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Going For Surgery

i am new to this site, and i'm so glad i found other people to talk to....i have been living with this since i was 16. the dr kept telling me it was a boil. it would come under my armpits and i was miserable.  it would go awhile and swell up and hurt so bad i would cry. sometimes it would bust, but most of the time it would go back down. then it would come back bigger and more painful. i didn't have any insurance. the dr kept giving me anitibotics but they didn't help. in 2004 it was so bad, i thought my arm was going to rot off. and i couldn't stomach the smell. i was ashamed to go out or even get around anybody. i was afraid they would smell me or i would drain on their furniture. finally one night i went to the e.r and they lanced it and packed it. they thought i would need surgery with a skin graft so i went to lexington ky and saw  a plastic surgeon. he did my surgery and was wonderful. he did the surgery on both armpits. it hasn't come back on the right one, but my left one has given me a time. i have been lanced and packed so many times. my most recent surgery was sept 09. 2 weeks later it busted back open and started draining. so they open me back up and left it open to drain. i went to the infection control doctor last week and he gave me antibotics. i went back for a check up at the surgeons and he is taking me back to the operating room wed 11-25-09. i have had places come up in private areas and was ashamed to tell anyone. they would drain and then come back twice as big. it got so painful i didn't have a choice but say something. i have been looking for someone else who has this. i am so glad i'm not alone. it seems surgery is the only answer i have found for now, but i know somewhere out there someone has to know a better treatment option. and i am all ears. there is not a lot on the web about hidraditis.

lindy79 lindy79 31-35, F 96 Responses Nov 23, 2009

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I've had this crap for 25 years. I was too ashamed to see a Dr. about it when I was younger, so didn't have anyone really look at it until almost 15 years after getting it. Dr. after Dr. having no clue about this awful stuff. I'm stage 3 and only have it in the groin area which is weird because the armpit seems more common. Thankfully, I have never had an issue there. I want surgery to remove it, but it's so bad, I'm afraid I will have NOTHING left in that area after removing it. I've tried everything, even the strongest antibiotics. NOTHING works and they area always active. I'm deeply depressed and not a single friend or family members knows about it because I'm too ashamed to talk about it. Another reason I fear surgery. Because then they will find out. I don't know what to do.

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Please listen. ....I know theres alot of you scared out there. My fiance has been dealing with it for 6 years. I can see the pain he goes through. It has gotten so severe that he was unable to work. He was able to get SSD social security disability 2 years ago....once you r on SSD for 1 year you qualify for medicare which is covered for you to see a plastic surgeon for you to do the surgery. He had 3 surgerys so far with about 4-6 wks healing time underarms, 8-10wks between groin and thighs. Do not be scared if the doctor wants to leave it open and let it heal from the inside out. Its better that way. Very time consuming you need help from family and friends for dressing changes but you can do it. My heart goes out to all.of you. Good luck hope this helps.

Also they only keep you in the hospital.for one day for observation And than you can go home

I have a question. I am going to see a plastic surgeon on Monday about having the surgery under both of my arms. How long does healing take? How Long will I be out of work?

Hi. My name is Allison. I posted on here back in January 2014. I just had the surgery under both of my arms 3 days ago. So far so good. I didn't get a skin graft again to avoid additional scarring. My doctor was able to use stitches in some areas so it will not impair my range of motion when it heals. I am still 100% free of any lesions on my inner thighs from the 1st surgery. I was told for many years there was nothing that could be done, wrong. Get second, third, fourth opinions because the surgery prevents them from coming back. It is extensive which is why most dermatologists shy away from making the recommendation. I am glad I did the surgery because now I will never get them on my thighs or arms again. Just wish I had done it when the area wasn't so big. Good luck everyone.

Hi, i'm Anna and age 19 and also diagnosed with HS and been having it since I was in 8th grade . For 6 years now :( and still have it. I'm at stage 3 and its horrible just like the rest of you guys I have the same exact experience as you guys and I understand its the worse feeling ever. But i'd like to know where you can get a major surgery in California, if you guys know any location here. So far I heard San Diego specialize in our condition and there's a HS institue in Ohio.

