Outsourcing Your Needs

So you live in a sexless marriage.  There is no sex (or very little sex) and your relationship lacks intimacy and emotional connection.   As a "sex person" you miss this badly and have tried, without success, to address the issue in your marriage.

You love your spouse, who is basically a good person.  You share children, a home, past history - and really do NOT want to leave your marriage.  Ideally, you'd like your spouse to return to the good old days when s/he loved sex as much as you do.  Or, in the case of those whose spouses have never been sexually expressive, for them to discover their sexuality and revel in expressing it with you . . .  But the chances of this happening are slim to nil.

You are facing the "classic choices" of ILIASM:
1)   stay in your marriage as it is and just put up with things as they are
2)   leave your marriage
3)   stay in your marriage - and outsource your needs!

This story addresses point 3.

If you choose this option, it involves a third party (or even more if you are very adventurous!).  And herein lies the first problem.  Just "deciding to have an affair"  or "deciding to take an FWB (friend with benefits)" may be easy to do, BUT it may not be so easy to find a suitable candidate.  But, for the purpose of this exercise, let us assume you have a suitable candidate "available". . . 

Before considering how this decision will impact on you and your marriage, let's look at the impact on the chosen person.   Does s/he want exactly what you want - a "no strings attached" relationship?  If so, can you be sure s/he won't change his/her mind after a period of time?  (Sex has a way of bringing people together in emotional ways!)   How will you cope if your FWB decides s/he wants a more permanent relationship?   Or what will you do if your FWB decides to confront your spouse with this relationship the two of you have?

Now it is your turn.  First, you will probably have to overcome your conditioning that says "affairs are wrong".   Whilst you may believe an external sexual relationship is feasible for you, you may nevertheless suffer guilt once you have instigated the affair or FWB relationship.  Then, you will need to consider carefully the "how, when, where" of your affair.   Unlike a current poster, I cannot imagine a situation where you invite your new partner openly to your home and insist your spouse agree to you bonking each other silly in the spare room!!   (And this may be very judgemental of me, but IMO, if your FWB agreed to such a thing, s/he could hardly be considered a "quality person"!!)

But those of us who live in sexless marriages are a resourceful bunch, so I'm assuming you have dealt with both the guilt and the practicalities, and are ready to go!!   What can you expect. . . ??

On the plus side, you can expect to have some WONDERFUL outcomes!  You will feel renewed as a person.  Your confidence in your sexuality will be restored and refreshed.  You will have all the purely physical joys of great sex once again.  It can be (and probably will be) an euphoric experience! 
It is great to feel admired, desired, wanted and sexy again.  It helps put your worst fears about yourself to bed. (Pun intended!)  It is amazing to know someone else wants you as much as (or more than) your spouse does NOT want you!

A perfect solution!!  But wait - sadly it may not turn out to be "perfect".   When you return to your sexless marriage, you may well experience even more acutely that which is missing in this primary relationship of your's.  What was barely tolerable before now becomes increasingly INtolerable.   When you decided to outsource your needs, you probably thought something like this:
"Well, I don't want to leave my spouse, and all that is really missing in the marriage is sex, so if I can get this need met elsewhere, I should be able to continue with the marriage."

But having great sex tends to highlight that which is missing from your marriage OTHER than sex.  Previously, the "no sex" isssue loomed so large that it tended to mask any other problems in the marriage.   But now you ARE having sex, you can see that it was not and is not the "only problem".   Chief of the other possible problems is likely to be an absence (or at least a serious reduction) in "intimacy".   This is why many ILIASMers refer to their spouses as "room mates" - because they really are no more than good friends and room mates - NOT spouses in the real sense.

And now you can see the genuine possibility that you COULD have the sort of relationship you really want.   Even if you entered into your affair or FWB relationship with a determination to keep it NSA, chances are it won't stay that way for long.   One or both of you may well start to develop emotional feelings for the other.   Sex has a lovely way of developing loving intimacy between two people - and if you are not getting this need met with your spouse, you may very well find it impossible to stay emotionally detached from your new partner.

Even if your FWB is not interested in a long term relationship with you, the genie is still out of the bottle!  You now KNOW there is a good chance you WILL find someone who will meet your needs AND be someone whom you can love and cherish, and who will love and cherish you . . . .

Your spouse may detect that you are "different" - hard not to be when you are having amazing sex after a LONG drought!     Even if your spouse does not have any idea of your affair, your increased self confidence and happiness may strike them as "new and different", thus provoking suspicion or fear.   This is usually about you leaving the marriage - and in most sexless marriages, the Refuser spouse is very happy with the status quo - so s/he does not want you to leave!  Even in unhappy marriages, some spouses choose to "keep" their spouses, because they see a divorce as losing face, or losing control of the spouse.

So now you are facing a new problem.  Either your spouse is treating you with suspicion and anger - not very pleasant.  Or s/he is doing his/her utmost to "win you back".   This latter can be even more difficult than dealing with the angry suspicious spouse.   At least in that scenario you can say that your marriage truly IS over.   When your spouse is busily doing all things possible to please you, a sense of obligation (and possibly increased guilt) can trap you even further.

I have no intention of addressing this ssue from a moral or ethical viewpoint.  Each person is guided by their own beliefs  regarding these decisions. Yet these can add yet another layer of confusion, guilt, concern and uncertainty to the whole situation.

In conclusion, I am writing this from MY point of view.  I went down this track - and this is what happened to me.   Some people can deal with compartmentalising their sex life and their emotional life and their day-today life very successfully.  And I truly wish them well.  Others are like me, and find that outsourcing their needs adds another layer of complexity to an already complex and difficult situation.

As you consider how to proceed with your sexless marriage, please take this story as a "cautionary tale".  If you decide to go this route, know that you may be making your life even more difficult.  As for me, option 2 was my final choice - and it has worked out well for me.  But each person must decide for him/herself how to proceed.   As my beloved Baz says "Tread your own path"!!

Addendum 21st Feb 2013:
The wise Footballbat asked me if I could have moved forward in my own life withOUT having this experience - and that has made me really think about this proposition.  The truth is, I don't know because I DID have the experience.  But I suspect I might NOT have moved forward - or it might have taken me a LOT longer to do so - without this experience.

Having sex with my FWB assured me that I was desirable, sane, normal in my desires and that my life was NOT condemned to sexlessness!   Altho I personally found the FWB route was not a satisfactory long term solution, I have no doubt it DID propel me into taking further action to resolve my sexless marriage issues.

Would I recommend it for others?  That is the $60 million question!!  I think perhaps it would be wisest to say that, for those leaning towards this "solution", go into it with the prior knowledge I did not have - that is, the information from this story.  (Other ILIASMers have said they had similar outcomes.)  IF you feel confident to undertake this, then go for it.  But be aware that whilst it might be a catalyst for change (a GOOD thing IMO!!) it may not work as a solution for you.  Or it may in fact be only a short term solution.   Bear in mind though that any solution only has to work until it stops working - however long that might be!  (Thanks for another gem, my Bazzar!)
enna30 enna30
56-60, F
215 Responses Apr 2, 2011

very astute xo...I'm still looking

This write-up -- to a phrase -- exactly parallels my thought processes... my actions... and my experiences. It was written several years before I joined EP... but several years after I had my "big affair". (I swear I have been planning to write almost exactly this on EP someday.)

I love this, I have been their it's a rollacoaster ride!!!!! It's fun, scary, exciting, hurts!!!! But at the end totally worth it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My experience has been mostly good with the FWB route. No relationship remained in tack for more than 6 months. The relationships all ended on good terms. Most common reasons for moving on were:1) Somewhat different sexual interests.2) Logistics - it became too risky to maintain the relationship.One relationship was excellent. We became very good friends and had a lot in common both in and out of the bedroom.It has been 5 years now since I have had sex with another human. I am starting to wonder if I will ever experience physical intimacy again. I don't see leaving my wife as a good option. I care too much about her well being to leave her. I am working on fixing our intimacy issues, but it has been more than 5 years without sex with my wife, perhaps 7 or 8 years. Imagining a time when we can enjoy each other as a husband and wife is very hard to imagine. Still I am not giving up.Maybe I can learn something by interacting with this group.For now I don't imagine that I have much valuable advice to share with regard to fixing a sexless marriage. My track record is abysmal.

From about 50 000 members here only about 3 cases can be called FIXED... Both sites were involved and interested to make it work...and as I can remember dry spell was not that huge... so, sorry,but can't say anything optimistic... Coke probably never been there...

You mean I have to put the quarters in the machine to get the machine to put out?

Nope... just make a few steps to an other machine..

Another machine. There are other machines! I get it.

1 More Response

I wanted a longer term solution to my problem. An affair love relationship and divorce helped me. Women have this biological dynamic which makes mechanical sex a little more challenging. Oxytocin -- a bonding hormone that is released when a woman a) nurses her baby and b) has an ******. It tends to mess up keeping things distant. It might explain why more men are available than women.

OnAlert, i am pondering if i agree with you. I agree about the hormones but... i think if a woman is honest with herself she is just as capable of having only sex. But perhaps she has to be clear and ok with whats going on in her mind.

Revision... apparently its completely situational... ugh!

Thanks, I really enjoyed reading this.

