Post

I Think I'm Losing My Religion

I think I'm losing my religion... Yaaaay... Lol

Don't get me wrong, I still believe in the existence of a Creater or God. I think there is still so much that is unexplainable that it is difficult for anyone to prove that human beings were or were not created. Besides, I like the notion of there being a God. Call it a crutch, call it whatever you like, all I know is that I am more at peace, not angry with anyone and I believe I am a better person this way. BUT, I am still learning. I can only act on what I know, and at the present time, I am inclined to believe in the presence of a supreme being.

I have come a long way in areas of religion and faith for one so young. Raised methodist, stopped going to church around 13. Told my mother there was no point as I was not getting anything out of it. To this day I am surprised she did not force me even though she forced my brothers even at the age of 20. I then "returned" to God at the age of 19. Became VERY religious. Even to the extent of moving house just to be able to serve the church more effectively. I was really zealous in my youth. Until I finally realised that not all was right. 3 years later I decided to leave the church behind. I spent the first year studying the bible pretty intensively. To be honest this actually strengthened my faith in God, but I wasn't going to church. I tried a couple of times. Asked the pastor of my local church to have a meeting with me. I explained my concerns in areas where I believed the church was in error and acting not according to scripture. I thought he would come and visit me as he had promised, I actually live one road away from him, literally less than a 5 minute walk. I emailed him several lengthly documents explaining my stance, to which he responded in short.

"I cannot answer your questions by email".
- Good so you're gonna come and visit? I'll get the tea and biscuits out...
"And I'm a bit busy at the moment. You know, with Christmas fast approaching..."
- Okay so you're come and visit me after the New Year right?
"You might not agree with what we believe in. If you don't I suggest you look for another church that you can serve in humbly..."
- Huh? But I have biblical evidence... Are you not interested in truth? The truth shall set you free will it not? If I am lost do you not love me enough to see me on the right path. All I need is someone to talk to. Help me make sense of this. Please!!!

It was then that I realised that truth was not the essence of their message. Neither was love part of their message. It was then that I came to the realisation that they did not practise what they preached. It was then that I finally understood that what they did had nothing to do with saving the souls of man, but it had everything to do with enlarging their global empire. I stood in opposition of their message and their practices. So they ignored me and told me ever so poiltely to "F" off... I got the hint loud and clear, so I F'd off quietly. I did consider fighting but I was more depressed than angered. So F off I did, never to be seen or heard from again.

I spent the next year or so trying to "figure God out" by myself. What I came up with is something of an amalgamation. looking closely at the similarities between the worlds main religions. Noticing that most if not all of these religions simply represented a different brand of God. A different marketing strategy but the same product. Businesses, tools of manipulation, organisations based on profit and ultimately control. Sure at the bottom they may all seem to be driven by some zeal or quest for knowledge, salvation, liberation or enlightenment, while at the very core of their existence representing a pyramid in which a few controled the masses. If you look at the formation or the birth of a religion, you will notice that there are political, social and even economic elements that come into play. Spiritualism hardly comes into it at this stage. However it is used to give a boost to the legitimacy of each religion that claims to have a connection to the ethereal being that is "God". I'm not saying that there is absolutely no spiritual element in these religions. What I am however saying is that what little spirituality exists is used for the benefit of powerful men and women who wish to use the peoples need for a spiritual connection for their own gain. This is were religion comes into the frame.

When those that are in power strive to achieve oneness they create a structure which has rules to govern all.

Please note: I am using this as an example to bring to question the Christians beliefs and doctrines. This is not to say that I believe this to be true. I am simply arguing the point to show that much of what the Christian world practises today is in direct contradiction to Jesus' teachings as well as biblical teaching.

Did you know that the Christian church did not have priests and clergymen in it's early days? No. It was as a result of perceived "heresies" that the leaders of the church in that time decreed that inorder for a gathering of believers to be regarded as a church, a recognised leader appointed by the leaders must be present at such meetigs. If memory serves me correctly I believe it was the church in Antioch around 80 AD under St Ignatius that placed this into effect. Nevermind that Jesus had done away with such systems when died on the cross. Do some research, the information is easy to find. The Bishop then became a spokes person for God at this point. Nothing was done without his approval. If anything was done this way, it could be dismissed as not being "God's will", thus falling also into the category of heresy. God no longer spoke through anyone, but He now spoke THROUGH a RECOGNISED official. Sound familiar? Starts with a P ends with an E? P.O.P.E. Yet the bible never instructs that God would not speak directly to people but through one man, in fact it teaches quite the opposite. But of course knowledge  has increased, Martin Luther King the German monk took note of these errors and documented them in his 95 theses quite clearly.

This is just one example of the way in which the "church" has erred and departed from it's original mandate. What started off as a movement of spiritual awakening led by a certain man named Jesus became a means of control and gain. Remember that sscripture that says, "Even the elect shall be deceived..."? Think upon that clearly. Are you in the know or are you in fact deceived? What was Jesus' message really? Was it, start a church in my name? Was it, I want you all to call yourselves Christians and to go around telling people that they're not good enough and never will be? I can distinctly recall the bible saying that he said something along these lines. "Love thy neighbour as you love yourself... By this they shall know that you are my disciples, that you love one another..."
He seemed to emphasise a whole lot on love. He does not say he who calls himself a Christian is your brother. Therefore it stands to reason that he who loves me is my brother. This after all is the greatest commandment. So where does religion come into it? If we all just learned to love one another regardless of skin colour, religion, nationality, gender or whatever the world would be a much much better place. 

This is just looking at it from a Christian perspective. I intend to study other religions as well and see what is at their core. The reason for this being that there are laws of universal truth. You may find similar laws in Hinduism, Bhuddism, Islam and Christianity (forgive me for not mentioning all the worlds religions). We as human beings can learn a great deal about ourselves, emotionally, mentally, physically, socially and even spiritually. One should not be so arrogant as to dismiss the knowledge that another has simply because he/she believes himself to be superior. Seek to understand that persons religious beliefs, you might actually learn something.

I am beginning to see that we are all one. I do believe in God. And I believe that throughout the generations, God has revealed certain truths to people, in order for them to manifest aspects of the spiritual nature of man kind. Bringing us closer to our maker in consciousness throughout the ages. I do not believe that this is THE TRUTH. I simply believe. As some choose to believe in Gods non-existence, not being able to prove that God doesn't exist, I choose to believe not being able to prove that God does exist. God does not have to have a gender. nor does God require definition. God in my understanding simply IS. That is just my opinion.

