Selfish, Short-sighted, Etc

Fundamentalists of all types are making this world difficult to live in.  If people would stop trying to make the world what they want it to be, instead of what it is, we would all be happier.  Fundamentalists are ignorant in one major way.  They all think they are right and that their version of religion, politics, etc is the only correct one.  This is ignorance at its purest.  My favorite saying is "A wise man knows when he does not know"...meaning that a smart person knows when to say that they are not sure.  And when you're talking about what happens to us when we die (religion), that is the ultimate unknown.  My religion is just this, that no one knows what happens when we die so just live and don't worry about it.  All those who claim to know are liars and should be treated as such.
ReformedAutomaton ReformedAutomaton
41-45, M
30 Responses Jun 15, 2007

I would just like to say that it is quite impossible to prove or disprove the global superpower controlling mechanism or group. It's like trying to prove whether or not there is a god. When you say that there is an all-controlling power that is more powerful than any nation, economy, military, corporation, etc, then you are making an unprovable assumption. If this power is there and controls us by manipulating information/media, global markets, military, politics, etc, then we fundamentally cannot prove it cause they're hiding it from us. The only thing that I can say is that in my studies of culture, I understand the absolute loyalty that people all over the world have to their tribe, nation, clan, whatever it may be. People love and defend their home and are quite rabid and insane about having their own autonomy. I find it to be quite unbelievable that the top people in every nation bow down to some godly superpower and hand over the reigns. People are too self-centered and power hungry to ever do anything like that. And this world is quite simply far too complex and diverse to ever have any human beings smart enough to control the entire world. IMHO, it's not the truth.

Kasey, I agree totally. I've never voted in an election of any kind, not so much b/c I didn't know about the candidates, but b/c it wouldn't matter. I've been reading recently about politics in Israel in the 80's. They had a likud party and a labor party, and then a few other fringe parties who were very outspoken. But the likud and labor party worked together to maintain control and keep the others out. Very much like our republican and democrat parties today are the same damn thing, working together to keep hold on power. Voting in America today is a joke and has been for many years. The people in power represent corporations and business interest. Whether they are a democrat or republican doesn't matter. They represent interests, not people.

I just don't see how showing that our political and maritime system comes from the Phoenicians proves that there is a worldwide power in control of all governments, economies. I have yet to hear anything that would show me this is true. What or where is the evidence?

I've always wished that IF there are parties, that we wouldn't be aware of which each of the candidates belonged to, therefore EVERYONE would be more likely to do research on those running for office and be a more responsible voter. I disagree with those who say you MUST vote, because soldiers have died fighting for your right to vote. I respect that but if I don't feel I would be a responsible american voter if I haven't researched every candidate completely to make a clear decision, not based on bias for a party. My own boyfriend admits to voting for a presidential candidate once, for the sheer fact that he didn't want the other party to win...he didn't know anything about this candidate....and they won. He wishes he had been mature enough at the time to have not voted. I think it is far more respectful to not vote if you aren't voting for reasons other than to knock off a party.

