They Really Do

Society is full of messages that can harm women.  We are judged on our bodies, our weight, our breasts... what about the rest of us?  Why are little girls being dressed up as sexual beings?  Why do commercials still push the image of women as sex objects?

Why does society allow the level of battered women it does?  Why is there not more outrage at the number of women who are stalked and killed every year?  Why is there not a louder outcry at the way rape victims are treated?

Why are women punished for being women -- charged higher premiums for health insurance, made to fight for reproductive rights, paid less for equal work?

And then to have misogynists snicker at us when we point out these problems, told that we are hysterical if we yell loudly about them.

Those people make me really, really sick.

SaratogaGirl SaratogaGirl
26-30, F
49 Responses May 20, 2009

don't any of you men actually know how to read? the OP states quite clearly the reasons why it is wrong to hate women on top of the abuse we are already suffering with inequality to males. how about shutting the hell up and listening to the protest? all i'm seeing here is guys sticking their fingers in their ears singing "i can't hear you, neener neener"....<br />
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again, what the hell is wrong with expecting equal pay rights?<br />
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and what about not being sexualized?<br />
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these are the issues raised in this story that incenses the woman who posted it. she and all women have a right to be angry that we are still being hated while we are being denied rights that men have fully. wake up and quit the slinging match here and just LOOK at the issues, it's not rocket science, gentlemen. coming here with anti and counter-statements about misandry isn't making you look like nice guys either... makes you look like the female-hating, whiny little boys you still are.

I know Trouble. Imagine at an interview.... "Let's see, I see you seem to be quite qualified for this postition... Oh wait, is that a vagina I see? Hmmm, I'm sorry the position had been filled." :-)

no it's not quite that literal, how stupid of you. but hey, i have been passed up for promotion many times for the doods when i am in fact far more competent and skilled for the job. i can also tell how much you hate women by your disgusting avatar pic. yuck. misogyny is sick.

Pixe, You could dominate me any time.

i think its because we live in a mans world. we outnumber them, and yet, they still run things. maybe one day things will change...

Aw I didn't read all those big long comments here but Sara your story is great!

Analyzer- <br />
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If you are trying to illustrate the complexity of the reasons why women are paid less than men for the same job, you are failing, because your example isn't even applicable to what we're talking about. You're talking about choosing to accept lower pay for a position for greater schedule flexibility. What we're talking about is two new hires, a man and a woman, hired to do the same job at different rates of pay, same schedule, same benefits. That's the pay inequality we're talking about, when everything is the same besides the rate of pay between men and women. <br />
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You say a rape victim has "NO SAY in it AT ALL". I'm not disagreeing with you, what I'm pointing out is that some people blame rape victims, saying that she "chose" to wear revealing clothing or "chose" to flirt and basically asked for it. I bring it up because in the example of domestic violence, you're doing the same thing, you're blaming the victim for "choosing" to stay with an abusive partner, and you're ignoring all the reasons behind that "choice". <br />
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I, myself, don't have a lot of sympathy for women who choose to stay in these relationships because there are resources to help them now that weren't around decades ago. But the answer isn't to point the blame finger at the battered woman and shrug your shoulders. It is to empower and educate all women of these available resources for women that are stuck in these situations. We also should be able to prosecute abusers (if there's enough evidence) even if the victim is too scared to press charges.

There was a programme on BBC1 last week about unequal pay between women and men in England. The gap is actually widening, even though it's technically against the law. Since sex equality laws have been introduced onto the statute book, employers have sought to get round equal pay by wording the job descriptions slightly differently: furthermore, employers are not officially allowed to ask any female prospective employee whether she intends to have children. Do they take notice? Not usually.<br />
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Rape convictions are at an all time low in England. This tells you everything about the mores of England today. <br />

Concentrating on the women who "choose" to stay in abusive relationships makes as much sense as blaming rapes on women "asking for it". <br />
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And Sara is right re: the equal pay. The point you bring up about your chosen schedule and resulting pay has nothing to do with equal pay for equal work.

No, I cannot agree with all of that. Women may choose to remain in bad situations, but society allows these to happen by not prosecuting men who abuse as much as they should.<br />
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Again, as I said, your lower pay may be because you choose that schedule, but many other women are paid less simply because they are women. It is NOT the same.<br />
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This misogyny is so ingrained that what people ACCEPT is actually unacceptable.

lagenomai- <br />
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Making a blanket statement such as <br />
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"feminists of the day were a bunch of twisted ultra left winged faminazis, who hated all men" <br />
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is as absurd as me saying that "Rush Limbaugh listeners are racist Neo-con WASPS." Many are, but it probably doesn't feel good for someone like you to be lumped in with those folks on the bottom of the proverbial barrel.