I would not define myself as a Christian at the moment. Though this will scare those closest to me, do not worry, I feel at peace with my maker at the present time. Do not forget, I am on a journey as we all are. Perhaps you will arrive to the conclusion that I have some day, perhaps I willl change my views one day. Who knows? All that is certain is that knowledge will increase, and with it mankind will evolve both intellectually and spiritually. I may not believe in ten years time what I believe in now.

I have a lot more to share but this will do for now.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. it was actually meant to be just a sentence. No kidding. What can I say, i get carried away sometimes.

Thanks again,

Scorp.

Scorpio1987 Scorpio1987 22-25, M 12 Responses Apr 3, 2012

Your Response

Cancel

You should come join me and my new religion , we have cake , and ice cream and various other things.

Thank you. I've watched that video before actually. It's very compelling. I used to be at that place. Believing in Jesus but denying religion. The trouble comes when you believe in the Bible because you have to believe in everything else apart from Jesus. I love Jesus' teachings. There is a lot to learn from them. The problem comes when you begin to look at the whole Bible. For example; Do you believe that God will punish people for eternity if they don't believe in Jesus? There are good people out there you know. Some better than most Christians. Is it fair for God to condemn good people to hell for eternity simply because they did not understand the Gospel? What about Tibetan monks who are burning themselves alive for the rights and freedom of their people? Do they DESERVE to go to hell just because they did not understand the message of the bible? Eternity in hell? Burning? Torture? What kind of God does that? Who tortures people for failing to understand something that is not logical and punishes good people for using the very same logic that he gave them as a tool. Is that what a loving father does?

Sorry. I didn't mean to sound as if I was attacking you there. There was no aggression in that whatsoever. That's just what I think. :-)

Haha that's okay.
"The trouble comes when you believe in the Bible because you have to believe in everything else apart from Jesus."
- what part of the bible makes you believe that?
"Do you believe that God will punish people for eternity if they don't believe in Jesus? There are good people out there you know. Some better than most Christians. Is it fair for God to condemn good people to hell for eternity simply because they did not understand the Gospel?What about Tibetan monks who are burning themselves alive for the rights and freedom of their people? Do they DESERVE to go to hell just because they did not understand the message of the bible? Eternity in hell? Burning? Torture? What kind of God does that? Who tortures people for failing to understand something that is not logical and punishes good people for using the very same logic that he gave them as a tool. Is that what a loving father does?"
- True. But...I think with the bible, the proof and tales of Jesus's existence and what he lived/stood for, not accepting Jesus as God's son and our savior is like throwing away everything he has done for you (or throwing it back in his face). Which is why that punishment (if it is written in the bible) is due. No one was perfect apart from Jesus that is God's standard of good and worthy. A standard that no one can reach. With all the good a person can do it can never erase the evil/bad God knows they have done and that only the 'blood of Jesus' can enable a person to be forgiven (I think of accepting Jesus/making the decision to follow him is like proclaiming, 'hey, I know i'm not perfect, but I tried'. And for God if you did with an honest heart, that is enough). You and I don't know what these good people have done in the past, we only see who they are now/the side they show us. Also It's society that generalized what is wrong, and what is more wrong in order not God.
I don't think it's a lack of understanding, but the fact that there's no acceptance of Jesus.
How is the bible illogical? Are you talking about free will?

(Btw, you believe in the existence of God, but you disagree with the christian idea of God because you do not believe the God of the christian Bible is fair, correct me if i'm wrong).

Are you telling me that you don't believe in the bible in it's entirety? Don't Christians believe that the bible is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH and that it is inerrant? Jesus says, "I am the way the truth and the life. No man can come to the father except through me." What he is saying here is pretty obvious. There is one way to God, if you don't come through me then you cannot know God. If you do not know god then you cannot enter into the kingdom of god. "Then he shall look at those to his left and say, "Depart from me you who practice lawlessness, I never KNEW YOU..." Jesus is clearly saying here that those that do not know him will not find a place in his fathers kingdom. Tell me, if they are not entering into his father's kingdom where are they going? Well according to the bible they are going to everlasting torment. Matthew 10:28
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Who might that be? God? It certainly isn't the devil because the bible would not tell people to fear the devil. Furthermore the devil has no power over our souls. So says the bible. Does me not accepting Jesus as my saviour make me a worse person than you? What you're saying is the only reason you get to go to heaven is because Jesus paid for you but he didnt pay for me so that warrants me burning in hell for all ETERNITY? Like seriously? Even if I've tried to be kind throughout my entire life, gave to the poor, fed the hungry (which Jesus says is good by the way), I should still suffer eternity in hell? I know I'm not perfect, so I strive to be better. I don't need Jesus or the bible to tell me that. I was talking to a friend of mine just last week, and she was telling me how bad she felt because she told an unnecessary lie to a friend. She doesn't even believe in god. You don't need to have faith to have morals, you just need to be a good hearted person and to know what is right and what is wrong. But somehow, because you have Jesus that makes you better than me in the eyes of god right? And me despised by god enough to send me to burn in hell for eternity. ETERNITY! That's really cruel punishment don't you think? I wouldn't wish that to befall even my worst enemy whom I hate, yet god can somehow send his own "beloved" child to burn in hell forever and ever. And you can't tell me that sinners don't go to hell according to biblical teaching. God must punish sinners right? Because if sinners go without punishment then we might as well all do what we want. It's all pretty childish don't you think? That inorder for you to behave, to be a good person, you must have this threat of hell above your head and without it you would be out of control. It's kinda similar to the way in which you would threaten a misbehaving child. "Don't do that or I'll smack you..." But you expect the child to grow up and to learn what is right and what is wrong, no longer needing the threat of being disciplined just to do what is right. Not with the bible. Biblical teaching keeps the person in spiritual infancy. The motivation for your "goodness" being, "I'm gonna get to go to heaven...". It's similar to the way in which a child does good things hoping that his/her parents reward him with a treat. The god of the bible does come across as being vindictive and cruel. Dishing out extremely over the top punishments for "sins" that do not equal the punishment. That is why I don't buy into the Christian god, the god of the bible. When I wrote this story I did believe in god. To be honest I'm not even sure if I believe in the idea of God anymore. I believe there is something more out there, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Religion is certainly not the answer in my opinion. But I'm not knocking anyone who practices his/her religion with the right spirit and right heart. The idea of reincarnation seems feasable but even that theory has holes in it. I certainly don't have all the answers. I remain waiting patiently, with an open mind and an open heart. If I do happen to come across any new information, some new experience that changes my mind on this subject I will not hesitate to realign my sights and refocus. Humility is always the key when it comes to learning. Without it you can never learn.

