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Suffocating Imperfections

I was born into it.  My mother had survived multiple abusive relationships and childhood...the witnesses, the "truth" gave her a level of security in life she'd never known.  The indoctrination process is so slow and thorough, my mother is the most logical person I know, yet when speaking of Witnesses you almost see her eyes glaze over.
I grew up in a "split" household, my mother constantly feeling inferior in the kingdom hall because her mate was a non-believer.  As a child I was painfully aware that I wasn't quite acceptable due to the fact my father wasn't a baptized member.  My dad was a Hell's Angel, ironic match, and his lifestyle plagued my ability to have friends and interactions with other children my age within the kingdom hall.  I was all but born bad association due to this.
I remember walking the aisles, measuring my steps, image, thoughts of others perceptions.  One foot in front of the other, a perfect line, one stare at a time.  The feelings never stopped.  I was confused, constantly being dictated to me a standard that wasn't my own.  My mother simply told me that I needed to pray for more guidance, that I wasn't trying hard enough.
As I got older, my constant thoughts were part your hair, remember every strand represents Jehovah.  Smile perfectly,  bat your lashes, convince them you are normal.  Talk easily, remember keep eye contact, this makes them feel important.   Practice your approach , your delivery, you need to save these people....to prove your worth in the amount of magazines you can distribute. It was so conflictive.
They instilled me a fear of the unknown, that I never measured up, that I should pray to Jehovah for forgiveness for sins that weren't my own...for the sin of simply existing.  Children weren't encouraged to have, what was the point?  Armageddon was constantly around the corner.  College, pensions, non-essential as well.   I was taught non witnesses were “Worldly”....we shunned our own family, friends, community based off their indifference to our “truth”.  They didn't believe, they were worthless.  Phobias introduced at tender ages, I wanted them to approve.  They threatened with excommunication, loss of approval, of eternal death.  To think differently would be a direct indication that Satan himself was controlling my existence.  The accumulation of it all was crippling, and damaged me.  I was a child, they robbed me of innocence.  I worried about spiritual wars waging in heaven and earth, I worried that my family and self would die in a fiery battle at Armageddon...that I was doomed to a painful death because I wondered aloud....I wondered “why”. 
As a teen, I was ogled by boys in the kingdom hall, my spiritual brothers.  Being touched in private and told it wasn't happening.  My mother battled bipolar and abused us severely.  When the elders were approached by my older sibling, we were told that she was imperfect, that we were over exaggerating.  My mother has the ability to present a face in front of the congregation that deteriorated once home and in private.  She hurt us, and they didn't listen. 
When I turned 17, i'd had enough.  A fellow sister had embezzled mass amounts of money from our mutual employer.  It was easy to point the finger at me, I was the one with a chaotic household, not the perfect pioneer she hid her true personality behind.  I was offended, offended that these examples of how a men should be weren't listening to me.  These were my brothers, my elders, my friends, and yet seeing their fingers being pointed at me seered in ways I still have a hard time comprehending.  I was disfellowshipped. 
At first, being "worldly" was confusing, i'd never known anything outside of the congregation.  I didn't know my extended family, I had no friends, nothing.  I was ostracized in my own home, taking meals separately from my mother...lacking in conversation and interaction.  I was another embarrassment to her. 
My father divorced my mother that year and saved my life.  He saved my sanity, telling me simply "Don't let anyone tell you there is something wrong with you."  As I stayed away, I met people, normal people, who lived their lives in the moments, with the best skills they had...that valued me for my smile, my laugh, my imperfections.  True love...without expectations and requirements.  I finally understood what it mean to feel ok, to just breathe...i've never gone back.
m2extreme m2extreme 31-35, F 41 Responses Apr 12, 2011

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My apologies for what you had to go through, I hope things continue to go well for you.

As a child I was forced to be a part of this religion that I never really accepted. And alas many years later I still wonder why my mother answered that knock on the door:(

-high five-
My mom was a believer and my dad was a recovering drug addict who believed his children should be free to think on their own.
I got baptized.
I wanted to go to college, they didn't like that. I pointed out where it said in their publications that things like that were up to me, they REALLY didn't like that.
I left anyway.
I enjoy reading and learning about all faiths [except JWs and Mormons, those people do nothing but bother you, one can't learn in peaceful solitude], but I will never subscribe to one.

I am glad that this story is understood by so many. Often times explaining how I was raised in a cult is met with disrespect, disbelief, or blatant anger. Everyone seems to know a Jehovah's Witness, but very few understand the true experience of being born into it. I wrote this for the relief it gave me in simply putting the experience into words. I don't talk about this much, to get it out was therapeutic and I never expected people to be able to relate. That has been such a positive experience for me, so thank you for seeing me, listening to me, and above all, not judging me.

THE spirit creature called Michael is not mentioned often in the Bible. However, when he is referred to, he is in action. In the book of Daniel, Michael is battling wicked angels; in the letter of Jude, he is disputing with Satan; and in Revelation, he is waging war with the Devil and his demons. By defending Jehovah’s rulership and fighting God’s enemies, Michael lives up to the meaning of his name—“Who Is Like God?” But who is Michael?
At times, individuals are known by more than one name. For example, the patriarch Jacob is also known as Israel, and the apostle Peter, as Simon. (Genesis 49:1, 2; Matthew 10:2) Likewise, the Bible indicates that Michael is another name for Jesus Christ, before and after his life on earth. Let us consider Scriptural reasons for drawing that conclusion.
Archangel. God’s Word refers to Michael“the archangel.” (Jude 9) This term means “chief angel.” Notice that Michael is calledthe archangel. This suggests that there is only one such angel. In fact, the term “archangel” occurs in the Bible only in the singular, never in the plural. Moreover, Jesus is linked with the office of archangel. Regarding the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 states: “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice.” Thus the voice of Jesus is described as being that of an archangel. This scripture therefore suggests that Jesus himself is the archangel Michael.
Army Leader. The Bible states that “Michael and his angels battled with the dragon . . . and its angels.” (Revelation 12:7) Thus, Michael is the Leader of an army of faithful angels. Revelation also describes Jesus as the Leader of an army of faithful angels. (Revelation 19:14-16) And the apostle Paul specifically mentions “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7) So the Bible speaks of both Michael and “his angels” and Jesus and “his angels.” (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31; 1 Peter 3:22) Since God’s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven—one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus—it is logical to conclude thatMichael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role.*

