Compromised Sexual ex<x>pression.

That is too narrow a scope to use for analyzation.My parents are both asexual but it is not an abusive/drug induced/alcohol induced relationship.Though i absolutely must agree with this "The spouse of someone with a destructive addiction problem is unlikely to be banging them. The spouse of someone who is treating them badly will not be screwing them. The abused spouse will not (willingly) be engaging in sex with the partner."

well some men may have that madonna ***** complex wich keeps them from having sex once they marry the female ....

Ahhhh. Now we're talking, if "the person gets help for it".







A key and pivotal point.







If the person recognises they have an issue.



It they take ownership of the issue



If they embrace the treatment for their issue



- then, there is some hope of a good outcome.







The point is though, that all these matters come back to the choice of the person with the issue. And if they choose to do nothing then nothing changes.







And YOU cannot do their work for them.







Would it be acceptable to leave him if he lost a leg ? Sure it would be, you are leaving a dude who is not meeting your needs, his missing limb is irrelevant.







He has a pyschological situation. Is it ok to leave. Sure it is, you are leaving someone who is not meeting your needs, his psychological state is irrelevant.







Tread your own path

I know that for a long time before we actually broke up the ex and I were not having sex, but the lack of sex came abuot because the realtionship was just about over.



I came across this group becasue I was doing a search on OCPD. One thing led to another and here I am :) But one person was not getting any becasue of the other person's disability. I felt sorry for both of them but to me seemed that it was the OCPD keeing them from having sex.



I just assumed that sex was always the last thing to go, the thing that went because something that came before that went away. Or else it was due to physiological or some kind of psychological traume.



This is something that confuses me. People here say that they LIASM but for most of you I'm assuming that the intimacy is gone right? I think that if the intimacy were still there then in most cases even if the sex changed it would still be there. And I think that perhaps the intimacy is gone because something made it impossible to have that intimacy.



I am in a relationship where there is no intimacy. So naturally (at least to me) there is no sex. But he is trying. He has said that tomorrow we can fool around. I just don't see how I can do that without feeling like a hooker if we have no intimacy, and I'm not looking for that type of relationship. In our case the underlying factor is guilt. Guilt over the fact that his wife died and he was not able to save her.



He has guilt, but he is not a bad person. If he lost a leg would it be acceptable to leave him? His is a psychological situation. Does that make a difference? What if the person gets help for it?



intimacy --> sex

problem = no intimacy = no sex is



That's my take on things.

I say if u can't just b with1" then b a cdang monkey n swing. But don't leave"us" out in the dark. We have a rite to no weither our(others) rt messing around or not!

I suppose in my marriage the absence of sex is a symptom of my wife's unhappiness that I got her an iPhone. And after she asked for it, and received it, she then complained about the bill. We can afford it, so that wasn't the issue. During the same conversation she complained about our purchase of a car six years ago and whether it was a good deal. I believe she is so tightly wound about finances that it impacts her views on life. But sex with a spouse is free.

What is one to make of a marriage which, though peppered with emotional infidelity ( and physical infidelity with one person, second is denied), cannot dissolve feelings of connected mutual (read: for the kids??) partnership. My distrust and reevaluation of our wildly divergent political stances have created an initial re-distancing. His brutal job has encouraged stress, fatigue, and "ships passing in the night" scenarios. Adding my hormonally-induced libido issues, the result for me is a great deal of concern about the solvency/viability of our marriage. He patiently abides. A difficult hurdle to overcome, when opportunity and interest do not mesh. Is this a sign of a larger problem? Or a bump in the road. Honestly, at this time, I could lean either way. However, we have three beautiful children, who we both adore, who did not sign up for this. Anyone with similar scenarios?

"Most dysfunctional marriages (whatever the cause of the dysfunction) usually result in the cessation of sexual expression. " - IMO, that is a universal truth, no matter the reason for the dysfunction the result is the same: lack of sexual expression in the marriage/partnership.



"We ILIASM people often start trying to deal with just the lack of sexual expression rather than the whole situation." - That is also a true and very relevant statement. We come here thinking "if I could just get my sex life revived, everything would be okay". We are so focused on the lack of sex, we are blind to the dysfunctions that exist within the relationship. All the ugliness and misery of the dysfunctional relationship is hiding behind the sexlessness issue.



