SEMITES.



there, all written in pretty capitals.

"Do you ever read the news? I think not. You are indeed anti-semetic. Anyone who calls the Jewish state Zionist is anti-semitic. Israel was formed legally. the Israili Arabs have far more freedom than under Hamas. Israel has repeatedly been rocketed by Hamas led guerillas. Hamas controls an independant Gaza ***** (illegally) If you don't believe that talk to some of the West Bank Palestinians. Hamas' was formed to "drive the Jews from Palestines." They vow to exterminate the Jewish state. I think your blog here is a blatant piece of propoganda written by someone who knows nothing of the history of Palestine - either that or who is lying. Have a good day. For me, I will support ALL people except idiots such as the ones who run Hamas.

Gaza was one of the places Palestinians danced in the streets when the idiots crashed their planes into the WTC."









I find every word of that both offensive and untrue.





Please, debate amongst yourselves over this, but do it with facts and logical arguements, not sweeping generalisations.





If you want to argue with me on it, I want to see fact. I want to see what laws allow this. And I will hand you back fifty that forbid it.





I am drained on this issue. I have poured my heart and soul into trying to help these people. I cannot get involved in petty arguments on something that means so much to me.





as for the person who says this happens in lots of places every day; I fight for those people too. THis is just an issue that really gets me, as American press stops anyone knowing the truth.

Thanks Cyanide - yes you have some good points there. I can totally see how such an experience would change you, and change your emotional reaction to the whole debate.

Maybe I'll try to make it over there one day... hehe though a tour of war zones not my usual ideal holiday... :o)

"No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent,a partof the main;...any man's death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind".

John Donne knew it,and LaTristesseDurera knows it too.

So should we all.

This is not an arguement I am willing to enter into.



I live in the UK and our media are biased too. In fact, many are, considering Israel wont let journalists in during times of 'war'. I get my news from a variety of sources, included democracynow, b'tselem, and al jazeera, and my opinions are based on these, my personal humanitarian beliefs, and from talking to people from both Israel and Palestine.





I have made my feelings clear. Israel have been illegally occupying parts of Palestine for over 60 years, yet because they are bestest buddies with the US they get away with it. I can provide back up for all these facts if you feel that is necessary.





as for this '.this is not your countries,your war or your problem!.'





as long as people like me are killing people like me, it is indeed my problem, and I will fight to the death for every one of those people.

SecretKinkster,how can I put this politely? What a load of bollocks!

Hamas are the government in Gaza,not in all the Palestinian territories. Comparing Hamas with Fatah in such a fatuous way reveals a fundamental lack of understanding of the historic differences between the two.

"Just check out YouTube" - and see the Israeli propaganda. They have admitted using YouTube and other outlets like Twitter as a front in the information war. At least one YouTube posting has been shown to be a phony,conflated to try and excuse an attack on civilians. Take it at face value? Not very smart. And what could be more "cowardly,cynical and evil" than Israel's brutal assault on Gaza,killing hundreds of civilians and committing a number of appalling atrocities in the process.

And as for Israel being the only democracy and non-belligerent...don't you know any history at all? Half the reason Israel's neighbours aren't democracies is the threat of attack by Israel,as has happened so many times,helps repressive regimes justify themselves. Never heard of 1956? Israel attacked Egypt. 1967? Israel attacked its neighbours. 1982? Israel invaded Lebanon...Plus numerous "reprisals",assassinations...you don't really know this stuff,do you?

"Ancestral home of the Jews"...not since the 1st-2nd century. The Romans ran Britain until the 5th century. Does that make Britain the "ancestral home of the Italians"? There's no arguing with the religious zealots,but everybody else relies on history,archaeolgy,DNA,and not taking anything before the Treaty of Westphalia too seriously in terms of nationhood. Needless to say,the Israelis haven't been whiter than white on the textbook front,either. Depends which books you read. Some historians have more integrity than others. Try Benny Morris and Tom Segev.

"Gaza is unoccupied"? Try "blockaded" - amounts to the same thing for practical purposes. Then there's the West Bank,the Golan Heights,East Jerusalem and the Shebaa Farms...they're occupied,in defiance of international law,and the US foots a big chunk of the bill and says "bite me!" whenever the UN tries to get Israel to obey a Resolution...you know,like the one we invaded Iraq for violating,sort of...