(Mi′cha·el) [Who Is Like God?].
1. The only holy angel other than Gabriel named in the Bible, and the only one called “archangel.” (Jude 9) The first occurrence of the name is in the tenth chapter of Daniel, where Michael is described as “one of the foremost princes”; he came to the aid of a lesser angel who was opposed by “the prince of the royal realm of Persia.” Michael was called “the prince of [Daniel’s] people,” “the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” (Da 10:13, 20, 21; 12:1) This points to Michael as the angel who led the Israelites through the wilderness. (Ex 23:20, 21, 23; 32:34; 33:2) Lending support to this conclusion is the fact that “Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body.”—Jude 9.
Scriptural evidence indicates that the name Michael applied to God’s Son before he left heaven to become Jesus Christ and also after his return. Michael is the only one said to be “the archangel,” meaning “chief angel,” or “principal angel.” The term occurs in the Bible only in the singular. This seems to imply that there is but one whom God has designated chief, or head, of the angelic host. At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the voice of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ is described as being that of an archangel, suggesting that he is, in fact, himself the archangel. This text depicts him as descending from heaven with “a commanding call.” It is only logical, therefore, that the voice expressing this commanding call be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as King of kings and Lord of lords. (Mt 28:18; Re 17:14) If the designation “archangel” applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to “an archangel’s voice” would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God.
There are also other correspondencies establishing that Michael is actually the Son of God. Daniel, after making the first reference to Michael (Da 10:13), recorded a prophecy reaching down to “the time of the end” (Da 11:40) and then stated: “And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” (Da 12:1) Michael’s ‘standing up’ was to be associated with “a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.” (Da 12:1) In Daniel’s prophecy, ‘standing up’ frequently refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king. (Da 11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21) This supports the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, since Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed King, commissioned to destroy all the nations at Har–Magedon.—Re 11:15; 16:14-16.
The book of Revelation (12:7, 10, 12) specifically mentions Michael in connection with the establishment of God’s Kingdom and links this event with trouble for the earth: “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled. And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: ‘Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down . . . On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea.’” Jesus Christ is later depicted as leading the heavenly armies in war against the nations of the earth. (Re 19:11-16) This would mean a period of distress for them, which would logically be included in the “time of distress” that is associated with Michael’s standing up. (Da 12:1) Since the Son of God is to fight the nations, it is only reasonable that he was the one who with his angels earlier battled against the superhuman dragon, Satan the Devil, and his angels.
In his prehuman existence Jesus was called “the Word.” (Joh 1:1) He also had the personal name Michael. By retaining the name Jesus after his resurrection (Ac 9:5), “the Word” shows that he is identical with the Son of God on earth. His resuming his heavenly name Michael and his title (or name) “The Word of God” (Re 19:13) ties him in with his prehuman existence. The very name Michael, asking as it does, “Who Is Like God?” points to the fact that Jehovah God is without like, or equal, and that Michael his archangel is his great Champion
The Challenge of Knowing God by Name

