The Impossibility Of Sinning...

I have a problem with sins, seven or more, deadly or not.
First of all, since god is claimed to be all-forgiving. If he indeed is, then there's no need for a hell or atonement for our so-called sins.
Also because of the fact that god is all-knowing and a thing called pre-destiny.
Okay, so christians always argument that god gave Humans free will. So what?
Either we don't have free will and all we do is pre-determined with the result we cannot sin since god made us do the things we do, or, we have free will and cannot sin because god has no business with what we do since he gave us free will, i.e. freedom of choice.
You can't give someone freedom of choice and then punish that person for carrying out that freedom, because that smells a lot like having the freedom of doing what god wants, not what we want.
So, again, Humans are in the impossibility to sin, because it's either god's will or our own god-given right of choice without god having the right to interfere, let alone judge.
This freedom of choice thing also has another dire consequence, and that is that god is no longer all-knowing. Because, all-knowing means pre-determined: our choices have been made by god when he laid out the itinerary of our life. If and when god gave us freedom of choice -even within a limited set of rules- he can no longer "predict" what we're gonna do. If he still knows, well, then that means our freedom of choice is a laugh. Or rather, a lie.
Knowing god, it probably is too. Which makes us his puppets and we are no sinners but the victim of a fool who likes to indulge himself in a spot of cosmic puppet-play.
"Hahaaa, charade you are..." to quote Pink Floyd.
jimmyrudyjump jimmyrudyjump
56-60, M
42 Responses May 25, 2011

Ahhh, but you see my friend God *** doesn't *** know what you're going to do in the future :)<br />
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He doesn't know, not because he does not have the ability to know, but because he chooses not to know. Maybe some examples will help clarify what I mean. <br />
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At Genesis 11:5-8, for instance, God is described as directing his attention earthward, surveying the situation at Babel, and, at that time, determining the action to be taken to break up the unrighteous project there. After wickedness developed at Sodom and Gomorrah, Jehovah advised Abraham of his decision to investigate (by means of his angels) to “see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it.” (Genesis 18:20-22; 19:1) God spoke of ‘becoming acquainted with Abraham,’ and after Abraham went to the point of attempting to sacrifice Isaac, Jehovah said, “For now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”—Genesis 18:19; 22:11, 12; compare Nehemiah 9:7, 8; Galatians 4:9.<br />
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Look at it like this. The owner of a radio can listen to the world news. But the fact that he can listen to a certain station does not mean that he does. He must first turn on the radio and then select the station. Likewise, Jehovah has the ability to foreknow events, but the Bible shows that he makes selective and discretionary use of that ability, with due regard for the free will with which he has endowed his human creation. —Compare Genesis 22:12; 18:20, 21.

If God made us in our image, then how come we are considered sinners unworthy of his forgiveness if it weren't for Jesus?<br />
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Why did somebody have to die in order for God to be willing to forgive?<br />
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What is "salvation" from, hell?<br />
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Why are so many Christians obsessed with where you go after you die? Isn't that selfish to think: What's in it for me? And not be concerned with your daily life on Earth and how to treat others?<br />
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If Jesus is the only way to God, then what happened to all the Jewish souls from the concentration camps? Weren't their lives already a living hell enough to have to face a Christian belief they are without God (or God will forsake them) because they rejected Jesus as a messiah?