And I have it on both arms :(

Hi Lindy, Im in your same shoes. I currently have it on both armpits. Im constantly in pain, I can't shave, I can't wear deodorant, it is horrible. Ive read that turmeric helps a lot. So i bought the capsules they sell at Wholefoods. So far the pain has gone down, but i still cannot lift my arms completely up. A couple months ago I had a ball under my armpit, it was so painful and grew larger everyday till it was the size of a golfball. I immediately put a heating pad on it constantly and let hot water run on it in the shower, about 3-4 days later, maybe a week, it popped on its own. I was ok for a week or two until the bastard came back. I haven't been wanting to go out, nor exercise, nor go swimming….this condition really takes a toll on you emotionally. The smell is awful, sometimes my bf can smell it from being a few feet away…its so embarrassing. So I would recommend for anyone with this to try turmeric capsules (taken daily), an antibiotic called "doxyclicin" something like that that treats bacterial infections, and just make an appt with your doctor to have it surgically removed. it will keep coming back and trust me you do not want to live with this for months, yet alone years. Good luck.

Hi I was wondering how long was the healing process and after the surgery did you have to stay any days in the hospital??? I have so much scarred tissue under both armpit and currently have 3 cysts at the same time!!!! I cant do anything! I have to get the surgery under both arms and I am really freaked out

I currently just had the surgery in my left armpit. Omg it was not what I expected. It hurts bad. Very painful. I wish I could post a picture. I opted to have the skin graft because the wound was so wide, there was no way of closing it any other way. I was able to go home the day after surgery. My skin graft surgery will be in a week or two and I will be In the hospital a couple days longer and/or up to a week. I had a flare up with two cyst at the same time before surgery. Extremely painful. When they did the surgery they had found out that another cyst was brewing as well so when they cut out my skin snd tissue, they got that one too. After surgery is painful. The dressing changes are the worst but necessary. Omg it hurts. But you can ask for an arm sling. It helps take the pressure off your armpit big time. Im currently going through all this as I type this because my surgery was last Monday. But the pain is a little less this week but still painful. You will be ok. Just keep thinking about the end results will be worth it. Thats what I do to keep myself going. No more cyst in that area once everything is healed. Make sure you move your arm around and do the physical therapy exercise so your arm doesn't stiffen up cuz the doctors can't do anything once its stiff or stuck. Take all meds prescribed. If you have any questions, im here. Good luck and you are in my prayers

I have it currently I'm 16 and just go the surgery under my right arm and I'm worried cause my stitches are draining weird goo...

Hi I was wondering how long was the healing process and after the surgery did you have to stay any days in the hospital??? I have so much scarred tissue under both armpit and currently have 3 cysts at the same time!!!! I cant do anything! I have to get the surgery under both arms and I am really freaked out

I'm a 19 year old male, and have had HS for 2 years. It started out as a Cyst on my tailbone. It has gotten worse, an abscess on thighs, both sides. Now i have one on the left side of my scrotum. Im worried its going to affect my testicle. I have a fiance, and 2 year old daughter, and im always worrying she will leave me. I see the urologist tomorrow, and i want to mention Surgery to him. Im a little overweight, and and a smoker. Im working on quitting, and loosing weight. I work making Air Duct for an hvac company, and have called of a lot recently, due to painful walking. Im gonna end up loosing my job. Im not here, for pity though. I was doing some investigating, and found a blog titled, "I beat HS." It went on explaining that she beat HS through T-cell therapy. I read about it, and i cant figure out if its a scam or not. I e-mailed the blogger, and got a response back later on that day. Im going to post the link and see what you guys think. I really want to try it, but its about $150.00 for 5 courses... which is a 130 days. Anyways, the company is out of BC, Canada. They believe it has a lot to do with Gluten. Im rambling now, But i will post link. Good luck to all,<br />
<br />

Hi. I just had the wide excision surgery on both of my inner thighs and inguinal region. I have been suffering with HS for the past 7 years. Throughout this time I've done all the options most of you suggested and the surgery was my last option to prevent it for good. It's only been 4 days since my surgery, I opted to not have a skin graft to avoid further scarring and complications. I will say its not easy and certainly something that needs to be managed daily with wound care specialists, but in the end I pray it's gone. If everything goes well I plan on getting the surgery under my arms as well. My plastic surgeon said that would be less extensive and easier to care for. I researched my surgeon and found him to specialize in this type of surgery with a high success rate for permanent removal. My suggestion for those who have severe/recurring HS is to do the surgery before it gets too bad. Your recovery will be longer the bigger the section being removed. Good luck to everyone on finding an option that works for you.

which surgeon did you go to? does he have a website?

