Post

It's A Cult!!!

(Among the answers to problems with Mormonism I present the following --- about one of the most distinguished Mormons--- and responded to by an outstanding former professor at BYU and the University of Utah).

Among the problems that I see with Mormonism is the fact that intelligent, experienced qualified people (often even professors at BYU) now fired from their positions and excommunicated from their church, still hang onto its claims.

They question the claims for the Book of Mormon that it is historically true. Surely they realize that archaeologically, geographically and historically it fails every test-- but though they do not get along with the Apostles and Prophets, they still want to be Mormons.

If the claims for the Book of Mormon are not true then Joseph Smith was an outright fraud.

How can sincere, intelligent Mormons continue to argue on behalf of a "Mother God," or other distinctly Mormon teachings?

Surely one or Mormonism's greatest men was Brigham Henry Roberts. Roberts (1857-1933) was one of their most able and devoted men.

The Fall 1997 issue of Dialog: of Mormon Thought. vol. 30. No. 3 (a publication of men and women of whom I wrote in my first paragraph), contains an article by Brigham D. Madsen, a Professor Emeritus of History from the University of Utah) This is found on pages 87-97 of Dialogue.

Brigham D. Madsen. a graduate of Harvard in 1960, was a distinguished professor BYU, was editor of Defender of the Faith, the B.H. Roberts Story, published by the pro-Mormon press. Bookcraft in 1980 and editor of Robert's Studies of The Rook of Mormon published by the University of Illinois Press(1985).

Longtime President of BTU. Ernest L. Wilkinson, co-author of Brigham Young University School of Destiny (1976), not only mentioned Madsen approvingly but described him as an "experienced scholar' and a "popular author and lecturer on religious subjects." He mentioned that Madsen's "traveling and lecturing took him to 60 different college campuses during the first year" of his association with BYU" (pg 797) He also represented BYU in "a commuting professorship in Mormon Studies at the Graduate Theological Union at the University of California at Berkeley"

On page 856, Wilkinson and his coauthor reported that was "to establish broader contacts with other related organizations' and "religious groups throughout the world"

Now l will not take the time to more than mention that Roberts was the author of the six volume Comprehensive History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. My copy was published by Brigham Young University Press in 1965. It was revised by Roberts (and brought up to-date, April 6th.1930")

However, my immediate interest is provoked by the Dialogue Vol. 30, No. 3, pgs. 87-97 article by Brigham O. Madsen!

I've always heard that a genuine scholar-- let the chips fall where they may--places his scholarship above his personal desires, lifelong convictions, etc

Perhaps this is Madsen's Dilemma!

He relates that during the first 100 years of the Mormon Church's history (1830-1930) few members questioned the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Those leaving usually left over disputes over leadership, concern over polygamy, discouragement about persecution and physical hardship, etc.

Archaeology, origins of natives found here by Columbus, etc. were not well advanced. Hardships of crawling over the plains, problems with the US Government over polygamy, etc. left little lime to be concerned with the historicity of The Book of Mormon.

B.H. Roberts, a member of the Counsel of the Seventy, was to be chief defender of this "new world document," at first he spent his time advancing what he considered the biblical proofs of the veracity or the Book of Mormon.

As a result he wrote his three volume New Witness for God in 1909. About this time(1902) Roberts mentioned that he found no conflict between archaeological science and the Book of Mormon.

HE dismissed "rather lightly," Madsen says. "any accusation that Joseph Smith could have used other works as a basis for a fictional account of the origin of the American Indians..." He "even dismissed Ethan Smith's 1823 edition of View of the Hebrews, an error that "he later acknowledged."

He assured his readers that later explorations would add proof to the historicity of Smith's work. Just 13 years later, he changed his mind. In 1921. Rogers asked Mormon leaders five pointed questions. He produced 141 type written pages entitled Book of Mormon Difficulties.

Among his questions were: How could so many Indian languages evolve over the relatively short period of 1,000 years? The Book of Mormon mentions steel when the Jews had no knowledge of it in 600 BC, the use of silk in America which was unknown at the time of Columbus. The real problem Robert's had. "what about the use of horses in the Book of Mormon times?"

In early 1922, Roberts brought his problems before his fellow "general authorities". They spent three days in study. Madsen reports (page 89) that the LDS authorities "seemed little interested in his (Robert's) investigation."

Robert's Studies of the Book of Mormon (pg 271) concludes that "The evidence is I sorrowfully submit, points to Joseph Smith as author of their (the Book of Mormon story) creator"

Madsen says (pg 89 of the Dialogue article). "One can sympathize with Roberts and his sorrow that, after venerating and admiring Joseph Smith for a lifetime, he now had concluded him as less than a prophet."

