Post
Experience Project iOS Android Apps | Download EP for your Mobile Device

Marriage Vows In 2012

A news article has been running in my country, I am sure you will find this a great read.

To love and to submit: a marriage made in 2012

Kelly Burke

BRIDES will be promising to submit to their husbands under a new marriage vow the Anglican diocese of Sydney is expected to approve at its synod in October.

It requires the minister to ask of the bride: ''Will you honour and submit to him, as the church submits to Christ?'' and for her to pledge ''to love and submit'' to her husband.

The service is already being used in some Sydney parishes, under a diocese that opposes the full ordination of women and supports an exclusively male leadership doctrine.

The vows were written by the diocese's liturgical panel, which has the imprimatur of the Archbishop, Peter Jensen. The panel chairman, the Bishop of South Sydney, Robert Forsyth, said ''submit'' was a deeply biblical word.
Advertisement

''The Bible never said women must obey their husbands but Paul and Peter did say submit, which I think is a much more responsive, nuanced word.''

The bishop said no one would be forced to use the new version, and an alternative would remain available to couples who did not want the woman to obey (which has been optional since 1928) or submit.

Kevin Giles, a New Testament scholar in Melbourne, said the subordination of women was exclusively related to ''the fall'' in the Bible and in 2012 made for bad theology.

''Jesus not once mentions the subordination of woman and says much in contradiction to this. Paul's comments over the subordination of women fit into the patriarchal culture of the day and are not the biblical ideal. The truth is that happy marriages today are fully equal, and unhappy marriages are ones where one or the other party is controlling.''

Muriel Porter, a Melbourne academic and laywoman who writes on Anglican Church issues, said submit was a more derogatory word than obey and had connotations of slavery. ''Frankly I'm horrified,'' she said. ''It is a very dangerous concept, especially in terms of society's propensity for domestic violence.''

But Stephanie and Andrew Judd from Sydney, who used part of the new service when they wed in January, said those who were offended by the word were not placing it in the right context.

''The husband's love is one of sacrificial love, and to submit to that kind of love is not oppressive, but is actually a joy and a great freedom,'' said Mrs Judd, 26, who teaches Christian studies at a private girls' school.

Mr Judd, 27, who is studying to be a minister, said a Christian marriage was akin to dancing: ''The male always leads, even if he's not necessarily the best dancer … as long as you take the definition of male leadership that we're operating on, which is giving yourself up and putting others' interests ahead of yourself.''

The Primate of the Anglican Church of Australia, Archbishop Phillip Aspinall, declined to comment.



hhue hhue 26-30, F 28 Responses Aug 28, 2012

Your Response

Cancel

It's hardly a revolution Brides have promised to "love honour and obey" for centuries !

kay and lee are book ends of the same **** stick lol

<p>lee and kay>>. look like u guys are related</p>

You cannot stand not being the center of attention. tsk tsk tsk,

A-tisket, a-tasket.... .which one are you lee ? kay, can take the other.

and lee is just as much of a ******* as he accuses others of .....

poor poor him he is pist off because not every female finds him worthy lol

FYI, the big mouth gypsyblu has blocked me so I cant respond to any of her disgraceful comments. So if you dont see me correcting her, dont think it is because she has in any way 'cowed' or subdued me.

Most of us ignore her. She is just a sh!t stirrer.

A brown paintstick, got it.

Kaveman,
Most men don't pick on women. I have noticed you and Lee seem to be "special" in that regard. Wonder why that is....
Gypsy is a lovely woman who has the courage to speak her mind. Kaveman you have been picking on her and you know it.

gum, you just say that because she agrees with you and because she is a woman, if our words had been exactly reversed, changing only the core beliefs, you would be telling her she is not harsh enough on me. I am not 'picking on' anyone, rather I am being verbally accosted by a bunch of brainwashed feminist ninnies and I am just man enough to hold my ground. As for that Lee guy, he seems pretty gentle and polite towards women a lot of the time, much more than I am, so it is clear that you are only bringing him into this because you resent that he seemed to agree with me a little bit. Where was your outrage when your pals told me I deserved to painfully die for what I say and believe a few months ago? There was no outrage from you at all, and if I recall right I think you even agreed with them. You are a hypocrite and a victim of indoctrination. I am going to try not to be as angry as I have every right to be, it may not work, but I am trying, so I will just end this reply here without getting too personal for now.

They pick on all of us Jane. They obviously hate any woman who doesn't view them as superior in every way, and completely submit to them, build up their ego, and let them boss them around and tell them what to do, while those mean, nasty, hateful men probably ridicule them, show disrespect toward them (like they do to us), oppress them, trap them in the relationship financially, and use and abuse them to keep them beaten down and submissive. I am sick and tired of their mean, nasty ridiculing comments. I have decided to be a higher person so I am no longer going to succcumb to their vicious, name calling, abusive, negative, completely unproductive personal attacks anymore. From now on I am only going to respond to people who disagree with me reasonably, and factually. Anything else is a waste of time.

As the crocodile man used to say: "Thats a huge crock!'. What a giant steaming heap of hypocrisy blue, but the end justifies the means if you actually intend to comment to me less, hearing less from you is more to me so up with toning it down.

I agree with gum shoe jane Gypsy is cool wish she lived near me along with other cool people from here

Hello, Jane. Come on now, it doesn't take any "courage" for somebody to mouth off on EP.

"Gypsy is a lovely woman who has the courage to speak her mind. Kaveman you have been picking on her and you know it."

And that is exactly the reason why men like these hunt down and pick on her (and other women on EP like you and I) so much. They can't stand women who have the audacity to speak their mind.

6 More Responses

"Feminist hate marriage." Are you ever going to cut this crap and stop saying things about feminists that are not true? I love being married, and the numerous feminists that I know do also. I love being a traditional wife and mother. I enjoy caring for my family, my home, my pets, my garden and more. I am very feminine. I love wearing makeup, fixing my hair, wearing sexy lingerie, and fashionable clothes. I love to cook, clean, garden, sew, decorate and more. Continuing to spew your venomous rhetoric, and trying to make feminist look like bad people just ends up making you look like a biased, closed minded, bad person yourself. Please wake up and smell the coffee.

yeah, submit to your husband and acknowledge he is your superior and we will all have a cup of that coffee.