Goldenarrow, I don't think it's a bad idea at all to have alternative views on this issue. And, while you're right that Hamas is not the entire issue, they are the government in power right now and they are anything but focused on peace. They continually use their people as pawns and canon fodder - much like Yasser Arafat used to do - in order to score political points. Just check out Youtube and see the dozens of examples of rockets being fired by Hamas soldiers right next to schools, mosques and large partment buildings. It's a cowardly, cynical and evil strategy that seeks to have "innocent" people killed, just as it was designed by Hamas!



Also, it's just not fair or accurate to say that Israel has been "illegally dominating" Palestine for 6o years. Israel has been the sole democracy and the only non-belligerent nation in the area. It's survival has been challenged by its neighbors time and time again and what's worse, it continues to deny that Israel is the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people. Just take a look at some Palestinian schoolbooks and you'll see they say that ancient Jewish coins and pottery were not indigenous to Israel, but were "planted" there. If that's the case, then Jesus never existed either. I guess there were only good, shiny Palestinians there at the time of the Bible - LOL.



Sorry, but as long as Plaestinain authorities sow the seeds of hate, continue to lob missles when Gaza is UNOCCUPIED, and deny the historical connection between Israel and the Jewish people - the Palestinians do not deserve a state of their own.

Cyanidebreathmint,

Good to hear you're more moderate now! :o) There's oo much radicalism on this topic, I agree, that doesn't help anyone.

I'm happy to hear you went to visit Israel, but I'm not convinced that this gives you a more "factual" point of view.

There are many people who live in Israel and Occupied Terriotories, both Arabs and Jews, who have been fed disinformation from an early age, through the media, religious groups, and self-serving politicians. Simply visiting one group of people who are firmly planted on one side of the conflict does not necessarily give one a balanced view, it may actually give a more disorted view. Had you spent an equal time living in the Gaza ***** and in Israel, I would be much more convinced by you...

GA.

Well I've got a few things to ask of any readers of this pretty long string. I'll number them to try to make it easier.



1. The first thing, and perhaps most important, is a plea to everyone to NOT let EP become like every other place on the net with respect to this issue. As I understand it, EP provides separate areas where people with COMMON EXPERIENCES can gather. The name of this experience group is "I believe Palestine should be free from Israel". While I don't believe we should just sit around agreeing with each other, I would like eveyone who visits this group to be respectful that the main aim is for people who believe that Palestine should be free from Israel, can discuss that belief.



2. Please do try and get some historical perspective on this. I recommend Wikipaedia on the 6 day war, the King David Hotel bombing, the British mandate etc. In a way, the legitimacy of Hammas or not is not the entire issue - Israel have been dominating Palestine illegally for over 60 years. If nothing else, please read the comment by Arabcore above, which gives some usual historical details. Thanks Arabcore! I tried to message you and add you as a friend but your profile blocked me. :o(



3. For those of you living in America, just remember that the mainstream view in your country is NOT typical of the world on this issue. US gives around 3 billion dollars a year to Israel, and feeds it with military equipment and expertise. It is fundamentally "on side" with Israel and US citizens who want unbiased information on the issue have to push past a powerful pro-Israeli bias in your media. The same applies in Australia (where I live) but not as strongly. Europe & UK is better.



4. Peace to the sufferers in Gaza, to the milliions of Palestinian refugees, and to all Jews and Arabs caught up in a an awful mess that has gone on way too long.

never gonna happen whilst religion is still in the picture

get rid of the religious nut jobs and maybe it will stand a chance otherwise forget it..

M nt surPrisd 2 mst pPls negative c0ment 2 dis p0st.bt i suport this grup with all my c0nfidence and force.i firmly believe palestinians deserves their freed0m and israel has n0 RIgHt to opPres them like they hav beEn doing since yearz.d0nt u ppl watch tV or read newsPaper?have u seEn d photos of kids dieD in israeli b0mbin?why were they killd?wat was their fault?a father has to idntify his 18m0nths daughtr by her teEth becz her rest part is in shreDS.a husbnd cme bAk to house nd find his wifE in pieces of limbs.how cn u clL this a anti terorist war?they r thr0win ph0sPhorus 4 g0ds sake!at in0cent palestinians.how cn u suport th0se g0ddamN b*****ds!!its a hol0cAust.a massacre.i d0nt want to go to hstry in zili0n years back discusing who to0k whose land.bt ryt n0w,isRaeli army is kiling inn0cent palestinians wit d fake bAnNer of "fighting terorists'.IsRael trappeD palestinians.puT bArricAdEs in d bordEr.they madE palestine a helL.how cAn 0ne xpect palestinians to sit bAk in h0me withouT any f0od,meDicn n die silently?wat wud u do if ur neiGhb0ur c0untry bloks ur c0untry,isolate it and u cnt go to anyWhere to meet ur relatives or m0re cruicial, cAnt even import esential things??here i must adD I D0NT SUPPORT HAMAS's B0MBING AND SUICIDE ATACKS.bt i also undrStnd dat they were f0rceD to atack.TO SAVE THEIR PPL 4M XTINCTI0N.sme of u menti0nd dat jews were kikd ouT 4m evryWhr in past,r u sayin datz a xcuse dat makes their slaugHtering legal?that also when the victims r children n w0mens?