He then concluded that "If the Book of Mormon itself could be proved to be other than it claims to be... then the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, it's message and doctrines, which in some respects may be said to have risen out of the Book of Mormon must fall; for if that book is other than it claims to be; if it's origin is other than that ascribed to by Joseph Smith, then Joseph Smith says that which is untrue; he is a false prophet of false prophets; (and all he has taught and c!aimed) are not only vain but mischievous and wicked;...... (and) beyond human comprehending".

Madsen says (Dialogue, pg 91). " The overwhelming evidence of these finds during the last 5O years casts grave doubts, if not outright disbelief about the Book of Mormon as history".

The Lost Tribes theory have long since been discarded." He says "scientists today are firm that Native Americans are related to the people of Northeastern Siberia. (Oriental).

The writer of the article (Madsen) says "some investigation.... would have intrigued Roberts ".

Roberts spent more than half a century defending the Book of Mormon Dialogue. (pg 93).

Today, "over seventy years later, Loyal but questioning Mormons" have resulted in a number of independent "study groups." Madsen insists their questioning should not result in their rejecting the claims of Mormonism.

Why not?

Edward H. Ashment in New Approaches to the Book of Mormon (pg 374). edited by Brent Lee Metcalfe, says: "Unfortunately there is no direct evidence to support the historical claims of the Book of Mormon----nothing archaeologically, nothing physiological.

"The Metcalf volume is sufficient to illustrate that some of them (recent books by Signature Books and the University of Illinois Press) cast serious questions on the Book of Mormon as history.` (Dialogue. pg. 94)

"Were there really gold plates and ministering angels or was there just Joseph Smith seated at a table with his face in a hat dictating to a scribe a fictional account of the ancient inhabitants of the Americas?' (Dialogue pg. 95)."

It is no wonder that Roberts wrote that if it were other than Joseph Smith claimed, then "he is a false prophet of false prophets; and all he taught. . . (was) not only in vain but wicked." (Studies of the Book of Mormon, pg 12).

The tragedy of it all is that when Mormons finally come to the truth that there is nothing to Mormonism, they often decide that all religion is a fraud. What a pity? I think I never saw a real atheist until I went to Utah nearly 57 years ago. There are many of them there! Mormonism (and the Devil) is the culprit!
(from http://mmoutreachinc.com/mormons/whatswrong.html)

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they believe your Church is wrong, your Christian creeds are abomination to God, and you pastor or Priest is a hireling of Satan.

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that there is salvation only in their church and all others are wrong.

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that those who have been through their temples are wearing sacret underwear to protect themselves from "evil". This "evil" includes non-Mormon religions like yours.

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU about their secret temple rites at all. If they did, you would spot them as non-Christians immediately.

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they think "familiar spirits" are good, and that their Book of Mormon has a "familiar spirit". Leviticus 19;31 says familiar spirits defile one, and are to be avoided at all costs.

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that women receive salvation only through their Mormon husbands, and must remain pregnant for all eternity.

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they intend to be gods themselves some day, and are helping to earn their exaltation to godhood by talking to you.

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they intend to have many wives in heaven, carrying on multiple sex relations throughout eternity, until they have enough children to populate their own earth, so they can be "Heavenly Father" over their own planet!

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that you were once a spirit-child of their heavenly father, and one of his numerous wives before you were born on earth.

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that the Virgin Mary really wasn't a virgin at all but had sex relations with their heavenly father to produce the Mormon version of Jesus Christ

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that their leaders taught that Jesus had at least three wives and children while he was on this earth.

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that the "heavenly father" they ask you to pray to with them, is really an exalted man that lives on a planet near the star base Kolob, and is not the Heavenly Father of the Bible at all.

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that Jesus was really Lucifer's brother in the spirit world, and it was only due to a "heavenly council" vote that Jesus became our redeemer instead of Satan!!

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that there are over one hundred divisions in Mormonism. They conveniently "forget" this while criticizing the many denominations within the body of Christ

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that all their so- called scriptures such as the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and even their official "Mormon Doctrine" statements contradict each other on MAJOR doctrinal points. The King James Bible is likewise contradicted.

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that the reason the Book of Mormon has no maps is because there is not one scrap of archaeological evidence to support it!

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that the state of Utah, which is predominately Mormon, has a higher than the national average of wife-beating, child abuse, and teenage suicide.

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that their prophet Joseph Smith was heavily involved in the occult when he founded Mormonism.

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that that they encourage visitations from dead relatives from the "spirit world", a practice forbidden in the Bible. (Deuteronomy 18:10- 12.)

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that there are many accounts of Joseph Smith's first vision besides he one they present to you, and all are different

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that their secret temple oaths are based on the Scottish Rite Masons.

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that for years they considered the Negro race inferior, and even one drop of Negro blood prevented a person from entering their temple.