When I said 'if it's written in the bible' I meant, I haven't seen the quote, but if it's there it is true. I didn't suggest that sinner don't actually go to hell, I believe they do. No one is better in the eyes of God, it's said he loves all his children. He does not hate the sinner, but rather the sin. I believe Jesus paid for everyone, and your role is to accept and acknowledge that he did. I don't think he only paid for the chosen few lol. Also did you read the part where God expresses his great loss and sadness when a person turns from Christ. It doesn't make him happy at all to see people do wrong. He does not want to do it to his children, but he has to (atleast to the one who refused to accept)......
The threat of hell and belief in the existence of God is a choice made by an individuals faith. It gives humanity what God has always enabled us to have, free will. You choose not to believe in God, Jesus and what he did. That was your choice to make so if hell's the punishment that comes with it, then you chose to take it. It's not childish, the bible is pretty clear on what God thinks of evil and wrong doing.....
"But you expect the child to grow up and to learn what is right and what is wrong, no longer needing the threat of being disciplined just to do what is right.".....Exactly, I think you believe the only reason I worship is because i'm scared of going to hell (punishment). Well you're wrong. I do because I believe after all that has been given, it is what is right. I think a person who worships out of fear, is in the end just being selfish, and not worshiping with an honest heart. However the fear of the Lord, once his power is acknowledged can only provide wisdom.

Not choosing Christ does not equate to choosing evil. Do you agree? I just simply don't understand the whole deal. Are you saying then that because I choose not to believe what I do not understand I am evil? Because really what you are saying is evil people go to hell right? Do you have any idea how insensitive that sounds. Once again you make the unbeliever out to be some devil worshipping son of Satan who god just has to punsih because he is so righteous. You say god hates the sin but loves the sinner, and that he cries when he had to send his child to hell. Well why does he do it in the first place? To teach me a lesson? Well there's no chance for me to repent once I'm in hell right? So what? Will god cry for me while I burn eternally? Have you read my stories C? Would you say that Im an evil person? Of course I have my failings but I am not an evil person. I can tell you that I have been involved with charities and still am. Not because I have to but because there are people out there who need help. If I died tomorrow without Jesus, would you say that I deserved to go to hell? Can you honestly look me in my virtual eye and tell me that hell is where I deserve to be because I can't understand the message of Jesus. What is your answer to that? Should I go to hell? Do YOU think I belong in hell if I die without accepting Jesus. Please answer this question. YES or NO. I'm not asking you whether you think I will go to hell. I am asking you if YOU think I deserve to burn in hell for my sins which I do acknowledge.

I never said you were evil, i'm not even saying evil people alone go to hell. I'm saying those who have not had their sins atoned for will probably end up in hell. God's idea of right and wrong is strict. As strict as it was 2000 years ago, our society is what has decided that certain things aren't actually that bad, and ineviatably we're all stuck with that modern mind set. I think what you don't understand is that it's not god's fault that bad exists within humanity it's ours, we chose this. And unfortunately it's the generations and generations after that first mistake that we're all paying for. Disobeying started with the devil, and we followed lead. You should be angry at him for the trails we now have to go through not at God for setting such a high (but now obtainable only with Jesus) standard.......Think about it, if we were 100% sure of God's existence, presence and the details of heaven and hell then would we really have the free will to chose not to or to worship him? With that in mind, the choice to follow him is made while you are here on earth, (that leaves you with about 80 years a guess to come to a conclusion).....I can't place judgement on where you or I are going if we died tomorrow. But I do think that God is merciful enough to take some of us even though really we ALL deserve to go to hell. You seem stuck on the fact that you are a good person, I know i'm not. Do you think as long as you don't steal your still a good person, as long as you give to charity your still a good person, as long as you aren't cheating, or swearing, or saying the bad things that run through your head that you're still a good person. You're not, none of us are. You might be moral but God's standards are ridiculously high and what we are isn't good enough........You seem to know that God exists you just don't like the christian God because you don't understand his reasoning. You've lost your faith in him. All I can suggest is that you keep trying to understand, we can't know it all.

So basically God has set standards that no man can reach so that he can punish us. Great. Again this is what I'm saying about your god. He does things just so that he can punish us. Why would you ask your child to do something you know he cannot achieve and then punish him for failing to do what you knew very well he was incapable of doing? Is that logical to you? Seriously. Is it? This is why people dislike christianity. God sets high standards, tells you to jump this high knowing you'lll fail, and then punishes you for failing to do what he KNEW you couldn't do. Is that a loving thing to do? It's like asking your 3 year old daughter to do the laundry and then beating her because she failed. It's ridiculous. Don't you see the simple reasoning here or do you just dismiss all logic? Goodness is relative. What may be good to you may be bad to me and vice versa. You seem to be stuck on the fact that because I do not measure up to gods unattainable standards I am therefore worthy of hell fire. Again I must ask you. Are you happy knowing that people will burn in hell for eternity for failing to measure up to Gods super high standards that no man can attain? Even a murderer deserves mercy. At least kill him and have done with him. Why torture somebody for all eternity. Do you feel that is justifiable? Torturing someone for that long? I don't think I'm an evil person. But I understand that your faith hinges upon this idea that you are deceitful and "desperately wicked" so i do not expect you to understand. I do however expect you to understand logic and reason. Perhaps that is too much to ask from a Christian. I have been where you are, I used to say what you're saying to me now, and I can tell you now, when you remove those blinkers you have on, you will begin to see the ridiculousness of some of the things you believe in. I bet you tithe, and yet you don't even know where tithing comes from and how "god" asked people to tithe. Numbers, Deutronomy... But of course you'd never be taught that. You just might start to ask questions. God forbid you start to use your brain. This is why I usually dont engage in these debates with christians. You dismiss logic and reason, hence there is nothing intellectual about this debate. For the record, I am not mad at you. Frustrated yes, but not mad. I hope you get that.