Analyzer, I'm afraid the points you raise are actually peripheral to my arguments.<br />
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I am not saying that women and men cannot choose to work in jobs that pay less yet offer more flexibility, I am arguing that US Census Bureau statistics show that women are still being paid less than men to DO EXACTLY THE SAME JOBS! This is wrong... yet continues.<br />
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I am not saying that women and men cannot take jobs as strippers or topless or bathing-suited wait staff, that is certainly their right. I am saying that our media push the image of women as purely sex ob<x>jects, (look at the game shows! -- big breasted women holding signs... omg!), our teen magazines push sexuality on young girls, our advertising shows women as sex offerings to men... this is just wrong.<br />
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I am talking about domestic violence that is heavily against women, yet receives comparatively little media coverage, rape victims in some states who have been made to PAY for the rape kits that would prove their cases, and higher health premiums for women because we are women. This is insane!<br />
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This has become so ingrained in our society that we don't even see it anymore... That is wrong!

That was an enjoyable feminism debate. I don't know if I would call the people that snicker at female social issues to be misogynists. I think that people that truly hate women are rather rare. Humanity has this primal need for sex and it has instinctual attractions in order to foster healthy reproduction. The media has .5 seconds to get you to associate a product with desire. What better way to do it than to appeal to primal instincts. We can only change the small circle of life we are in. We have to live our life to our own ideals and hope to be an example. I think society changes with little steps, one person at a time. All we can do is try to live with intention.

Amen to this. I'm tired of being judged on looks and breast sizes. <br />
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I'm even dating a low-level misogynist. One that believes women are out to get him and screw him over. Don't ask why I'm still in this... heh.

I completley agree with you. In my English class, we have the most biggest misogynist pigs I have ever met. They say that every woman is a "*****" that they sleep with, and today they were picking out girls in the yearbook and saying "This one is so ugly" "This one is such a b****" It makes me sick just listening to them. And these guys act like they are so great, but they are not at all-_-

he he he... felt good!

Glad you liked it!

What a freaking a-hole! {{{HUGS}}} I feel for you, sister.

I share your views and put up with it on a daily basis. I workout long and hard, harder than some of the men in the gym. Some snicker and make jokes about my hubby being the B%^&* (that's what I heard the other day). Others tell me I ma too pretty to want to gain more muscle. I not talking bodybuilder here, I ma shooting for figure competitor. They constantly feel the need to compare themselves to me and get pissed when I can lift a heavier weight. Oh and then one had the nerve to say if I want to win a fitness competition I will need bigger boobs.

Whooo-hoooo... are you gunna stop at just kissing my *** or do have plans for that Astroglide your holding?

Just plain silly. What? Your comment, "bomb throwing twisted ultra left winged faminazis, who hated all men." Really. They had wings?<br />
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As I said before, using the term feminazis makes you non-rational in my book -- on this subject at least. Having a grudge against male-dominated society is NOT the same as hating all men. And personally, I find NOTHING wrong with being on the left-wing in politics. ITs' where I am and will remain and belong.<br />
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It's too bad you are so lovable. I could get a good resentment going otherwise. ;-)

"I think the feminism being an invention to allow the ugly access to the main stream is a very viable argument. When you were 10, the feminists of the day were a bunch of twisted ultra left winged faminazis, who hated all men and conscripted as many impressionable women as possible into their ranks.... even if it meant re-victimizing these poor women from past injustices"<br />
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Oh, really? You think you could POSSIBLY defend this comment? ALL feminists of 15 years ago were "twisted ultra left winged faminazis, who hated all men"? Oh, PLEASE! <br />
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First off, declaring "all" of a group to be anything is completely dumb. You know this too. Declaring these women "twisted" implies that you are the arbiter of who is and who is not sane. Personally, I think anyone who throws around the term "feminazi" is Twisted. How about that?<br />
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And do you seriously think that women WANT to be harassed? We want EQUAL PAY and EQUAL RECOGNITION. Keep you damn harassment. In fact, shove it.

Your comment was that every one of his comments about women empowers us. HOW does saying that women want to be sexually harassed (see 26 April, above) empower me? HOW?<br />
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How does referencing a 13 y/o girl as a dog empower me? HOW?<br />
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How does saying that feminism was invented for ugly women empower me? HOW?<br />
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I do not buy your line at all. It is part and parcel of blaming the victim for being the victim. It is part of the misogyny that pervades our society. Look again, not only at the ugly comments of Limbaugh, but at the comments I made in this post. The discrepancy in salaries, the ob<x>jectification of women, the lack of outrage at the crises in domestic violence. This is what I am sickened by. And I am sickened by those who think this is all right, or normal, or even acceptable.