Hahaha - yeah sure (eyeroll). That is not reality. My husband doesn't feel that he is superior to me and he doesn't want me to constantly submit to him anymore than I feel that I am superior to him and would want him to constantly submit to me, because neither one of us is an egotistical, arrogant, psychologically unsound, control freak.

We both don't believe that anyone should constantly submit to another person. It should only occur when it is necessary to have something happen easily, correctly, and the best way that it can because someone is better (superior) at something than the other person is. And no one is completely superior to their partner in every single way unless their partner is suffering from mental retardation or is just a complete idiot who doesn't know anything or how to do anything. Even women and men in sub/dom relationships are not submissive or dominant to their partner 100% of the time.

It has been proven, and it is well known, that people who believe that their sex is superior to the opposite sex and that the opposite sex should be submissive to their sex have psychological issues and are not as intelligent as most people, but they are arrogant and egotistical so they think that they are.

My husband and I are intelligent, and are not arrogant, controlling, and egotistical. We recognize that in some ways he is superior to me, and in some ways I am superior to him. As a result in a situation where his superiority is necessary for things to work out the easiest, and best way that they can I submit to him, and the reverse is true in situations where my superiority is necessary for things to work out the easiest and best way that they can.

Anyone who thinks they are superior to the opposite gender in every way and that the opposite gender should always be submissive to them truly is an arrogant, egotistical, fool, and control freak. They really should get themselves to a psychologist to try to let go of that thinking because if they don't they are going to have some things work out badly or not as well as they possibly could, and they are likely to never have a great, loving, connected, happy, fulfilling relationship with their partner (if they actually ever get one at all).

The fact that you can cook, clean, sew, and do other things that are considered "woman's work" does not mean that you can do them better than some women can. The same is true for women. The fact that I am capable of working on my car doesn't mean that I can do it better than my husband can. I accept that he can do it better than me, but that doesn't mean he can do everything better than me or that he is smarter than me or superior to me. My husband accepts that I can cook, sew, and care for our children better than he can and I am therefore superior in those areas, but that doesn't mean I can do everything better than him or that I am smarter or superior to him. I am also superior to him in my career just as he is superior to me in his career. Because neither one of us believes that we are superior to the other and that the other should always submit to us we have a very bonded, synched, passionate, loving, wonderful marriage and life.

It is obvious from what you write that that is not the case with you wolfman so if that is something that you truly want you really should consider finding a way to let go of your male superiority/dominance beliefs that are obviously preventing you from ever having it. If being a loner who just wants to feel superior to others and boss them around is more important to you then by all means keep your arrogant, egotistical, controlling mindset, and good luck to you in having a happy, fulfilling, life as a result.

There's a song with lyric's
Life is a dance, you learn as you go.
Sometimes you lead, sometimes you follow.

There were some things my husband led with and others I did, depending on who knew more or felt more strongly.
He always chose where we went on holiday , but this didn't matter as we both liked beach holidays mainly. Also I had been brought up to think going away on holiday was something 'Other people did,' and expected my honeymoon to be the last one I would ever go on.
A workmate was shocked when in a conversation about cars, I said our new one was a Lada.
"How could you agree to D buying one of those? You should have told him no."
I pointed out that as a non-driver, it would have been wrong of me to choose the car. All I cared was it was safe, and had enough room.

An area where I had all the say, was interior decorating, which my husband was happy with as he was colour blind.

Well said. The only submission I am into is submitting posts to EP, or other sites.

1 More Response

kay>>>> ladyblue, cookie cutter psuedointellectual, like hundreds I have dealt with before, I am tired, it is my bedtime, I will correct you later.

GYPSY....HA HA THAT WILL BE THE DAY.... LADYBLUE IS LIGHT YEARS AHEAD OF YOU KAY, IN, INTELLITEC, REASONING, UNDERSTANDING, BEYOUND THE HERE AND NOW.
YOU ARE NO MATCH FOR LADY BLUE!

iv known 3 men who called themselves Dom/master, all three had issues, were fake, they wanted the title not the responsibility !

It has also been exposed a few times that men who claim they are that way and write related stories, then turn out to be fake, and are actually men who are submissive and dominated by the woman in their life, and what they write is just a fantasy they have about being something they are never capable of being. I suspect that about some of the men who are anti-feminists and claim they are married to submissive wives. Based on what they write it becomes clear they are phonies who are just pretending to be something they are incapable of being. The biased, venomous rhetoric they routinely spew may be a result of the resentment they secretly feel. It would be beneficial for them to get some counseling to work out the issues they have and see if they can change their life to make it better, and stop the continuing resentment they feel toward their partner, and women in general.

While I don't agree with the whole submissive wife thing, I do.support peoples right to live their life as they choose. I also support a woman's right to choose to be submissive. Yeah, Im an MRA and I support women's rights. Wish I could say the same for the feminist below. "Feminism is about equality for women and women's rights! Unless you disagree with our ideology then you are a gender traitor."


Im sorry your story has come under attack. However it isn't surprising. Feminist hate marriage. Especially a traditional or a taken in hand marriage.

But what if I want to be the one to submit to my wife? I mean I already do, as if I didn't our relationship would never work. Where is my vow change?

Why wouldn't it work?

Because I have to do what she says. I'm just along for thesen ride. She is a feminist after all. And you never did answer that pm i sent you a while back asking your advise.

No reason why you shouldn't delineate your own vows, with your wife's permission.

You don't need a written vow to say in a church. You can write your own vows, and say them at home in front of witnesses if you like. God is supposed to be everywhere so he/she will hear you.

1 More Response

"The bishop said no one would be forced to use the new version, and an alternative would remain available to couples who did not want the woman to obey (which has been optional since 1928) or submit."Since it isn't made compulsory, but left for the couples to decide, I don't have a problem with it. If a woman chooses to make a vow of obedience and submission, it's still her choice.Beside, the text from St Paul's asking women to "submit to their husbands" also exhorts husbands to "love their wives like Christ loved the church, to the point of giving his life". Hell, if a guy loves me enough to give up his life, I don't think I'd mind the submitting part all that much.