THERE is someone who wants to prevent you from knowing Jehovah’s name and enjoying a close relationship with Him. Who is this evil foe? The Bible explains: “The god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers.” The god of this present ungodly world is Satan the Devil. He wants to keep you in darkness so that your heart will not be illuminated with “the glorious knowledge of God.” Satan does not want you to know Jehovah by name. How, though, does Satan blind people’s minds?—2 Corinthians 4:4-6.
Satan has used false religion to hinder people from coming to know God by name. For example, in ancient times some Jews chose to ignore the inspired Scriptures in favor of tradition that called for avoiding the use of God’s name. By the first centuries of our Common Era, Jewish public readers had evidently been instructed, not to read God’s name as it appeared in their Holy Scriptures, but to substitute the wordʼAdho·nai′, meaning “Lord.” Doubtless, this practice contributed to a tragic decline in spirituality. Many lost out on the benefits of a close personal relationship with God. What, though, about Jesus? What was his attitude toward Jehovah’s name?
Jesus and His Followers Made God’s Name Known
Jesus declared in prayer to his Father: “I have made your name known . . . and will make it known.” (John 17:26) Jesus would undoubtedly have pronounced God’s name on numerous occasions when he read, quoted, or explained portions of the Hebrew Scriptures containing that important name. Jesus would thus have used God’s name just as freely as all the prophets did before him. If any Jews were already avoiding the use of God’s name during the time of Jesus’ ministry, Jesus would certainly not have followed their tradition. He strongly criticized the religious leaders when he said to them: “You have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition.”—Matthew 15:6.
Faithful followers of Jesus continued to make God’s name known after Jesus’ death and resurrection. (See the box “Did the First Christians Use God’s Name?”) At Pentecost 33 C.E., the very day the Christian congregation was formed, the apostle Peter, quoting from a prophecy of Joel, said to a multitude of Jews and proselytes: “Everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” (Acts 2:21; Joel 2:32) Early Christians helped people from many nations to come to know Jehovah by name. Thus, in a meeting of the apostles and older men in Jerusalem, the disciple James said: “God . . . turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.”—Acts 15:14.
Nevertheless, the enemy of God’s name did not give up. Once the apostles were dead, Satan wasted no time in sowing apostasy. (Matthew 13:38, 39; 2 Peter 2:1) For example, the nominal Christian writer Justin Martyr was born about the time John, the last of the apostles, died. Yet, Justin repeatedly insisted in his writings that the Provider of all things is “a God who is called by no proper name.”
When apostate Christians made copies of the Christian Greek Scriptures, they evidently took Jehovah’s personal name out of the text and substituted Ky′ri·os, the Greek word for “Lord.” The Hebrew Scriptures did not fare any better. No longer reading God’s name aloud, apostate Jewish scribes replaced the divine name in their Scriptures with ʼAdho·nai′ more than 130 times. The influential translation of the Bible into Latin that was completed by Jerome in 405 C.E. and that came to be called theVulgate similarly omitted the personal name of God.
Modern Attempts to Efface God’s Name
Today, scholars are aware that Jehovah’s personal name appears some 7,000 times in the Bible. Thus, some widely used translations, such as the Catholic Jerusalem Bible, the Catholic La Biblia Latinoaméricain Spanish, and the popular Reina-Valera version, also in Spanish, freely use God’s personal name. Some translations render God’s name “Yahweh.”
Sadly, many churches that sponsor Bible translations pressure scholars into omitting God’s name from their translations of the Bible. For example, in a letter dated June 29, 2008, to presidents of Catholic bishops’ conferences, the Vatican stated: “In recent years the practice has crept in of pronouncing the God of Israel’s proper name.” The letter gives this pointed direction: “The name of God . . . is neither to be used or pronounced.” Furthermore, “for the translation of the Biblical text in modern languages, . . . the divinetetragrammaton is to be rendered by the equivalent of Adonai/Kyrios: ‘Lord.’” Clearly, this Vatican directive is aimed at eliminating the use of God’s name.
Protestants have been no less disrespectful in their treatment of Jehovah’s name. A spokesman for the Protestant-sponsored New International Version,published in English in 1978, wrote: “Jehovah is a distinctive name for God and ideally we should have used it. But we put 21⁄4 million dollars into this translation and a sure way of throwing that down the drain is to translate, for example, Psalm 23 as, ‘Yahweh is my shepherd.’”
In addition, churches have hindered Latin Americans from knowing God by name. Steven Voth, a translation consultant for the United Bible Societies (UBS), writes: “One of the ongoing debates in Latin American Protestant circles revolves around the use of the name Jehová . . . Interestingly enough, a very large and growing neo-pentecostal church . . . said they wanted a Reina-Valera 1960 edition, but without the name Jehová. Instead, they wanted the word Señor [Lord].” According to Voth, the UBS rejected this request at first but later gave in and published an edition of the Reina-Valera Bible “without the word Jehová.”
Deleting God’s name from his written Word and replacing it with “Lord” hinders readers from truly knowing who God is. Such a substitution creates confusion. For example, a reader may not be able to discern whether the term “Lord” refers to Jehovah or to his Son, Jesus. Thus, in the scripture in which the apostle Peter quotes David as saying: “Jehovah said to my Lord [the resurrected Jesus]: ‘Sit at my right hand,’” many Bible translations read: “The Lord said to my Lord.” (Acts 2:34, NIV) In addition, David Clines, in his essay “Yahweh and the God of Christian Theology,” points out: “One result of the absence of Yahweh from Christian consciousness has been the tendency to focus on the person of Christ.” Thus, many churchgoers are hardly aware that the true God to whom Jesus directed his prayers is a Person with a name—Jehovah.
Satan has worked hard at blinding people’s minds about God. Even so, you can become intimately acquainted with Jehovah.
You Can Know Jehovah by Name
To be sure, Satan has waged war on the divine name, and he has cleverly used false religion in the process. However, the reality is that no power in heaven or on earth can stop the Sovereign Lord Jehovah from making his name known to those who want to know the truth about him and his glorious purpose for faithful humans.
Jehovah’s Witnesses will be pleased to help you learn how to draw close to God through a study of the Bible. They follow the example of Jesus, who said to God: “I have made your name known to them.” (John 17:26) As you contemplate the scriptures that reveal the various roles that Jehovah has occupied for the blessing of mankind, you will come to know the many beautiful facets of his exalted personality.
The faithful patriarch Job enjoyed “intimacy with God,” and so can you. (Job 29:4) With knowledge of God’s Word, you can know Jehovah by name. Such knowledge will give you confidence that Jehovah will act in harmony with what he said was the meaning of his name—‘I Will Become whatsoever I please.’ (Exodus 3:14, footnote) Thus, he will surely fulfill all his good promises to mankind.
Did the First Christians Use God’s Name?
During the days of Jesus’ apostles in the first century C.E., Christian congregations were formed in many lands. The members of those congregations regularly met together to study the Scriptures. Did those early Christians find Jehovah’s name in their copies of the Scriptures?
Since Greek had become the international language, many congregations used the Greek Septuagint, a translation of the Hebrew Scriptures completed in the second century B.C.E. Some scholars claim that from the time it was originally translated, the Septuagint had always replaced God’s name with the title Ky′ri·os, the Greek word for “Lord.” But the facts show otherwise.
The fragments illustrated here are portions of the Greek Septuagint that date from the first century B.C.E. They clearly show Jehovah’s name, represented in the Greek text by the four Hebrew letters יהוה (YHWH), or the Tetragrammaton. Professor George Howard wrote: “We have three separate pre-Christian copies of the Greek Septuagint Bible and in not a single instance is the Tetragrammaton translatedkyrios or for that matter translated at all. We can now say with near certainty that it was a Jewish practice before, during, and after the New Testament period to write the divine name . . . right into the Greek text of Scripture.”—Biblical Archaeology Review.
Did Jesus’ apostles and disciples use God’s name in their inspired writings? Professor Howard notes: “When the Septuagint which the New Testament church used and quoted contained the Hebrew form of the divine name, the New Testament writers no doubt included the Tetragrammaton in their quotations.”
Therefore, we may safely conclude that the first Christians could read God’s name both in their translations of the Hebrew Scriptures and in their copies of the Christian Greek Scriptures.