Hi. I live in Florida so not sure if it would be local for u. Best thing to do is work with ur dermatologist and see if they have partners in plastic surgery. It was west coast dermatology that I used, Dr Rodriguez. My surgery has been a success thus far. Barely a scar and the best part is I've had 0 reoccurrences...4 months counting. I'm doing my arms in the summer and I was told the only difference was that I may need physical therapy to ensure range of motion stays throughout the healing process. Good luck and I'm a firm believer in the surgery versus medications now for sure.

Hi I was wondering how long was the healing process and after the surgery did you have to stay any days in the hospital??? I have so much scarred tissue under both armpit and currently have 3 cysts at the same time!!!! I cant do anything! I have to get the surgery under both arms and I am really freaked out

I haven't done my arms yet, but I was told the healing process can be different based on where u get it. When I had my inner thighs done it took about 8 weeks for it to completely close. I opted to let it heal from the inside out to avoid another scar from a skin graft, so if u have a graft it could be less time. Currently I still apply lotions to prevent the dark scarring, something my doctor recommended and has tremendously reduced the size and color of my scar. I also opted for a day surgery with home health care for roughly 4 weeks. This was good for me because I felt more comfortable being in my own bed. My doctor was impressed with how fast I healed. My recommendation is to eat lots of protein, take vitamin c like 3 times a day, and avoid unnecessary movements to let ur body heal faster. Still haven't had any outbreaks where I had my surgery 😄😄

I have had HS since I was 12, so that's around 13 years. It's gotten so bad that I am thinking of getting surgery. I do live in Florida and I would really like to know more about your experiences with Dr. Rodriguez and information about his office. I am still looking for a Doctor have the surgery with, and I am really nervous about just picking one without knowing if it worked for their past patients. If you dont mind? It would be so helpful.

No problem. I went to Charles Rodriguez in venice fl. I had my arms done in July of this year and all is well. No reoccurrences in either areas. I'm grateful to have found someone that took his time to not only remove the areas of concern, but make it something I can live with cosmetically speaking as well. Very happy with my decision to do the surgery.

Especially since when I was on medications I didn't go 1 week without getting an out break. Very happy and certainly more confident.

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I have recently had the surgery performed on my left groin area. My doctor removed all the sweat glands in an area about 3"x3". Prior to the surgery, I had been suffering continuous boils for almost 3 yrs. Since the left side surgery, I have had no recurrences on either side. I am scheduled for the right side surgery in a month and am so happy to have it scheduled. The approach of removing all the sweat glands seems to be the best approach. I would not think removing only active HS sweat glands would prevent other glands from becoming inflamed in the future. I am very hopeful that this life-long affliction may be past me.

Hello my name is Kayla and i am 18 years old. I have only had HS for only three years and it just keeps getting worse. It first started out as small bumps and it did not really hurt as much. As the year went by it got harder for me to wear certain clothes and shave. Finally this past year I started to get the smelly puss come out of the. The worst part in that I am still in high school and I have to wear a white uniform shirt and the puss gets all over my shirts. For the past couple of months I have been taking bactrim and Prednisone. Those have been helping but I still have them. I am thinking about asking if I can get my skin graft surgery. What do you guys think should I stay on the MEDS or get the surgery.

meds will only work for so long they will stop working and the sugary is the only permeant option

This comment is for the mother of the two children with HS. last POST Feb. I'm a mother also with a 15 yr daughter with HS. We also have been dealing with this for past 2 yrs. She is scheduled for the same intense surgery Oct 2nd. She more of a trooper than her mother, LOL :). My only question is prognosis afterwards because of my daughter being an athlete. Basketball season is coming and she plays golf in school as well. How is the recovery process for people who use their arms a lot?

I had the sugary and the arm pit is the most pain full of all the places i had all the places done do not expect to do any sport or excise for 3 months you can't even move your arm for 1 month but its worth it

can you work?

Hi I was wondering how long was the healing process and after the surgery did you have to stay any days in the hospital??? I have so much scarred tissue under both armpit and currently have 3 cysts at the same time!!!! I cant do anything! I have to get the surgery under both arms and I am really freaked out

wow you cant move your arm for a month!! I have a 6 month old and 3 year old and as you can imagine I need to move my arms!! lol but did you need anyone to come move in with you to help since you couldn't move your arm??