I know this so unds weird but I wish I had a place that I could post this for myself. I have left itup on my cell internet page because I find I want to reread sections and ponder them. I have been out sourcing for a while now and find myself on a similar course. I am not sure why I have feared the cconversation of outsourcing. Thank you for writing it.

There is something so sexy about a neglected wife who "outsources" her needs omg

I am amazed you have written my story except I am not yet separated but that will happen shortly. I also looked outside my sexless marriage just to satisfy my sexual needs and I found far more because I became emotionally involved. I never believed in love at first sight but this was even before we had sex. It has completely changed me and my outlook on life. As you say I now realise what I was missing and it was far more than sex it was my right to a fulfilling life. Who knows what the future may bring but at least now I have a future to reach for and a life that gets me up in the morning. I can't speak for others obviously but don't live in ambivalence.

This is a refreshing view. Thanks for sharing!

Thanks. This is what EP is all about. I wish you well for your future.

Thanks for your post - I like the idea that you really thought this out.
I too am in a sexless marriage and have thought this out - for me, there were other issues to add to the pot: 1- having only ever had sex w/my husband and wondering what I would be like w/someone other, 2- the very real possibility that I may develop a physical disability as I age (I have MS, though you wouldn't think so now to look at me), and wanting to enjoy my body while I can.
So I made enquiries, and a friend got back to me w/a name and number of a man who deals with the sensual needs of women, usually in the context of getting victims of abuse back to their own body. But he's happy to help most causes!
The idea of paying for a service appeals to me if only because it takes out any emotional transaction, and it becomes a purely beautiful physical exchange. I don't see him all that regularly (most often it's just a sensual massage), and in the meantime my husband and I are seeing a counsellor - we have kids, and I do love him, but I have told him: not only will I not have an affair (my own original family fell apart because of one), but things cannot go on as they have i.e. little or no sex for the last 9 years. Our marriage is heading for the rocks unless our situation is resolved one way or the other.

Elkael, I hope your form of MS is benign (as mine is) or at least minimally progressive.

I have the EXACT SAME FEELINGS about wanting to enjoy my body while I can. In my case, because my wife "is just not interested" in sex (or me and my naked body, for that matter), I have become a nudist and a figure drawing model (nude posing).

Both have been terrific for me. I can be naked around other naked people (nude beach) and not have to listen to my wife telling me to put some clothes on (she would never consider going with me, of course). Also, I have become a successful, well-established nude model at a dozen different colleges and studios, with plenty of repeat business - and I'm getting paid to get naked! The nude modeling has been a great ego boost for me, as I apparently am quite good at it (and I do work very hard at it, too). The artists have been very complementary about my looks and my poses, which is incredibly rewarding.

So, I have found a way to get myself some validation that I look OK naked, get compliments on my body, get paid for people to look at me naked(!) and am accepted as a "normal" human being by other nudists.

By the way, did all things sexual come to a screeching halt soon after your diagnosis? That's what happened to me...

Great to hear that you're appreciated for being in your birthday suit....I draw several people here on EP so look into My Drawings gallery if you're interested in artwork.
And by the way,as a high sex-driven male who's lady has switched off...I model for other women in the nude...except they can't draw,but I have been complimented for my poses!...haha! Outsourcing is Oxygen!

Oh, Awesome! This is the kind of thing I meant when I wrote my "What we CAN do" story:
"(...) 1. Work A LOT on your self-esteem. With or without a relationship you are going to need that. Always. (...)12. DO expose your body to pleasant experiences other than sex. You need and deserve those endorphins so engage your body and spirit in physical activities. Try new things. Do yoga. Dance. Sweat. Find contentment, confidence, freedom and sexiness in movement. Stay curious and adventurous about how your body works and expresses who you are. Let your body tell other stories besides the SM one. DO not forget nourishment, too, so groom yourself. Do not spare your body from the appreciation of yourself and others."

I just now finished reading your "What we CAN do" post for the first time. So well written and so well thought out. I came to a few of the same conclusions through trial and error - now I can just follow your checklist!
Thanks for your "Awesome" comment! It's really nice when one of my stories rings true with someone else.
I love your #12 - do EXPOSE your body...LOL! While I know it won't work for everybody, it sure does work for me.

1 More Response

Great thread...new here. I'm much older, still have the fire, wife with chronic illness and no libido. Have had a couple FWB experiences over the years. Have found that with my conservative background, finding someone like me is difficult. Any ideas?

Ashley Madison?

Very good analysis! I had an affair for 18 months. It was the greatest thing I've ever experienced. No, it didn't improve things at home. At all. I can honestly say that things are worse now than they were before the affair. But I did fall deeply in love. I wasn't willing to leave my situation. We talked about it (my affair and I), but I am the one with younger kids, living parents, financial constraints, so I put the brakes on that route. Things ended sadly, but I'd go through the whole thing again because it made me feel alive. I've tried to replace him, but I can't seem to. I'm told that time will heal my sad wounds. I'm hoping. But again. Im not sorry I did it. I wish I could be in the #2 club. What about an open relationship? I would like to have the courage to ask for that. Maybe I'll hold a metaphoric gun to his head and say that he can agree to that or a divorce. But who knows if I'll ever have the courage for that. It just sucks to be rejected this way.

Wow... I too wish for the open marriage route.

What a great post. Insightful and true for some. I really wish all the conversations with my wife paid off with a change. Outsourcing it is...and will be!!

Thanks for the reasonable yet life-affirming take on this delicate question. Everyone in this forum is facing one side of it.
This is an extremely good point: finding a suitable bed partner can be as hard as finding a husband. Plus, it can be dangerous, too, because there is very little to know about who you may be dealing with.
Lately the isolation I experience from not having any intimacy is leading me to be more and more disengaged from my marriage. Although I still have love and admiration for my husband I am starting to realize that my natural cooperativeness in the relationship is failing, as a symptom. Which sadly yet implacably directs me towards #2.
Sometimes I consider #3. However I have not met any man, REALLY, that catches my attention for more than two minutes. I even wonder - what if? Well, maybe I would have the hell of a good time. Maybe if I happen to have sex these days AND like it it I would be so grateful and alive that it would speak for itself. But once the sex would be over, what would I do about it? For a while it would be powerful, magical, transformational. In the long run, that alone would not solve my problem(s).
Also, once I get alone and unmarried it' s more likely to find available sex than love.This is actually the most scary part, because it seems to me like I never had both in the same relationship.I don't quite envy my friends who are having sex yet suffer in unstable and poor relationships.
I do hope to make my move as a #2. So God help me.

This is exactly how i feel! the same fears - where do you find a compatible 'bed-fellow', and more importantly, what after?
"Also, once I get alone and unmarried it' s more likely to find available sex than love.This is actually the most scary part, because it seems to me like I never had both in the same relationship.I don't quite envy my friends who are having sex yet suffer in unstable and poor relationships."

Holy crap, we are living parallel fates! Thank you for putting this so eloquently! I agree, thinking you are the only one going through this is terrible. Your story helps me realize I am not the only one.

When you feel like you are the only one with this situation. I seem to have found people of same experiences. Thank you for your story this story has enlightened
My life

Thanks Enna, you speak the truth. As one who's been and is on this road and not sure where it will turn out, I appreciate you paving and sharing the road.

This sure summed it up for me. After many many of years of feeling so neglected sexually and emotionally I finally succumbed to an affair. It was exciting and I could not get enough of him. I started developing feelings...looking back I realize it was not love. I was just so starved for what he gave me. It was like a drug that I wanted more and more of. The affair lasted 6 months. I was left feeling utterly devastated. The sadness of a lack luster marriage was no comparison to the deep depression this brought on. But I got through that and decided on another affair, but could not go through with it. I realized I truly only wanted this with my husband. It was never going to happen. In the end we divorced. He did not want this, but also did not make any real efforts to try and keep us together.

Its so interesting how we women that find ourselves in an affair are seeking the same things from our lovers. So starved and deprived, we develop feeling for the other person, which only leaves us worse of than we were before. I'm talking this path right now. Who knows, maybe I'll be divorced by next year.

Thats the thing. If one is simply after a root, then this could go ok (but usually doesn't because continual rooting tends to make you develop feelings for the other, which will spin the thing out of control)
If one is actually after intimacy, then one is really looking for a new primary relationship.

You have a very good point there, I think thats actually exactly what Im seeking.. subconsciously at first, but I get it now..

SeaOfHope, you say that you realized that "..I truly only wanted this with my husband".. but is that really true? Wasnt it just so that none of the two other lovers provided that intimacy for you (they just wanted the sex) so you went back to your husband for it? Its a safe place to go back to, and you know he is there to provide intimacy in your lonely hour.. However, the quality of intimacy provided by the husband can be questioned though, because as bazzar so correctly put it here below: we're really looking for a new primary relationship. Why else would we long for intimacy from our lovers/other men? I'm only making this point as Im exactly where you were. I'm not judging at all, just shedding light.. And I really believe if that if my lover provided the intimacy I want from him, my marriage would VERY likely end very vey fast.

I have a dear friend who had an affair while in a relationship with who she thinks was the love of her life. When she finally told him, he broke up and they never spoke to each other again. She then tried to work on her relationship with the former lover, and it never took flight. They are breaking-up now.
I live in a sexless marriage and it's though.
I just wonder if there is a point in life when we have to commit to a decision - being happy no matter what. Those are the marriages that work.