GREAT CROWD

An expression that, in itself, is quite common in the Christian Greek Scriptures. “Great crowd(s)” is sometimes used with regard to the large groups of persons who heard Jesus Christ’s public teaching. (Mt 14:14; 19:2; 20:29) After the vision of the destruction of the symbolic Babylon the Great, the apostle John heard “what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven.” (Re 19:1) At Revelation 7:9, however, “a great crowd” is mentioned whose identification has particularly been a matter of keen interest.
In this chapter, the apostle John first refers to the sealing of 144,000 slaves of God “out of every tribe of the sons of Israel.” (Re 7:2-8) After this, he saw in a vision “a great crowd” out of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues. These ascribe their salvation to God and to the Lamb as they stand before God’s throne. They have come out of “the great tribulation,” they serve God in his temple, and he spreads his tent over them. All their hunger and thirst are to be ended and every tear is to be wiped from their eyes as his Son (the Lamb; Joh 1:29) guides them to the waters of life.—Re 7:9-17.
Popular Views. Various views have been advanced as to the significance and identification of this “great crowd.” Many commentators view the 144,000 sealed ones, first mentioned, as members of “spiritual Israel” and believe that they symbolize the Christian congregation while on earth. They feel that the “great crowd” represents that same Christian congregation in heaven, after the individuals have died in faith and have been resurrected. Others hold that the 144,000 are literally from “every tribe of the sons of Israel” (Re 7:4), that is, fleshly Jews who become Christians, and they consider the “great crowd” to represent all the Gentile Christians. A consideration of Revelation chapter 7 and other related texts, however, reveals serious inconsistencies in these views, at the same time pointing to a different conclusion.
To hold that the 144,000 sealed ones are the members of the Christian congregation while on earth whereas the “great crowd” are the resurrected Christians in heaven does not harmonize with the other mention of the 144,000, in Revelation chapter 14. There the 144,000 are stationed with the Lamb on “Mount Zion.” At Hebrews 12:18-24 the apostle Paul contrasts the experience of the Israelites at the earthly Mount Sinai with that of the Christians who have “approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens.” Obviously, then, although Revelation 14:3 says that the 144,000 have been “bought from the earth,” the context depicts them as being, not on earth, but in heaven with the heavenly Lamb, Christ Jesus. (Re 14:3, 4) This renders invalid the view that the 144,000 represent the Christian congregation while on earth in contrast with their being the “great crowd” in heaven.
Additionally, the way in which the apostle John introduces his vision of the “great crowd” indicates a clear distinction of identity between them and the 144,000 sealed ones. He states: “After these things [the account of the 144,000 sealed ones] I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number.” (Re 7:9) He thus presents the “great crowd” as a separate entity and makes a definite contrast between the specific number of the 144,000 and the unnumbered “great crowd.” They are also distinguished by their being, not “of the sons of Israel,” but out of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues. They are not seen standing ‘with the Lamb’ as are the 144,000, at Revelation 14:1, but are “before the Lamb.” These several factors all argue that the “great crowd” is separate and distinct from the 144,000 sealed ones.
On the other hand, the view that here Christians of Jewish stock are being distinguished from Gentile Christians runs counter to the apostle Paul’s inspired statement that fleshly distinctions are of no consideration in the Christian congregation, its members being all one in union with Christ Jesus. (Ro 10:12; Ga 3:28) Jehovah, having ‘fully reconciled both peoples [Jews and non-Jews] to himself in one body’ through Christ, could hardly be expected to make a division between the two groups now by separating fleshly Jews from Gentiles in the vision given to John. (Eph 2:11-21; Ac 15:7-9) This is particularly evident when the divine principle stated by Paul is taken into account. The apostle wrote: “He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit.” (Ro 2:28, 29) Why, too, would there be no mention of any ‘sealing’ of the Gentile Christians in this divine vision? And why would not the Gentile Christians be able to master the new song sung by the 144,000? (Re 14:3) It thus seems clear that the 144,000 sealed ones are of spiritual Israel, not fleshly Israel—hence include both Jewish and Gentile Christians.—Ga 6:16.
Their Identification. The key to the identification of the “great crowd” is found within the description of them in Revelation chapter 7 and in obviously parallel passages. Revelation 7:15-17 speaks of God as ‘spreading his tent over them,’ of their being guided to “fountains of waters of life,” and of God’s wiping “every tear from their eyes.” At Revelation 21:2-4 we find parallel expressions: ‘God’s tent being with mankind,’ his ‘wiping every tear from their eyes,’ and ‘death being no more.’ The vision there presented is concerning persons not in heaven, from where the ‘New Jerusalem comes down,’ but on earth, among mankind.
This poses the question: If the “great crowd” are persons who gain salvation and remain on earth, how could they be said to be ‘standing before God’s throne and before the Lamb’? (Re 7:9) The position of ‘standing’ is sometimes used in the Bible to indicate the holding of a favored or approved position in the eyes of the one in whose presence the individual or group stands. (Ps 1:5; 5:5; Pr 22:29, AT; Lu 1:19) In fact, in the previous chapter of Revelation, “the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and every free person” are depicted as seeking to hide themselves “from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” (Re 6:15-17; compare Lu 21:36.) It thus appears that the “great crowd” is formed of those persons who have been preserved during that time of wrath and who have been able to “stand” as approved by God and the Lamb.
The Lamb’s guiding them to “fountains of waters of life” finds a parallel at Revelation 22:17, which says: “The spirit and the bride keep on saying: ‘Come!’ And let anyone hearing say: ‘Come!’ and let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.” The “bride” is clearly identified in the Scriptures as the anointed Christian congregation, espoused to the heavenly Bridegroom, Christ Jesus. (Eph 5:25-27; 2Co 11:2; Re 19:7-9; 21:9-11) The invitation to “take life’s water free” presented by the heavenly “bride” class is obviously open to an unlimited number of persons, “anyone that wishes.” Likewise unnumbered are the “great crowd,” the vision at Revelation 7:9 thereby harmonizing with that at Revelation 22:17.
The sum of the evidence, therefore, points to the “great crowd” as representing all those persons who are not of the heavenly “bride” class, or 144,000 sealed ones, but who stand approved at the time of the “great tribulation” and are preserved alive on earth.

The scriptures do not lie. Please understand that the new world translation bible is the closest most accurate bible compared to the original Greek Septuagint Old Testament and the original New Testament books. The watchtower merely is pointing these scriptures out. Sorta like the cliff notes. Almost every modern bible translation was edited by the Catholic Church between the 8th century and 15th. The writers of the Latin vulgate bible were not well versed on Koine Greek because it was not in use after the 1st century. There have been many mistakes in the translations by the church plus the fact that the church wanted to have a universal god the pagans along with all others can worship. Therefore verses were added by the church at a time when the majority of the population were illiterate. Also written in Latin by the church when that language was a dead language. This was all done to corroborate the teachings of trinitarianism along with other pagan beliefs the church created. The verses in 1 John 5:7 are an example. There are more if you research. I'm merely pointing you towards what I believe is the Truth. Jehovah's Witnesses are bible scholars. The NWT bible uses the original Greek words translated into modern English. When you do that you get a clear understanding of what the original authors true intent was.