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Hi all, I am an 18 year old stage 3 hs sufferer. I have had this condition from approx age 12. It has worsened as I have got older, doctors have not done anywhere near enough to prevent it from getting this bad. I was only diagnosed with it last year! One doctor told me what it was then told me she couldn't do anything for me and sent me on my way. As a 17 year old girl who has just beared her leaking, swollen scarred underarms and thighs to a stranger I was left devastated. I have since then seen another doctor who has given me some tablets to prevent the lumps coming back. They still do come back every now and then but I am in a lot less pain, I feel like I can lead a normal life, be more active and haven't used a bandage in a couple of months! I have stopped smoking which i believe has helped alot and i am losing weight which I know will help. I have a very supportive boyfriend who knows what I have been going through, and I am very blessed to have him. This condition has wrecked my selfesteem and made me hate myself but I am determined to get back my confidence and one day I will feel normal again.

I am a 24 yr old male and I to am a stage 3 HS sufferer. I experienced my very first boil at the age of 13 in my sacrum area, after I received treatment for that I was clear up until I was actually diagnosed in 2007 once I turned 18. Since then I've been through numerous invasive surgeries and procedures, skin grafts and even had a pic line inserted for administration of iv antibiotics at home in both of my armpits the groin and my backside. For me it seems like nothing at all is working no antibiotics no surgery or anything. I had one successful operation and that was under the right armpit all the other areas are still painfully inflammed and constantly draining and itches to the point its literally driving me insane. Since I became diagnosed with this disease its made my life a total hell, I'm forced to wear mesh undies so that I can hold gauzes and bandaging in place for the draining. Even though I dont get that scent of death from them anymore, its still a messed up depressing place to be in. I cant work, I'm scared to attend an actual building for school so I'm doing it online, but my life has taken a dramatic turn and I guess this disease isnt important enough for Drs to try to work hard enough to find a cure. I commend those of you who are taking this like a champ but I just cant help but to think about me not having kids or even being intimate with another because of scars bruising and draining. I feel like I am cursed and dont ever think I can get use to living like this even though its been 6 yrs now. I just want this to be over!

you need a skin graph sugary is a major sugary but i was like you now i had the sugary and i don't have to deal with it anymore

How was the surgery ?

I have a possibly stupid question....what doctor does the surgery? Would I go to a dermatologist? My family doc? I have been to at least five and no one has mentioned surgery. Thinking this might be my best option. I have had this now going on 20 years and it is just getting progressively worse. :( thanks so much.

a plastic sugernt will have to do it

hi all I have suffered this since the age of 16 im 26 now and believe me I feel for everyone on here suffering this illness I have been back and forth to my dr only to be told it must be in my blood and I have to cope with it I have took god only knows how many antibiotics for it I think my body is immune to them now I have tried all antibacterial creams soaps etc. etc. and still nothing works I like everyone here got told they were just boils I have suffered them under my arms the base of my back and also on my thighs and my private area I am scarred and its embarrassing I cant wear summer vest tops short shorts or a swimsuit because im embarrassed and even after 5 years of being with my partner cant bring myself to let him see the affected areas especially on my private but I am lucky to have him and know deep down it doesn't bother him its just me who has the problem but yesterday I went to my doctors and explained I was sick of it and there had to be a medical term to what was wrong with me and it must of been my lucky day because I saw a new dr and she explained all about hidradenitis suppurativa and the treatment they could try me with first is oral medication so iyl share with the people who don't know much information on it 1.topical anti-acne antibiotic and benzoyl peroxide 2.short courses of antibiotic more so called flucloxacillin 3.for women only sometimes the contraceptive pill could work but personally I have tried it and been on it for over a year and hasn't worked for me 4.roaccutane my mum who also suffers this was offered this but u have to be a perfect candidate as there are lots of side affects and was in the end refused as she was hyper to start with and would of made her worse and could make her depressed and suicidal 5.corticosteroid tablets (steroids) also side affects on long term use so anyone thinking of taking such things make sure it is prescribed by a doctor the last is surgical treatment the tablets I have mentioned are not a method for me as I have no kids and plan to and also in order for me to get the medication I would have to go private as there expensive but for people who don't like surgery its more options to talk to with your dr so I think im opting for the op I just wanted to say to everyone out there who suffer this I feel for you and hope you all get it sorted and I also hope my information has helped a little also excessive gym work outs can cause the boils ware loose fitting cotton clothing keep area clean with antibacterial soaps and washes avoid shaving affected area avoid using deodorants if one appears use a hot flannel as hot as u can stand to draw the boil to a point and the boil bursts try to minimise heat exposure this will mean avoid sitting next to any fire places or anything that could make u sweat hope all helps and gd luck to all x