Ultimately, the lack of sexual expression is the big red flag that indicates: IT'S OVER.



And the only thing left is the two awful choices: to stay or to go.

Excellent post Baz, and many excellent contributions. Thanks to you all.



Sexual expression, specifically it’s dysfunction, is the problem that has brought the vast majority of us here. But it is not THE problem. It is a symptom.



The problem originates in the fundamental goals of a marriage, or relationships for that matter. The understanding of LOVE ITSELF.



That special feeling we call love. How can we define it? We don’t know what it looks like, but we know it when we see it. We can’t make it happen, but we all want it. Further complicating it’s manifestation in our lives…. It takes two.



When we fall in love, we want certain feelings from it, and equally importantly, we want to give certain feelings to the one we love. We all have that fundamental goal at the beginning. The dysfunction arises when one looses sight of that goal, becomes intentionally or unintentionally neglectful of providing that special feeling to the one we love. We want that feeling, we know that providing that feeling is the key to receiving it, but it stops anyway, That is the paradox.



Life’s rewards are commensurate with your efforts. No efforts – no reward.



What exactly creates that special feeling varies a bit from person to person, and more so between the genders. Certainly things like; trust, caring, respect, compassion, kindness, security, appreciation, safety, comfort, affection, understanding and forgiveness top the list. Also just as necessary, is the desire to explore and uncover your partner’s wants, needs and their own specific desires, in order to fulfill them, and provide that special feeling.



The expression of those feelings, the way we give what our partner craves, and in turn, hope and expect to receive what we crave, is the dynamic of love.



Yes it is said that sex is the glue that binds a relationship together. Because, it is an expression of those feelings. But in itself, does not make the relationship. Thus the divorcing couple that has sex right until the end, or even after D day. Fun? Sure or it wouldn’t happen. Solve the problem of dysfunctional love? Never. Fulfilling? It’s just physical gratification. Just sex for the sake of sex.



This is why it is so hard once one partner has lost the desire to nurture love, to ever be able to repair the marriage. It can happen with or without sex.



Life provides lessons in all things, particularly adversities. Most of us are here seeking these lessons. Most of us will not repair that dysfunctional love, and broken marriage. Once only one is putting in the effort, the odds are pretty low. Sad but true.



If we are attentive students, these lessons will enable us to find our path in the future. Not surprisingly, those that have been through the adversity and pain of dysfunctional love, and learned these lessons, and find their paths coming together, make excellent partners to share that journey together…. The journey to happily ever after.



I count myself among the fortunate ones here. To have found another survivor, now armed with the knowledge to find her path, our paths now joined as we journey together. I rejoice that each of our beams of light became strong again, reaching straight to heaven, and now merged into one, amazingly intense beam of light.



I hope you all find your path.

** Of course lack of sex is a symptom. But it's also a direct problem. Maybe that's the paradox? **



I don't think that's what the author meant. I think she meant, Why is it that loving and perfectly FUNCTIONAL marriages often lose sexual energy? I agree that this happens often, so I guess I disagree with the ILIASM consensus that waning of sexual interest signals marital dysfunction as a rule.



JG

Obviously, during my journey in SM, I asked myself, "Is there anything else about my spouse that is annoying to me other than her low libido?" Honestly, I did not find anything that I disliked intensely. A distant second was that she seemed to not take most things in life too seriously, and easily accepted life as it was offered to her (except the hubby's advances), i.e., she did not seem to have strong feelings about anything. In the converse direction, too, there aren't many intense complaints. She rightly points out that I am a perfectionist and that causes me some misery. It's not that I do not have negative thoughts about her, but all of it is directly related to the SM. ILIASM is very confident of more sinister serpents always hidden behind a SM, but I have not found any deadly ones thus far. OK, so she snores a little, and, by her account, so do I.

I now realise that my husband and I both had issues with sex and it was on the wane before our wedding. Of course sex usually fades away as a couple approach divorce and it is a symptom of relationship breakdown but what of the many cases here where it was problematic all along and limps on for decades?

It is often about power and control, passive aggression and resentment.