Christians teach "forgive". Jesus taught "Judge not". How is it necessary to forgive or be forgiven if you haven't been judged?<br />
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I recently began a rational discourse with myself about the Sermon on the Mount, and it became obvious to me that either Paul or Constantine wrote it. The message changed dramatically at one point and the theme went from "if you want to receive anger, be angry towards others" to "if you are angry at a brother without cause", you may be angry.<br />
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I ask - what is cause? If you are doing what Jesus said - treat others as you want to be treated - so that you will receive in like measure what you have given - what cause could there ever be? Unless you are angry with yourself for failing to live up to Jesus' standards and have projected that cause onto a brother, there can be no cause. So - the solution is not to forgive one's self. The solution is to stop judging self. Trust the greater self to take care of you and you will be taken care of. <br />
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Humankind has the ability to end war and all social ills today - if only humans would learn about the Unified Field - recently discovered and supported by nearly 1,000 studies. If humans want to understand how a unified field exists, quantum mechanics explains it nicely. If you want to use an approach appropriate for uneducated people who lived 2,000 years ago, you could say that the kingdom of heaven is within - as Jesus did.<br />
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How I wish that I could help christians see beyond their fears, but how is that possible when they are afraid to think rationally, and they call nonsense "logic".

Personally I feel that Christianity over the years has, whether purposefully (for power gain) or accidentally (through re-telling and re-translation) lost the original ideas of sin, forgiveness, hell and free will.<br />
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I personally do believe in free will and that we move of our own volition. So I view the situation this way: Since the universe is finite by its very nature, things can be either one way or the other., not both, and therefore cannot suit everybody. Therefore if we are to move through it of our own volition, we need to make our own choices. <br />
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Sins, I believe, are things we do, say etc. that in some way bring us away from acting with love (which for me I believe to be the beginning, end and in-between of the message of God), and that hurt other people. A good example is theft of a car. You can't both have the car, because it is a finite universe and things can either be one way or another. If you let the car be, you are not hurting anyone. Take the car and you are most likely hurting someone by making life harder for them. Maybe they can't get to work in time without it and lose their job. Or maybe they can't pick up their children, in which case the sin has hurt both the owner of the car and their family. Personally I don't believe in the seven deadly sins or what have you. Maybe it was a sort of idea made up by humans to try and simplify religion a bit, or to scare people into following the religion. I believe a sin is anything that hurts other people and is therefore not reflective of the love of God. <br />
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Why would that be a sin? As you say, if it is our God-given right to move freely through the world, why should we be punished for it? This brings me to my own personal take on hell. Hell, I think, is a 'place' where God is Not. I believe that since things like God and hell are such 'other' concepts from anything else that we know in this universe, the terms such as 'burning' 'lake of fire' 'cast into' are metaphors. They describe the feelings, rather than the actual 'place'. I would think that if we are made in the image of God, with all our emotions and functions and perceptions deriving from God's image, and are suppoed to return to God at the end, then to end up in a place where God is not would be hellish in itself. It would negate everything we WERE. <br />
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As for going to hell, I do not believe we get there by God casting us into there as a punishment. I actually think it's more like, if we are acting like people of God (whether we believe or not), and/or want to be in the presence of God, we will already be trying to act with love and compassion, and trying not to hurt each other or put each other at risk. But then I think there will also be some people who detest the idea of God with a passion, who are so angry that they refuse to entertain the notion of God (I'm not saying everyone who refuses to entertain the notion of God does so because they are angry, by any means). And even if they believe(d) in God they would hate to be in his presence and would not want to 'hear' his message. They would passionately wish God away from them (which I believe to be the essence of any curse - to wish a thing away from one's self in the most final way). Unless they are already in hell, the only 'place' they can go to where God is away from them is hell, because it's the only 'place' where God is not. And we realise it's hellish. I don't believe it is impossible to get out of hell. I just think the people who might end up in hell would be so determined not to be in the presence of God - to find another 'place' where God is not, but that is not hellish - a place that doesn't exist - that they block the way out without anyone having to help them. Since sin drives us away from acting with love - God's love, the only 'place' it can therefore logically drive us towards is hell.<br />
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And that's why I believe it is possible to end up in hell by refusing to be in the presence of God. Not because of being are sent there, but because of refusing to be anywhere where God and God's love is. <br />
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As for where forgiveness fits in: I believe forgiveness, by its very nature, requires a forgiver, and a forgivee. I believe God is the forgiver, and is always willing to forgive. But forgiveness needs to be accepted by the forgivee, and the forgivee needs to therefore acknowledge they have sinned - i.e. done something that is not reflective of love, that has hurt a person or people. They'd be unlikely to accept forgiveness and ownership for something they did not do, after all. And a person who wishes God away from themselves, or themselves away from God, I would think, is hardly in a position to accept his forgiveness if they cannot even tolerate his presence. This is why I think unforgiven sins and people ending up in hell are linked.