soo just wondering has any one had surgery on their private??? and if so how did that go

i just had the sugary its really not bad at all the arm pit is the most painful but i do recommend sugary

I also have HS. I'm 39 and for twenty years it went undiagnosed from my doctors until the perineal one was so bad I couldnt take the pain. Both armpits have been lanced several times and I also had surgery on a polynidol cyst that didn't work.

The problem in my perineum got to the point where 3 fistulas had formed, two being in my scrotum. My urologist said surgery is the only option. So, I had the surgery three days ago and hoping this does it for that part of my body. Surgery was difficult and there is a lot of discomfort. Just had the 8" drainage tube and packing removed and I feel a little better but the site of the incision is still painful.

I feel for the rest of you dealing with this, it's a painful and embarrassing disease.

I have h.s. also. I developed it in my later adult years; 37 years old. At first it started as one single knot under my breast i fold one night while showing. Eventually, it got bigger and stared to hurt...well you know the pattern it takes. Throughout time, these knots and lumps grew bigger, developed in more locations, lasted longer and hurt more. For two years, this cycle continued and my doctor lanced and drained. Emotionally, physically and psychologically it took a toll on me and when I was 39, my doctor found a general surgeon to remove my glands one at a time so i would never need skin graphs. I had surgery over the next three years. Partial glands were removed from under my left and right arms pits, under right and left breast and right groin. At 42 years old, i can say that i was more free of them then not. I still have armpit odor under my right pitso when use deodorant, I have a small flare up but after washing very quickly with antibacterial soap it disappears. My surgeon told me if i ever had flare ups to come in, immediately, without an appt so i can schedule surgery right away. That was my major comfort.

I have had both armpits grafted in2011 and to this day I have not had a problem there, but a couple of months after my arms were done I started getting them in my groin area, both sides, I had local injections into groin area to drain them but keep coming back, then in Nov 2012 I was in hospital for 2 wks and had both sides of groin areas grafted, one part is still causing problems and was told by my surgeon that it looks like I will need another graft done as a bit at my private area needs to be taken away now. I have suffered with this disease since 2001, a couple of months after I had my daughter.

Hi, I have had hs for about a year now n I already had surgery on both of my armpits but I do have lots of problems in my groin area and its really painful as you should know. So now I am seeing my doctor because I am planning on getting surgery on my groin area so I wanted to know more detailed how that surgery was for you because im really worried about it

After the surgery you will much better then you did before surgery. I'm not sure what else to tell you to expect before our docs are different our bodies are different. After my groin surg, i had stitches for about 3 weeks. After they were removed, I can say that my groin issues were/are very small.

Wow!! For years I thought that I was the only one suffering in excruciating pain and embarrassment. My story started when I was 11 years old, and the cysts relatively small about the size of large grapes started coming up under my arms and in my groin area. I'd been to numerous doctors and dermatologists and been told that it was just a plain infection or that I was just dirty and needed to bathe more often! And I usually showered at least twice a day! I was crushed and humiliated! And after the birth of my kids it only got worse! Then it showed up under my breasts! I've had the removal surgeries under my arms and all the antibiotics you could think of. Nothing worked, not even the surgery! And even as I try to sit here crying cuz I have a group of cysts on the back of my leg(thigh) thats as big as a soft ball! I've even done the Turmeric pills. So if anyone has any ideas, please help!!


The soap you are referring to, is known as Hibiclens (the antiseptic skin cleanser is the generic). This is wonderful stuff. So glad you have discovered it. It has helped me with odor as well. It also helps clear mine up. I am also a Stage III.

yeah the hibiclens didn't really work for me I love the generic tho

Curcumin C3 Complex (aka Turmeric) is what's stopped mine from smelling. 500 mg in the morning and 500 mg at night. If one brand doesn't work, try another and another another because it really does help. If 1k a day isn't cutting it go to 2k a day. You can gradually go to 4k a day but I wouldn't recommend any higher. Just because one brand doesn't work for you doesn't mean you should throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's really amazing stuff, ya just gotta keep at it till you find one that's right for you. Good luck.