Dying is easy ...living is hard. I'm not a fan of death cults, I live for my husband and he lives for me.

Best way around, Dente. And I agree, life is much better than death - I'm no fan of death cults either. But I would take a bullet to save a loved one's life, and that is the truth.

you're a sweetheart .

... awwww... thanks. *blushes* That was unexpected.

1 More Response

This sounds a bit too 16th Century for my taste.

16th century was pretty rubbish too

I think it would be a really good idea for this to be a renewal vow, say five years in...

When selecting a mate and taking that next step of marriage. Your personality, your religious beliefs, your values will be what guides you to what should be in your marriage vows.The problem arises, when someone else dictates the vows you will follow. When that happens, now you need to think where your heart and will are in this. And sometimes, if a religios group is too narrow in their view of what is allowed by God, well then people walk,and simply have a civil ceremony.

<p>lee>>>>I have not known one femminist marriage to work long term .</p><p>gypsy>>> i can name a well known feminist who married late in life, just to have her husband to pass on from cancer....</p>

People sure like to play around with words and a lot of these so called leaders sure are apologetic about their faith.

1 Peter 3:5-6 "....being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara OBEYED Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well,...."

These so called Biblical "scholars" who act like JESUS words and Pauls were separate fail to understand that Paul spoke by inspiration of JESUS through THE HOLY SPIRIT and that Pauls teachings were confirmed by the chief apostle Peter who was also guided by THE SPIRIT of GOD. For people to make the assumption that any of the apostles teachings were of their own invention, unless they admit to such or were Judas Iscariot is the same as doubting the veracity and inspired nature of the New Testament. So what so called spiritual leader will say the New Testament is not reliable and still be considered to be of the faith at all?

You either believe or you don't and if you dont believe you have no place trying to teach believers about the faith. So that Kevin Giles guy needs to either go put the dunce cap on and admit he is wrong or get out of class and I wont even bother with Ms. Porter who shouldnt be presuming to teach anyway.

Submit doesnt mean less than obey, it means obey plus more.

Submit and obey do NOT mean the same thing at all!
Submission is a gift a person CHOOSES to give and it involves the heart of a person. It can not be forced but MUST be earned through genuine respect and admiration. Submission can be withdrawn at any time.
Obedience on the other hand does not involve the heart at all and is often given due to force or coercion. Often fear is the motivation.
A person can obey someone but not be in submission at all. For example someone may do as they are told but all the while be cursing silently, seething with internal anger and resentment.
The difference is HUGE. Just as there is a huge difference between wanting to do something and having to do something. I obey the police officer , but I submit to my grandmothers wisdom. See the difference?

Well said! I couldnt agree more......

What a great understanding of the difference between submit and obey. I am glad for one that couples will have the choice for the wife to promise to submit.

You know Mr Kayvman kayl, the bible is a great work, no doubting that, but how factual is it. For example, in all the history books that I have read (including some of Charles Darwin) it is stated that many men, of the era and race which your example referes to owned slaves and their women folk. How much of that is reflected in those verse? How much can you quote from experience rather than some one elses suggestions?

Great comments jane and fred!

Gumshoe, as I said, submission is far more than obedience. I dont know how you could so fail to understand what I said, but as usual you are wrong, and I pity you, but please, for your own good, go away.

uncfred, your comment was just incoherent enough that I am not precisely sure what you are asking. I do get that you are in some form of simpleminded disagreement with me but I want to answer your question, and to do that you will have to explain it a little better. Do you wonder if I have owned other human beings? I know you are trying to earn points with women because you desire affirmative attention from females, but please clarify what you are asking.

.score points with women? rather than being frankly repugnant - gosh fancy that!

Are they really ladyblue? What makes them "great"? jane makes a partially valid point to basically confirm what I said about submission being more than obedience and fred didnt really even make sense, I bet you just dont like what I said and you agree with anyone that opposes me. Why be such a simpleton, dont you know how serious this issue is? I know you dont, but you should.

katarina, I would rather be repugnant and shun every female on this planet than to be self deceptive and weak minded. We must love GOD and HIS truth more than anything else.

"Are they really ladyblue? What makes them "great"?"
They are factually valid and make perfect sense.
"fred didnt really even make sense"
What he wrote made perfect sense to me. Perhaps you just need to be more intelligent to understand what he said.
"I bet you just dont like what I said"
I don't like or dislike what you wrote. I just don't agree with it. Particularly the part where you ridicule and judge people, and express that they are wrong and you are always right.
"Why be such a simpleton, dont you know how serious this issue is?"
JUDGE not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
— Matthew 7:1-5
"I know you dont, but you should."
The word assume comes from the latin words ***, u and me, meaning assuming makes an *** out of you and me.

ladyblue, cookie cutter psuedointellectual, like hundreds I have dealt with before, I am tired, it is my bedtime, I will correct you later.

@ Kayvman...no rush with your correcting...think we've all heard enough drivel....

Oh really sparkling? You call my words "drivel". If you have a relevant argument against what I have said present it.

yes..really....who do you think you are that you call people simpletons &amp; incoherent..simply because they don't happen to agree with you!

"JUDGE not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
Do you understand what this means or is it beyond the scope of your superior intellect - LOL?
BTW - I like your new name woody, but wouldn't NeanderthalmanKayl have been more appropriate? It certainly seems fitting.

I have said this so many times. "Judge not" does not mean never to judge anything, or never to call sin sin. It has a specific contextual meaning. If we were not allowed to judge anything then we would be incapable of all but accidental survival. That passage means, among other things, not to judge according to ones own intellect but according to GODs judgments. We are TOLD to reference GODs judgements and to align our own discernment with them so that we CAN make necessary judgements in life. I will give an example to try to stretch your paradigm. If a believer in THE GOD of the Bible lived near a pagan and knew that the pagan sacrificed the meat of his dinner every night to a pagan idol. Now along comes a famous preacher and visits the pagan man and eats dinner with him but did not see the man sacrifice the meat to the idol because he arrived after it was done. Then the believer that knows the pagan and his practices sees the famous preacher being served and eating the pagan mans meat. He stops and clasps his face in his hands, aghast at what he is seeing, and proclaims: "The famous preacher is eating meat sacrificed to a false god, he is a wicked unrepentant sinner and is ruled by an evil spirit and not GOD". Later on judgement day the believer that knew the pagan man and the preacher stood before GOD. The believer was damned for blaspheming, while the preacher was justified for his evangelism. Why? Because the believer made a presumption. King David prayed one of the wisest prayers ever when he said: "Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins; Let them not have dominion over me. Then I shall be blameless, And I shall be innocent of great transgression."