I ob<x>ject to misogyny as much as the belittling portrayal of men in the media.<br />
Something's kinda up with those who commission those ads and programs.<br />
Limbaugh: There's a lot of stuff around his show I don't care much for as much as not opposed to seeing some ideological 'sacred cows' being challenged in talk shows.<br />
Debate is always healthy.

I totally agree with you. Dressing little girls up only encouage pedophiles. I tink that is why so many little and women are raped and killed each and every day. There should be a law against it, but there never will be. The mothers of these little girls with make-up and showing way too much skin in a sexy way should be totally ashamed of themselves. Yes, women are treated bad. I have some horrible stories of my own that are so disgusting and I have to live with them each and every day. Thank you for sharing this story.

I have found six different statements that I find offensive as a woman. You dismiss them all as "jokes" or that you agree with them or that they are not offensive.<br />
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You have made my point about institutional misogyny for me, and also made Vendie's point for him.<br />
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NONE of these empower women, which is what you claimed ALL of his comments about women do.<br />
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And how is making a sick joke about a 13 y/o ANYTHING but offensive?

lage... you stated, "I have never heard anything come out of his mouth that was not meant to empower women.... not one time."<br />
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If you think... by some bizarre stretch of imagination... that ANY of these above statements in ANY WAY AT ALL empower women... YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR EFFEN MIND.<br />
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And if you managed to listen to this raving lunatic for ten years without hearing these kind of statements, you need to take the cotton out of your ears and maybe try it in your mouth... <br />
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... because I can find more sickeningly misogynistic comments, and racist comments, and in general asinine comments by this douche bag very very easily.

"They're out there protesting what they actually wish would happen to them sometimes."<br />
— on women who protest against sexual harassment. The Rush Limbaugh Show, April 26, 2004

"Socks is the White House cat. But did you know there is also a White House dog?"<br />
— while holding up a photograph of 13-year-old Chelsea Clinton on his 1993 television show, Rush Limbaugh

"Feminism was established so as to allow unattractive women access to the mainstream of society."<br />
— The Rush Limbaugh Show, August 12, 2005

His list of 35 Undeniable Truths includes: "Women should not be allowed on juries where the accused is a stud."

January 10, 2006: LIMBAUGH: I'm not talking -- I know how many of you want to be sexually harassed -- that's not what I was asking. But, I mean, I -- if, if, if somebody wants to hire you to look good for whoever is the first to walk in the door every day, why not, if that's your asset?

Let's see -- Women aren't smart enough to feed ourselves?<br />
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LIMBAUGH: My cat -- here's how you can get fooled. My cat comes to me when she wants to be fed. I have learned this. I accept it for what it is. Many people in my position would think my cat's coming to me because she loves me. Well, she likes me, and she is attached, but she comes to me when she wants to be fed. And after I feed her -- guess what -- she's off to wherever she wants to be in the house, until the next time she gets hungry. She's smart enough to know she can't feed herself. She's actually a very smart cat. She gets loved. She gets adoration. She gets petted. She gets fed. And she doesn't have to do anything for it, which is why I say this cat's taught me more about women, than anything my whole life.

That is so false I almost threw up! Limbaugh is a TOTAL ANTI-WOMAN! Any one who could say that he is pro-woman is a victim of the society-wide misogyny I have been discussing here. It is so pervasive it is not even seen.<br />
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Limbaugh is a complete misogynist.

There are PLENTY of conservative people in the NY ad industry -- like I said before, it is a totally profit-driven, nakedly capitalistic system. Their only ideology is the fast buck.<br />
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As for the media, please do NOT tell me that you fall into the "all media are liberal" wing. That is sooo not true. Who owns the Wall Street Journal? Since when has Time-Life been liberal? The Fox Network?<br />
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Please.<br />
Kisses and hugs, lover, but still... please.

I would guess that the producers were afraid guys wouldn't go and see it if Neo were female.<br />
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Why didn't Rowling make Harry a girl? For that matter, why did she feel she had to hide the fact that she is a woman? Why couldn't she have written as Joanne Kathleen? Those are beautiful names!<br />
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Couldn't you see it now? Hermione Potter and the Chamber of Secrets... Harry could have been Harry Granger!

Yeah, why is that? It makes me want to write a cool story just so that I can make a cool female lead lol!<br />
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The females tend to be side characters or the "love interest." Why can't it be the other way round? If it is, it ends up a chick flick. Nothing against chick flicks, but why can't there be any decent female characters all around? Why did Neo have to be male ;P?