I would imagine that if the god of the Bible existed, I honestly do not think Heaven would be all that great. Heaven is just his own little kingdom where angels worship him all the time. I'll bet if he was the true god, even people who had died on Earth and gone to Heaven, might get kicked out for not worshiping him well enough. "Well, my 2 hours in Heaven were short lived and not quite as pleasant as I expected." And after reaching Hell, "God you sick bastard! You should be here and not me!" <br />
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Obviously Christians can't truly give a response that will make any sense. I struggled with the contradictions of the Bible for a long time while I still was a Christian. Praying got me nowhere, which is no surprise. I researched as much as I could on the matter and came to the conclusion that he is a false god, completely made by people. I also think that if this god was real, then he is the one who truly would be deserving of Hell, since he would have been the one with a sick enough of a mind to make it in the first place!

I believe Jesus was a radical that was full of love and compassion. Those in power hated him and killed him. Afterwords they turn tragedy into a miracle. Add alittle mythology borrowed from other ancient myths(Wittoba the crucified incarnation of krishna that predated christianity.) A new religion ba<x>sed on fear instead of the brotherly love and kingdom of god that jesus was all about.

I find it odd that people still speak about god's love, as if 2000 years of terror and murdering in his name never happened...<br />
On the contrary, when a guy called Lucifer rebels against this god's tyrrany, he's being expelled and his name forever tarnished as evil, while in reality it is god who is evil.

God hasn't just said "I forgive sin" - man would sin all the more!<br />
He's given something better than sin - His Spirit, his nature. <br />
I and many friends have received this and found a new life, full of answers, fulfilling purpose, ba<x>sed on God's love & peace that we never knew before. Addictions & other bad behavious go, not because we are more moral or trying harder.<br />
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"Sin" is falling short of that, people 2000 years ago realised:<br />
"all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" - Romans 3:23<br />
Paul the apostle tried really hard to stop sinning but realised that it's not about trying your best, it's about having faith in God to *do* what we can't by us receiving His Spirit and living the new Life that follows.<br />
He details his struggle and realisation in Romans 7 & 8.<br />
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Jesus explained the same thing saying we need to be "born again" (John 3:6-8). The experience is detailed in Acts 2:4, 33; 1 Corinthians 2:9, 11; 14:2, 4..

Completely aside from all the other comments [ my apologies for late entrance]<br />
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I think religion, specifically/especially structured religion, is for the sake of the people.<br />
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A very dear friend of mine, also an Atheist I might add, told me that, when I asked him why he was an Atheist.<br />
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Some people need to be in essence "told" what to do. <br />
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Theres no doubt it may be .."iffy" But, it's for the people, by the people.<br />
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Religion isn't religion anymore. It's an idea and a concept, just like everything else.<br />
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Just putting in two cents.<br />
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P.s I don't believe in sin, I believe in feeling bad for doing something considered against certain standards, but not Sin. That's a "church" word. But it makes a fun concept for stories.