Presumption is dangerous and so is toleration of those things which GOD does not tolerate. People who are wrong often say "judge not" to get a free pass and encourage sin. But they do not understand the meaning or the mandate for us to judge certain matters.

"JUDGE not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
What that means is you should not judge people because you will be judged in the same way and to the same extent. Its similar to "you will reap what you sow" which means you are going to get back exactly what you put out.

15 More Responses

I really liked your post....after very long I found a very good post on EP.thank you so much for sharing the article in your post...Btw, I personally think obeying husband doesnt mean that wife is submissive and husband is assertive and dominant over her...when a person obey other person it means paying respect to other person, showing love and care.

Obeying a husband really DOES mean obeying him

I am happy to submit to my husband when the circumstances call for it, just as he is happy to do the same for me. I would make this marriage vow if I had to, but honestly I don't understand why anyone would want to since to me this has nothing to do with marriage. To me marriage is about love, caring, and commitment and not who is going to be the boss or the master, and who is going to be the subordinate or the slave.

lady, thank you : )

Excellent explaination........................thank you lady

You're welcome - (curtsy).

My husband and I perposely left out the "OBEY" in our vows for both found it oppressive and degrading for either of us

3 More Responses

I appreciate the support of this article and whilst I am advocate of free speech, please if you cannot keep your criticism to yourself your comments will be henceforth deleted. <br />
Peace and Love <br />
hhue

Thank you for sharing this interesting news article. I am disappointed in the feminist attack on the story though. I expected them of all people to respect a woman's right to choose to submit/obey or not.

You make an excellent point, it is a person's personal choice (male or female) to submit. The freedom to make that choice is feminist. It should be noted that I support ones choice, all I said was that I wouldn't do it.

You aren't supporting someone else's choice in the slightest when you describe it in the vile terms you used and you say you think it would be worth committing suicide to avoid. How gullible do you think we are, Jane?

Gumshoejane, you did say more than what you are portraying in the comment here. I'm not going to debate with you.

"You aren't supporting someone else's choice in the slightest when you describe it in the vile terms you used and you say you think it would be worth committing suicide to avoid. How gullible do you think we are, Jane?"
"Jane, why should we pat you on the back now when you chose to leave up your most offensive remark, which is blatantly misandristic as well as grievously insulting to submissive women?
"You have ALREADY made your opinion known to the submissive women AD NAUSEAM, Jane!"
"Again you are asserting that no submissive woman gets to post a story on EP without you marring it by posting hateful feminist propaganda that they already heard from you many times before."
"And you try to excuse this boorish behavior by calling it "freedom of speech."
"Go "voice your opinion" on your own stories instead of trolling other people's stories!"
"You say you "like women" yet you blatantly disregarded her expressed wishes. And after this selfish, inconsiderate, rude behavior toward her . . .
"I am quite disappointed by you not taking to heart my pleading with you in the previous sub-thread. You show that you are a non-listener."
"You have come in here and VANDALIZED her story. You have made it all about you and your grudge against the male gender instead of what she posted."
I advocate that she delete your comments and block you, knowing that is your habit to invade submissive women's stories with your nasty mud-wrestling. You are a quintessential troll."
"Jane, you seem to think that you can make Male Dom / Female Sub relationships go away by harassing people and dumping your old tired propaganda on them."
You didn't belong at this story in the first place, Jane. . . You had nothing cogent to say; you simply expressed all over again the attitudes that all the submissive women on EP already know you have about these things. That is the epitome of trolling."
"It appears to me that he lashed out at you because he was angry like I was at your treatment of HHue and the other repulsive aspects of your initial post"
"This is part of your monitoring the submissive women groups' . . . without being met with blasts of your unreasoning propaganda. There are plenty of feminist groups for you to post in rather than going on like a broken record . . . Why must you always come and make sure they hear how gumshoejane feels about this? They already know how gumshoejane feels about this, and you haven't persuaded them. You aren't going to persuade them. All you can accomplish is bringing them vexation they do not deserve. . . It should bother you to realize that you are coming here with no possible outcome other than vexing them."
"You are the one who made the vulgar choice to bring up genitals and to do so in a patently demeaning way that would have had you screaming "misogyny" if it had been done the other way around."
"I find your defense of trolling quite unpersuasive. . . After what you said there, believe me I won't be taking seriously anything you have to say about TIH. Nor will the very bright NewChrissy, who commented there."
"She doesn't understand because she doesn't want to understand."
"You have chosen to blatantly disregard her stated wishes and have continued to post here and post here numerous times to boot and to make this story thread all about you. Similar behavior to yours on the part of a male would elicit accusations of "bullying and disrespecting women." And as for you, DA, there are a huge number of women on this site who disagree with your professed assessment of me . . ."
"Your attribution of "non-human" status to women in Old Testament times is entirely uninformed"
"Thanks for making a big deal over a typo--you do them too."
My GOD - personal attack, after personal attack, after personal attack. Isn't it better and nicer to factually dispute what someone is saying than to repeatedly attack them personally? That is what I try to do. I will usually only go on the personal attack after someone does it to me the way the anti-feminists do time and time again. I think that someone who starts out each comment in favor of something by ridiculing someone who opposes it, is very mean. And a comment that just ridicules and criticizes someone personally without even pointing out why they believe that factually what they are saying is wrong, shows they have a personal vendetta against that person which makes me disregard most of what they say from then on because they obviously do not have the ability to be objective and unbiased.