Thanks Barbara, I disagree on a few points. Firstly I think the idea that the world would be in shambles were it not for these controlling powers in place is a false one. One perhaps devised to keep us "happy" and policed, eg controlled. Our government wants us to think that we need all of this control and that we as humans are fundamentally flawed. I am an anarchist in that I think that people would function just fine without this overarching power structure. Capitalism insures that the rich stay rich and their method of staying there is to control the populations so they have a labor force from which to produce their profits. I understand that capitalism has roots that run deep. I am certainly intrigued by your ideas about the Phoencians and how our current modes of economy, governing, and the religious influence in government mirror the ways of ancient Egypt. So much of what America and all of the western world are is contrived from Greece, Egypt, the Middle East, and Asia. There's a book by Jared Diamond called Guns, Germs, and Steel that talks about how the western world has acquired it's power and identity mostly though it's convenient geographical placement in the world. Europe is in the perfect and unique place to receive more influence/ideas than anywhere else in the world. Basically, white westerners have dominated for centuries b/c they were in the right place at the right time. <br />
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And I have a difference with this quote, "However, no matter how many ills and calamities and upheavals and needs and wants, etc. any nation may have at any given time, it will still move along acording to the way all other nations are moving.....meaning that there is an overriding guidance/control mechanism in place which is ABOVE the humdrum routine escapades the common people have their attention focused on."<br />
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My main issue with people that wish to say the world is controlled by a ruling elite is a lack of solid evidence. I've heard over and over about the freemasonic cult, chemtrails, HAARP, etc. I've been told over and over that we are being controlled by a world power. I have yet to see any evidence produced. I wish to see data, information, evidence, other than just saying that because all of these control mechanisms are in place, there must be a controlling power at the top. The one thing that I notice throughout the corporate world is that they are extremely disorganized. They are only organized well enough to profit. All other concerns are out the window. I don't see anyone in this world being smart enough, organized enough, or crafty enough to control all the worlds nations and their economies. Capitalistic ways are just too ******* stupid. It's all about profit and exploitation on an INDIVIDUAL level. I don't think Monsanto cares if Dell is making money. I don't think any multinational corporation cares about any other company or person other than that they are functioning and keeping the economy afloat. Karl Marx predicted such things 150 years ago. The movement of capitalism from industrialized, to monopolistic, and then to multinational levels of functioning. I just think there is not enough organization in the world to have a controlling power. <br />
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All nations are moving along in the same direction because there is a dominant economic mode in the world. No other mode can function as long as capitalism reigns. A nation can't have a proper socialist economy in place when they have to live under the global rule of capitalism. The populations of countries get that sparkle in their eye, they want a TV, they want the comforts of western life, and they are willing to part with their families, friends, and old ways of life to get this. Capitalism creates flight and destroys localized economies and cultures. People that have provided for themselves for hundreds of years find that in this age of multinational corporations, they are subject to the laws of capital. You are so correct that even the third world has not escaped control. Industrial agriculture, control of water, mining, and many other ways of life have overtaken and destroyed much of what remained unique in the third world. <br />
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My #1 point is that capitalism is short-sighted and only about profit. It is all about self interest and their self interest is satisfied since multinational corporations now control our government. I just don't see these corporate giants who already have control yet are so disorganized, being controlled at the top by some larger force. I don't think Monsanto, Halliburton, or Microsoft are controlled by any larger force. They use the forces at hand to maintain their grip and they have plenty of control in their hands already. I just think that many people wish to believe that all of the madness in our world has a meaning, a cause, a larger "conspiracy". I think they are afraid to admit that we are controlled already by the economic forces at hand, we are already enslaved and controlled, by multinational corporations. I just don't think that these corporations are all "together" in this. They are much too selfish and proud to have it any other way. I think they are separated though fundamentally they are a very small number of people controlling billions of others worldwide and destroying our culture, environment, lifeways, etc, in pursuit of their short term profits. God I wish for collapse. I think it will happen. Capital is just too damn shortsighted and disorganized for it not to fail eventually. Thanks Barbara :) P.S. - Of course my strong language reflects strong beliefs, but they are not solid, I am always open to shifting my beliefs and am constantly having my eyes opened to new ideas. I'm just not yet convinced of the global conspiracy. I need more solid data to believe it.

Wow I don't even know where to begin. I agree with so much of what you said. I believe in the psychological control mechanisms you speak of, there are certainly many in place and many more in the works. I believe that the people in "power" in America are not representative of the people even remotely and that our lives and choices are limited though most believe them not to be. You must understand that I am a skeptic forever, a political, social, cultural, religious, and economic agnostic. I hear so many well informed and well backed arguments that are contradictory. What am I to believe? I do believe that there are very large and frightening forces at work that are far beyond the comprehension of most people today. I'm just still trying to put together enough pieces for myself to begin to have a solid belief. My most common difference with new world order folks is that they believe there are specific people that control the world while I maintain that it is a system that controls the people. Like a science experiment that goes wildly out of control. I don't have enough time tonight to talk this through. I am DEFINITELY not disagreeing with what you said. I don't debate the details, just the fundamental causes and conditions which have brought about the political and economic climate we live in today (which is soooo freaking weird I must say, this world is daily more strange than I ever imagined it would be). I still believe that it is a system in control of people, not the other way around.

I knew I was in trouble Barbara when I left my last few comments on this story, and now seeing the length of your response, I can see I'm in for it LOL. I was surprised to have not received a comment from you already. I'm looking forward to reading this comment but I'm gonna go smoke a cig first :)

I see collapse being the alternative. As long as the system works then it will self-perpetuate.

But what alternative?

My question is who are these "above" people? It seems to me that the most powerful nations in the world are run by fundamentalists. The only "above" that I see is the capitalist system itself which has driven itself into every corner of the globe and has now developed strongly in China. Who regulates the capitalist system? The western world has dominated for centuries but if capitalism continues to run it's course, eastern culture will be taking control and will become the dominant world culture as the US is today. Economics dictate who is the dominant world culture and the west has developed capitalism and industrialization giving it hundreds of years of control. Once China moves from the industrialized to the service economy as the US has done, they will dominate and control the world economy like no other country ever has since they are 1.5 billion strong. So I think that believing that some western ideological power will take control and smite the fundamentalists is not an economically viable theory. The capitalist fundamentalists are the ones that are the most dominant in the world today because they are in every nation. It is the hegemonic world ideology but has no political, ethnic, social, or cultural affiliations. It is the ideology of greed and exploitation which creates nations of people who take individualism and alienation to it's extreme.