My husband associated sex with secrecy and being forbidden so I did not appeal as he was meant to do it with me.

A psychiatrist told me that many couples have very little sex - they just presume that everyone is doing it often. Cold comfort.

Awesome post man! You really hit on something that we all need to contemplate.

Get ready for Mr. Curiosity to swoop in here and educate us about the statistics of all the divorcing couples who are still having sex before and after their court date -- like as if a different type of crazy offers any direction on how sane people should conduct themselves.



I hate saying this but the lack of sex is probably a deal breaker for me too. I was tolerating a lot of bullshit. If my wife was smart, she could have faked it long enough to keep me dangling until it suited her to surprise me with divorce papers. I would be too naive to know any different. I really can do well enough with vanilla sex.



Heck, I hate my wife's guts now. Most of my feelings towards her are vengeful but I still want to bang her over and above all other women. I know it will never happen as long as either of us are breathing. There is no hope in hell of us reconciling in any honest way but I get dreams of banging my wife in the afterlife. I am hoping that I can get over that.



Before I found EP, I was reading bullshit Love Languages books. At that time, if she made an about-face and said: " Sugar Pie, I am so sorry about how I made you suffer in the past. I do not love you anymore -- you know that but I want us to stay for the kids at all costs. I would be willing to pity-**** you a few times a week until the kids turn 18 years old. Would that work for you? " I would probably take her up on that offer. All she would have to do is lift her skirt and I would cave.



I would probably do an internet search and fill my head with professionally-endorsed bullshit. I would read bullshit about diminishing libido in old age. I would probably be deluded into believing that once the kids had moved out of the house that I would no longer want intimacy.



Thank God for ILIASM on EP and all of you folks for telling the truth.





Refusers had better get together and start their own online support group because in a decade or so, we on EP will be a force that will revolutionize the marital world. The bells of freedom will ring. Mark my words. There will be a day where a first refusal in marriage will be treated the same way as a raised fist is now treated: no excuses.

I kind of agree, and interesting discussion. From what I understand, the evidence for any causation between the sex and the relationship goes bothways. I particularly loathe the presumption that the sexual dearth has to be caused by a relationship thing because that's the immediate justification - all the "if only" excuses. If only you knew/did/etc. THEN I'd make love. BS (in some cases).



I'd certainly attest to the lack of sex spilling over into threatening the core of the marriage, and for me the showstopper has always been - not the lack of sex - but the unwillingness to either understand or negotiate properly to help me get what's important to me. I'm committed to the converse, but not if it's not mutual - and that is the end of the marriage if there's no resolution - because it isn't a marriage in my book.

BAZ,



Your point is right on. Regardless of the original reasons marital dysfunction, sex will ultimately suffer as the relationship issues pile up.



Most marital issues will begin with communication problems about, secrets, fears, anger, just fill in the blank. Left unchecked, they fester until they have morphed into intimacy killers. Partners that do not address and communicate these issues, seek to resolve these issues, will ultimately end up in an SM or something very close to it.



There is no one size fits all for how we got here. I do agree that sex is the symptom of a larger problem.

I'll give an "Amen" chorus to this idea. It took me until even after I was gone to realize (or was it just "admit") all the things that were wrong in my marriage.



However, like VB & P, I don't just see it as a "canary in the coal mine", I see it as a dealbreaker.



Princess SexualCreatureFirst

I agree wholeheartedly that lack of sex is a symptom in a dysfunctional marriage. It took me years to figure that out, though. I thought I was just losing desire as I got older (not even forty at the time?!). It seems more like denial to me. Who wants to admit they feel so ill toward their partner that they don't want to be physically intimate with them? I knew I didn't want him, but it has been difficult for me to pinpoint the reason why. Extreme emotional abuse. Difficult to identify, though, for me, as friends and family didn't see it that way. It has taken me years, and the kids out of the house, to see it for what it is. Now, with help from all of you, I am making plans to exit, and find the love I need.