Haha you're like my brother, every little thing needs to be written out point to point in order to be at all credible, (not to mention the initial bias p.o.v). You keep getting the wrong idea from me, and I keep telling you that those standards are high, but with jesus they are obtainable/they perfection dosen't need to be achieved, you just have to have tried i guess (that's it in the simplest form as I understand it anyway)........ Christianity isn't easy, it's definitely the hard way to live. Actually I don't tithe (how much money do I win :)? Instead I reach into my purse and give how ever much I can grab without looking (sometimes it's in the 10's, sometimes it's in the pennies (like a lottery) lol. It's my way of not caring about money. Yeah murders do deserve mercy. Do you have a problem with forgiveness and repentance?.......
How i see it. Hmmm, I am actually a very logical and psychological person, we just don't see eye to eye. Which is fine. Lets agree to disagree......Btw I think your image/idea of me is quite jaded. I'm no where near the typical looking/behaved christian, I don't blindly follow my faith, I ask questions about everything and try to evaluate things for myself.......I'm not angry or even frustrated at you either, just neutral. Ah well, you find your own way.

I think agreeing to disagree is the best thing to do. It just annoys me that you think you are justified and everyone else that doesn't follow your path is going to hell because they don't agree. You can't get away from the fact that that's what you're preaching. Repent and believe in Jesus or suffer the consequences. That's not a nice thing to tell people. But your Bible would tell you that I would react this way right. I'm growing to hate that book more and more the more I see the damage of inflicts upon people. It just isn't right.

I'm not sure if you live in a bubble, but the the world isn't exactly a nice place either. I don't know for sure if i'm going to heaven, only God can judge. I don't think i'm special like you think I do. The bible isn't all about punishment, it's more about living a positive and moral lifestyle. But to correct you, in this case right and wrong is quite subjective.

"The world isn't a nice place either" - Is that your justification for being callous with the emotions of others? I have seen it too many times Christians behave in this manner. You think you're helping by trying to brow beat people into submission, yet all you do is condemn those that do not follow your path. The bible does say that those that do not accept Christ as the saviour are of the anti Christ. There is no statement that condemns the "unsaved" as much as this one. That is equivalent of calling someone a child of the devil. Though you say that you cannot judge me you know very well what the bible says about people like me. People like me go to hell. Isn't that right? All you have to do is study your own theology to acknowledge this fact. Why you want to pretend as if you don't know this is beyond me. You think I'm going to hell. Just admit it. You think you are in a better position than I am because you have Jesus. God overlooks your flaws because he sees the blood of the lamb covering your sins. Isn't that right? But there is no blood covering my sins so therefore I am condemned. I don't know why you just won't admit that you think I am blinded and you are enlightened. Therefore you do think you are special in gods eyes because you have Jesus. I am just a sinner in his eyes am I not? Please don't pretend as if you don't know what I'm talking about. I was a very devout Christian for 4-5 good years. I literally moved homes just to serve the church. I am not someone who has never had an understanding of the bible. I have a Matthew Henry commentary, a strings concordance, vines dictionary etc etc. I was once in awe of the bible just as you are. I don't even know why I'm telling you this. I think I am wasting my breath here because when I was like you I was convinced I knew of all and I was only here to preach and teach, not receive from a sinner. You believe you have nothing to receive from me so you will not receive from me. BTW, you don't need faith to have morals. I know some very good people who have never picked up a bible. So do not try to convince me that I need Jesus to tell me how to be good. You probably can't even comprehend what I'm talking about because you know no other way to live. Just dont make you experience everyone else's experience. Being free from religion has actually caused me to be more loving and less judgemental of people. Though you think you are not, you are being very judgemental when you assume that everyone that does not agree with your way of thinking is going to hell regardless of how much they try to do the right thing. Once again, please don't tell me you don't know if I'm going to heaven or hell. The bible clearly states that people like me don't go to heaven. No man can come to the father except through me remember? Jesus said that apparently. Don't pretend as if that scripture doesn't matter. It is clear in black and white. I DESERVE to go to hell in my current state. Don't try to deny that as you try to proselytize me. Just tell THE TRUTH about what the bible teaches. You know the scriptures. Don't water them down in an attempt to win me over. Give it to me like it is. God would be pleased with you for that. "The gospel is an offence." Isn't that right?

And you know you think you're special because you have Jesus. Don't pretend as if you don't believe that. Having Jesus protects you, you can ask Jesus for help, Jesus SAVES you. Isn't that the priviliedge of being a Christian? How is that not considered special treatment? Just admit it man. I can't believe you would actually refuse to acknowledge this. Having Jesus makes you feel special,better than the rest. Admit it.

Dude, stop what's wrong with you? This argument is going nowhere. I'm not going to give you what you want so badly to hear. And no, I'm not so shallow and judgmental as you think I am to look at a person and decide whether or not they are going to hell (it's not my place). Your opinion of me is so wrong it's getting ridiculous, the only way you'd know is if I were speaking to you in person. I am not the person you were, we are two different people. My relationship with God is different from what yours was. You have no idea what he has done for me. Don't speak as if you know me so well. Actually I have lived another way, but that's also personal why should I have to go into that. You sure do make a lot of assumptions. But anyway's leave this, it's going nowhere, direct your anger elsewhere.

I actually think you're a nice person. Thats why you wont admit to what I'm asking you. You dont feel comfortable saying it. Deep down you know if you were to admit what the bible says you WOULD come across as being judgemental. I am not assuming anything about you. I am asking you to acknowledge what you believe. But for some reason you she reluctant to acknowledge the scriptures. I don't know you, but I do know the bible that you claim to live by, so indirectly I do know you. If I came to you and said I was a liberal democrat you could confidently say that you know where I stand and give a good account of what I believe based on that title alone. That is a similar thing here. When you say you are a Christian I can safely assume that you believed in Jesus and the bible. I would even go as far as to say that you believe in the whole Bible. So if you believed in the whole bible I could question you on why you believe certain things in the bible. Unless you explain to me that there are things in the bible you disagree with, I SHOULD assume that you believed in the WHOLE Bible because that's what Christians do and you are a Christian. I don't like arguing, but I don't like losing a debate either. If you feel uneasy defending your faith I shall not ask you any further questions or interrogate you. BTW, I could either be your best friend or your worst enemy. When i was a christian I always learnt the most from people who challenged my faith. It greatly strengthened my understanding of God and everything around me then. You might not want anything from me but if you want the truth. If you want some information,based on scripture, all evidence documented, if you are confident in your faith, ask me for this BIBLICAL information and I will email it to you. That's IF you have confidence in your faith. BTW. It may seem that i am angry at you because I express myself with passion even in my writing, so that often comes across as anger. But I am not angry, just passionate. There's a fine line between the two I guess.