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they expect Christ to return to their temple in Missouri, but they haven't built the temple He's supposed to return to, because they don't own the property. (It is owned by the "Temple Lot Mormons" who have plans o of their own, and won't let the Salt Lake City group buy it).

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they consider the Bible to be untrustworthy and full of errors.

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that Jesus' death on the cross only partially saves the believer.

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that that according to Anton Lavey's Satanic Bible, the demon god of the living dead is called "Mormo". Is it just a coincidence that the Mormons are so concerned with the dead?

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that on their Salt Lake City Temple they prominently display an upside-down star which is a Satanic symbol known as the Goat's head.. Why?

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they believe the Archangel Michael came down to earth with several of his celestial wives, and became Adam in the garden of Eden.

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that that they believe the angel Gabriel came down to earth and became Noah in the days of the flood.

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that their Prophet Joseph Smith prophesied falsely many times. For example, he foretold the second coming of Christ for 1891. The Bible teaches that one false prophecy puts a prophet under death sentence. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22).

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that their Prophet Joseph Smith did not die as a martyr as they claim, but was killed during a gun battle in which he himself killed two men and wounded a third.

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU about the Mountain Meadows Massacre in which they brutally murdered an innocent wagon train of settlers, of over one hundred men, women, and most of the children, traveling through Utah.

MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that Joseph Smith taught that there were inhabitants on the moon, and Brigham Young taught there were inhabitants on the sun as well!



WHY WON'T MORMONS TELL YOU THESE THINGS?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the Mormons, are well aware that if these facts were known to the convert prior to baptism, they would have very few converts! The Missionaries are well trained to keep most of these facts from their potential converts.

Tragically, many Mormons may not even be fully aware of the doctrines and history of their own church. Every statement on this tract is true. Mormons are encouraged to check out their own publications for documentation of the above. After all, if the Mormon Church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) has the truth, it can stand any amount of investigation.

(from http://www.mmoutreach.org/mormon/articles/facts_mormon_wont_tell.htm)

Of course, there is even more, and in fact even worse things going on with them. There are numerous books available on the subject, if you feel the need to delve further into this. I also have a huge amount of personal experience with them and may be able to answer most questions.

Thank you for reading
~Jophiel
VincentValentine VincentValentine 31-35, M 14 Responses Dec 29, 2011

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My goodness, really? A cult? And really? You have nothing else that interests you then trashing someone's religion? Sad...

Yeah, they are on my list. I must cure humans of stupidity, you know.

In that case. Are the Jehovah Witnesses next? They could use some of your attentions. :) Evil Cults.

The truth will never offend me. Oh, and besides that I am not Catholic ;)

They are NOT equally corrupt as the Mormons, though. The problems they have are a separate discussion for a separate group however, and have absolutely no bearing on the problems with the mormon pseudo-Christian cult - which is specifically what I am addressing here.

It's actually me trying to avoid offending you by stating that the Catholic Church is every bit as corrupted as the LDS one is. Even down to it's foundation. Because the Roman Catholic Church was founded as a political organization and a call to power over the people. Not for Gods sake but for the sake of power hungry elitists. No matter what we do as humans we can never seem to escape our roots. That is why I say. It is the heart of the person that matters. Organizations carry no warmth. They are cold dead places. People, servants sharing their compassion, that is where you will find Gods warmth.

That is avoiding the specific problem

When it comes down to it every religious organization is dangerous. There isn't one I know of that has not been fully infiltrated by the Illuminati. (Free Masons)~The people that fund your libraries... It's all basically cut from the same cloth. The one thing I can't stand about any organization is the lack of transparency. The "blind servant" representation of hierarchy and trust. When you allow leaders the freedom to hide behind closed doors you give permission for the darkest and most foul of things to come creeping in for a hidden place to do their evil works.



There is a need for understanding here. When you have nothing to hide you do not keep things in secret places. Secret covenants, secret rituals. These are not kept secret for any sacred reason. They are kept secret to gain power over you. Or to hold truths from you. Only things that are corrupt dwell in secret places.

That is one thing that is very spiritually dangerous about it actually. They follow a false prophet, a false Jesus, and a false Bible. It is doubly dangerous because they believe that they are saved.

Jophiel, I can appreciate your post from a certain perspective. However it suggests a sinister reason for this churches existence. Being originally raised LDS I can tell you the people in the organization are just that stupid. It doesn't matter how high up you go, none of them get it.



Joseph was a fraud. The Book of Mormon reads more like a badly written book of threats then an hysterical account.



LDS people tend to be very family orientated. And they give and give and give. It's all about Charity. Genealogy (Family History). Family. And Choosing The Right (CTR). You've seen those CTR rings right? They all wear them.



Yes they are idiots. But lets be fair. The real roots of the church died with Joseph Smith. There isn't a Mormon alive that understands their own histories. If there were. Like me. They would no longer be LDS/Mormon.