2 More Responses

Having an affair is wrong any way you slice it. He will find out. He will be crushed. leaving him will hurt him badly. betraying him like that will destroy him.

Whatever you say....

Some men wake up and become more attentative,some get excited,others become trapped....but at least it\'s better than sitting around and doing nothing....so you\'re partly right.

I did.

It's not for you. don't do it.

What I like about this subject is that it's titled 'Outsourcing your Needs',and that's the root of any need for anyone.Let's say we change the subtitle,'I live in a Sexless Marraige' and replace it with, 'My job doesn't give me Satisfaction'....well suddenly everyone will be in agreement,change your job,look for another one but still remain in your current job,get two jobs...why not three!...better still,start your own business!<br />
Then we can look at why some people have two cars,two houses...more than one pair of shoes,(you can only wear one pair at a time),sprawling wardrobes and 'Stuff' that we don't need or even have time to look at.We have thousands of photographs that most we've only seen when taking the picture,after which they're archived forever!<br />
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So perhaps 'Sex' has been placed in a 'Have Box',something we need to include in our everyday consumption,like a diet product or a booster for energy,a bonus raise so that we can comfort the endless 'Unsatisfaction' we feel everyday because we're convinced that 'More' is obviously 'Better'. <br />
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I have a zero sex activity with my lady,thought it wasn't normal,thought I was owed it,thought that we were disfunctional....but I'm considering now the possibility that 'No Sex' is a normal state,and that 'Sex' is an option from which I can choose.Creating this 'Choice' has given me the freedom to choose,because with a 'No Choice' approach,I'm trapped...and we all know how we feel when we're trapped. We get angry,sad,stressed and depressed,and place ourselves in the 'Victim' seat,strapped down so that we can hardly breathe,as we mutter and stammer our discontentment to others in the same boat.<br />
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I totally agree to 'Outsource Needs',but I question the fact that it may be part of a 'Collective Brainwashing' on consommation,constantly told that if we do not adhere to 'Consume',then there's something disfuctional in our make up.<br />
Now here I sit blurting out my 'Out of the Box' thoughts,but if my lady were to slip up behind me after years of iced over abstinence,stroked my hair and began to tickle my neck with a soft kiss...I might just delete this comment and empty my sex credit card to an alarming overdraft!!!<br />
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'Freedom of Choice' is my new abode concerning 'No Sex',and with that I'll switch off this virtual microphone and step down.

So true

So I found the FWB, but turned out that I'm too emotionally unstable and vulnerable right now to be able to handle the situation (because of whats going on at home, and how its reached a boiling point). I started developing feelings for this guy. I had incredible highs (awesome sex) but extreme lows of loneliness and anxiety when the FWB didnt show me as much attention as I needed. So, I decided to pull the plug. It wasnt worth it to feel all those negative feelings. I am now one week sober from my obsession, with no contact with him. He was the last to contact me so the ball stopped in my court - which it HAD TO for me to be able to shut this down. Control freak? Probably. I still think there's a risk of relapse (contacting him), but I feel pretty confident as of today. I think this can only work for me if I develop NO feelings whatsoever for the FWB. Which is kind of a catch 22: there must be "something" there for me to want to **** him. I still have my eyes open, but will tread carefully..

With all due respect,you\'re not loosing control,the FWB is not a drug,there\'s no \'Relapse\' when contacting someone you appreciate....never feel guilty because you gobble down a choccolate eclair when on a diet,doctors say it\'s good for you to \'Indulge\' void of any guilt feelings....so wipe that dirty stain from your mind that anything that\'s good for you,should make you feel like a drug addict,criminal or guilty as charged.
It\'s okay to feel good,it\'s okay to feel down....what might be not so fun is not accepting how you feel as being an integral part of your \'Build Up\'.
Think it,Dream it,Do it Live it....no-one else can live your life as good as you\'re doing it now!

Bet you\'ve got a smile on your face as you\'re reading this....aha!..accept who you are,then go out and do it on purpose!

I appreciate your point, thank you for making it. I do agree with what you\'re saying. I\'m simply staying away because I do not want to get hurt. I turned out to like my FWB more than he likes me (I think..) and I don\'t want to put myself in a position where I don\'t feel in control - this type of situation needs to be under control in my opinion, or you\'re soon risking more than you should.

Very good point. Thanks for writing :)

How does one find a "suitable candidate"? I don't want to pay for it - that's just creepy. I want the emotional connection, too. I want to cuddle afterward. I want to hug and kiss. I want to be able to open my soul to someone without fear of being attacked emotionally. Why is it so hard to be loved?<br />
<br />
The cuddling afterward is almost better than the act itself. There's something wonderful about that kind of closeness.

Haha! They\'re not candidates,there\'s not a list of questions to get right....you need to be \'Available\' that\'s the secret....men who are wounded in battle can be seen a mile away! You need to boost your totesterone by eating some,find out where you can buy it,hang out in male dominated environments,don\'t sit with the women when at a party,learn to fart again and don\'t wash as often,women get high on the smell of a man......forget the hugs and sloppy kissing,hold her arm firmly when you talk with her,don\'t hesitate....once you\'ve become \'Available\'....then they\'ll start to flitter around you like bees around a strawberry pie...then you simply pick the shyest one and **** the living daylights out of her....she\'ll thank you and shower you with gifts,kisses and lot of cuddles the next time you meet with her....DANGER!...don\'t forget that between cuddling that you MUST **** her until she cries...this will justify the cuddling.
So,don\'t look anymore,make yourself \'Available\'...and when your wife sees you full of confidence because you\'re getting your **** sucked everyday,she\'ll wake up too and begin to get horny....simply because you smell of sex!

I\'m fairly sure this is not a serious reply. \"Don\'t wash as often\"? I doubt that would work.

Is there anyone who can offer a serious reply?

Then just look at the research that has been done on how men and women are attracted to each other...it\'s nothing other than smell.....but if you feel I\'m not a serious EP member then so be it......

I am not questioning your seriousness as an EP member, Bandulu, and I am familiar with the premise that the sense of smell plays a very strong role in sexual attraction. I just find it difficult to believe that NOT bathing as often would be beneficial.

I don\'t go out. I don\'t go to parties. I have no friends where I live. We moved here to be near HER family.

Sorry if I seem a bit tetchy. My brother just died a couple of weeks ago.

First of all,it\'s so easy to be in a conversation and try to prove that we\'re right,so let\'s drop the testosterone odor factor and women\'s attraction magnets....that\'ll be for when you\'re ready.
But if you\'ve moved to please her,but it doesn\'t please you,then perhaps this is an important element to include in the equation...it\'s cut you off from your \'Spice of Life\',and is ebbing away at your self confidence and joy of life.....from what I can gather,time to make a decision....a BIG decision! First of all you have to return into the context from where you came,see how you feel,emotions ,friends,family etc. Then go back to your wife and her family,write it down on a piece of paper,the 10 points in favor,10 against.Do this for both environments and then you will see perhaps why your lady is refraining,(Usually they\'re angry at someone and simply clam up),or ask yourself the question ,\"Am I happy with myself?\",same again,10 points positive about yourself on a piece of paper and 10 points negative. Now sit down with your wife and ask her if she can add to each of your 4 lists,or substract.
Once you\'ve brought up the outline map of the situation,she\'ll talk,you can express your feelings with reference to the lists,don\'t go off on an emotional joyride,facts in black and white.......and my friend you might find that your wife is on your side after all,you might find her in your arms again,and she\'ll look at you in a completely different way....equally you\'ll see her in a different light,hopefully candle light!
But if you sit and do nothing,it\'ll be like \'Waiting for Godo\'.....and we all know that Godo never comes right? Provoke an action,you can screw up,but you can also rectify a mistake.........do it for the person you feel will have approved your action,sad as it may be....he\'ll guide you to a new path,where happiness is an everyday affair.

Don\'t dig any deeper....build something higher!

If I am understanding you correctly, I think I can do that. The first step would be to go back to my \"own\" environment. I need to do that anyway because I have not had a chance to see my family after my brother died earlier this month. I missed the funeral because I was in France due to work, and I have not been able to take time off since my return because of the same situation that sent me to France in the first place.

I\'m sure my wife will be happy to add to the list of negative things about myself and cross things off of the positive list. I\'m not sure how much it will help the situation, though.

I need to consider what you have written a little longer. Thank you for taking the time to write out your suggestions.

Maybe you should run off and respond in an area you know something about. It is crystal clear you do not belong here.

Why don\'t I belong here?

It wasn\'t for you it was @ Bandulu

There are some things we know,some that we don\'t know,some that we think we know...and some things we don\'t even know that we don\'t know....but all I know is what most have already forgotten!

And the Lord said \"Let there be light\"....Amen

Title of group; \'I live in a Sexless Marriage\'
Subgroup title; \'Outsourcing your needs\'

....the door is just over there sir,don\'t call us....we\'ll call you.....ou pas de tout!

Oh, boy, I miss the cuddling so, SO BADLY, that sometimes I even believe I´d set down for cuddling with no sex, provided the cuddling would bring the emotional connection. The hardest part is that, when you have physical and emotional distance blended in your marriage.