"since we became aware of "good" and "evil" AGAINST god's will". Was it truly against God's will? The all-knowing God should have known that Adam and Eve would take the forbidden fruit. So why did he put the fruit there? To test Adam and Eve? What is there to test when you know the outcome?<br />
"God created us to worship him." The more I think about this one the more I wonder why God created us. Why would He want to be worshipped? God is supposedly perfect yet He wants to be worshipped, He wants revenge, He wants punishment, He destroys, He is jealous, He is demanding, He is murderous... So why should we workship an imperfect God? If religious people were to emulate God's attributes then we would have a bunch of them running around killing other for beleiving in the "wrong" God, or destroying entire towns and villages because one in the village did or said something against God or other forsaken reasons. OOOPS we already have those, they're called fanactics, extremists and terrorists!<br />
"It is our mission on the earth to return to our homeland paradise by disobeying the devil who removed us out of it and so he (the devil) deserved the eternal damnation and curse of God! See how much God loves us by what He did to our Only real enemy due to envy and jealousness!" Why did God create Satan? To test us again. Why would God test our faith since He already knows who will pass and who will fail? If God truly loved us and wanted the best for us, then He would not be endlessly and pointlessly testing us by allowing Satan to tempt us and lead us astray. God wants good AND evil and so by extension, He wants some humans to fail and be evil so they can be punished. God created man in His image, therefore we are both good AND evil. So why should we be punished for doing evil when God Himself created evil? All arguments we can come up with about the existence of God will point to an imperfect God. I submit that since the God we are asked to worship is imperfect, He cannot be God and therefore must be a human creation.

He does give us free will. But, just because God gives us freedom of choice doesn't mean He's completely out of the picture. For example: if you have children, you give them free will, but, you don't let them go completely insane. You want to keep them safe. So, you guide them. Help them out.<br />
For the other fantastic points you explained, I'm not completely sure. Although I am a Christian, I'm not very learned in Biblical fundamentals or apologetics. I'd like to be... but, my faith is ba<x>sed on what God's done in my life and what I've seen done in other people's lives. But, anyway. Really great debate topic you have here :)

You mean that god made Kain jealous of his brother because god loved Kain so much? Or did he love Abel more and did he come up with a plan to make Kain kill Abel to take Abel into his glory?<br />
The whole idea of being able to sin is ridiculous, since we became aware of "good" and "evil" AGAINST god's will... remeber god din't want "us" to eat from the tree of knowledge, so, god wanted us ignorant. Or, more to the point, did god want us ignorant to be able to take advantage of us? To give us false information about good and bad? Why on earth -or in paradise- would god want to keep us from knowing good from bad? And then punish us when we DID find out about good and bad? How can we be good when we don't know bad, or either of them? Maybe god didn't want us to know about good and bad because otherwise we would find out god isn't as good as he claimed he was? Maybe god didn't want us to find out the TRUTH?

hellooo, i think i still love your mentality and the way you think, on the surface, you may be considered an atheist, but actually you have a great deep faith of God mercy and God will and that is pretty great believe! You know that God created us for a reason and you apply that reason! We are all created to worship Him. To worship Him means to follow what He orders and avoid what He forbids!<br /><br />
Once you buy a new electric device, you should read its booklette to know how to use it, what is proper to it and what shouldnt as it may spoil the machine! Sure you dont discuss these instructions as the inventor knows best the secrets and science behind that! We are such such such more complicated than this machine! We are more than a hardware, a soulware too! So, only the One who invented lets say or created u knows what is proper and what is not! Especially for this soul which we know nothing about! Nothing about how it comes to push life and how it leaves to set dead! You can do whtever you do! But what about this soul which is eternal and never end by death! It is what you give to it which makes it decide its lator way, you either load it with sins and dark intuitions to get heavy and cannot over rise to paradise, it will easily to fall to hell. The more you load it, the deeper it falls down! Or lighten it up by daily or periodic cleansing that lets it fly higher and higher to heavens and reach paradise we basically have been at!<br /><br />
It is our mission on the earth to return to our homeland paradise by disobeying the devil who removed us out of it and so he (the devil) desrved the eternal damnation and curse of God! See how much God loves us by what He did to our Only real enemy due to envy and jealousness!<br /><br />
You say you want to do however sins you like to? Ok! Why not! But what sins you mean? Are they the instinctive need quality sins? Or the overrunning of the others rights quality sins! You should judge by yourself why these sins were forbidden! You are smart and good enough to do that.. But i want to remind you that our souls are a part of God, he blown into Adam first from His Spirit, so we own something of God, it is the best part of us, and this part is not ours as you see! It's the part that is behind our Creativity and intelligence and all mental powers man could own or made! So this God gift should keep clean and pure as we first got it! What if i lend you my car, wouldnt you out of courtsey and fidelity, be careful to keep it in its best state, and whenever i come back for it, you'll say: here is your car and thank you! Should i take my car destroyed or smashed? How would we return our souls to the Owner all that loaded with darkness and heavyweighted sins! Is there any body died then returned to tell what happened to him? should we suppose things we dont have logic or science for that life ends by death? What i it was the start, and our life here is just a dream or a test of what we lator desrve to be eternally?!<br /><br />
It is worthy to think about it, and think about This merciful God who seeks the best for His creatures who never hate or dissmiss! However sinful you are! Just return to Him and ask Forgiveness and repentance, and He will be very very happy in you and bless u and erase all ur sins and faults by His ultimate mercy and love!<br /><br />
he is our God and we are his creatures,, we best have to be most polite and courteous at thinking in or behaving with Him!<br /><br />
Wish all all all all the best my dear brother in humanship!