Thank you for reading.

Well, I appreciate you taking the time to cut and paste a very long, very wasted explanation of what JWs believe. I can't tell what book you've taken this from or article, but this isn't research. This is you, quoting word for word what the society is telling you. Not you going and looking up, finding each of those scriptures yourself to prove your point. You have to understand, anything can be bent to make "sense"....in this narrative, you're the society is actually pointing that out. However, when you have to rewrite an original manuscript that is used in every other christian organization because only you think it's wrong, then you might delve deeper into why they felt that was needed? You'll be encouraged to compare the 2 bibles....the NWT to the KJV....and yet, I doubt you ever truly will. I mean sit down and compare word for word. I was always told i had free will to do so, and yet, what stopped me is exactly what stops everyone else.... you feel the society is telling you enough truth that you don't have to. They've fed you enough BS to think it's a waste of time because obviously they are correct about everything.
When you have to use several scriptures to string along a thought...is it really an accurate thought at that point? Watchtower paragraphs always take little tidbits from several scriptures to make a point, when really, thats exactly the same as taking a few words here and there from a paragraph....to make up whatever you want to say. Each scripture you sited above, has an entire story developed around it that you are missing. You are only regurgitating society information with no real point in this ramble.
Ask yourself why you felt so extremely compelled to prove your point in a response to my story? That zeal you have is an amazing quality, yet its not based on real information. Real actual personal research, it's based off articles designed with notions that have no real factual basis. No matter how many words they can string together from different bible versus....they never do it from the KJV...and there's a reason for that.
The NWT is in fact very much rewritten with JW undertones to it. Perhaps you don’t know this, but the Jehovah’s Witnesses do not claim that the translation was done by translators who knew Hebrew and Greek. A "translation committee" of anointed members compiled the NWT. Fred Franz, Nathan Knorr, Albert Schroeder, George Gangas, and M. Henschel, had no Hebrew or Greek training and had only high school level educations. Those are the members who wrote the NWT.
When Fred Franz was asked how the interpretation and translation of the NWT was made, he said it "emanated from God, “passed to the Holy Spirit who, invisible, communicates with Jehovah’s Witnesses – and the publicity department.”" During that same trial in Glasgow, they asked him to interpret a scripture from Greek to English and he could not. If that doesn't give you pause ....than you truly don't have your own understanding.

Dear m2etreme,

Just to say: well done! your reply could not be put better and yet not many witnesses would listen. And not many will do the research either. My guess is for saying all that you will be call an "apostate" but you are true to yourself. Am on my way out, I've tried to reason with my "friends" but all I got is: you are an apostate. Is very difficult to even try and not being shunned straight away! That's what happened to me! So very sad! But am glad that my eyes have been open! and am free to do REAL research and see for myself the "truth".
Once again: very well done!

Mags...I found the neatest quote the other day...I love the movie Fight Club so was surprised I hadn't heard it before....

"And then, something happened. I let go. Lost in oblivion, dark and silent and complete I found freedom. Losing all hope was freedom."

That just rang so true to me about being disfellowshipped, the feeling of being lost and all alone, depressed etc...and then learning to sit in that, and reconcile I was ok. Losing that "hope" of the new system and JW teachings....I found myself and reality.

You will be fine...and you're right, they won't hear what I really say. Conditioned not to. But you've tried, and that is loving.

I loved this story. You are worthy of life, we are survivors.

Glad you made it out of this cult!

Blame the people, don't blame GOD.

Really??? Get an education! Get a life. EVERYONE HATES YOU KNOCKING ON THEIR DOOR!!!!!

it's crazy starting over. I've always believed in GOD and never stopped. it wasn't til a few months ago when my wife got on me about not praying. i told her i felt bad for praying cause i wasn't following his word. i wanted to follow.i just never felt good enough. i always felt worthless when i thought about my life as a witness. i pray daily and I'm finally feeling like i have a relationship with HIM. i was talking to my mom about those feelings a few days so. she admitted to me that she never felt she had a relationship GOD either. crazy thing is, she won't stop defending the "truth". for me starting over feels wrong.i know it's not. i pray constantly one day i stop feeling like this. i pray one day i focus on the good in life and not the horrible things to come... or won't come

honestly, I learned to retrain my thinking. We can't bring the last moment back in our lives, nor can we predict the next, what we have is this moment now...live it. Don't ignore life in the hopes for a better future you can't predict. I've also found, 'miracles' etc all happen regardless of what you call them... so one could call it a miracle, another a coincidence. Either way, they still happen. So in that sense...maybe everyone is right in their own way? We can form our thinking to what we think is right...but not often form it to common sense...bcuz at some point, there will always be a part of religion that you know you should question...but don't due to the ingrained teaching that it's wrong to question God.

For me personally...I refuse to feel I need to question an entity that no one can prove. I believe the reasons we don't know things are bcuz we haven't figured them out yet...not that God hasnt' revealed them yet. Every generation advances to better understanding of science and the basis of things...whose to say we can't advance to understanding more? All religions believe God is only on their side...so if that's true...why is he allowing "unbelievers and sinners" to investigate his works? Again...to me, goes back to the theory he's not real. The bible to me is a pretty sadistic fairy tale as if you take it at face value the stories are very disturbing. We were taught to take some parts literal but not all of it...to me, you can't hair split life like that. I could steal something, but yet say I was "borrowing" it...bcuz I say it means something else does it really? Same for the bible concepts.

Dunno if that makes sense...lol I just don't feel I need to rely on an idea and not my own thinking to feel happy and fulfilled in life. Plus, letting go of that thinking has made me feel i've come to the understanding of myself...which makes life so much lighter and peaceful for me.

Look up the origin of the word "Sin". The Christian movement changed the meaning. It is an archery term. It means "to miss the mark". So you miss the goal, re-align and move on. :) Sin does not mean "bad, unworthy".

that's a great point....seems like the origins of everything I was taught are slightly jacked up and rewritten for their own use.