Okay, I'm not feeling uneasy about this discussion. I just feel like we oppose each other so much on the idea of God that we can no longer understand/see each others point of view. That's the thing, I already think I have the truth, so I don't need those passages. I'm really tired ttyl.

Cool. Sleep well. No offence?

14 More Responses

You raise an important concern one which I will take a moment now to address. You ask, "What makes you sure that you are right and everyone else is wrong?" For that matter, what made Paul and Silas so sure they were right and everyone else was wrong when they were teaching the Beroeans? <br />
<br />
Before we get to the heart of this, however, we first need to address an underlying question. There are hundreds of thousands of religions in the world. If God set these up for us to learn to worship Him properly, learn to love one another, and have useful, peaceful lives, we can only arrive at one of two conclusions: Either he failed miserably or he didn't set them up in the first place and something else is behind them. What have you concluded? :)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
P.S. I worship with Jehovah's Witnesses, yes :)

Haha... That's amazing. I was able to spot you just from your phrasing. I have had a lot of debates with members of your fellowship, also developed friendships with one or two of them. A story for another time perhaps. Okay this conversation has gone further than I intended it to already. that is not why I wrote this story. If you read my article clearly again, I think I allude to the FACT that religions were indeed made by the hands of man. Whether you want to argue the point that these men were instructed by God etc, that is up to you. To be perfectly honest, I think you can admit that you do not and you CANNOT know whether or not these men and women were inspired by God etc. What we DO KNOW FOR SURE is that THEY WERE MEN that carried these things out. That IS a fact. One chooses what he/she chooses to believe based on evidence, cultural background, experiences etc. Remember the biblical account of the tower of Babel? If people are able to speak one language, they can do just about anything, including creating a religion. I'm sure you will agree that not all religions are created by God. How can they be if they cause division? Wouldn't God be further confusing mankind by giving us so many options? I believe God made things simple, but man complicated things as they have done all throughout history. This is the conclusion that I have come to. That God created us as one and intended us to be so, without religion to debate over. That is what I have concluded. So what is your point? Please try to make your point in a concise manner so as to keep the length of this conversation short. As I have stated. This has gone off on a tangent, something which I did not want when I posted this.

Well spoken! :)<br />
<br />
It might surprise you to know that my faith ** is ** ba<x>sed on evidence. I would even go so far to say that it is at the very heart of my beliefs. Perhaps the following will better illustrate my point.<br />
<br />
The sun, for example, appears to revolve around the earth— rising in the east, moving through the sky, and setting in the west. However, evidence from astronomy and mathematics reveals that the earth is not the center of the solar system. Once you become familiar with that evidence and accept it as true, you have faith that the earth revolves around the sun— despite what your eyes tell you. Your faith is not blind. On the contrary, it gives you the ability to see things as they really are, not merely as they seem to be. <br />
<br />
As such, true faith is ba<x>sed on reason and evidence, not on mysteries and confusion. It is not blind credulity. It is "the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.” — Hebrews 11:1. <br />
<br />
Jesus himself recognized this fact. He instructed, “You must love Jehovah your God [] with your whole mind.’” (Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27) He understood that if his followers were to 'love Jehovah with their ** whole ** mind' they would need to be given strong evidence for what they were being taught. (Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27) And that he did! Jesus didn't expect anyone to believe him out of credulity. He was not looking to recruit the gullible. <br />
<br />
Later on, 1st century Christians were admonished to understand, to “thoroughly [] grasp mentally [] what is the breadth and length and height and depth and to know [] that [they] may be filled with all the fullness that God gives.” (Ephesians 3:18,19) The residents of the ancient city of Beroea, for instance, were praised and set as an example for all of us because, when Paul and Silas went to teach them truth, these 'carefully examined the sc<x>riptures daily as to whether these things were so.' (Acts 17:11) <br />
<br />
Did Paul criticize them because they tried to find proof for what they were being taught? Did he tell them that their investigation was unnecessary because absolute truth was unattainable? Did he order them to believe for the sake of believing? Not at all! In fact, he ** encouraged ** them to make sense of what he was teaching them. He wasn't afraid of their scrutiny. Why? Because he understood that "God is not a God of confusion". He too, like his teacher, Jesus, recognized that they also had to 'love Jehovah with their ** whole ** mind'. (1 Corinthians 14:33;Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27)<br />
<br />
In fact, with soooo many people running around sharing their opinions on what truth is, now more than ever, it is imperative that we “not believe every inspired ex<x>pression, but test the inspired ex<x>pressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.” (1 John 4:1) :)

Hmm, that is an interesting perspective. I believe in some of what you have said. It is difficult for me to believe that all that is, is mere coincidence, a random act of creation. I am more inclined to believe in intelligent design. All that is physical is evident, science has allowed us to have knowledge of so many things. But what of the unseen? Jesus himself stated, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe..." Jesus was not referring to some tangible evidence here. He was referring to the unseen, that which requires faith. We cannot all of a sudden now redefine what faith means. Jesus also commended child like faith. Tell me. Does a child have the mental faculties to come to the conclusion that the universe is as a result of some benevolent creater. If we use the logic that in order to come to a knowledge of God, we must have knowledge first, I fear we put too much emphasis on our own ability to "make sense" of and to "understand" the being that is God. Belief, faith, trust, confidence are all subject to the individuals perspective. If you say that knowledge is key I fear that you contradict biblical teaching. The thief on the cross came to faith in Jesus not because he had done extensive studies into who Jesus was. No, he simply BELIEVED for whatever reason. We may both have the same information, but arrive to different conclusions. What you believe is subject to a number of factors, seperate experiences which human beings do not share. What makes you sure that you are right and everyone else is wrong? What makes you believe in Jesus while others dont? What makes you believe in the words of a man whom you never met or even spoke to? It's faith is it not? By the way, may I ask are you or where you a Jehovahs witness at any point?