No, it's not just you, it's exactly what I am talking about! And the male characters are ALWAYS the central ones, too!

"And the companies market heavily to teens, a period in our lives when we do desperately want to "fit in"" - Yes, they're very cynical aren't they? It's not just teens now. Like you said, little girls not yet eight are now starting to be sexualised. It wasn't so long ago that a "toy pole dancing kit" was taken down from the shelf. I bet that wasn't before some of them had been sold...<br />
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Then there's the "pink invasion." You know, the way so many little girls nowadays seem to be obsessed with pink. It's more sinister than a colour - it's like the marketing is prepping them to become the perfect, pliable target market. <br />
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Funny that you should mention the lack of female characters - that's something that bothers me all the time! I've noticed it since young. Even when there are female characters, they tend to lack depth or are there as eye candy. There are those all too familiar characteristics as well (not necessarily at the same time :P): sensible and boring, a wuss, weak, annoying, nagging, crazy, name it. I know that male characters are also stereotyped, but at least there are more of them and more variety. The male protagonists tend to be more interesting on average. Or is that just me?

The idea that women are secondary to men is deeply ingrained into our culture, to the point where we don't even see it. <br />
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I thought of this the last time I was minding a friends children... they wanted to watch "Finding Nemo" again. Oh God... not again... So I was trying to suggest another cartoon for them... Madagascar? Ice Age? Penguins?<br />
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How many female characters are there in ANY of these???

To blame misogyny on "the left" is, to put it mildly, wildly off base. Pick any 'women's issue' you care to, and you can bet that the evil "left" will be fighting for it while the "right" faithfully fights against it.

It does make sense, musicspirit, at least to me. And the companies market heavily to teens, a period in our lives when we do desperately want to "fit in" and be part of, and crave the admiration of the other sex. Ugh!

I hate stereotyping and unfair discrimination, full stop. <br />
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"I must say that I believe misogyny is far more institutionalized than misandry." - I have to agree there. It is the most widespread and deep rooted. <br />
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Why are there things like this in this day and age? I have no idea. Perhaps it's because change is harder than staying the same. <br />
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"All I can think is that our world has a real problem accepting ourselves" (anardun)<br />
- yes, that's definitly a big part of it. Probably where much of it lies. Maybe stereotypes and expectations of behaviour come from the desire to fit in in the first place. By saying "females are primarily sex ob<x>jects" or "men find these things sexy" groups are created into which we can fit in. We buy into it because we want acceptance...then our money falls into the pockets of those industries that feed off it. Does what I'm saying make sense? I'm rambling here.<br />
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Anyway, they make me really, really sick too!

I didn't say advertising didn't work! LOL! Too bad, though.<br />
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And anyway... you and I are already in love with each other. <br />
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But it doesn't help your case any when you send me clips of Ingrid Bergman -- the sexiest, most beautiful woman who ever lived!!!! OMG!!!

This is a great story and I am sorry to say I have no answers for you. I feel It just stinks being a female sometimes-Great job tho!!!!!

Oh please, Lagenomai my love, the fact that many people in the arts have liberal/left views does NOT change that fact that they are still all dominated by the profit motive... the people who RUN these corporations are dominated by one and only one agenda -- more money. As long as they can get a cheap buck out of exploitation they will.

I share your views Sara, it's about time that we learned to except this. i certainly beleive that we should do more about stalkers and rapist. I hate those people i can't stand them.

The wage gap is closing, but that is only because men's wages are droping and women's wages are remaining level. I agree with everything you are saying.

I certainly ob<x>ject to messages and images that portray men as stupid simply because they are men. However, I must say that I believe misogyny is far more institutionalized than misandry. The statistics heavily support me.

I'd like to see your statistical sources, since I do sincerely doubt your statement is true.

I'd have to agree. But all i can think about is how much (as a man) misandry makes me ill and furious all at once, just as much as misogyny (or racism come to think about it...but that's a tangent). And misandry gets ignored and accepted even more than misogyny. All I can think is that our world has a real problem accepting ourselves. I mean, why can't it be as simple as it seems to just be all equal? Does it really have to be this hard? And why do we fight equality so much? It doesn't make us any less to allow someone who's different. At least, I don't think it does. So what's with all this childish war we wage over it? That's what i wonder about...

if you're not fighting for women's rights and basically whinging about misandry then you miss the point the OP was making. regardless of attitudes towards men they STILL have all human rights in this world while women have none. wake up already.