Raises glass and says, "I'll drink to that!" Not only rewritten for their own use, but interpreted for their own use to fit their way or what they perceive to be their way of the righteous life.

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my parents were witnesses when i was a baby. around other witnesses my father was a prince. behind closed doors he would tie my mother up and beat her with a wire hanger. my mom felt guilty leaving because only adultery was a way out. my father was so twisted he convinced her to commit adultery so they could get divorced and he would come out clean. I'm sorry for everything you went thru

my mom convinced my dad to write a letter to the elders confessing adultery so she could have a clean divorce too. He told me the day he died that he never cheated on my mother. It's odd how they convince themselves it's ok to lie about somethings...and condemn others for the same thing. They twist it into thinking it's their way of staying clean...when lying itself is the way they get dirty.

Thank God you got out. I always invite JW into my home where I WITNESS TO THEM. They quote the Bible out of context and make it their own not God's. I read it in context and show them that the only way to God is through Jesus. Jesus said love God with all your heart and love each other as ourselves. Jesus was gods ONLY son. These are his only commandment to us. Please don't give up on God. JWs have a perverted notion of God. But God is real, a loving God. Religion is and always has been a terrible thing. God only wants our faith. We are not supposed to be slaves to religion, but children of the One True God. Thanks for your story. BTW I have fought bipolar myself for over 50 years . It does not mean crazy. Thanks for pointing that out as well.

Jesus is the reason for the Season. Amen.

I too was born into the religion. I never got baptized. I understand the suffocation you are talking about. However, my family is still in it and I have respect for them. They have freedom to believe what they want and if they are happy with who they are, more power to them. By you writing this post, it only signifies that you do think about what others think and trying to justify your end. Just live your life the way you want to.

I actually wrote this years ago...to explain to my cousin why I chose to become a psychologist and why I all her birthday cards were returned as we grew up. It's also therapeutic to talk about. Gotta admit tho, if I thought what others felt were a significant force in my life, i'd still be there. And well....lol if you read my other stories about my life, you'll get a better feel for why I don't care. Life humbles you...growing up a JW was just one way it has. I don't have respect what so ever for the teachings...it doesn't negate the people tho. I'd be no different had I stayed...still judging, still walking that line...still being in pins and needles waiting for a global destruction to begin living. Just not for me...not after realizing it didn't have to be. My mom tho, she is a better person for it. Actually, most of the witnesses I know who came into it as adults are better people for it. Like you said...freedom of choice...I think also my story directly reflects on my particular congregation. I should probably put a side note about that... since not all congregations are like the one I grew up in. There's plenty of flourishing ones still.

Nice attempt at a deflection there but you didn't address the very real issues I raised. I'll put it to you another way. Can you cite any Bible scriptures or Watchtower publication that advocates the horrible treatment you received while growing up? Is your particular childhood atypical of a traditional Jehovah's Witness household? :)

that's not deflection Maxx...you're quite the epitome of if yourself. Again...I will reiterate, because you choose to overlook my point that my issue is not with the bible. And, if you've ever met anyone raised a Jehovah's Witness, who is no longer one, the majority will relate to what i'm saying. You can not relate, because you were not raised one...that part is obvious. You are not quite a good JW yet, because even they know to not argue to this level with someone they can not bring into the fold. To be argumentative casts a negative light on them Maxx...they will tell you that as well. Keep studying...if you feel it's truth, that's great. For me it is not, and it was not the greatest rearings. My story is mine...you don't have to agree. However, I will ask you to respect my differences, and quit your pointless tirade on my story.

Maxximiliann, my step-daughter has been raised in the cult. I have seen HORRIBLE abuse and treatment. Her step father has walked in on her naked and watched her. Under the name of "Jehovah". He was looking at her underware.....AND HER MOTHER DEFENDED THIS BEHAVIOR. They pulled her out of school and now she works. She works HARD. Her parents take money from her. They ground her and take away electronics her real father gave her. Again under the name of "Jehovah". This is an evil religion.

Actually, it's not :)



You indict millions upon millions of good, moral, loving and honest-hearted people because of the unfortunate actions of a very few. How is that any different from a person who holds racist, bigoted views because of their poor experiences with a few people of another race? :)



I also bring this up because, like me, there are many who endured difficult childhoods at the hands of less-than-perfect parents yet, because of the close, personal relationship they had with Jehovah God, this only served to bring them closer to Him.



You say you lost your faith in God. To that I must ask, can you really lose what you've never had? :)

ahh...there you come out with it. You speak exactly like a Jehovah's Witness. You shouldn't misrepresent you intentions so grossly Maxx. Your only reason for coming here is to defend Jehovah's Witnesses. Should have been upfront...you would have gotten a lot more respect for it. Have a good one.

Max is a troll. He has posted this same thing in three other posts that I have seen. He is just trying to start argument. Ignore him. This is what internet trolls do.

Some things are better not said Katiesgrandpa. Think what you like, but be a mature adult and don't say it. Like one man said, 'Better to remain silent and have people think you a moron, than to speak and remove all doubt'. :) just sayin'!

I am 14yrs old and i've been a JW my whole life. It's all i've ever known. I'm not gonna try and change your view, because you obviously have your mind set, and have walked your path. All i want to say is that Jehovah's Witnesses didn't make you feel the things you did. That was all based on your own insecurities. That sounds harsh an you will probably strongly disagree with me, but it's what i've observed. There are times when i sometimes feel trapped by what i'm being taught, especially when i hav to then explain these things to my mates, and explain why i can't go to their birthday party, or say why i can't accept their chocolate easter egg. You may have felt trapped by your feelings of being constantly judged, but that doesn't give you the right to call the organization a 'cult', or to give people the impression that they are pretentious, self-righteous people. You especially(since you are a former Witness) should know why posting this was a bad idea. It was feeding the hate the people already harbor for us.

maxximiliann

You are beginning to sound like a cd skipping in a cd player, It seems trying to pick an ex JW apart and point all faults is the ways of Satan, Accuser of the brethren, Liar, and a Father of lies, and Deception. Just to let you know, Please read the Book Of Revelation Chapter 22:19, No we are not talking Jehovah bible, we are talking 1611 King James Version bible. Okay,

It goes like this: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

The Book is the original 1611 King James Version.