The cuddling builds the emotional connection, and that foundation is the one on which great sex is built.

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I have been outsourcing even when sex was happening.....just it case it dried up,and it did....so I'm assured that my desire and libido remains intact.
She was hot and horny at the beginning...then I used to make love to a sleeping wife for 10 years,then kisses were reduced to icy pecks,elbows in the night,then "Stop it!" was her daily vocabulary,then she slept on the sofa for a year,now I'm in a different room.....so apart from the odd slippery adventure from now and again,I really think that I should spice her drink and have my wicked way.....like 'Insourcing',because I really want her....not having to dress and go out to meet up with someone else.....I want to be cosy at home!

So I think that it's not just about sex really,it's about the cosy intimacy that's being refused....that's the annoying part!


Do you not place money in the bank,even when you have enough to spend...or worse than that,seek other ways to earn more than you can spend or need?


I hope you have found a way to meet your needs. I am still trying to find a way to make it work.

I outsourced when my ex-wife decided she was frigid and no longer wanted sex,she as it turned out only wanted my house and boys.However the affair went from a sexual affair to friends with benefits,but when I plucked up courage to move to pastures green we became friends and still are.

I can relate all too well to what you are saying. All she wants is the financial stability and the kids.

For me, the problem is not just sexless marriage but loveless marriage. I try to be a very loving, caring, considerate man. I try to be a very attentive lover and I find great joy in pleasing the woman I love. Is it too much for me to want to be loved in return?

Hope you find or are found by a partner as I have now been found and love is better this time round.

Thank you. I hope so, too. It is tough living without the warmth of a close relationship.

Great post! I have been considering "outsourcing" for months now but I know in my heart that this is just not for me. I can't divide my sex life from my day to day life and I can't sleep with someone I don't love its all about emotions and connecting and I just can't do casual, although being as deprived as I am I'd probably melt at the first proposition I get be that from male or female! Lol

I can relate to your situation, FaithEliza. What I miss the most is the emotional closeness. The physical is just an expression of what is in the heart. That\'s the problem I am having right now.

Well said, now where is that FWB?

Wow very informative, thank you for this! It gives me renewed insight into my fresh FWB. I will continue to tread with caution. Thanks again!

I am so confused.. Don't know what to do..

Who says she\'s quiting on her husband? I\'m in the same situation and I\'ve gone through all of the exact same scenarios as described in this post. I love my family and hold to my responsibilities. I also have discovered I enjoy kink which is added pain on top of no sex. When it comes right down to it we\'re looking at jealousy which is a waste of energy. If I have no sex at home but occasionally get sex somewhere else safely what is the real issue with that. I for one am very honest mind you and I hate having to deceive at all but I don\'t feel like I have much of an option. I\'m not going to go for the rest of my life without sex.

I completely agree with you. Another point I meant to make here and you\'ve reminded me of it. My wife has simply lost interest. She\'s talked about getting some counseling on it but if she does she must make that decision. On your point of \"you\" making the decision as to taking a break I feel the same way. I don\'t want to make her feel guilty for not being interested...that\'s her choice. I strongly feel sexual interest/desire comes from within...I have no interest in forcing or badger/coercing someone into having sex..that to me defeats or greatly takes away from the act.

A very thorough, complete, and rational analysis. All the best to you.

Thanks for the insight. I have thought about this and thanks to this thread will remain where I am since I have most of what I want and life is still good.

The Christian perspective on the sexless marriage issue is very problematic. I come from a Christian background myself and have spent hours thinking about this issue.

As 59Mark says the Bible is completely clear that sex is a good thing and that couples should have lots of sex to stop the risk of straying etc. But there is nothing about what someone who has sexlessness imposed on them should do. Clearly from the Biblical perspective the partner who is refusing sex is being very sinful - but if the rejected partner strays or even thinks of straying he/she is regarded as the adulterer.

Overall my studies have led me to conclude that God is less worried about the rules (they are there as a helpful guide and not as a prison fence) and more worried about how we treat one another and making the best choices we can in very difficult circumstances.

I think we are here to learn and to grow and suspect that all these things will only make sense when we look back from an eternal perspective.

Imposing a sexless existence for a a partner is like imposing torture....any religious opinion is and will be against that. So we can seek advice in the writings of others,but the reality speaks for itself,this form of starvation is inadmissible and should be punished by imposing 15 days of sexual chores for the offender,under the supervision of the person that\'s been starved.
Now wouldn\'t that be wonderful?

I\'ll take chocolate on mine please!

lol chocolate

I assume you are joking Oddest but I will reply just in case you are not. The Bible never says that sex is for procreation alone. If in any doubt just read the 1 Corinthians 7 passage.

And on a practical note if sex is for procreation alone why would God put the desire in many women to have sex well beyond the age when they can conceive.


Right! But, since you seem rather \'stiff\' on this matter, do you see a \'common-sense\' solution to one spouse using wedlock as a lever against the other spouse by with-holding sex? Perhaps you feel that sexual denial should be used as a punishment / manipulative tool?

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I was trying to respond to a reply about a husband hiding behind a Biblical concept. The bible has a lot of contradictions from one area to the next. Their are areas that talks about the joys of sex and full filling ones desires. We have changed the definition of marriage long before now. For instance if you were raped by someone you had to become their spouse since you had been defiled. I don't think that would fly today.

1 Corinthians 7:2-5
New International Version (NIV)
3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

This ode to sexual consummation can be found in—of all places—the Bible. It is the Song of Solomon, a poem whose origins likely reach back to the pagan love songs of Egypt more than 1,200 years before the birth of Jesus. Biblical interpreters have endeavored through the millennia to temper its heat by arguing that it means more than it appears to mean. It’s about God’s love for Israel, they have said; or, it’s about Jesus’ love for the church. But whatever other layers it may contain, the Song is on its face an ancient piece of erotica, a celebration of the fulfillment of sexual desire.

The poem describes two young lovers aching with desire. The obsession is mutual, carnal, complete. The man lingers over his lover’s eyes and hair, on her teeth, lips, temples, neck, and breasts, until he arrives at “the mount of myrrh.” He rhapsodizes. “All of you is beautiful, my love,” he says. “There is no flaw in you.”
The girl returns his lust with lust. “My lover thrust his hand through the hole,” she says, “and my insides groaned because of him.”

Welcome to EP, Mark.
Yes, I believe \"The Song of Solomon\" is a literal piece which describes a love setting and acts of carnal love between a man and a woman. I believe it was selected for the Bible so both Christians and Jews could rejoice in their sexuality and not have some pious twit tell them otherwise.
I also agree that Corinthians 1 -7 is very wise counsel. The problem with the counsel is that (in legalese) \"there is no penalty clause\" for not adhering to it and the section does not advocate any marriage annulment if one of the spouses should with-hold sex. So: Morally speaking, \'Outsourcing\' as Enna puts it, is still a violation of the marriage, which ironically does permit the other spouse grounds for divorce - and absolution from any blame at that!
It doesn\'t seem fair, does it? But then we all know the old saying.

What angers me about this is what about the spouse that was fulfilling her marital duties and then taken advantage of in ways that is unbecoming of a husband. What about that. A spouse that recites Ephesians 5 over and over again but gives no thought to treating her like a radiant church. A most demoralizing plight ..........

This is like reading erotica..I'm blushing here...lol

Heck my husband will not even kiss me goodbye, goodnight, anything let alone touch me!!! He has been like this since "finding God" I asked him about 2 years ago why he was still married to me...his response....because he made a "promise to God"...nothing about loving me!!! What a kick in the teeth that was....oh well

I can truly relate to your comments

Mine told me the exact same

I think this is a very thoughtful piece of writing. I don't think it is easy to choose to find sex elsewhere. I think for me the level of emotional attachment involved would induce more misery in an already lacking relationship.

I could have written this post myself.

Sigh... what a predicament we're in...

This article is very well written. I've been going through the exact same thought process. Even before reading this article, I've known that #3 would be a temporary solution. I have found a candidate and have massaged her many times to the point of giving her multiple *******. I have not let her touch me yet. But, just the knowledge that I can give such pleasure has increased my confidence tremendously. I walk with my head up high and chest out and feel more manly then ever.
I'm not sure I'm ready to jump to the next phase. What I do now is what my wife is not interested in or not care for. Going to the next phase will be doing things that my wife finds moderately acceptable. I've been with my wife for over 30yrs, she has been my one and only. I've never received or partook in many sexual experiences as my wife finds them "disgusting".
I've had the talk numerous times and eventual the excuses come back. I've learned to live with what I call guilt sex, sex she provides when she realizes I'm frustrated. In many articles, they explain this as controlling sex, where the wife provides just enough sex to keep the husband in place. I've stopped having guilt sex with my wife, I find very little interest now in her. Seeing her nude does nothing any more.
This article has re-enforced what I had predicted would happen going down path #3. But, I am not yet ready to leave my wife. Maybe in 5yrs when our last child is in college and starting his life. But, for now, I am looking for a nsa relationship, and this is mostly to gain experience and to discover what I really want out of life.