Doesn't anyone wonder why none of their arab brothers want the Palestinians in their countries? Americans who think that Israel is not a legitimate country should read a little (probably a lot) about the history of this country. It was not a vacant piece of land just waiting for the Pilgrims and all who followed to inhabit it. It was won bit by bit by conquering those who already had claim to it. Further, if you want to argue about who was there first...read the Bible, it was the home of the Jews who were then kicked all over the world for generations. The Palestinians and their arab brothers (who couldn't care less about them, just want the extinction of the Jews) will never let Israelis live in peace because they don't want to live side by side with the Jews. They want the Jews exterminated and Israel "wiped off the map." They teach their children hatred from as early on as they can hold a thought. They lob rockets at Israel...how peaceful...what civilized people does that...what would you do if the Canadians and the Mexicans lobbed rockets at you? Sit back and take it? Say, here, why don't you just take some of our land, I'm sure you'll make a nice neighbor. I think not. The US would decimate any country that did that (what are we doing in Iraq again?). The Palestinians use their children as photo ops by putting them right in the path of danger. It has been said that if the Arabs stopped fighting against Israel there would be peace, if the Israelis stopped fighting against the Arabs it would be genocide. Golda Meir said there would be peace when the Arabs cared as more about their children than hating the Jews. With all that has been going on in its 60 year existance, the Israelis have contributed greatly to the world with scientific and technological discoveries and advancement in medicine and many other important areas. What's coming out of any of the Arab nations besides hatred. Don't be fooled by those who want to paint israel as completely bad..these are civilized people in a very uncivilized part of the world.

Do you ever read the news? I think not. You are indeed anti-semetic. Anyone who calls the Jewish state Zionist is anti-semitic. Israel was formed legally. the Israili Arabs have far more freedom than under Hamas. Israel has repeatedly been rocketed by Hamas led guerillas. Hamas controls an independant Gaza ***** (illegally) If you don't believe that talk to some of the West Bank Palestinians. Hamas' was formed to "drive the Jews from Palestines." They vow to exterminate the Jewish state. I think your blog here is a blatant piece of propoganda written by someone who knows nothing of the history of Palestine - either that or who is lying. Have a good day. For me, I will support ALL people except idiots such as the ones who run Hamas.

Gaza was one of the places Palestinians danced in the streets when the idiots crashed their planes into the WTC.

I agree its not about religion anymore......The Brits were also wrong back in 48.



There is no way peace can be brokered now....too much bloodshed and heartache on both sides for too many generations. It is the place for the beginning of the last great war described in revelations

And error-strewn...

I appreciate your passion,Arabcore,and there is a lot of fact in what you've written,but there are mistakes too. In this argument,you can't make so many and still be taken seriously. The "Hitler" line is wrong on so many levels and offends people like me who are on the same side as you.

Check your facts more carefully in future - I know you're still young. There are lots of real crimes and injustices to be raised. Concentrate on those,and your arguments will be far stronger.

First of all, Palestinians did not just 'turn up' in the faces of Israeli's.

ThIS IS WHAT HAPPENED;

Due to the holocaust, the allies decided to dump the victims in Palestine without considering the Palestinian people.

Arabs complained, Zionist Theodore Herzl had already explained the Arab issue when he established the Zionist movement. Arabs would be pushed out or exterminated, Israel would be won through blood.

Naturaly, the Palestinians were wary of the prophesy of Herzl.

ESPECIALY when the Jews who came into the country and refused to employ Arabs even as field hands. despite the hospitality of the Arabs the fundamental aim of Zionism was to, in the end, occupy Palestine totaly. So the Jews who came into Palestine took the hospitality of the Arabs with daggers held behind their backs, ready to strike the hospitality of the Arabs.