Thank you, my friend, for that clarification. I will do my best to stay on point and, instead of posting lengthy responses, I'll include links where I can :)<br />
<br />
Now, you speak of the errors of religion and how it is a stumbling block to uniting mankind. I'd like to ask, is it really honest to blame these problems strictly on religion? After all, weren't Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, Kim-Il-Sung, Fidel Castro and Vladimir Lenin weren't sadistic mass murdering atheists? :)

Thank you maxximilian. I think we are getting ahead of ourselves just a tad here. I did not for one second imply that religion is the cause for war or acts of war etc. I simply stated that religion provides yet ANOTHER stumbling block to the unity of mankind. Like race, nationality, social class and other factors do, religion creates barriers in terms of unity. I don't think anyone can deny that. There really isn't any argument there as far as I'm concerned. Institutions create divisions, plain and simple. I appreciate you perhaps trying to reach out to me, I see the heart behind your actions. But I have had that experience, it has helped me in many ways. Frankly I do not think I would be where I am today if it weren't for my faith. But I believe that as we grow spiritually, and just in life in general, through our experiences etc, we are able to discern better what is best for ourselves. Not one of us can claim to know the truth, if belief was based on fact it would cease to be belief wouldn't it? You have no reason to believe you have thumbs because you can see them, that requires no faith. But faith dictates that you believe in something without any evidence whatsoever. That is the essence of faith. So how can you or anyone else claim to have proof that what he/she believes is indeed the truth or a fact. We cannot. If God exists, it is the being that is God that leads man to repentance, not our human efforts. Granted a certain part of this revelation of God lies within our power, that is our mental faculties and our ability to feel connected to something more than ourselves, but eventually, we must come to the realisation that any revelation that we get as to what exists beyond us is simply beyond us and not in our control. So with that said, I see no point to argue that perhaps one religion is superior to the other, or God does or doesn't exist. Our experiences will eventually lead us to some truth. Whether that truth be relative or not, it is some form of truth. Therein lies the phenomenon of God and religion. What's real to you is not necessarily what is real to me. Selah.

You're so very welcome my friend! :)<br />
<br />
Here's the first in-depth article. I'll post more as we go along:<br />
<br />
<br />
"How Did the Trinity Doctrine Develop?"<br />
<br />
<br />
FOR many years, there was much opposition on Biblical grounds to the idea that Jesus was God. To try to solve the dispute, Roman emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea. About 300, a fraction of the total, actually attended.<br />
<br />
Constantine was not a Christian. Supposedly, he converted later in life, but he was not baptized until he lay dying. Regarding him, Henry Chadwick says in The Early Church: "Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun; . . . his conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace . . . It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear, but he was sure that victory in battle lay in the gift of the God of the Christians."<br />
<br />
What role did this unbaptized emperor play at the Council of Nicaea? The Encyclopædia Britannica relates: "Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, 'of one substance with the Father' . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination."<br />
<br />
'Fourth century Trinitarianism was a deviation from early Christian teaching.' —The Encyclopedia Americana<br />
<br />
Hence, Constantine's role was crucial. After two months of furious religious debate, this pagan politician intervened and decided in favor of those who said that Jesus was God. But why? Certainly not because of any Biblical conviction. "Constantine had basically no understanding whatsoever of the questions that were being asked in Greek theology," says A Short History of Christian Doctrine. What he did understand was that religious division was a threat to his empire, and he wanted to solidify his domain.<br />
<br />
None of the bishops at Nicaea promoted a Trinity, however. They decided only the nature of Jesus but not the role of the holy spirit. If a Trinity had been a clear Bible truth, should they not have proposed it at that time?<br />
<br />
Further Development<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
AFTER Nicaea, debates on the subject continued for decades. Those who believed that Jesus was not equal to God even came back into favor for a time. But later Emperor Theodosius decided against them. He established the creed of the Council of Nicaea as the standard for his realm and convened the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E. to clarify the formula.<br />
<br />
That council agreed to place the holy spirit on the same level as God and Christ. For the first time, Christendom's Trinity began to come into focus.<br />
<br />
Yet, even after the Council of Constantinople, the Trinity did not become a widely accepted creed. Many opposed it and thus brought on themselves violent persecution. It was only in later centuries that the Trinity was formulated into set creeds. The Encyclopedia Americana notes: "The full development of Trinitarianism took place in the West, in the Scholasticism of the Middle Ages, when an explanation was undertaken in terms of philosophy and psychology."<br />
<br />
The Athanasian Creed<br />
<br />
<br />
THE Trinity was defined more fully in the Athanasian Creed. Athanasius was a clergyman who supported Constantine at Nicaea. The creed that bears his name declares: "We worship one God in Trinity . . . The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; and yet they are not three gods, but one God."<br />
<br />
Well-informed scholars agree, however, that Athanasius did not compose this creed. The New Encyclopædia Britannica comments: "The creed was unknown to the Eastern Church until the 12th century. Since the 17th century, scholars have generally agreed that the Athanasian Creed was not written by Athanasius (died 373) but was probably composed in southern France during the 5th century. . . . The creed's influence seems to have been primarily in southern France and Spain in the 6th and 7th centuries. It was used in the liturgy of the church in Germany in the 9th century and somewhat later in Rome."<br />
<br />
So it took centuries from the time of Christ for the Trinity to become widely accepted in Christendom. And in all of this, what guided the decisions? Was it the Word of God, or was it clerical and political considerations? In Origin and Evolution of Religion, E. W. Hopkins answers: "The final orthodox definition of the trinity was largely a matter of church politics."<br />
<br />
Apostasy Foretold<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
THIS disreputable history of the Trinity fits in with what Jesus and his apostles foretold would follow their time. They said that there would be an apostasy, a deviation, a falling away from true worship until Christ's return, when true worship would be restored before God's day of destruction of this system of things.<br />
<br />
Regarding that "day," the apostle Paul said: "It will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed." (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 7) Later, he foretold: "When I have gone fierce wolves will invade you and will have no mercy on the flock. Even from your own ranks there will be men coming forward with a travesty of the truth on their lips to induce the disciples to follow them." (Acts 20:29, 30, JB) Other disciples of Jesus also wrote of this apostasy with its 'lawless' clergy class.—See, for example, 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 4:1-3; Jude 3, 4.<br />
<br />
Paul also wrote: "The time is sure to come when, far from being content with sound teaching, people will be avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes; and then, instead of listening to the truth, they will turn to myths."—2 Timothy 4:3, 4, JB.<br />
<br />
Jesus himself explained what was behind this falling away from true worship. He said that he had sowed good seeds but that the enemy, Satan, would oversow the field with weeds. So along with the first blades of wheat, the weeds appeared also. Thus, a deviation from pure Christianity was to be expected until the harvest, when Christ would set matters right. (Matthew 13:24-43) The Encyclopedia Americana comments: "Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching." Where, then, did this deviation originate?—1 Timothy 1:6.<br />
<br />
What Influenced It<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
THROUGHOUT the ancient world, as far back as Babylonia, the worship of pagan gods grouped in threes, or triads, was common. That influence was also prevalent in Egypt, Greece, and Rome in the centuries before, during, and after Christ. And after the death of the apostles, such pagan beliefs began to invade Christianity.<br />
<br />
Historian Will Durant observed: "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity." And in the book Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz notes: "The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology."<br />
<br />
<br />
Thus, in Alexandria, Egypt, churchmen of the late third and early fourth centuries, such as Athanasius, reflected this influence as they formulated ideas that led to the Trinity. Their own influence spread, so that Morenz considers "Alexandrian theology as the intermediary between the Egyptian religious heritage and Christianity."<br />
<br />
In the preface to Edward Gibbon's History of Christianity, we read: "If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief."<br />
<br />
<br />
A Dictionary of Religious Knowledge notes that many say that the Trinity "is a corruption borrowed from the heathen religions, and ingrafted on the Christian faith." And The Paganism in Our Christianity declares: "The origin of the [Trinity] is entirely pagan."<br />
<br />
That is why, in the Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics, James Hastings wrote: "In Indian religion, e.g., we meet with the trinitarian group of Brahma, Siva, and Visnu; and in Egyptian religion with the trinitarian group of Osiris, Isis, and Horus . . . Nor is it only in historical religions that we find God viewed as a Trinity. One recalls in particular the Neo-Platonic view of the Supreme or Ultimate Reality," which is "triadically represented." What does the Greek philosopher Plato have to do with the Trinity?<br />
<br />
Platonism<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
PLATO, it is thought, lived from 428 to 347 before Christ. While he did not teach the Trinity in its present form, his philosophies paved the way for it. Later, philosophical movements that included triadic beliefs sprang up, and these were influenced by Plato's ideas of God and nature.<br />
<br />
<br />
The French Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel (New Universal Dictionary) says of Plato's influence: "The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher's conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions."<br />
<br />
The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge shows the influence of this Greek philosophy: "The doctrines of the Logos and the Trinity received their shape from Greek Fathers, who . . . were much influenced, directly or indirectly, by the Platonic philosophy . . . That errors and corruptions crept into the Church from this source can not be denied."<br />
<br />
The Church of the First Three Centuries says: "The doctrine of the Trinity was of gradual and comparatively late formation; . . . it had its origin in a source entirely foreign from that of the Jewish and Christian sc<x>riptures; . . . it grew up, and was ingrafted on Christianity, through the hands of the Platonizing Fathers."<br />
<br />
By the end of the third century C.E., "Christianity" and the new Platonic philosophies became inseparably united. As Adolf Harnack states in Outlines of the History of Dogma, church doctrine became "firmly rooted in the soil of Hellenism [pagan Greek thought]. Thereby it became a mystery to the great majority of Christians."<br />
<br />
The church claimed that its new doctrines were ba<x>sed on the Bible. But Harnack says: "In reality it legitimized in its midst the Hellenic speculation, the superstitious views and customs of pagan mystery-worship."<br />
<br />
In the book A Statement of Reasons, Andrews Norton says of the Trinity: "We can trace the history of this doctrine, and discover its source, not in the Christian revelation, but in the Platonic philosophy . . . The Trinity is not a doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, but a fiction of the school of the later Platonists."<br />
<br />
Thus, in the fourth century C.E., the apostasy foretold by Jesus and the apostles came into full bloom. Development of the Trinity was just one evidence of this. The apostate churches also began embracing other pagan ideas, such as hellfire, immortality of the soul, and idolatry. Spiritually speaking, Christendom had entered its foretold dark ages, dominated by a growing "man of lawlessness" clergy class.—2 Thessalonians 2:3, 7.<br />
<br />
WHY, for thousands of years, did none of God's prophets teach his people about the Trinity? At the latest, would Jesus not use his ability as the Great Teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers? Would God inspire hundreds of pages of sc<x>ripture and yet not use any of this instruction to teach the Trinity if it were the "central doctrine" of faith?<br />
<br />
Are Christians to believe that centuries after Christ and after having inspired the writing of the Bible, God would back the formulation of a doctrine that was unknown to his servants for thousands of years, one that is an "inscrutable mystery" "beyond the grasp of human reason," one that admittedly had a pagan background and was "largely a matter of church politics"?<br />
<br />
The testimony of history is clear: The Trinity teaching is a deviation from the truth, an apostatizing from it. - http://bit.ly/rbKdoM