The no. 3 option is a great option ...... if you have no standards. Like it or not, one bad deed does not deserve another. I know its wrong to starve someoneof sex, but an affair is not the answer. You're simply exchanging one crappy situation for another. You need to work more on having the courage to leave your spouse. I know it's difficult to walk away from your relationships and belongings, but the sooner you leave the sooner you can work on rebuilding your life.

You have no idea of other people's situations. Sometimes someone's situation is far, far more complex then you could even imagine. I know firsthand. Have a friend and awesome lover for 12 years now and counting. Spouse? brain injury. Nobody home. He was a few times a year guy at the most before that, and sex lasted all of 30 seconds. The Big D is not much of an option either because son would be the only person left to take care of him, and it is a 2-person job.


I wonder if mine is gay or straight. He insists he is straight. But why no sex ? Help

Well thought out. Well articulated. No judgmental flavor to make one grimace and stop reading. Thank You. Still in the struggle. Don't know which ay it will ultimately turn. But thank you.

Singles can move on....husband and wives have alot of stuck issues that they do not resolve. if the relationship is not working not only because of sex but for a ton of other reasons and divorce is out of the question...your may need too get your sexual needs met outside.

If you can you may have too outsource...hugs

Your situation sounds awful...you may have too so you can feel happy and sexy again.

agreed if you are able too be sexual with another the go for it....you appear very unhappy 7

if you are able too outsource fine....make sure its the right one who will give you what you need sexually and emotionally.

my friend goes months without his wife touching him and now he took a stand this morning...the games with family, pretending too love him in front of the parents...as soon as they get home she treats him like a doormat again..he said
he's out of this marriage.

i am sure most of the couples on this blog have tried everything they can too keep the situation together...it is not that complicated to be in relationship too me the key is...
1. communication (find out what is wrong so we can move on with the issue fast)
2. sex is very important its the key too the entire relationship...because we disagree that day he will never feel insecure about the relationship.
3. i do not believe in screaming, throwing things or yelling in relationships. i do not believe in a power head game in relationships....i live a quiet yet fun life if i have too suffer in the relationship then i have too go would not suffer even at a mature age.

Horrid things been said to each other, nasty, treating each other like s*** all day long, fights, control, do not want too be in same room with the person....Not for me, call me old fashioned but i cannot take this lifestyle.

if your in a casual relationship it kinda sorta should be the same way...if your seeing this man or woman once a week avoid complications, fights and there should be communication in the relationship also. its not that difficult folks as long as both know what is expected.....

I can read this story everyday and get a new perspective from it. Now that I'm actively considering outsourcing, and have a potential candidate who has been flirting with me, I find I can't stand my spouse's touch.. the little peck that I get on the cheek, etc. It's too little, and much too late. Now that my head has been turned, I'm no longer on the road to try and "fix" things with my refuser. I'm just done

I wish so much you wouldn't consider. It is such a difficult road to travel. Good luck to you.

if there is no sex or proper affection it might be time too find someone who truly cares for you so you can get the affection and love you need. these relationships are horribly dysfunctional and the bitter, the fights are worse and worse everyday....if you cannot afford a divorce outsourcing may have too be discussed in order for you too feel alive again....good luck.

if its not happening -- there is a problem--couples may need to outsource too other people--not with disgusting people but they will need too find a decent sexual partner and feel alive again.

All I can say is if there is not regular sex then maybe outsourcing should happen...how can anyone live with out sex....its ok if your non sexual just own up too it....you cannot expect the other person who is sexual too be the same way...it does not matter if you are married or not...you cannot make someone not want sex because you do not desire it....outsourcing may have too happen if the wife or husband is being neglected.

What a great post. And while I didn't live in a sexless marriage, I felt my spouse is a person devoid of understanding of my emotions and everything he felt came from his pants. I was with someone that compartmentalized well, thus feeling as though life was good for both of us. But being someone that was having her emotional needs met made it clear that needing more, in a sense, would not solve the problem and emotions don't stop because you ask them to. So, I chose to leave mm to be married, I chose to stay married and resolve myself to at least roommate status. I loved, lived and it was a love story I will never forget.

Im sure Ive read this post hundreds of times, and still I find myself learning as I read this each time.

I wish my life wasnt this way. Wish I could be satisfied with a husband who just does the bare minimum, a husband who manipulates me, one who doesnt meet my needs emotionally as well as sexually. If I were satisfied with the bare minimum, Id be happy. Maybe the issue is me. Maybe Im the issue for not giving in...oh well.

Congratulations on finding your solution

This is a very clear support for choosing point 3. Thank you for your genuine and extended description with which I sympathize deeply. At the same time, I submit that there may be a 4th option.

You offer these three options:
1) stay in your marriage as it is and just put up with things as they are
2) leave your marriage
3) stay in your marriage - and outsource your needs!

I'd say that in some cases, there may also be this possibility:
4) carefully build more understanding and gently find each other

Sexual experience is very different for a man and for a woman. When I started into sexual life, I concentrated entirely on my own experience. Since I am a man, I did what came naturally, and without becoming too graphic, we understand that my own satisfaction in bed was far too short-lived for what my female partners had hoped for.

And so ended one relationship after another, for many years.

I eventually felt that something was not “good enough” and so I started reading, a great deal. I found out how women got excited. What they liked. How they like to be caressed. And where. And how sexual interest can grow very slowly, like waves lapping on the shore that ever so slowly become a tempest. I found out how my partner's excitement can further mine and then again, how my excitement can pass to her and make her ever happier and more excited. And that all this can happen in the time that people call “foreplay”.

When you reach such understanding, the final and crucial five minutes become an entirely different story than what I experienced when I was just starting out. Once we've reached this level, we've both opened the gates to an immense fountain of love. Thoughts disappear, we just feel each other's excitement at the same time as our combined experience. In these fantastic minutes, entirely new possibilities open up. A relationship that has gone numb again can become alive and promising.

You may think that all this is inane fiction. No, it's actual, experienced fact. The crucial point though is that it took much time to get there. In my case, it took nine years from when I started reading about these questions. Yes, years. And a number of previous long-term relationships that had all ended in separation.

I am not proud of what I've had to go through to learn all this. I feel a great deal of shame for the pain that I caused in my previous relationships. But I do wish to let some readers know that there is yet further option to despair, resignation and external outsourcing.

Be well.

You're implicitly assuming that most of the men on here didn't know this stuff already. I suspect you'll find that actually a lot of us did. And personally it gets on my **** when people try to suggest that the problems we face are likely due to the fact that we're sh1t in the sack.

yeaa I was getting more and more upset by that post as I read it..

I need help, this is my situations but my spouse is a nightmare to live with too. He is moody and bad tempered (not physical) anti socail and shows me no attention, but he is also stable and will work all the hours god sends to provide a reasonable standard of living for our family. We have a nice house in a lovely area ideal for families and I couldn't afford to run this house on my own. I did get a FWB but he was married to so that was an extra layer of guilt. I just don't know what to do but I can't live this rest of my life like this.
I have no contact with my mum or siblings so have very little real sustainable support. I just don't know what to do.

Great read! Definitely food for thought.

Great read! Thank you for posting. It is clear that you truly understand the life of an ILIASM.

A long post but food for thought

I can only hope that, before taking the advice of the poster, you try to determine why the other person has lost their desire.

Really? What a surprise! Imagine that! Of course, none of us has ever considered that for a second . . .! How illuminating!

Actually, from what I have seen and experienced people seem to be more interested in validation of intent to cheat or end the marriage than trying to fix the problem.

By the way, though I don't agree with your suggestion of outsourcing I can at least respect the fact that you gave a rather well-thought-out view of it. Wouldn't have expected such a sophomoric reply. Kudos.

"from what I have seen and experienced people seem to be more interested in validation of intent to cheat or end the marriage than trying to fix the problem. " That is pure rubbish.

I think you are personally feeling sensitive about the fact that your wife may choose to outsource and thus only too willing to place the blame on the person choosing to outsource.

In SMs, the problem lies with the Refuser being unable or unwilling to fix the problem. That is where it needs to start.

What if your FWB is already very close to you? Like I've developed a friendship over the last 5 years with a man I adore. He is also friends with the spouse (too much familiar from the sexless to the control to the mental abuse.....). FWB insists he's a better friend than a dating partner and has not dated anyone since I've become friends with him (he is single). He has one other female friend who is much older but seems she may be in similar crappy marriage but she is at a much different stage of life than I am and he's never let on that anything is going on there and in fact recently told me at one point years ago her husband questioned his intentions, which he clarified were nothing more than friendship. I flirt with FWB and have not scared him away. In fact, he often pokes fun at me and my crappy *** marriage. There is no one in the world I would consider having sex with besides him, and knowing our relationship has managed this long and grown this much.....well, I still would never bring it up and I most certainly would not want to gamble with our friendship as he means the world to me. I flirt heavy with him, and he does flirt back at times, but he is a man and so hard to read. I know I mean alot to him as is obvious by his actions, but I really have no clue if the feelings I have are mutual. And I do think he would never cross a line since he is also friends with the spouse, but to get this far....I mean, he lives 2 hrs away but I communicate with him daily, we spend time together alone but also with other people. Any advice? Thank you!

this has being a wake up call for me

From OP story this is something it is not clear for me.
Could be also because I am not native English speaker.