Britan agreed to decrease amount of Jews coming into Palestine. Hence the outrage of the cult groups of Jews in Palestine.

1) Israeli cult groups e.g Stern Gang, were causing increasing casualties on the occupying British who were enforcing the Mandate of two states and making sure immigration of Jews into Palestine was regulated.

2)Due to increasing casualties and the expense and violence, especialy after Israeli bombarding of the King David Hotel (to name a few). British gave up and left the country. They deserted their duty and decided to give Israel free reign.

3)Israel celebrated. Yay.

4)Israel violated the mandate by taking the port of Jaffa from the Arab territory of Palestine agreed by the mandate of 1948. Then declared Israel independence.

5)So comes the Arabs opposition which ofcourse was met with a splendid radical bout of ethnic cleansing. Deir Yassen, Nabula etc are a few of the towns they eliminated of Arabs.

Thats what it was, ethnic cleansing.

And for all those fools ot there who insist Palestinian Arabs left of their own free will, I hope they know the truth. The truth is that Arabs fled under the butting of Israeli threats which ordered their leaving, Arabs that left were forced to under pain of death.

So Israel is not a legal state.

And the U.N? Oh, where were those who supported the justice in the world?

They ignored the issue and did not attempt to stop the problem, until now its too late.

I despise suicide bombings, but that is all some people are able to do under the overwhelming odds which Pro-iSRAELI MEDIA KEEPS ON IGNORING.

Hammas wants Israel to move back into the areas agreed by the mandate, they are illegaly occupying the Arab territory agreed to the mandate.

That is all Hammas wants.

So before you automaticaly form the Israeli's as victims, recognise the continual ethnic cleansing going on today. Arabs are being wiped out in the Gaza *****.

Yes, I'm passionate about the issue. But my goal is to change the ignorance of others, I cannot tolerate ignorance.

First, I have nothing against the Jewish people, what I cannot tolerate is the Zionism which wants to dominate Palestine.

Israel has a right to exist, but so does Palestine.

Not all the people of Israel are to blame, their ignorance is the same ignorance as those Germans in the holocaust brainwashed by Hitler. How were they to know about the concentration camps when Hitler did not permit them to? When he used propaganda against their weak spirits?

But ignorance cannot be accepted, it must be changed and modelled iso people can see what the real truth is.

And also, Hammas's kitchen utensil home made bombs fired into Israel cause far less damage than Modern manufactured armed warfare Israel showers upon the little ***** of land the Arabs live on.

This does not mean that bombing is right, but neither does it give Israel the excuse to target schools, hospitals and innocents under the excuse that they are killing Hammas. Are little kids and women or innocent working moms and dads in Palestine valid to be recognised and generalised as members of Hammas?

This is ethnic cleansing

so somebody read a real History book or even some John Murphy.

Israeli's are doing to Arabs what Hitler was doing to them.

This has to stop, Israel has to move back to the mandate agreed territories. No sane person can tolerate anything less.


Whew! That was long!

Like them or not (and personally I don't),Hamas have got to be part of the solution. The tragedy is that Israel's brutality will strengthen them in the medium term.

And cyanide,"(Hamas)...who mostly aren't Palestinian"? That's fantasy.

Who have you been talking to - Avigdor Lieberman?

okay.

The original plan for partitioning the area by the United Nations back in 1948 called for two states.



See: United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181

The UN Partition Plan for Palestine

November 29, 1947 at http://www.mideastweb.org/181.htm



History of course shows something different happened.

Personally, and I accept that my views are rather extreme, possibly offensive, and I will probably get flamed for them, I struggle to recognise Israel, or I can at least understand why Hamas refuse to. They have technically been illegally occupying Palestine for 60 years. Their grounds for occupation seem ludicrous to many. I understand the want to establish a nation, however one cannot just occupy a country because of history and holy books. Not when lives are at stake.

I agree, however they must be recognised....





Israel say they want a two state solution, but refuse to recognise Hamas as the head of the state, a pretty good bail out if you ask me.



Personally I do not support a two state solution, but it is better than nothing, however it will not happen until people realise that Hamas are democratically elected...





No one refused to negotiate with Bush because he was the best of a bad bunch....

Thank you.....





I am still unsure how I feel about Israel, and what they have done to Arabs, but I havent researched this enough to state any opinions I only think I might have.... on the other hand, this issue I have researched a lot, and have spent a lot of time listening to both sides, and this is my conclusion, that I do not feel will change.