Barbara, I have duelled with you in the past, but here I enjoyed reading your points. <br />
This is an interesting convo

Isn't it ironic how the word "fun" is part of "fundie" when they're no fun at all?<br />
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Remember, fundamentalism is about fear. It's a nasty contagious fear. They spread it around. There's a reason for that, the fundamemntalists live in fear. It's all they know, so they share it. They are born into fear, relate to fear, are guided by fear, and given the chance they rule by fear. Really, when we show fear of them they win.

Barbara, I agree that fundamentalists and atheists alike are short-sighted though I don't know of any major atheist movements that are backed by weapons and are warlike. I don't agree that wiping out these fundamentalists will help anything. The fundamentalists in America are trying unsuccessfully to eliminate the muslim fundamentalists which will never work. The only way that we will ever see peace on earth is for people to stop making war. That is so much easier said than done, but ultimately one must give up their own fundamentalist position (yours being that fundamentalists should be eliminated) to see any real progress. Everyone is just too wrapped up in their own ideas.

Thanks JusDifferent, I couldn't agree more that it's wrong to put ideas above people. Unfortunately here in the US, so many things are put in front of people. Business interests, politics, war, sports, TV, video games, ipods, cell phones, etc. all have become more important than being with our fellow humans on a daily basis. <br />
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Love4U, I think it would be important to know why fundamentalists become that way. I think it's mostly from growing up with fundamentalist parents, teachers, friends, etc.

i think that the fundamentalists are the most dangerous persons for mankind.they destroyed millions of lifes by their one action but we should try to know the reasons why people become fundamentalists.

Nicely said, Robbo and NI! I distrust fanatics - PERIOD. Full stop. Any time ideas become more important than people - we are in trouble folks. I always loved John Lennon's song "Imagine". Peace guys.

Yes I think the true foundations of both religions are of peace and love.

It is very strange how similar many of the religions are to each other. The Muslim religion shows a particular likeness to Christianity. Many of the Characters in the Quran are the same people as in the bible, take for instance, Abraham and his sons Ishmael and Isaac. Its just our take on the events that happened that are different.

Its strange how many of the religions are so similar to each other. The Muslim religion is very similar to Christianity. Many of the characters in the Quran are the same people as in the Bible. Take for example Abraham and his sons Isaac and Ishmael. It is just our belief about the events that happened that is different. <br />
True Muslims are Peaceful people who know that their God would be against killing. It is sad that there are people (from all beliefs) who take what is written out of context and that they then go to such lengths to exercise what they think is right.

robbo I couldn't agree is the only way to live a truly religious life. <br />
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Sunnykris, I think your heart is in the right place.

and what most fundies do not see is that the cores of all the major religeons are the same. <br />
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1. a Supreme Being of some sort is in charge, is the Creator, and cares about us humans.<br />
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2. a respect for self and others is strongly recommended<br />
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3. angels show up in all major faith systems.<br />
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4. All the majors i have studied believe something along the lines of "Do justly, love mercy, walk closely with your God."<br />
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5. the Supreme Being is saddened when we go against His/Her will, but will forgive us if only we ask.<br />
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6. prayer is used to address said SB.<br />
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i know that there are more... so if these are the cores? why do we fight???

I fail to see how killing loads of people and your self can sway people towards your way of thinking. Anyone who is prepared to do that in the name of their supposed God proves that they are part of a corrupt religion. God is all about love, NOT endangering lives and causing pain.

That would truly be a great and sane world to live in Malloy if everyone could just vote as they believed instead of following party guidelines. A nation of free-thinkers. What a wild concept!

To Malloy; 2 parties is a bit tight to call it "democracy", it is the bare minimum, BUT; if there are to many parties, nothing comes out of that except ... nothing. In my country, 100 days after the election, they are still trying to form a goverment, with "only" four parties, it is the minimum ( no 2/3 majority but that's OK) but they are 2 on 2 opposed on some (they say) inportant points. <br />
The country is Belgium.

Hey Selfexplanatory,<br />
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I agree that the 2-party system sucks. More so when both parties seem to be wrong to a great number of people. Imagine if there were three major parties, or four! Or how about if there were NO major parties and everyone voted according to how he or she really believed?<br />
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Thanks DenTom, well said

Maybe fundamentalists are afraid to consider that there IS another way (or whatever they are fundamental about). Maybe their brain can't grasp the fact that they could be WRONG! NO NO not possible! They are to uncertain about themselve to consider another point of view (or they are just plain stupid!)<br />
I'm fundamentally anti-fundamentalist! (euh...sort of, I guess....maybe...)<br />
All very funny, but they are dangerous people, and anybody who even slightly cares about our species should oppose such creatures!

opionions are like ******** ,everyone has one lol.

I think a big part of our political problem is the power of the 2 party system. It creates polarized ways of way or the if there are only 2 possible solutions to any problem (the republican or democrat way)

i find anyone who believes so highly in their own beliefs that they are not capable of considering any other way to be total and complete incompetent, idiots! there's not just one solution. to think there is but one solution to any problem is to box oneself in and to cause more distress, grief, problems, etc. it's thoroughly ridiculous!