Want to find Kingdom of God, Search in Book of Acts 2:38 in King James Version of 1611

Maxx is brainwashed. I don't think there is any hope. How very sad.

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Interesting. Why weren't you able to make that same distinction then? :)

You're repeating your question i've already answered. Have a nice life Maxx...might be time for you to find another person to massage your ego with. Your only point in this is to argue.

You blame God and the Bible for your difficult ubringing so you "escape" from it only to land in prison for becoming a criminal. I sympathize with your painful upbrining, I really do. However, is it really honest to blame God and the Bible for it and the poor choices you've made? :)

if you re-read my story...I don't blame God and the Bible at all. I blame the interpretation of it by a said group and how painful it was to be reared in that environment. I do believe Maxx, you've read my story with a preset notion and can't see past that. Ask yourself why? Not only have you misinterpreted my story with a very defensive mental filter, you've then gone on to attack me for my mistakes in life...regardless of the lessons i've learned from them (if you've read my other stories properly you'd know that part as well)...so again, ask yourself...why are you trying to pick me apart? I've yet to set myself above others...nor do I assume I am...I am just me, and that's what you're hearing in my depictions of life.

Last time I checked, you only end up in jail for engaging in criminal activity. I don't quite see how becoming a criminal betters anyone's life. Just sayin' :)

lol and you've never made mistakes in life Maxx? I don't hide mine, nor act above others for simply having them. Making petty digs at me does exactly what for you? Do you feel superior in your points? It doesn't change anything, nor does it even apply to my childhood. Must suck to constantly have to find faults in other...since there's so much more to life than coming on an online program to feed your ego. ;) I did go to prison, I stole from a wonderful employer. He was a good man to me...and I took advantage of it. Since then, i've become a psychologist, had children, started my own art business...and well, made my life quite comfortable in comparison to others. So...sit in judgment... but I doubt mistakes that have been overcome truly dictate a person's quality. Nice try tho.

Kinda. It seems you "escaped" to become a better person. If that's the case, why'd you end up in prison? :)

Your "little bird" needs to do some fact checking :)

No, I haven't.

if you've read my story, then you know the answer. I doubt being in prison has affected my ability to be a better person.....if anything, it taught me how to be so with more humility. If you are a JW Maxx...you might have just proved the ignorance level of them with your question above...or their judgemental standard. LOL I will point out, I was recently labeled "Apostate" as well as 3 other friends...so again, if you are baptized, you'd be smart to discontinue talking to me, as your eternal future is at stake by doing so. If not, well, you might go speak to some...I suspect you'd get along. ;)

No worries. I was just trying to understand if you ever had faith in God, that's all :)

well, to be honest Maxx when you're born into a religion, your perceptions of God are cultivated by your teachers. So for me, I did believe in God...my entire life, until watching the ppl who taught me my values, turn so severely. They are not bad people...however, the more that I got away from the exposure and extreme teachings, the more I realized what I thought I knew...was incorrect. If anything, i've felt more secure in learning how wrong it all was...than how right it seemed to me at the time. There was more fear being instilled when you "believed"....and it's represented to you as "hope" and "respect" that fear...so, renamed and redefined, when in reality it is what it is. Again for me personally, when I look around and realize organized religion in it's entirety shares that basic principle, then the over all belief in God for me is hard to subscribe to. If there is one, that's great...if not, that's ok too. Either way, I've learned to determine my own happiness based off learning myself. Dunno if that makes sense.

M2extreme, I also do not want to get into dispute over the Bible, b/c I know my Bible and my believes. Some people change things in the Bible to push their believes.

I know the Lord Jesus is the only Savior that paid for our sins and by believing that, gives you eternal life with Christ.

If I could ask, have you ever read the Bible in its entirety? :)

I appreciate you reading my story. However, I did not post it to debate the bible, those opposing views, and/or argue with those affiliated with jehovah's witnesses. Agree to disagree with it...but I sincerely have no intention of debating biblical accounts and or views. I wrote this story to express how I was raised, not have to defend myself to other people for simply surviving something. I do appreciate you reading it Maxximiliann.

This is the third thread you have posted this question. You are obviously a troll trying to cause discord. To all, avoid this person. He is a troll.

Scattycat1, you said some things we can think about, but it is too aggressive, without knowledge of m2extreme and her personal situation.

Agreed 2doerver.... to be honest, witnesses are so used to having to defend themselves, it's a hyper sensitivity. I find I have it, on the opposite spectrum. It's why they all seems like zealots..constantly put on the defense. And...many ex, as well as existing, feel that need to defend in the manner above. Lord I did it for years....was very convinced what I was taught and told was correct. I think you probably get that behavior from anytime of extreme activity or environment you're around for significant amounts of time. The mental illness part tho is where Scatty is out of their field in speaking of. Bludgeon me all you want about the witnesses, but don't dictate to me what mental illness is or how it affects actions. That is one subject that Scatty is out of their field on. Which ...even in that is ok...the insults tho show the inability to rationalize or the ability to show empathy. Classic JW behavior towards "worldly" ppl. All I can say, is I simply don't miss them.

I grew up as a Jehovah's Witness also, and I have not been involved for many years. I do not practice nor do I plan to....But I find it interesting that you blame your problems on JW's. Just the fact that your mother was Bi Polar and your father a "Hells Angels" as you put it...seems to be the actual problem in your life. It would not have mattered what religion you mother was, there would have been problems. That is what mental illness does. Bringing me to my next and final point. You claim your mother "is the most logical person I know" yet go on to claim "My mother battled bipolar and abused us severely" I am not sure what kind of fool would believe your story as you clearly contradicted yourself with lies. If you had a bad experience then just say the truth about it...nothing wrong with that. You completely discredited yourself with your lack of remembering what you said. I feel sorry for you that you felt that you couldn't just state your reality, instead had to color it to attempt to make people feel sorry for you. I hope you get the help you need and accept the pain you suffered without adding conflicting colors to your story.