Hey Max, do you mind if I call you Max? Good. Lol. Just playin with ya'. Thank you for the lengthly piece, i appreciate your efforts. When I said I would like to hear what you had to say i thought you were going to post a short comment with an EP Link instead of an entire story on a whole different subject. This kind of deflects the topic of conversation onto another subject, i.e. Trinitarianism and other church doctrines. My intent was not only to discuss how the church errs in its ways but to point out the manipulation behind most, if not all religious institutions. I wrote this piece really in a bid to do away with the whole, I'm a Christian I'm on this side, you're a Bhuddist you're on that side business. This is really where I was headed with all this. You can leave this comment here as there is some very useful information which I am grateful to you for sharing, but in future I would rather you posted an EP link or something so that we can maintain our focus on the topic at hand. In this case, all religion and the error of its ways, the stumbling block it places in front of mankind, and the oneness of humanity. That is what I believe in. I am sorry for any misunderstanding. Thanks again :-)

I congratulate you on your realization that a vast chasm exists between what the Bible teaches and what is taught in churches today! You remind me of the Beroeans of old who, while being taught spiritual truths by Paul and Silas, they 'carefully examined the sc<x>riptures daily as to whether these things were so.' (Acts 17:11) I encourage you to continue studying the Bible. The answers you seek are there. As Jesus said, "Your word is the truth." (John 17:17)<br />
<br />
If I may, I'd like to share an article with you here that discusses the history of several fundamental church doctrines. These Bible ba<x>sed articles further illustrate how vast and deep the chasm is between what the Bible teaches and church doctrine. Would that be ok? :)

Thank you maxximillian. I'm always looking for information so yes please do share. Thank you for your input. :-)

Good one for putting your thoughts down so eloquently. <br />
Yes, it is time for the Dogma to be put to bed and true brother hood of mankind to come to the forefront. <br />
<br />
Why is it so hard, just to love one another?<br />
<br />
To brother/sister hood for us all to live in peace and harmony.

Why is it so hard to love? A question I fear we will never find the answer to. Thank you for your comment Diamond. :)

Yes, I think respectful is key. In the past I have seen that stories about beliefs tend to become childish mud-slinging matches. I hope sharing has helped you, of course, and wish you and others all the best.