1 More Response

A very interesting story hhue, thanks for posting. I'm sorry it's come under attack :o)

Thank you for posting this article, I can appreciate it. I also find it interesting and a bit bothersome that some of the people quoted in your article, and some that comment here, feel they have a right to condemn others over a very personal choice that has no effect what so ever on them. We all have our opinions but that does not mean we have to right to tell others how to live their lives or decided for another what it is that makes them happy. Their audacity makes me laugh.

I am not really religious and neither is my partner but we were Christened as children and I hope to be able to marry in a traditional church ceremony where I will promise to obey or " submit " this is important to me as it has meaning to our relationship and my promise to Him.

Why on earth any female would feel insulted, slighted or in any way hurt by my remarks here is truly a mystery to me. I like women, its some men I have problems with.<br />
At any rate I will delete my comments except my original one. I do feel that way and like you have every right to voice my opinion. Freedom of speech is a precious right we all should hold dear.

Jane, why should we pat you on the back now when you chose to leave up your most offensive remark, which is blatantly misandristic as well as grievously insulting to submissive women? " I do feel that way and like you have every right to voice my opinion." You have ALREADY made your opinion known to the submissive women AD NAUSEAM, Jane! Again you are asserting that no submissive woman gets to post a story on EP without you marring it by posting hateful feminist propaganda that they already heard from you many times before. And you try to excuse this boorish behavior by calling it "freedom of speech." Go "voice your opinion" on your own stories instead of trolling other people's stories! And furthermore, Jane, hhue has already said below that she doesn't want you to post anymore on this or any other of her stories. You say you "like women" yet you blatantly disregarded her expressed wishes. And after this selfish, inconsiderate, rude behavior toward her, you say "Why on earth any female would feel insulted, slighted or in any way hurt" by you. I am quite disappointed by you not taking to heart my pleading with you in the previous sub-thread. You show that you are a non-listener.

jane cc said he is very unhappy with you lol. that comment sounds so 1950s hu...

Yes very. I'm used to men like cc talking down to women in a condescending fashion. It's very telling really.

yep

You can't respond to the arguments I set forth, Jane so you play the old "sexism" card. Tell me, are the numerous women who have similarly reproved you here "talking down to women in a condescending fashion"? You assert the right to behave very badly, to desecrate hhue's story, to give her the middle finger when she tells you to stop, and nobody has the right to say they are very unhappy with you?

You sure dont believe in my freedom of speech dumpling, you have proven that many times. Its ok though, I dont believe in yours either.

kay ur speech really has no substances that why...

Funny concept talking about someone playing "the sexism card" when that's the ONLY TUNE he has ever played

I believe in kaves freedom other speech I also believe in helping the mentally ill, the best place for kave to express his views is the asylum !

Kave however believes in blocking people who point out how stupid and insanse he is ( 99.9% of the worlds population including his own family )

thumbs up dente

7 More Responses

Jane, I am very unhappy with you. HHue is a sweet young wife and mother of whom I am quite fond. She does not go into threads in feminist groups to wrangle with you and your sisters. You have come in here and VANDALIZED her story. You have made it all about you and your grudge against the male gender instead of what she posted. <br />
<br />
I advocate that she delete your comments and block you, knowing that is your habit to invade submissive women's stories with your nasty mud-wrestling. You are a quintessential troll.<br />
<br />
Jane, you seem to think that you can make Male Dom / Female Sub relationships go away by harassing people and dumping your old tired propaganda on them. I am not aware that you have converted a single anti-feminist to feminist in all your months of wrangling. You aren't going to succeed. The Internet will ensure that D / S people will gain strength from each other and grow powerful enough to resist and prevail over feminist persecution that seeks to suppress them. I suggest you make your peace with this and spend more time cultivating your bonds with your husband and children rather than wasting time in these battles you simply will not win.

Thanks for the moral support and for reinforcing my argument.

Thanks CC, I hoped to provide an insight of where my motivations lie and Please Jane I mean no disrespect please leave this story in peace and I have seen you desecrate other posts and please leave my posts alone in future.

You didn't belong at this story in the first place, Jane. You came to pour cold water on hhue in the pleasure she had of posting this story, to denigrate D/ S marriages like hers, and to deliver a hateful insult of the male gender. You had nothing cogent to say; you simply expressed all over again the attitudes that all the submissive women on EP already know you have about these things. That is the epitome of trolling. MasterLee appears to have been at this story before you, in support of the author. It appears to me that he lashed out at you because he was angry like I was at your treatment of HHue and the other repulsive aspects of your initial post, and he appears to have a shorter fuse than me. This insult wouldn't have come your way if you would have simply had the kindness to let hhue post her story in peace, as she has just indicated above she wishes you had done. This is part of your monitoring the submissive women groups' new stories to see to it that they cannot post about their views and feelings without being met with blasts of your unreasoning propaganda. And I call it that because it is nothing that they haven't heard before and nothing they haven't provided what they feel are satisfactory answers to. There are plenty of feminist groups for you to post in rather than going on like a broken record on the stories of these sweet, kind-hearted women. Why must you always come and make sure they hear how gumshoejane feels about this? They already know how gumshoejane feels about this, and you haven't persuaded them. You aren't going to persuade them. All you can accomplish is bringing them vexation they do not deserve. And consider, you know that they are wonderful gals. It should bother you to realize that you are coming here with no possible outcome other than vexing them. Please consider this carefully, please take it to heart.

Thank you for posting this comment conceptularity. I too have seen jane do this to other stories in the submissive women forums.

They have every right to live as they so choose afterall that is the feminist way lol.
I never once condemned them for their choices. I simply cannot wrap my head around wanting to hand over your power to someone else. It's not for me. The article above seems to imply that this is how everyone should live, and I disagree.

article above seems to imply that this is how everyone should live gypsy &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
yea i was thinking the same thing jane.......

Concept still bullying women I see. How is that working out for you?

DA, I am coming to defense of hhue against Jane's bullying. You feminists demonizing anybody who stands up to you is really pretty stale. You don't concede that anybody has the right to argue with you and your followers without being called a sexist. I have seen that enough before. Do you think anybody is going to kneel and accept the not equal but superior prerogatives you are laying claim to?