Well there's nothing wrong with disagreeing with my dictation and vantage point of how i grew up. However to blatantly tell someone they are lying and attempt to explain mental illness to someone who has a degree in that field makes you abit off course in your analysis. Which again is ok...chalk it up to difference of opinion. Here's where you severely misrepresented your character, at least I hope it's a gross misrepresentation.... The need to put another down, insult, and slander is a classic example of immaturity.
It's as simple as this...you aren't me. You may sit in judgement of my life story but you never lived it yourself.
So unfortunately you might try taking that ridiculing eye and turn it on yourself....ask yourself why you feel the need to bash and insult someone for simply telling their story? In other words...figure out what is causing your hyper sensitivity and agression as I sincerely doubt one depiction is the origin

WildeOscar, very original! ~ Congratulations!

I once pointed a firearm to them (they are always 2, or more). They do not trust one another.

I usually just smile and tell them that i'm late for a blood donation appointment at the Red Cross. Still trying to decide whether to do the double-red-cell donation through the machine, or the standard donation of a single pint of whole blood. They cringe and move on. I call after them "every eight weeks."

LOL ya....I remember my mom always wanted to have a book study in our house and was pissed my dad wouldn't get baptized. LOL Dunno how she got that disillusioned that he was just gonna up and shave his beard and act civil. LOL There is a distinction in the kingdom hall of families who are considered more spiritually active than others...I love when ppl who are just studying try to argue this with me. As if a life time experience doesn't equate to their peeking thru the door. Simplest concept i've ever understood about emotional wisdom was we hyper focus on what’s “right” and “wrong” so much so that we don’t realize that this constriction causes suffering. Our righteousness often distracts us from experiencing our suffering and exercising the authority we have to transform it. <-that is something I learned from my own personal rebellion. ;) Screw right and wrong...in the end, exactly what does that accomplish in this moment that I am living now? It doesn't matter at all... can't bring the minute prior back, nor can we predict and control the next.... so to stick with the concepts and distortions we were raised with, we'd never truly understand ourselves...lol or be "rebellious"...which is really, just us growing up with a negative title because someone else doesn't approve or can control. thanks for reading my story and validating some of that crap...stuff sucked.

I was born into the truth. My mom is a regular pioneer and my two sisters are also regular pioneers. My mother has been pioneering all my life,most of hers...



My upbringing ? Well, for starters your so right. My mother would have not allowed me to even venture to your side of the hall. I'll do you one better. I came up in a single parent household. My sisters and I were usually the charity cause of the congregation, which wasn't so bad except if my mom for any reason thought you were "demonized"... Well, she'd take whatever clothes the considerate brother or sister offered - she'd smile and say thank you, then once we got home the clothes would go right into the dumpster.



In your case, having a Hells Angels father!? We wouldn't even had made it home. My mom woulda pulled over somewhere on the way home and chucked whatever you'd given us into the closest most available trash bin...



This was life BEFORE my own personal rebellion begin which kicked in right around high school.

dear extreme i'm not a witness myself but i have studied a while. however what you represented of the witness i will never recognize. you say you suffered abuse at the hands of your mother making it appear as if somehow her religious practices were at fault yet after revealed her mental instability. might it not have been that her extreme behaviour was exacerbated by bipolar disorder . You say that you were further disillusioned by the bad behaviour of other witnesses, well i am in no position to belittle your claims & it is regrettable but all religions have their good & bad, however to make it appear that the very serious failings of these individuals is a reflection on the organization on a whole or the millions of witnesses doing their utmost to live better & more exemplary lives is a misrepresentation of their personal struggles & a regrettable case of 'Logical Compositio'

You are correct, my mother's inabilities seriously hindered my growth process. "Short comings" is what you'd call them in you were a witness. We all have them, you're correct in that statement as well, and yes, all religions do have ones that misrepresent them to the extreme.

My particular story isn't just talking about a select few, my story is talking about my entire life. 17 years of it. I will point out, to study is one thing, you were not raised in that environment solely, therefore your vantage point is different from mine. If you've studied long enough, you'll notice there is a difference in Witnesses that have been raised and born into it, and new ones that come from the world and learn a cleaner life style. The positive about your situation, is you came from something different, and were introduced to a positive reflection of it. So, it's understandable you defend it, as really you're new to it. I can list several positives about the lifestyles encouraged in general that are what you'd consider cleaner... but those are things you can implement in your life and personal standards without subscribing to the actual religion.

If you read my story, and you take out the examples of certain individuals, the mother...the father...the elders...and the pervy boys... what you're left with is the intense teachings that also traumatized my childhood. My story isn't to be twisted to be about certain people, which seems to be all you picked up on...it's about the entire concept I was exposed to as a child, the teachings and the indoctrination process.... which you have not been exposed to it long enough to truly grasp what i'm saying.

There is a reason why the majority if teenagers and children who leave the congregation do not go back... perhaps their techniques in training children along side an adult is traumatic, in my case it was...the things I heard and were exposed to in pictorial representations of God's word were graphic and sick...and far beyond reality to me now. Either way, as an adult, with my own ability to choose...that doesn't involve the brow beating concept of "disappointing" a benign being we can not even see... I have a sense of self I would have never enjoyed had I stayed.

So, if you'd like to re-read my story...minus the references to individuals... you'll see I have quite abit more to say than just people bashing.... it's the teachings themselves that are disgusting and traumatic...the zealots that come with it are merely side effects.

Wow, I experienced exactly the same, my gran died at 13 my mum and dad became JWs so did I, I was young and just went with it, 6 months after studying i got baptised after passing there open book question system...left when i was 16, never got disfellowshipped, but got treated like i was....Way I see it is, if they are gods chosen ones I dont want to sit an hour in their company, so forever in their company sure isnt paradise to me haha!!

mlanglea,

I thought you people knows the Bible, or is it your own version the bible, that you know?

Can you remember what happened to the bush where Jehovah talked/met Moses? ~ the bush did not burn out!!

m2extreme,

Thanks for your comments. I can see you know the real story!

I'm also not bothered what other non-christians say or think. I'm saved by Jesus, the Christ as my only Savior.