I've read excerpts from the results and there was a general concensus that the differences in personality were so blatant that there's a high probability that there was more than one "person/god" at work/being described in the bible; at one time he's a gentle, caring and forgiving deity, while in other instances he acts/reacts as a stubborn, spoiled child with rasch, illogical decisions and signs of "mild" despotic bouts.

My profound personal belief is that God did not create humans, humans created God. I am answering ba<x>sed on my knowledge of religion although I don't believe in God, and because I love a good argument. <br />
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This said, I totally agree with you about the nearly 6000 years; ba<x>sed on the jewish calendar that started at the Exodus of the jews from Egypt, the set of rules being the ten commandments. Humans were "left without guidance" for the previous 194000 years. So how will the previous generations fare on Judgement Day? They didn't really have rules to break so did they sin or not? And even then, these rules were communicated to a select few and not the whole earth. What about the native American, Europeans, Asians, who heard about God less than a1000 years ago? If God was God, He would have sent His rules to the whole of humanity at the same time would He not?<br />
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However, where I choose to disagree is the family concept you revoke. We are all part of God's family. God's is Our Father, as expressed everywhere in the Bible. "Our Father in Heaven..." the staple prayer of the Christians, God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost as the fondamental belief of Christianity, and so on.<br />
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I have heard about the existence of a report or thesis on God's personality analysis ba<x>sed on the desc<x>riptions gathered from the Torah, Bible and Quran. I was not fortunate enough to find it and read it however. I wish I could find it. That would definitely make for intersting reading!

I love the fact that you are free to argue your case. I don't want to argue for or against what you are saying, but only to mention a difference in my outlook, one of definition: to me, the word "religion" pertains to churches, since I roughly define different churches as different religions. So, when I need a word for that closeness to or joining with the beauty at the core of all I use the word spirituality. For me, the word "religion" doesn't measure up in that regard.

Your whole concept is flawed, because god didn't raise us as a family, but set us free out in the world.<br />
May I also remind you that the set of rules came only some 4000 years ago, while humans have been around for at least 200,000 years.<br />
And asking for forgivenes because I did something thanks to a perfect being making me imperfect is stupid. HE should apologize to US for being so daft as to create an imperfect being, which, by the way, must be pretty hard to do for a perfect creature.<br />
And you're dreaming when you start surmising god is fair and just. If anything, god is incompetent.