*Unlike a current poster, I cannot imagine a situation where you invite your new partner openly to your home and insist your spouse agree to you bonking each other silly in the spare room!! (And this may be very judgemental of me, but IMO, if your FWB agreed to such a thing, s/he could hardly be considered a "quality person"!!)*

Shortly if your new Friend will accept having an affair with you but with your spouse consent then he/she is not a quality person??
Honestly it will be better if you do something with spouse consent then without.
Otherwise divorce is a better option.

My experience.
I was not in sexless but in low sex marriage.
That means we did sex from time to time but always intercourse was short because she did not like it.
It was for my pleasure only.

So, I met other woman exactly as @wayupnorthincanada describe bellow my post.
I arrange a vacation for us when my wife was not home but I did not felt comfortable at all with the setting and I could not relax as I want it.
It was like driving again a good car after you walk for years by foot.
I felt clumsy, too excited and afraid that I won't be able to satisfy her properly.
Still the general feeling was good and I tried different sexual things and she look open from sexual point of view.

Now back home, I become unhappy about our sex life and after a while when me and my wife went together I fail to perform with her.
I become scared and I jump to google, in order to read about about, so I ended up finding "performance anxiety" and about guys that are concern about their performance in bed to the point that they are not able to relax.
That means sexual failure enter in their heads and that it.

I simply fall to the ground and become depressed.
Because I was to the point to loose everything and I am the one that bring money into the house my wife change for a couple of months and we visit some erotic shows, buy erotic clothes for her, some toys and so on.
It was OK for a short period of time and we had some different sexual play.

Unfortunately after that she loose again her interest and again we are not having sex.
The difference now is that I also have confidence problem and I am reluctant to engage in sexual activities with a woman.

So, bottom line is that after years when sex is low or nonexistent for men that once enjoy it then bring sex back is not exactly a switch on.
I think things could be restored gradually with the right woman but not behind wife back.
This situation could be very stressful.

Sebis: Thank you for a very valuable post! Your first post about not inviting a FWB into your home makes good sense - no sense insulting your loved one! Better to cut the relationship and move out!
In your last post you tell of your "performance anxiety" - that's good to know... so many people might be able to just have an affair, and go on with marriage, but living with the consequences are something both you and I (I think - haven't stepped out that far) would likely have problems with.
Thanks again.

I am right in the middle of 2.

After three years of completely sexless marriage, a wife who is married to her job to the point of obsession, and feeling generally like a doormat in many ways, a part of me had subconsciously started looking around anyway. Each day used to feel like another lost day in this short life.

After constantly rejection in the beginning, I lost all interest in sex myself, so gave up trying. Even when we tried (which was always because I thought we needed to break the pattern), I just had no desire left for her whatsoever - I couldn't even 'perform' to any degree. It was traumatic as hell. I thought something was wrong with me --- I thought I was LL, or had other problems -- and it was driving me crazy. In the face of it, all she did was work -- weekends, nights, all the time. Not even a massage, heck.

And then - out of the blue, the third person walks in, and within a day shows what I have been missing. Not just sex, but everything - the way she cared about me, paid attention to what I was saying and remembering them for later, kindness, empathy -- it's mindblowing. To make matters more interesting - her aspirations, life-path are exactly as mine. Needless to say, it dissipated all my worries about being LL or having any issues --- the sex has been incredibly good and all my confidence is suddenly back.

It instantly became clear to me --- that if this hadn't happened, I would have been stuck in the same situation for another 3-4 years. My self-esteem would have been at the lowest.

Then I decided to I tell my wife that I am leaving the marriage - she did exactly what enna30 says above --- she started trying her best to convince me. She wants to change herself for the better, she thinks sex can be fixed etc etc. However, I did try to sleep with her after --- and the same problem --- completely no desire for her left anymore.

Can one simply burnout? Is it possible for constant rejection to lead to total apathy?

I feel terribly bad for her, and the sense of obligation is a killer. And yet, I know in my heart that going back to her wouldn't be the honest choice for my own self. It would hurt the 'other person', when she's not to blame for anything whatsoever, and it would be an act of 'kindness' for my wife rather than true desire.

It is a complicated situation though. However it pans out.

I think many years of rejection can make you resentful towards that person to the point where you no longer desire them, could be a mechanism to cope with the rejection. I'm definitely not a psychologist but I imagine that is the reason...I feel the same way with my husband and I haven't cheated...although the thought has been on my mind a few times too many! After 2 years of a sexless marriage, but many more years of very infrequent sex I don't feel the same!
I don't have that passion, the burning desire, heck, sometimes I have to close my eyes and mentally go somewhere else when I had never had the need to do that with anyone before! Sometimes I need a glass of wine so it's a bit more palatable.I love sex and love to enjoy its many facets, but the many years of rejection, do not help!

Its literally that, I think --- that I simply stopped seeing her as someone I would desire. The sad thing is, I continue to (and probably always will) feel a 'love' for her in a way where the trauma that she's going through is making me hate myself, and making me want to buckle and go back. However, something deep inside me tells me that it would be a mistake because the core problem of desire is going to be very hard to 'fix' now. So it would continue to be sexless, and eventually run into problems again.

Its hard because its impossible for me to know if the desire would have ever come back (say, even if she changed her attitude somewhat). And without it, its just a ticking clock --- its bound to go south at some point. So better sooner rather than later. I just sometimes hope that I am not being completely loony about this…

"Is it possible for constant rejection to lead to total apathy? "

Absolutely. And only in extremely rare instances will a person be able to rekindle the initial feelings in the relationships once it's past the point of no return. It's done. Bury it and move on.

There is a point where the conscious mind is no longer involved. If it were so, you could consciously turn it on again like a water spigot. It doesn't work that way. You may at first push aside whatever desire but constant rejection does the job for you. Something inside shuts down and even your conscious mind cannot take it back to square one.

Narcissistic Perversions id the term we\'re looking at here,any form of manipulation that underminds the confidence and self esteem of any individual in any way,is related to this technique that even the Army uses,Corporate companies use it too.
Your wife uses her work as a screen,mine uses sleep as the screen....the sex at the beginning was the bait,nothing else....you rose to the bait and got hooked,we all did......then the hook is skillfully removed as you flap and suffocate,and finally the blow that will kill you will be silent and invisible.
Even your option to jump back into the place you called home,with warm caring,affectionate exchanges with a newfound partner....you\'ll still have the gaping wound in your jaw that\'ll remind you everyday of how you were slaughtered on the slab.The deep hurt felt will rise to the surface and bash you into being the \'Victim\',your new lover will heal the wounds,and to top off her dasterly scheme,your ex-wife will sleep or hook up with one or most of your friends,behind your back at first,then blatantly out in the open.......this will be the final blow.
But I have kept my libido in training with daily ************ sessions,just like an athelete would force himself to train,I do the same thing to keep in trim.NEVER lose the interest in sex,it\'s the \'Redline Conductor\' in any man\'s life,and for many women too. I look at photos of my lady ,from the keleidescope days when everything was so colourful,I use many scenarios to build up my initial desire that I have for her,normal sex,rough sex,forced sex,rape even....then I can see over the barrier that has been built by her to hem me into being a submissive poodle. But don\'t turn to drink like many men do in despair....wake up your libido everyday,shake it and slap it back to life,(Pun intended!),then when it\'s your call to be back on the pitch,you\'ll be ready run,jump and SCORE!

And never forget,even a new partner has the same faculty to detach her mind from her body,but as the \'Savoir\' within your new equation,and you as the \'Victim\',your ex-wife will be enthralled with her \'Persecutor\' role,claiming thousands by splitting your lifelong efforts into just half......and the final outcome? If your new girl is smart,she\'ll build you back into something even stronger,richer and full of confidence so that you can be free of the dark clouds that once painted your skies.....or she in turn will switch and use her feminine powers to subdue you into a begging puppy as you shower her with gifts and surprises in the hope that she\'ll remain the lover you always dreamt of.....if you get over the nightmares that\'ll haunt you from the first unison.

But there\'s one option,turn your reluctant wife over to the Gorillas,you know,the insatiable men that don\'t take \'NO\' for an answer,because \'NO\' for them is like her saying \'**** me harder\'.....then you\'ll see how she\'ll be much nicer to you.....if not,call the Gorillas!

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Very well written, and thought out, Enna.

How refreshing to find something objective on the subject! And timely for me, as I am having to seriously consider this as an option as I re-arrange my plan. Thanks Enna!

I thank you for getting to the point in MY life! I haven't 'stepped out' yet, but the frequency of affection at home is constantly causing me to gnaw at my leash. I wish I had some magic words to help her realize how this conundrum could be prevented.

Question: Does your spouse realize where you are in your life and relationship? If so, what was his response? If not, is he still happy?

I can\'t even get a hug without being pushed away with an elbow,the once hot kisses have now turned into dry pecks....but as she sulks into her Narcissistical Perverted scenario..........but the influence on the children is where the real damage is done,have a look at this;

The sensitive, guilt-ridden children in the family learn to meet the parent’s needs for gratification and try to get love by accommodating the whims and wishes of the parent. The child’s normal feelings are ignored, denied and eventually repressed in attempts to gain the parent’s “love.” Guilt and shame keep the child locked into this developmental arrest. Their aggressive impulses and rage become split off and are not integrated with normal development. These children develop a false self as defense mechanism and become co-dependent in relationships. The child\'s unconscious denial of their true self perpetuates a cycle self-hatred, fearing any reminder of their authentic self.