Hello Jane, the article above does not state that this is how everyone should live, in fact they made it clear that an alternative set of vows would be in place for women, or couples who do not wish to have the word submit mentioned. My husband and I will be renewing our vows this year, and I am happy to say that I will be vowing to love, honor and obey him. Again, not for everyone, but if the whole world were like me, oh what a boring place it would be. ;) I did not see your previous comments, I think they were deleted. But as women, I think we should support each other for who we are, value our differences in life, and try to learn what we can from one another.

Why does it have to be a battle? Or anything to do with the Bible? There are all kinds of people in the world with different needs and aspirations. One rule does not fit all. Some men don't want to take sole authority in their marriage - therefore they wouldn't want a woman to submit to them. Other men are born for it. They want to be in charge and are happy to take on responsibility. Personal experience tells me that men who are born for it are mostly fair, reasonable, playful, with massive personal integrity but most of all, tireless. They don't try to boost their machismo by pretending they can't understand a woman's feelings. (They can be frustratingly inflexible at times, but that's a whole other story)
To reassure anyone (yet again) who may fear that it's even remotely like domestic violence, it is not. Sure, there are plenty of wife batterers who exercise no control over their hair trigger tempers, vent their frustration on their partner and children and very often regret it afterwards - until the next time. These contemptible wretches deserve everything the law and Andrea Dworkin can throw at them. Their existence and the threat they represent needs to be acknowledged, and it is at this point precisely where anti-feminists lose their moral ground. But some civilised couples really do thrive with one partner as leader, and no feeling of oppression of the other. The power exchange is sexually charged and thrilling, and it doesn't wear off.

"The power exchange is sexually charged and thrilling, and it doesn't wear off."
I hate to say this, but unfortunately sometimes it does wear off. I know a few submissive women whose dominant husbands ended up having affairs with very non-submissive (sometimes dominating women). When questioned about their motivation they indicated they became a bit bored with their "yes dear, whatever you say dear" wife, and got very turned on by the"hell no, I don't think so" mistress they ended up having an affair with. They also indicated that they felt stress and pressure from having to be the one who was responsible, and had to make the decisions in their marriage and they found it refreshing to be with a woman who was willing to take on those things and give them a break from having to be the one in charge.

I'm not particularly submissive - being a pushover wouldn't be much of a challenge. I never said you don't have to keep a chap on his toes! LOL

9 More Responses

Don't worry about gumshoe. she was dropped on her head as a child.

Harassing gumshoe? Hardly. Your tactics are well known. What a shame.

On a side note, to be guilty of 'harassment', one must actually 'harass'. There are many examples of your harassment of me and others. This one comment you did not like is not harassment. Might look it up.

No, she's a brave and strong woman, who is not afraid to stand up against bullies.

By being a bully. I understand.

yes f course you do dear...you would be one ..if you had the guts.......

Haha

jerk

Very eloquent

lee&gt;&gt;.Don't worry about gumshoe. she was dropped on her head as a child.

gypsy&gt; Dont worry about lee, he is upset because his dad spit him into a vagina, and now he wants to hate on women for it ...

Lee is complaining of bullying ? Lmao

Dente I know hu ? ME TOO &gt;&gt;LMAO : )

8 More Responses

Very nice

I would rather leap headfirst off the Empire state building into broken glass than "submit" or "obey" any man!<br />
Why on earth would any woman want to get married if she is to be oppressed in this way?<br />
Cc; What women would want to be married to a control freak who thinks he is entitled to be in authority simply because he has a set of UGLY gonads hanging from his body?????

"simply because he has a set of UGLY gonads hanging from his body?????" Screenshot is taken of blatant misandry. You are the one who made the vulgar choice to bring up genitals and to do so in a patently demeaning way that would have had you screaming "misogyny" if it had been done the other way around.
"I would rather leap headfirst off the Empire state building into broken glass than "submit" or "obey" any man!" Do you plan then on committing suicide if you end up with a male boss at work? "Why on earth would any woman want to get married if she is to be oppressed in this way?
Cc; What women would want to be married to a control freak who thinks he is entitled to be in authority" You are engaging in propaganda rather than reasoning here with your language of "oppressed" and "control freak." There are a lot of single women on EP who say they want to find a husband who will take them in hand or otherwise rule them. And In virtually every TIH marriage on EP, the wife was the one who suggested the lifestyle.

"You are engaging in propaganda rather than reasoning here with your language of "oppressed" and "control freak." I think she is just expressing her views which is what most people here do. "There are a lot of single women on EP who say they want to find a husband who will take them in hand or otherwise rule them." And that may be the case until it actually happens and then some of them find out its a nightmare and they made a huge mistake by thinking it would be a good thing. "And In virtually every TIH marriage on EP, the wife was the one who suggested the lifestyle." I suspect that is because the women who didn't suggest the lifestyle and were talked into accepting it may not want to write about it here on EP or anywhere else because they may be embarrassed about doing so. Its also likely that the women who hated it and are now divorced as a result, or the women who hate it, but are still married and feel trapped, are not going to be coming to this website or any other ones to share that information. Particularly since the women on here who feel they have a good TIH or DD marriage make it clear that they don't want to hear anything negative and only want to hear from people who think their lifestyle is acceptable and healthy, and support what they are doing. They will attack them tooth and nail if they write about their bad marriage and how they regret the lifestyle just like those women have attacked almost all of the people who have gone into their groups and suggested that dominating TIH or DD marriages are not always good and can be awful and abusive.

I find your defense of trolling quite unpersuasive. " the women on here who feel they have a good TIH or DD marriage make it clear that they don't want to hear anything negative and only want to hear from people who think their lifestyle is acceptable and healthy, and support what they are doing." In fact, they have shown tremendous forbearance, contrary to what you suggest. It is entirely in the spirit of EP for people of like view to set of communities for supporting each other, not for debating with unreasoning opponents who refuse to listen to their arguments and hurl feminist talking points rather engage in rational discussion. I am simply not persuaded by your effort to portray TIH marriages as consisting in large part of some vast dark underground. You have demonstrated your own profound tendentiousness in viewing such relationships when you take a case in which a wife has given prior consent to be spanked when she doesn't want to be spanked (which sounds to me like the situation with people we know like anonimacy and Roberta) and you state your great confidence that the husband is some kind of world class abuser. http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Do-Not-Agree-With-Domestic-Discipline/2124858. After what you said there, believe me I won't be taking seriously anything you have to say about TIH. Nor will the very bright NewChrissy, who commented there.