You made the statement: “You can't give someone freedom of choice and then punish that person for carrying out that freedom, because that smells a lot like having the freedom of doing what god wants, not what we want. “ This argument is flawed in my opinion. My ob<x>jection stems from the fact that God has every right to punish you for your transgressions to his code of conduct. He has done so countless times as explained in the Bible, the Torah and the Quran. The choice before you is obey God or disobey God. As you raise your kids, you explain to them the rules to follow. You give them the freedom of choosing how to behave, yet they are punished for their bad behavior. It is the same relation between us and God. God told us what to do and what not to do. If we choose to “sin” then we should expect to be punished.<br />
Everyone has the free-will to do anything but in the end each one will be accountable for each one's actions. What did you do with your free-will? If you use your freedom to kill, steal and make mayhem on earth, then you shall be accountable for it and God is the Judge, Jury and Executioner. One who commits mischief cannot be the same as one who kept righteous. <br />
On the other hand, I totally agree with the pre-destiny argument. If God wrote for you to sin and lead a "bad" life, then He would have no recourse to punish you for what He destined you to become. <br />
Yes, you can ask forgiveness and all will be forgiven IF you are sincere in your repentance and IF you demonstrate the will to resist temptation to stray out of the path of righteousness. However, I do not accept sinners will suffer an eternity in hell for a lifetime of sins. If God is Fair and Just then the punishment should be proportionate to the sins. A blanket punishment is neither fair nor just.

Thanks Puck and Queenofargyll for the comment : )<br />
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An interesting question you raise here, justmeonline... especially in the light of new findings about our genes, at a very young age, adapting to our surroundings and circumstances in order to be "better prepared" for the life to come...

All I know is sin doesn't send you to hell and righteousness doesn't send you to Heaven, and my shield of faith is made out of straw.

@IMeWed:<br />
Yes I have read the bible. And no, I'm not unhappy. On the contrary, I'm doing more than fine, thank you : )<br />
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@DarkAmber:<br />
Now why on Earth would I want to ask for forgiveness to a god who instigated a church and its leaders to murder, rape and pillage through the centuries? Why would I ask for forgiveness to a god who takes away our children at an early age just because he "loves" them so much, leaving parents all over the world in misery?<br />
If anything, the bastard should AT LEAST apologize to me; to ALL OF US for being such an arsehole...<br />
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@HeartLikeaChild:<br />
The concept of right and wrong is the perogative of the parents. If you let god decide what is right and/or wrong, you come to the conclusion that killing is okay (Kain and Abel, The Big Flood, Sodom & Gommorrah, and the billions of people and other animals who died in history: all killed by god for no other reason than that he could)<br />
Gods laws are NOT universal. They don't even apply on Earth. They only apply in minds which are too feeble to go looking for REAL answers, but instead fall back on what church leaders say. Remember that the new testament was written/assembled BY MEN, long after Jesus of Nazareth had died; mostly plagiarized from older cults like those of the Egyptians...<br />
And who warns the ants in the forest of a tree falling on their nest?<br />
God is a fiddling fool, as genesis clearly lets transpire: god created the Earth and its waters, but the Earth was without form. Which means there was no solid core and thus no gravity field. But three days later, when the bearded one finally decides to continue shaping the earth, the water is still there. A perfect example of how god didn't exactly know what he was doing...<br />
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@chicka37:<br />
Right on, sistah : )<br />
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@Nivek191:<br />
The King James bible is a swiss cheese: so many holes and deliberate mis-translations that it is astonishing no clerical leader has ever said anything about it. Oh, wait! Of course not, since they made the errors deliberately themselves in order to be able to keep on fooling the people.<br />
I suggest YOU read the ORIGINAL bible first, compare it to what's being sold as gospel today and draw your conclusion. And with original bible, I also mean the other gospels which have been conveniently left out and are today called the Apocryph Texts...

Don't go by ANYTHING from the Catholic church and educate yourself by reading the bible yourself- it is sad you never got taught the truth growing up.