There are more and more people leaving the Mormon church, and religion every day. The internet is religions enemy!

I left the Mormon religion as well when I did my own research into the claims.

You know reading your post I just want to laugh. First of all your grammar is scary. Second I do understand the history of my church and I can appreciate no one is perfect however I know the book to be true. I am not part of a cult nor am I brain washed. I do want to point out the distinct difference from my church and the fundamental/reorganized church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They do not follow the church teachings in truth and I feel are exploiting their women. On a realistic level many people leave the church for their own reasons. And I respect that. But I dont think trashing us is very classy. As you pointed out we are family, charity, and service orientated. How again is that a bad or occult like? And just for the record "just that stupid all the way up" we have members that are neuro surgeons to fast food workers. I don't think we are stupid across the board. Really. Ignorance is simply astounding especially when people look in their own mirror. Peace out.

Who were you specifically directing your comment toward? I appreciate that you have your own perspective but if you can't appreciate that others have a different perspective, you should probably just keep it to yourself. And what does someone's profession have to do with their religion? Their are many forms of intelligence, spiritual, moral, emotional, social,... I understand wanting to defend your personal investments but one does not qualify the other. The lds or Mormon church is based on a certain perception of our histories as a people and a certain perception about God, worship and the afterlife. We have every right to ask questions, find doubts, and seek different perspectives. Not believing everything one hears or is taught does not make one ignorant, in fact it often does the opposite. It opens the door to the possibilities. I don't have to prove I'm right or wrong, I simply have to be true to myself. If you have found your truth, so be it, but do not sit there and pretend your perspective has any more right to existence then mine. Unless you are proud of your arrogance and your outward rejection of others. // now I originally wrote my response to this post tactfully, hoping to increase outside perspectives. I don't see the church as a danger or a cult. I even have a deep appreciation for the morals and family teachings of the church. I specifically noted my lack of belief in the doctrine histories of the church. I don't personally find it to be anything more then a rouse for attention by a man. I know that makes it seem like I am attacking you personally. But I hold no hostility towards you nor any other. I am not surprised by your response of course. You have chosen to align your sense of personal identity with things completely outside of yourself. So it can be very confusing to have to find yourself face to face with someone that lives outside of that self made box. Just don't think saying things like "how ignorant, and peace out" are in any way effective communication tools when dealing with people like me. And by that I mean people who avoid mass thinking and prefer an individual Who acts like an individual and can, at least somewhat, think for themselves on these matters. And acting offensive while pretending to be offended is not impressive to me either. If you want my respect for your perspective I would expect you to show respect for mine. As well as for others. Or do you just expect me to "know better" somehow? am I expected to behave as if you are right and I am wrong? Is this the ideal inside of your head that permits you to use your religion as an excuse to talk down to me, due to my lack of religion? I think not.

Oh wow. You say you don't pass judgement on others yet check the tone of your letter... You allow differing opinions and I can't have mine without a book in reply? Really? And I replied to someone else on here, not you tho I am rolling my eyes at this point because clearly he removed that now. But to clarify, I have as much of a right to defend my thoughts and religion as do you do disliking it. I don't have a problem with you tho I am surprised you feel the need to even address Mormons anywhere on any site considering you say you have moved on past that point of your life. Odd that. And I mentioned money because he claimed many Mormons thro the ranks are rich yet universally stupid. I disagree. It's hard to be intelligent yet stupid. Please define intelligent. That clearly is relative so you can't. And frankly I don't live in a box by sharing my religious views with my church nor do I feel I am not an independent thinker ( though you clearly judge people by your standard of box thinking... Which is what I would like to know? Again something that is relevant... ) I applaude your endeavors to seek your inner desires. I have no interest in you conforming to whatever you don't wish to. I am not arrogant to defend my choice and opinion - just practicing my right as is protected by our forefathers. I am just beyond disgusted with narrow minded bandwagoning and passive aggressive condemnation. And not just of my religious choice it would seem? I know myself, my spirituality tho you seem to think otherwise. How is you seem to know me so well? Or are you stereotyping me possibly with your past experiences? Is there a reason you are so sensitive to people's comments I wonder to write all this? But honestly your condescension is truly what is laughable to me personally. I have never desired your good opinion nor should the lack if it affect me in anyway. I am secure in this area of my life for certain. And your last part...your lack of religion etc? Sounds like you are projecting a lot of your own insecurities or unresolved issues thro this post. Something to think on the next time you choose to get so self righteous yourself. I apologize for replying to this man tho I am not feeling it for you.

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Something everyone needs to know, especially if they are considering joining.

wow...incredible

Wow. .very informative.

They claim to be about Jesus, but it is a different Jesus than we believe in, you know? The founder, Joseph Smith, was given a vision from a demon that told him to write the book of mormon and to start the religion.

I never encounter a Mormon before research them. what are they really about?