Thank you ladyblue. As always, you are clever, kind and fair.

Jane, you really don't understand our way of life. Our husbands are not control freaks and we are adults who have chosen this for ourselves, nobody has been pushed into this and everyone has the freedom to leave any relationship if they choose. We are not oppressed, we stay because IT WORKS! Many of us have have experienced positive changes, a happier marriage, less arguments, more love, more protection and more communication.

She doesn't understand because she doesn't want to understand.

thumbs up on lady/b

So cc, you would be ok with a husband who has chosen to submit to his wife? I doubt you'd be accepting of that notion, yet somehow its perfectly fine the other way around, hmmmm. ...

It has come to my notice that always the same two dudes take offence..and start ranting &amp; posting..it is the pair of them that ..in this and several over threads have "lit the blue touch paper and retired" this expression also goes by the name of ****-stirring...when you ladies are all at each others throats,(where there is no need to be as LADY B pointed out, everyone is entitled to an opinion) then those pair vanish into the sunset..to, I suspect to their dominant wives..because I have this feeling that despite their big mouths..their posts smack of more than a little bit of wishful thinking......the words...the gentleman doth protest too much spring to mind...it's my notion they are hen pecked..(also not pretty..granted) which is why they are totally incapable of seeing things from another side....

hey con man screen shots taken of your blatant lies, your bullying and your total lack of thoughtful or insightful information.

"So cc, you would be ok with a husband who has chosen to submit to his wife? " Jane, I have already told you that I don't agree with that, but--here is the critical distinction--I would not and do not get exercised over it. There are stories on this site by sub males and HOH females. Look at them. You will not find one instance there of trolling by me, of insults like the ones you posted here. In fact I have completely left those people alone, like you should leave the TIH couples and hhue alone. Hhue has said to you very plainly : "please leave this story in peace and I have seen you desecrate other posts and please leave my posts alone in future." You have chosen to blatantly disregard her stated wishes and have continued to post here and post here numerous times to boot and to make this story thread all about you. Similar behavior to yours on the part of a male would elicit accusations of "bullying and disrespecting women." And as for you, DA, there are a huge number of women on this site who disagree with your professed assessment of me, so much so that I have a big backlog of largely female adds to look over. Obviously I am not about to give more respect to your views than theirs.

"Jane, you really don't understand our way of life. Our husbands are not control freaks and we are adults who have chosen this for ourselves, nobody has been pushed into this and everyone has the freedom to leave any relationship if they choose. We are not oppressed, we stay because IT WORKS! Many of us have have experienced positive changes, a happier marriage, less arguments, more love, more protection and more communication." But Roberta I don't think you understand that not everyone in your lifestyle is like you and the other women on here that this kind of thing works out for. Please understand that just because your husband, and the women you know husbands, are not control freaks, and chose this without being pushed, and feel the freedom to leave your relationship if you choose, and you are not oppressed (although being told what you can and can't do, and being punished for not obeying is considered oppression by most), and stay because IT WORKS!, and have positive changes, happier marriages, less arguments, more love, more protection, and more communications . . . that is not the case for everyone. I know this for a fact because I have met many women who are not as lucky as you and your friends, and have experienced the things you seem to feel no woman in your way of life has. Please accept that something that works for you, may not work for everyone. No two people are alike, and just as there may be good DD and TIH marriages and husbands, there may also be VERY, VERY BAD ONES TOO.

Jane, I'm glad that you do not want to submit or obey any many, its part of who you are, what makes you Jane. For others like me, its not oppression, in fact its freedom. Freedom to be exactly who we are meant to be. My relationship with my husband has given me happiness, that I never knew existed. As far as the "ugly Gonads" comment, honestly that type of response is beneath you. You seem intelligent, I know this from interacting with you at other times, you shouldn't resort to comments such as this, because they are offensive. The only way to bridge the gaps, and promote understanding is through respect. What some women fail to understand, is that in relationships like ours, the underlying qualities in our marriage are honesty, trust, loyalty and respect. Not just what we feel for our husbands, but what our husbands feel for us as well. Ladyblue, I'm sure that some women who enter a more traditional type of relationship do end up with cads as husbands, who abuse the wonderful gift they have been given. But I think this may be the case with all relationships, not just the ones in which the wife wishes to obey. And yes, everyone should have the right to their own opinion, and the right to voice it, but it should be done with common courtesy and respect. If done with common courtesy and respect, it can be a wonderful learning experience for both parties, if done in an abusive way, its simply just abuse. Which I think is the same thing you may be accusing some men of being guilty of.

Yeah anytime jane expresses a view it's harassment anytime I express a view it's bullying ... In the meantime Concept runs around talking **** and telling lies while his buddy runs around threatening women...and that concept agrees with and defends ...

Yeah jane notice how he "leaves" men alone for their choices but has to be overly involved with every DD wife or their female critics

I find concepts admonishments of jane very hypocritical .

"Ladyblue, I'm sure that some women who enter a more traditional type of relationship do end up with cads as husbands, who abuse the wonderful gift they have been given. But I think this may be the case with all relationships, not just the ones in which the wife wishes to obey."
You are absolutely right, but unfortunately from what I have witnessed the men who are dominant, and whose wives are passive and submissive, can more easily be abusive, and their submissive wives seem to have a harder time resisting it.

yea one of them even mentioned women are washed up at 40 daaaaaaaaaaaa .. i suspect he feels that way about his wife and so therefore he thinks all women are...