First off god IS all forgiving but only if you truly ask it. Their is a need for hell. God intended if for the devil and his demons alone but he did give us free will to chose. Our lives are not pre destioned. God has walked through our lives and seen our choices. He knows what we will decide to do. God gave us life. He is the only judge and we chose what our sentence is. We sin all the time butwhere sin abounds grace abounds more so. He is forgiving if you want it. Ask for it. All knowing doesnt mean predetermined. It means knows everything. Pre determined is when your life is decided for you. God doesnt force anyone. And you dont know god so you cant say knowing him... Because he gave us choice. We decide. God called all of us. Yes even you. But not everyone is going to chose him. He dosent expect perfection. He wants you to love him and have a relationship with him. To him your his son. But not everyones children love their parents. He still loves you tho

Have you read the Bible? My son is my child and not my puppet. We are God's children and you certainly need to stop taking things literally from the sc<x>riptures and just working the negative to put God in that light. U almost sound a little ungreatful for being alive. Good luck w/ your unhappiness

This comment was almost funny!

Excuse me, perseverer, but sins belong strictly in the religious realm, while crimes belong in reality. People who are in jail have been judged (although the Ten Commandments have a line saying "thou shalt not judge") and sentenced according to Human law, not divine law.<br />
The hypocrisy of having to swear on a book which represents a deity who has told us not to judge, in front of a person who is about to judge you, is simply not of this earth.<br />
It is not Man who invented the concept of sin, but church rulers. The latter used this to instil fear upon their followers.<br />
The whole clerical system works on culpability and repentance. First make everybody guilty right from before they were even born and then keep on collecting on it for eternity amen, that's the general idea of catholic religion in the first place...

It is a non sequiter to say that because God has knowledge of future events we therefore lack freedom or culpability. We have both freedom and culpability; we recognize this within ourselves because we are creatures who are both free and invested with justice. Whenever I hear someone complaining of the notion of consequences for actions I feel suspicious of their motives. What actions do they not want to have to be held accountable for? What would happen if we applied your logic to those currently in prison?

Piney, it's the other way round. Lucifer -the bringer of light- got tired of god acting despotic and wanting to be worshipped by man. So, Lucifer said to god that, if it was about being worshipped, that such a thing was easy to do. While god was away on one of his many, many absences, Lucifer started his own fanclub at Sodom and Gommorrah.<br />
Upon gods return, Lucifer showed him his work and god -again- threw a tantrum. Instead of being the reasonable and understanding creature he always is depicted like, he instead KILLED everybody... and as a result, Lucifer and likeminded angels started a rebellion in the Heavens...<br />
God was also afraid -like in scared- that man would achieve god-like status. After Humans built the Tower Of Babel which "reached into the heavens" god muttered to nobody in particular that "if they can achieve THIS kind of greatness, there is no way of stopping them..." and as a result god divided Human knowledge by letting different races speak different languages so that people no longer understood one-another...<br />
So much for a "perfect" all-knowing entity...

I don't have a problem with you being yourself. The nice thing about you seems to be your willingness to interact with others who also want to be their selves. I do believe in God. Though life experiences have crushed my faith and taught me to question everything and to avoid organized religion. I think God is big enough to handle the hard questions. Even though I have been been agreeing to disagree with God for a while now; I still think the God as I have experienced and understood in the past; would welcome your questioning the concept of sin. In fact I was reminded of Paul's letter to the Romans when reading this and another story you recently wrote (The Disilike Black and White thinking story). Not sure where you wrote against judging ( judge not may have been in the title) but that is what Romans is all about. The first chapter slams certain behaviour but then the second chapter says wait don't judge that cause if you have ever done anything that offended anyone it is no different. <br />
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I really I think it is so much deeper than black and white; wrong and right but then again - Because some things- some horrible abusive things have happened in my family it is impossible for me not to see some things such as child abuse as wrong. Doesnt matter whether it is a sin or not if it hurts people. It just is like a stone thrown in a pond that has a ripple effect of pain.<br />
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But the point of your story questioning the possibility of sin juxtaposed against God's gift of free will is brilliant. It is a great debate that should get people thinking more deeply on the subject.