Your wife could also be a victim of her own parents over protective gauntlet....your wife might not know it but she\'s the victim who\'s suffering,locked away as a little girl in a tower of guilt and remorse,with a self esteem even lower than yours.....maybe you\'re not losing out at all here!?

You always have such wonderful words of wisdom. Something to think about...

Thank you so much for writing this...I chose option 3...and today I started option 2 signing legal papers after over a year separation. I do see my friend..I do have feelings for him...not sure if he will ever leave his wife...I know I could not stay in my marriage...but I also hate not having access to the new man in my life...so I've traded one type of loneliness for another ......my suggestion...don't let your marriage get to a point that it lacks intimacy on very level..nurture before there's so much space between you that it is as wide as theagrand Canyon.

I too chose #3. I've had the best sex ever and the most fun! And even though we have been going on/off for 3 years now...my job/his job...distance....is a major issue as much
as discretion is. I lost 2 family members last year, spiraled into depression, then heavy drinking. I hadn't seen my "fwb" since December and this is the longest we've gone without...just plain without. Last time I got a txt from him, he practiacally begged me to come over. I so want to get back into that "zone" I was in with him. I miss the sex like a drug! But having a hard time jumping back on that horse. I've even told him to find someone new, who lived closer to him. How do you reestablish a connection with a FWB if they think you've moved on?

"When your spouse is busily doing all things possible to please you, a sense of obligation (and possibly increased guilt) can trap you even further."

Right, because then you cut off the FWB and try to become devoted again. But it doesn't last. I assure you. The spouses only kicking into panic mode when they realize they are losing control. Stepping up the game in order to lull you back. My episode lasted three years. In actuality, the good behavior and sex only lasted about 6 months and then tapered off. After a year, it was back to normal celibacy. However, I struggled with guilt at first. Then realizing I had been duped, anger. Then back to, I can fix this again. I did it once, I can do it again. But the FWB was long gone. Cheating is taxing on your mental health. You have to be careful in all you do. Keeping track of emails, deleting texts, secret accounts and disposable phones, whew. It takes effort to re-establish or find another FWB. There's disappointment, rejection, risk, etc. It took me an additional two years of no sex to hit the point where I said all that was worth it in order to be sexually active again. Now that I am, it's great, and I won't fall for the reconciliation again. It won't last and and I am not getting any younger.

Wait. There's a different type of marriage?

I too chose option 3, and I am in the heat of it right now. In fact, as soon as I finish typing this, I am going out to meet her (my wife is out of town). I started out about two years ago, going to prostitutes. I totally rationalized it in my mind as more clear-cut and less complicated than a full-blown emotional affair. I just desperately wanted to feel the sensation of a warm human female next to me, and to experience sex in some context other than my computer **** and my metacarpal phalanges. (That got too desperate and lonely after months and months, even though I didn't have to worry about respecting myself in the morning).

I had mixed experiences overall, ranging from extremely satisfying sex to getting ripped off. Last spring I met street walker who is half my age (I'll call her CC), with whom I had some particularly fun times. In a short time she became for me more than just another anonymous face on the street, and I became for her more than just another john. We just sort of clicked, in a lighthearted and totally relaxed way.

I lost track of her (the phone number I had for her stopped working), but thought of her often over the subsequent months. I did not pursue this version of "option 3" very often, but when I did, I found myself comparing my experiences to those I had with CC. Fast forward a few months: Last December I was out on a foggy night, and ended up reconnecting with her. I was SO SURPRISED at how happy I was to see her, and to see the enthusiasm with which she ran up to my car and seemed happy to see me. She said she had thought and wondered about me. My b.s. filters were of course interpreting this has her blowing so much smoke, but in the months since then we have been spending a LOT of time together.

It is a weird kind of thing that I don't quite know how to define. She is no longer on the street and doing tricks, and has gotten her own apartment, and has gotten in a mental health support system for counseling and addiction (typical of many prostitutes, she had a pretty horrific upbringing and has ongoing struggles with substance abuse). There is no longer anything like a quid pro quo of money exchanged for sex, though I do help her out when I can, to the extent of my limited resources. I see her 2-3 times a week, mostly on my lunch hour, and when my wife and family are out of town. The sex is AMAZING. Even after a few months, I continue to marvel at how starved I had been for physical contact and affection and mutually enjoyable intimacy. It is such a far cry from the self-loathing I felt when I eagerly accepted the begrudgingly-doled out "duty sex" my wife gave me, just under two years ago (the last time we had sex). CC asserts that this is the first time anyone has really paid attention to her sexual needs, and seems to genuinely enjoy it as much as I do. She also has repeatedly expressed her gratitude at having someone to talk to that is not "batshit crazy" (e.g. her criminal-filled family, and the circle of friends and acquaintances from similar backgrounds that have been her entire social support system for her whole life).

The words "it's complicated" do not even begin to summarize the status of this thing. But for now, knock wood, it is worth it to me. I have no idea what kind of longer-term trajectory to expect in this type of relationship. I certainly don't endorse my experience as a template or example for anyone else to follow. But it works for me. So far, at least.

Brutha, you and I have a lot in common. I really liked your story.

Thanks! I have a few boundaries and limits I have set with CC, mainly in terms of the extent to which I will help her and her friends/family (the "batshit crazy" ones). No financial help for them; mainly giving them rides here and there, or driving CC when she needs to sort out some family drama, and then picking her up later. Last night we bumped right up against one of the boundaries: Went to pick up her friend from a hotel room, gave her a ride to another part of town, grabbed a bite to eat and picked the friend up later to return to her room. Found out later the friend was totally b.s.-ing on the pretext, and it was a simple purchase from the--er, ah, "subterranean economy" (e.g. extremely illegal substance). The friend wanted to avoid being seen by people she owed money to from similar transactions. Now, I am fully aware of the types of things that go on in that world, but I do not want to participate in them in even the most minimal way (having had my share of that lifestyle at a much younger age). Words were had, and lines were drawn. It remains to be seen whether those limits will be pushed or stretched again.

That said: the sex was, once again, simply amazing. Connections on so many levels, with unmatched intensity. Though I have to be VERY careful not to let that feeling blind me to the risks I could face in this situation.

You seem to know the dangers but you keep going back. I feel into a similar relationship and kept it up because the sex was awesome. Like a drug, I just had to keep it going, no matter what the danger level was. I thought I could handle it, until the day it became too close. Not to go into the whole story but I do want to warn you, when it happens, it will happen fast. Unless you are lucky, as I was, you will get trapped into her world, by the cops, her family, the people surrounding them, all of them. As I read our story, I see the greatest danger as being one of them or her stealing from you. People in the drug culture have different morals, different ideas of what's acceptable and ultimately, the pursuit of drugs will cloud their judgement, no matter what their feelings for you are. They will, drag.you.down. When they do, it will get close or land right on top of your home life.

You have to end it with here and find some one else. Trust me on this one. You're going to miss the sex and miss her. Yup, that's a given. Take care of her one last time and then end it. I think when it's over you'll feel an extreme sense of relief. It takes time to create a healthy FWB situation and you have to communicate often with her. When the feelings get too strong, for either, you have to back off and take a break. Remember what the relationship is all about. If either of you can't control it, it will destroy you and what you've built. Plain and simple.

Over time, you'll find someone else to have a healthy sex relationship. One that does not involve risks like the ones you're taking now.

That moment might have come yesterday. I think I may have lost her. I don't know what happened so my mind is filling in blanks like I lost her to the legal system or a medical situation or worse.

It sounds like you have the voice of experience and I would love to have someone with experience talk me down from the ledge, because holy **** I am in free fall right now. I am a grown-*** man and I can hardly even...

(will be away from comp. and phone etc. until tonight...but dude can I contact you somehow?)

Step carefully my friend....I\'ve known men to falter,trip and fall to their doom thinking that love was real from a Girl Trickster,(I\'ll say that as not to offend your lover). The famous French politician that got caught in a hotel room with a maid,so called maid,then from the heights of political power and being the boss of the IMF,he plummeted to the depths of shame and disgrace.
Not wanting to put you in the same boat but I\'ve seen friends empty their bank accounts faster than a dustbinman empties your trash,they splashed out wads of cash for the little poor abused girl that had to be a street walker to survive......the sex was amazing,then it became free,they fell headlong over heels in love,she stayed when he paid,then when the money dried up......the tone changed,she returned back on the streets and now it was not his wife walking down the street with him,but the local prostitute who\'d had everyone in town.My friend now lives alone with no money and no girl.
Keep it clean,don\'t go over the borderline and believe anything,not even your own feelings as it is those very feelings that will set the final trap. Enjoy,but Beware!

Thank you for your comment; it is good counsel. It has been a few months since I last posted on this thread, but I am still seeing this girl. She spent 2 months in custody on a probation revocation from some old soliciting charges, so for a time earlier this summer I had to grimly marvel at the fact that I was actually in two sexless relationships at the same time!