15 More Responses

If women submit to their husbands and husbands obey the bible where it tells them to love their wives. Marriages should be very happy. At least that has been my experience of course I have only been married for 27 years. Perhaps someone with more experience could speak to this

Well the bible is not needed. Basic common sense will work.

some people like it writing

"Jesus not once mentions the subordination of woman and says much in contradiction to this." That's a total lie by Kevin Giles. Jesus said nothing along the lines of what he claims Jesus "said much." Jesus did repeatedly affirm the inspiration of the Old Testament, which includes Genesis 3:16. Christians of orthodox beliefs do not divide the Bible into the inspired portions in which Jesus speaks and the supposedly uninspired portions in which Paul and others speak. Giles may be a New Testament professor somewhere, but he is a heretic. He says "happy marriages today are fully equal." Marriages with feminist wives tend to be miserable according to what I've observed.<br />
<br />
I would say "society's propensity for domestic violence'' is a rather hysterical phrase. Typical of perverted misandristic feminist thinking.<br />
<br />
Do you know where Archbishop Aspinall stands on this?

I have not known one femminist marriage to work long term unless the male is a whipped boy with no ambition and devoid of consciouness. The femminists tend to want to steam roll over all men to make themselves feel superior.

CC;
Where in the bible does JESUS ever say wives are to "obey" or "submit" to husbands?????????????? I do not believe I recall reading anywhere in the bible the lord and savior saying such cruel and hateful things about women. If anything he RAISED when up to HUMAN status and inspired men to love and RESPECT women.

There was nothing in Christ's treatment of women that differed notably from that of the protagonists of the Old Testament, which I doubt you have spent 45 minutes reading. Your attribution of "non-human" status to women in Old Testament times is entirely uninformed. Jesus said the Old Testament was inspired, and that includes the OT passages about wives being subordinate to their husbands. And it is not "cruel and hateful things." Marriages work best when the Biblical roles are followed. The submissive women on EP are a far happier bunch than the feminists.

There are a multitude of things Jesus did not address in the pages of the gospels, because they were undisputed and there was no controversy for him to address as there was with divorce. He did not come to start with a blank slate wiping out the teaching of right and wrong contained in the Old Testament. He reproached being "slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken" (Luke 24:25). No sensible Christian theologian would say there must in addition be an explicit reiteration by Jesus of each point the OT taught for that point to be valid. Jesus does not mention rape in the Gospels. It was dealt with in the OT. The Christian teaching that bothers you does not stipulate that the wife is inferior or less valuable.

"I have not known one femminist marriage to work long term unless the male is a whipped boy with no ambition and devoid of consciouness." You obviously don't know my husband who I have been very happily married to for 12 years, and I can understand why. I don't think any strong, confident, ambitious, intelligent, successful, mature, handsome, very masculine, feminist man like my husband who appreciates, and respects women, and who is married to a feminist, would ever want to get to know someone like you.

Thanks for making a big deal over a typo--you do them too. I prefer to form close friendships with culturally conservative people. That doesn't mean plenty of information about other kinds doesn't come my way.

Gumshoejane, it was not women only who were subject to stoning for adultery. The man in the same act was subject to stoning. Were you told otherwise? The penalties for acts of fornication varied but were always the same for both participants.

Ladyblue,
I would rate this response by you up 1000 times if I could. Thank you for putting into words what I have felt for quite some time. I wish I had your courage.

What exactly is a feminist marriage? I do not think I have ever heard that term before?

A feminist marriage in my opinion means that the Woman gets her own way all the time and will manipulate the man to think that it is his fault if anything goes wrong. Also they use that "we" are "equal" partners in marriage and we get an "equal" say in the decision and will huff and puff if the man in the marriage dares to step out of line until the decision only benefits the woman. That's my view on feminist marriage. Oh and when some one dares to question them they use the "sexism" card to try and get their way or trying to shift the blame onto some one else.

.........hhue&gt;&gt;&gt;where do you get such thinking from ? ur mother ? a sister? a friend?

lee&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I have not known one femminist marriage to work long term .

gypsy&gt;&gt;&gt; i can name a well known feminist who never married and one that married very late in life, just to have her husand to pass on from cancer....

A feminist marriage is a marriage where a man marries a feminist woman, or a feminist man marries a feminist woman.
"A feminist marriage in my opinion means that the Woman gets her own way all the time and will manipulate the man to think that it is his fault if anything goes wrong."
This is not true. It is a marriage where the man and woman discuss things with each other respectfully, and then mutually decide what to do. Sometimes what they decide is of greater benefit to the wife, and other times it is of greater benefit to the husband. It just depends on the circumstances. I have actually witnessed marriages where submissive women manipulate their husband to get what they want by letting him know that he is the boss and as a result he should be thankful and reward them for agreeing to be submissive, and letting him be the dominant one. I have actually seen them blame the husband if anything goes wrong since he is the HOH one in charge and makes the decisions. So if what he decides doesn't work out they can claim its all his fault. They relieve themselves of feeling they are to blame for anything that doesn't work out by putting the responsibility on the husband.
"Also they use that "we" are "equal" partners in marriage and we get an "equal" say in the decision and will huff and puff if the man in the marriage dares to step out of line until the decision only benefits the woman."
This also is not true and sounds like a projection of what actually occurs in TiH, DD marriages. In the feminist marriages I know of the husband and wife will both explain their position to each other and why they feel things should go the way they feel they should, and then after considering which position makes the most sense they will mutually decide what to do. Its called compromise which is something that husbands who are dominant HOHs rarely ever do. Dominant HOH husbands are the ones who will often huff and puff if the submissive wife dares to step out of line, while pointing out that he is the boss, and he is the one who gets to make the decisions and not the wife.
"That's my view on feminist marriage."
Its best not to have a negative view about a certain type of marriage unless you actually know people who have that kind of marriage, and are certain that simply because the people you know act a certain way that means everyone with the same kind of marriage acts the same way. I have know people with very bad TiH, DD, submissive wife, dominant husband marriages, but I don't, and never would, assume that the majority of other people with those kinds of marriages also have very bad marriages with the same troubles and issues that they do.

thanks once again, ladyblue : )

Excellent response Ladyblue!

"The submissive women on EP are a far happier bunch than the feminists."
How do you know? You don't really know any feminist women on here (or possibly anywhere else), or what their marriages are like so you really shouldn't make comments you don't know are true just to make yourself appear more credible.

13 More Responses