Grrr... the st James bible was written to prevent rebellion from the Scottish Puritans... The King (King James) said there would be a new bible written... and the idea was both sides would have an input... The puritans got Royally Shafted (pun intended). It just meant the king could regulate the message the people were getting...<br />
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Yeah. Maybe the Hebrew wasnt as well understood.... But it was deliberately mistranslated to fit in with the Kings diktat....(I love that word... Infact this entire comment was just an excuse to use that word in context). <br />
This is a hobby horse of mine.... Ive ranted on it in one of Ediez drunken blogs...

Sure. What you're saying is the equivalent of "all roads lead to Rome"... No matter what we do, we will end up at a pre-destined point. Death is the ultimate pre-destined point and proof that at least one such point exists.<br />
But my little litany was aimed at claims by scholars and other "learned minds" inside this vestige that organized religion is.<br />
I also must point out that your example about knowing the outcome is a rather regretful one, since not every *****-meets-egg does result in a pregnancy...

The Saint James Bible is still the reference work for most scholars, although (or maybe because) there's a whole lot of mis-translations in it -simply because at the time the priests didn't know as much about Hebrew as we do today- and an awesome lot of ad-libbing from some translators along our history...

Jimmy like your post but can't remember anywhere in bible about building Churchs,but Jeseus did say where 2 or more are gathered in my name I will be there<br />
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The Best bible I've read and that was written by a group of priests both protestant and cathlic its the ST JAMES version simple but effective so a child can read.

Jimmy<br />
I think you're AWESOME however you are in the moment !! I think that's the secret to getting along with folks. Learning to love them, for being them, in all the different ,moods and phases they have, be it from moment to moment or through a lifetime. <br />
Religion can brain wash folks into thinking they need to "change" people, not just for how to believe in a certain deity but how they view the masses in general. That's where the trouble starts

*mind boggles*<br />
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Im Catholic... Barely... <br />
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But my beliefs dont stand up to a logical assault.<br />
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So why am I? <br />
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Because it comforts me. Because sometimes It does me good to think Im not 'top of the food chain' if that makes sense....

I've never had a problem being myself. It's usually other people who have a problem with me being myself : )

Sin stand only in mind. Heart don't have sin inside, Soul don't know sin.<br />
Only false interpretation of the reality throught bad education, false theory & unintelligible fanatism open the door to the ' sin ' theory.<br />
Einstein could say about that " it's relative ". Be Yourself, please !<br />

Jimmy, as always I LOVE the pure logic you approach this with.....I have scratched my head over religion for years. I respect everyones right to believe what they want but I for one follow only 2...."codes of conduct"<br />
1. If it feels good do it and if it don't leave it alone.<br />
2. Treat others the same way you want to be treated.<br />
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I like the whole idea that you share here. What gets shared or learned from my chosen deity or spiritual connection is between me and it. I don't need a group of middlemen, a special building or a pre-set amount of money to be sent in, in order to grant my access to either the deity or building. <br />
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I feel a lot closer to something "spiritual" out in a forest or climbing a mountain then I ever did sitting on a hard wooden seat listening to a man mumble about an upcoming "bingo night"....

I have no comment on the subject matter mostly, but indeed, very well written Sir.

Scrap the "maybe", wabbit :D<br />
And enemies? Why? A lot of people should again learn that religion and church are two completely different things...<br />
Religion is a state of mind, a sharing between a person and his/her deity.<br />
The church is about taking away that connection and replacing it with their doctrine.

um... I've read the Bible. It totally says there are things you won't be forgiven for. I'm thinking the RCC has edited it to ... erm... lord, i'm gonna make a few enemies here, but maybe to fill their coffers?

God is all-forgiving except to those who refuse his forgiveness... That's what the bible says and what the Roman Catholic church has been screaming from the rooftops for almost 2000 years...

not that i want to get... " Into it "... but who said God was all-forgiving?