It is still kind of a roller coaster - the amount of energy it takes to sustain as well as hide a secret life of this magnitude can be staggering at times.

I am in counseling now, with a man who I really think can help me focus my thoughts. I am certainly not going to end my marriage in order to end up with my girlfriend, but it is going to end, regardless. I do want it to end with as much respect and dignity for my wife (and what we used to have) as it is possible to salvage from this whole situation. My wife knows things \"aren\'t right\", and haven\'t been for a while. But I am not ready at this point, or possibly EVER, to dump the full truth on her.

My girlfriend understands the basic math of my money situation, and the precariousness of my \"availability\" situation...but your words are well-heeded. She sometimes brings out the lament of \"I\'d HATE to have to go back to making money that way\". I usually respond that I would hate it too, it would be heartbreaking--but that I also have no illusions about exactly who we were and what we were doing when we first met (sw and john), and that I have ALWAYS known that reverting to that life is one of our possible outcomes.

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P.S No guilt.....wish I had done it sooner

My husband was abusive for year. Then it happened. one day he hurt me and as i left crying like usual I decided to bring lunch to a aquantance of mine. A tall model esk blone man with well............amazingness in bed I would soon find out.I left my husband..... We continued this for months sleeping over and having a hell of a time texting each other all day. he was great. but sadely he was single for a reason, he lacked personal intimacy...and eventually i relised I had gone from one selfish man to another. But HELL the SEX was Great

Thank you for sharing, I've never outsourced myself. I never seriously thought about that option until today. Although I did, at least in my mind almost do so a couple of years ago. It was just a flirty dinner with a co-worker, and realistically, even had I responded nothing likely would have happened. But even that left me feeling guilty for months.

Again, thanks for sharing your experience, it's given me a different perspective.

This is a fascinating topic...it's amazing to see how many people can relate so closely to what you've written, in their own unique ways... I personally am not married so I cannot relate to this in exactly the same way, however I have been in relationships where sex was a very important part of the relationship and in others where it was virtually absent altogether.

In my opinion, this discussion opens a door for another topic altogether: monogamy. It seems like to most of the people who responded here that the notion of telling your wife/husband about your sexual needs was simply out of the question. There is an expectation to be monogamous, but no flexibility when basic needs are not fulfilled by the partnership. What would happen if, instead of waiting to be caught red handed (which others have wisely stated is most likely to eventually occur), we approached the topic with our significant others?

I'd be interested to hear what people's thoughts are on monogamy in general? As intelligent sentient beings we are perhaps wired to bond to one other individual, someone with whom trust is established, friendship, and hopefully love. But as animals in our basic primal sense, does it make sense for us to be with only one other person physically? Having an affair, or "outsourcing" physical intimacy from a monogamous relationship has become extremely taboo - I'm curious how that would change (IF it would change at all) if we could accept the idea of polyamory as simply a healthy solution for certain people. I know it would never work for everyone, like anything in life - it is based on individuals and on specific relationships.

I think that outsourcing and exploring "external" intimacy can be a very exciting and certainly satisfying element in a relationship - for both parties. If it's hidden it becomes complicated, because any feelings of pleasure and joy become entwined with guilt and fear of being caught. But for a couple who has simply lost passion, inviting a 3rd member into the mix could potentially reignite things, and allow everyone to rediscover themselves and each other. I think your idea of outsourcing can be valuable not as an escape for one person but as a tool for strengthening the relationship as a whole.

Anyway, just a thought.

I'm glad to hear life is good for you, now...that's the ultimate goal, isn't it? :)

No sex here. My wife just pushes me away. To her, its dirty, don't want it, don't talk about it. Any excuse to get mad at me for years, like, there is a dish not put away in the kitchen or I didn't fold all the laundry yet. I understand it now. She is a cerebral pathological narcissist. That means she hates physical intimacy because it could reveal weakness or dependency or need. She has to keep her image of being totally in control and hating others as dogmatically inferior. I quit. I exercise to get in great shape, I am extra horny, can do it every day, but no outlet. God played a joke on me. I loose.

I have the same model of \'Lady Dragon\' at home! Everything I say is contradicted,a crumb on the work top,I make a coffee and she passes behind me with a sponge.....if I touch her it hurts,or simply get the elbow.....but the only thing I can think of now is tying her up to the bed as I read her some fairy tales and **** her brains out in the process!
The word \'No!\' fifty times a day are like nails in a coffin,and in that coffin lies my battered and half dead libido!
I\'m 54 but look 37 because I\'ve kept my body and mind as clean as I could....didn\'t turn to drink like many men due to NO SEX,but said to myself,\"If you want to get down on the dance floor ever again,then you\'d better be ready for the call boy!\".....so I am!

Very interesting. Thank you.

Interesting ! I am in a loveless, sexless marriage. My husband has aspergers and i long to be loved and touched. My husband hates touch and is totally emotionally detached. If we didnt have children i would have left long ago

Amazing!!! Thank you...haven't cheated, I am in a sexless marriage, have done everything and tried everything, I've given up..I'm left with anger,frustration,sadness and emptiness. Cheating is becoming more and more of a temptation even though this are not my principles, but I can't bring myself to do it..thoughts of guilt and I haven't even done anything....
Thank you for sharing, it gives me plenty to think about, but it also reminds me of many things I already feel!

You need to check your guilt and your principals into a hotel and leave them there or you will die lonely, not alone, just lonely. You think you have regrets now? How about when you realize you spent your whole life in celibacy jut to please someone who didn't care? Take it from someone whose enjoying the best sex life I've had in a decade, you're not getting any younger.

That's exactly the anger part!! I already regret wasting 18 years and afraid to loose anymore,,,but I have very young children and that's really what keeps me here.
As much as I wish and desire for that intense passion I'm not sure I want to add a layer of guilt on top of the regret and make things even worse.
I've thought of leaving, which to me, it seems to be the healthiest result for everyone involved without adding drama ( many times daydreaming of the day when kids are old enough and I can be free).
I may just have to hold back my animalistic instinct for just a few more years even though I agree with you, definetly not getting any younger..although I doubt years can put off the fire in me.
As for you, I am happy to hear you are enjoying the best sex ever and I have no doubt that it is. I'm certain my time will come too...eventually! Nothing is forever.....good or bad!

I am also a woman in a sexless marriage of 18 yrs. My constant insecurity has resulted in keeping myself thin and attractive and my husband is proud to show me off in public, but his affection at home is brief and we only have sex on our anniversary. It has basically devastated me. I love him so much, and he claims to feel the same way. But really I'd do anything for him. He won't even screw me! And he's totally capable of it. I WILL not turn 50 and wonder why I've wasted myself and my body on someone who didn't appreciate me. At the first opportunity I will 'outsource'. Life is short.

I just can not get over how many of us are out here want sex. Not just want sex but wanting sex from our spouse. There should be a drop box in each city where we can place our info and start our own club.

I'm starting to wonder how many people over 40 are having sex. Anabyrd is right..............Life is short !

Anabyrd, I feel for you...and yes I totally agree with you, life is short!
If you are able to deal with the guilt or have no guilt that is wonderful! I wish I could.
Another thing I think about...if I were to outsource, I think it would accentuate my current situation, making it even more unbearable to deal with and wanting to just get out of the marriage, which there would be nothing wrong with that if I didn't have young children.

I DID turn 50, and realized that 8 years of no sex was not the way I wanted to continue for the rest of my life...fortunately, I have a close single friend who has flirted with me for literally years... last night I told him I'm ready for FWB. I can't wait..

I also don't have children, so I don't feel like I'm going to cause anyone else any grief.. we'll see..

Well said!

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Very well said and thought out.

I just checked...I was right, and Victorians too!

Well written and thoughtful. Thank you. I am in this tragic relationship where I love and respect my partner but there is virtually no physical expressions of our love. After a gentle caress this morning that ended abruptly to divert back to the iPad (in the bedroom, no place for as iPad) I asked what happened..."Are you trying to make me feel guilty?" was the reply. No, I was trying to find out what happened. My solution is no solution at all but it helps a little. I visit a masseuse in her home. I receive a very intimate massage and am brought to ******. There's no love, no friendship and no feeling. It's just a commercial transaction. I don't want to disrespect my partner but I don't want to live like a monk either. My solution is far from what I really yearn for. I wish enna30 and bazzar all the best for their future. I haven't checked but I think they are Aussies (like me) because of the way bazzar spells "arse".

Ah...the FWB scenario. Alas, I have been there. It was great and it was awful. Found a guy at work who was in a similar sitch. It went on for 3 years. He fell in love and I did not. He got bitter and the relationship ended. He went a little mental. And, I ended up in HR for sexual harassment. It was retaliation by him and he was fired.
I had a few other part time gigs...mostly very brief affairs. Never with someone at work again.

Never get your honey where you get your money.

I really want to outsource, but it is not as easy as it sounds. I want to leave my relationship, buyt want to finish school and better myself first... Very hard for married folks to find willing partners, especially males(who are often thought of as creepy, scheming players). When we are low on self esteem and barely associate with the outside world, its even harder. It is also against my nature to cheat, but I cannot suppress the primal need for affection. As many here may know, having just a "roommate" is not enough in a relationship. Just so confusing...