Had no idea this was a real acknowledged sicknesses. Thought is was in grown Hairs. The pain was excruciating. Mine started 10 years ago. I never would have them during Dr visits n hate going to Dr otherwise. When they started to come two and 3 at a time in the groin area under both arms they became of terrible worry.I went to the Dr and he told me it wad bad he recommended Laser surgery to destroy the hair follicle n sweat gland. I WA also going to have surgery to repair a hernia. It was a week away. He gave me Keflex n munition ointment. It alleviated the pain n brought down the swelling of approaching ones. It also attacked the open one. The surgery was painless. I'm only on the 2 ND day but my underarm had serious craters in it. I will try to report back in a few days but of it Sps the boils in completely satisfied.

Hi I have delt with it for seven years until finally my pcp told me I needed surgery. The surgent looked at my arms and said he would do it. So my surgery was very intense he removed everything so it would not come back. I'm happy so far.

Hi I have the same thing and may need surgery my doctor has given me cream to unclog my pores but i don't think it's working my fear is going to surgery. I think they are going to put tubes in my mouth down my throat.I am very scare. Can you tell me how was the surgery please. I need to know because it's holding me back.

Nanapooh my surgery was a week ago it was not that bad. They expected me to be in a lot of pain however I wasn't. they did give me pain medicine which helped but I'm still healing but I think the surgery is worth it if it never comes back.

So, I saw this story and had to respond. My 15 year old son has this, and my 30 year old daughter does too. Both of them had successful surgeries and have recommended the surgery over antibiotics. My son is recovering from his surgery he just had under his left armpit last Monday, so 6 days ago. He is doing terrific! The surgeon said the trick to a successful surgery is to make sure they remove the whole abcess, surrounding boil and infection, infected follicle and all of the "tracts", or tunnels that come from the bacteria trying to tunnel out under the skin, which leaves scar tissue and the feeling of webbing or cords under the skin. His was quite extensive, and he struggled for almost 6 months taking antibiotics, having it incised and drained, you name it we tried it. His surgery involved putting him to sleep, it was a hospital thing not office visit. He had an elliptical incision that removed the skin containing the boil, and the surrounding skin around and underneath the abcessed follicle. Then he made another incision about 2-3 inches up from the first one, where he removed the tracts that were attached to the first area under his skin. His armpit had an actual deep dimple before surgery, and he talked about a "pulling" sensation when he lifted his arm. Then, a third small incision was made, approx. 3 inches from the first one, and they sewed in a drain that he then threaded up under the skin into the abcessed area and coming out of his side about 3 inches. He ended up with about 16 staples and the sutures from the drain. The whole thing is then covered with gauze and taped in place. We saw the surgeon Thursday (3 days ago now) and he is healing beautifully. His staples and the drain will need to stay in for another 2-3 weeks per the doctor, but he has had very little (almost none) post-surgical pain and very little discomfort. The boil he had before was more painful! He is very glad he had the surgery, and I guess time will tell if it comes back. We have been advised also by the surgeon to avoid waxy antiperspirants, so he is now using a deodorant-only spray so it doesn't clog his pores again. The only risk factor he has is he is an athlete, he isn't overweight and doesn't smoke. My daughter's surgery was in her tailbone area btw. This has to be hereditary, as my brother also had this.

Did your son have the entire armpit area removed? Or just a certain area in the armpit?

I suffer from hidaditis also, I have it around my groin. I been suffering with this for 4 years and it is very painful.. I have seen many skin doctors and know I might be going in for surgery I pray this helps me..

I am a 16 year old girl and i have been suffering with HS for around three years and it took right up to September of last year to have an actual diagnosis from the doctors. I have been on antibiotics since then and they are not working yet my doctor seems to think that remaining on them is the best option. I have another appointment in March an my doctor told me that if my tablets aren't working by then she will discuss surgery with me. For people who have chosen surgery, would you suggest it? does it help? how long is the recovery? approximately how long should i be without another growth for?