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Lets See Proof

I love how a lot of religious people claim to see or talk to god or Jesus on a daily basis. If that really is the case, take a picture, record his voice, show us proof. Until I see some sound proof, I refuse to follow the brainwashed and controlled to church

viperman viperman 31-35, M 11 Responses Apr 2, 2010

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We all know that something can't come from nothing. If it could, why doesn't everything or anything? Why aren't dinosaurs, for instance, popping out of thin air, devouring everyone in sight? Why aren't we afraid of elephants suddenly popping into existence in the air, falling from the sky and crushing us while we walk down the street? If nothing can in fact produce something why would it discriminate? In the end, such an argument is a case of special pleading.

Since something can't come from nothing, then the natural questions that follow are, “Where did the universe come from 13.7 billion years ago?” and “What caused it to come into existence in the first place?”


(1) Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
(2) The universe began to exist 13.7 billion years ago.
(3) Therefore, the universe has a cause.

(4) The cause of the universe is a beginningless, spaceless, immaterial, timeless, unchanging, omnipotent and personal being.
(5) A beginningless, spaceless, immaterial, timeless, unchanging, omnipotent and personal being is the definition of God.
(6) Therefore, God caused the universe to exist 13.7 billion years ago.

Whatever this cause is, it must possess certain necessary properties in order for it to be the cause of the physical space-time universe. For instance, first and foremost, this cause must itself be uncaused. Why? Because an infinite regress of causes is impossible. (Lookup “Hilbert's Grand Hotel” if you're interested in a more in-depth analysis.)

Second, this uncaused cause must transcend space-time because it itself created space-time. It is therefore, spaceless.

Third, since this uncaused cause exists beyond space and time it is must be a non-physical or immaterial cause. Why? Because physical things exist only in space – they have dimensions.

Fourth, this uncaused cause must necessarily also be timeless for the simple fact that it itself doesn't exist in space-time.

Fifth, it must also be changeless. As I'm sure you're well aware, all matter exists in a state of constant flux. This is especially apparent at the atomic level. Since this uncaused cause is immaterial it is not subject to the same forces that affect matter, therefore, it is unchanging.

Sixth, this uncaused cause is obviously unimaginably powerful, if not omnipotent, for it brought matter, energy, space and time into existence completely on its own.

So, to sum up, whatever it is that caused the universe to come into existence 13.7 billion years ago it must be beginningless, spaceless, immaterial, timeless, unchanging and omnipotent.

But we're not done for there is one more property of this uncaused cause that we can deduce from what we know of the universe. For this we have to take a closer look at cause and effect. Here's what I mean: if a cause is sufficient to produce it's effect then the effect must also be present. The two are joined at the hip, so to speak. You can't have one without the other.

Let me borrow from an illustration to make this clearer. “Suppose that the cause of water’s freezing is the temperature’s being below 0°C. If the temperature were below 0°C from eternity past, then any water that was around would be frozen from eternity. It would be impossible for the water to just begin to freeze a finite time ago. Once the cause is given, the effect must be given as well.” (

The issue is, if we have in fact a timeless, transcendent cause why isn't the effect permanent as well? In other words, if this timeless, transcendent cause actually caused the universe, why hasn't the universe always been around? How can a cause be eternal but its effect commence a finite time ago? We know the universe is about 13.7 billion years old but we've also deduced that whatever caused the universe must be transcendent and timeless.

The only way this is possible is if this timeless, transcendent, uncaused cause were also a free agent – a being with free will who can act of its own volition. As we all know, free will is the hallmark of personhood.

So here we arrive at this uncaused cause of the universe 13.7 billion years ago that is beginningless, spaceless, immaterial, timeless, unchanging, omnipotent … and personal.

This is the very definition - of God :)

Do you believe in evolution then? Or like a lot of religious people do you believe in creationism?

If you are to accept the teaching of macroevolution as true, you must believe that agnostic or atheistic scientists will not let their personal beliefs influence their interpretations of scientific findings. You must believe that mutations and natural selection produced all complex life-forms, despite a century of research that shows that mutations have not transformed even one properly defined species into something entirely new. You must believe that all creatures gradually evolved from a common ancestor, despite a fossil record that strongly indicates that the major kinds of plants and animals appeared abruptly and did not evolve into other kinds, even over aeons of time. Does that type of belief sound as though it is based on facts or on myths?

I love that HIS followers have to put a beware of the god sign out for heathens like us.<br />
I, like you, have felt his presence in church as they try to pick my pockets, tell me who to vote for, attempt to tell me about our 6000 year old universe filled with talking snakes and donkeys not to mention jewish carpenters who take flight like a sparrow after rising from the dead (but remember he's not a zombie).

Have never attended a church service. Only times I've ever been in a church are when my wife pushed her religion on my sons, and weddings

LOL where do you live?<br />
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Have you ever been a comedian?

Your a funny guy mate.<br />
<br />
Have you ever been to church?<br />
Do you just stand in church, not listening?<br />
Have you ever felt his presence?<br />

No, still have a nose

You don't have a mullet but you may be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Does it look like I have a mullet?

Anyone you were related to?

No, why?

Hey, were you ever romantically attracted to your cousin?