Thank you again brother. I hope that this does not turn out that way. Have a good day.

Thanks for that story. I can identify with it very strongly. I would even go so far as to say that a lot of "the organisers" in "organised religion" have a lot to answer for by what seems to me to be deliberate misrepresentations for the purpose of power or political gain. I hope you find the Truth you seek, sincerely I do. Personally I don't discuss my beliefs on EP. There are some things too personal to me to put out there for othersz and its one of them. I sincerely wish you, and those who comment, all the best in their search.

I understand. I was a bit wary of sharing my beliefs on here too.. But my opinions and beliefs on the subject of faith have changed drastically recently. I felt as though I needed to write down my thoughts, to sort of give structure to my beliefs. Writing this has helped me a great deal. I personally don't mind people's opinions, criticisms etc. I have faced that on numerous occasions. I only hope that the people that do comment do so respectfully. I hope that you are at peace with whatever path you choose to follow. Take care. Scorp

first of all, thanks for putting so much effort into not only conveying your ideas on the subject so thoroughly but also on doing your own research! I have similar conclusions as you regarding church and church officials and whatnot. Where I differ is in being satisfied with believing in something because it provides some comfort rather than simply because it is reality (aka the truth). Not that that is the wrong approach to have, positive thinking and all, it is actually beneficial in ways. But it is not the approach for me.

Reality for you may not be reality for me. The phenomenon of God lies therein. How God can be so real to one and not real to another. It is not just comforting but it actually makes sense to some. A world without God would not make sense to those people just as a world with God does not make sense to you. The one thing we should be able to agree upon is that not one of us knows "the truth" as we define for ourselves what is truth. it's all relative. Thank you very much for your comment. So if I am being a bit abrupt. It's almost 3am here and my brains slowing down. Must...get...information...out.

reality for me ISN'T reality for you...this is true. But when you say people believe in god in order to 'make sense' (of reality) it puts up a big red flag in MY mind, because it says "this is JUST a useful construct"...meaning there is some motive behind believing it (simplifying a reality hard to comprehend or deal with)...which to me de-authenticizes it. I think when people 'believe in god' they actually 'believe in the god construct of dealing with reality'. Because if we want to be honest with ourselves, it is NOT possible to know that which we do not, therefore faith does not knowledge make, and you see religious people all the time trying to authenticate their beliefs through science (which is odd considering most of the time they are against science), history, and overly-simplified logical arguments...this is because you NEED faith to 'believe in god' or 'believe in the god construct for dealing with reality'. I, too, am sorry if i am a bit abrupt...especially on your own story, no disrespect is intended, just voicing my own opinions.

No offence taken. Okay here's my point. Science and religion do not mix, I agree. Science can explain certain things that faith cannot and faith can explain some things that science cannot. Both science and faith ATTEMPT to explain the world around us, and both have succeeded and also failed in giving us "answers" to some of the worlds problems. You cannot ignore the part that faith has played in achieving positive outcomes. People like Gandhi and Dr Martin Luther King have both applied their faith to their general world view, coming up with a set of principles that helped millions to "cope" with the oppression and strife they faced throughout their lives. Faith still continues to do this. So in my view, that would make it a successful means of helping people come to terms with the reality they perceive. It's all about perception. One persons perspective over another's. I do not see the point in taking away something that is positive in order to replace it with nothing just to suit one group. In other words, scientists should not argue that God does not exist, because ultimately, God does not depend on scientific based outcomes to exist if the being that is God does exist. Science and faith are two different subjects. One cannot be used to describe the other. It's like me trying to explain the english language using mathematics, or me trying to explain mathematics using english. At some point I will have to use mathematics to explain mathematics, and english to explain english. Both of these subjects do not function on the same principle, they function independently. Science does not require faith, and faith does not require science. Faith has NOTHING to do with knowing, if we knew then it wouldn't be called faith. Faith is holding the belief in something which you have no evidence to believe in. Definitions of faith - 1.Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. 2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. This is not a science, it is a belief. So to argue that in order to have faith in God we have to KNOW about God would be incorrect, because clearly, God does not need the science or scientific proof to exist if God does exist. I have never tried to use science to explain faith, to me it is impossible because you will eventually stumble. Yet I say that it is possible to have faith and still be a scientist, so long as you don't mix the two subjects together because they do not, nor will they ever mix. I hope that helps clear things up a bit. Also, just my opinion. Take it as you may.

i completely agree with all you have said. Though again, when you say faith is used to cope with oppression and strife in life, in MY mind it de-authenticates it. It becomes a crutch as you mentioned in your story. I'm not saying it therefore can't be true, but what i am saying is people are inclined to believe things (true or not) that they believe (rationally) will benefit them in some way. And in my experience with religion, I'm sure I would have had it a LOT easier if i had chosen simple faith that everything people told me was true over searching for truth on my own. Does it mean that my own search for truth isn't worth it? no.

You certainly would have had it easier if you did not question what the masses believed to be true. I know how it feels to be looked upon as though you are possessed by some demon or something. It really hurts. In my opinion, your search for truth is as relevant to you as faith is as relevant to a believer. You and I need to find our own way in our search for truth. We can either fight about it endlessly our we can help each other through it. Personally I'm tired of fighting and trying to prove that "I'm right".

good, i wish more people of 'faith' would do the same ;)

There is a curious irony behind what some of deep faith will say. Science is the quest for knowledge. Some people of faith will say things like "I know it to be true because I have faith. " In the song "Amazing", Aerosmith says "life's a journey, not a destination". The quest for understanding God is not about finding the "correct" answer. It is about and honest and true quest to find a meaning that works for us wherever we are in our lives.

i agree...everyone wants to lead a meaningful life. My philosophy is to find meaning through reality.

5 More Responses

I was a religious education teacher at my parish when one of my students asked, "aren't we supposed to hate the Jews?"<br />
<br />
I stopped the class and we had a discussion about what Jesus really taught us. <br />
<br />
I realized at that point that I couldn't be part of a culture that promoted division, for that's ultimately what religion does: join us or go away. <br />
<br />
I go to church for weddings and funerals. That's it.

"Join us or go away..." Yes that is absolutely true. Yet another reason why I found it so difficult to remain religious. Something clicked and nothing made sense at all. Rather it all made sense and i realised that not all was right with my beliefs. it took me a while to accept it. There's still a lot to learn but I'm happy with where I am at the moment. Do you still believe in God or did you decide to have done with it all? Just curious. Thank you for your comment.

Check my story under I Believe In God

Will do.