Baz, yes I agree too. I guess I've never thought about lack of sex as lack of sexual expression. Just like all the other things in (this marriage) not allowed to voice my opinion and have it validated. Ha, now I think, why did I bother to feel I needed his validation for my opinions. (sorry for the rant!) The marriage has had many forms of expression control.... you are so right. Thanks for the insight.S

I agree that is a symptom of a larger issue. I have spent many hours in therapy, read a ton of books, communication, and even tried the bacon scented candles. Nothing ever solved the real issue. Hell, nothing ever scratched the surface of the real issue. Sometimes, as in my case, the spouse has no desire for sex with the partner. I wish I could figure out what killed the desire, because that is the real issue.



The reality is my spouse would be happily screwing someone else if I was out of the picture. I am just not a desirable prospect for copulation compared to other males in this world. I get it....loud and clear.

japangal: Yes, I have that book although I have not read it. There is something to the line you quoted too. Might make sense.



Guess I need to read the book!

Bazzar is correct.



Rendered down to it's basic level, as I have learned from this 5 years of marriage (oh was I disgustingly naive at age 48 about where I would eventually end up) is this:



- I married for love and intimacy. To be cherished. To my mind, marriage was to be the beginning of a lifetime of growing and maintaining that love and sexual intimacy.



- He (as evidenced by words and deeds) married for companionship and material comfort.



One wedding, two different reasons for showing up.



Not going to work in the long run.

** In ILIASM, we are addressing a symptom. That of the lack of sexual expression. **



One thing that's virtually never acknowledged on this board is that sometimes it really is just the sex. There are systemic forces within long-term marriages that push in the direction of less desire and less sexual expression. Of course there are many exceptions, but they don't invalidate the principle.



I highly recommend the book Mating In Captivity for a discussion of this phenomenon. The author is a world-renowned clinical psychologist and her writing and intelligence just sparkle -- head and shoulders above anything else in the self-help department. She raises the question: Why is it that the sexual energy often dissipates in emotionally close, connected and loving long-term relationships? And answers it with thoughtful ideas about the nature of marriage and of sexual passion. One of my favorite lines in the book: "Lack of desire in a loving marriage is not a problem to solve, but a paradox to manage."



JG

The 1st thing the therapist said to me was that no or little sex in a relationship 90% of the time is a symptom. She was correct of course.

It is also very complex for all of us here. It does not take long however to focus on 'the rest of it', and then a piece at a time one sees that what you thought was a good marriage bar the sex is in fact dysfunctional on many levels.



I would encourage every person on this forum (in the trying to understand or fix it stage) to leave the sex out of their minds for some time and write lists of good and bad based on your real life experience within the marriage over X amount of time, then re visit what you wrote a few weeks/months later. It may surprise you.



I was advised to keep a record, I did for 1 year, wrote 73 entries, some huge, some small. After a year I re read them, it's amazing what one forgets... all the WTF moments...



It was plain that it was ******, I just could not see it at the time - now I can.



Baz is 100% correct in my opinion.



And here is one extract from the journal:



~~~~~~~~~~~~~



I had just driven 200 miles back after burying my uncle. My eyes were still red from the tears, I waited until I was in the car before I cried, not sure why.

I had spent the morning in a club full of drunk strangers negotiating between various parts of my dysfunctional feuding family, playing peace keeper. Stressed was an understatement. The drive home was ****, and in the rain.

I walked through the door, put my bag down, took my shoes off, picked my bag up ready to take to the washing machine and empty the dirty clothes out. My wife appears just before I put my shoes on the shoe rack, "Don't leave those shoes there!" she walked off. I heard her say from the other room angrily - "And why are you so late? Oh, and put that bag somewhere!"



Right then I needed to be held - I had just buried my uncle...

On the way back in the car I was thinking again, one day I will be dead, I hope I don't die like he did. I also had all those 'What's it all about' thoughts in the car, the deep ones about important stuff.

My wife was still ranting on about something I had not done in the background.



I had only been home about 30 seconds, and I so needed human touch, I needed to know I was alive.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~



This has NOTHING to do with being banged in a regular basis, this has EVERYTHING to do with my decision to leave.

And there are thousands of these episodes in my marriage, thousands!



Try writing yours down for a while and prove Baz right.

I also agree. It's a symptom of something very wrong in a marriage. However, there are so many things that can go wrong and our refusers are unlikely to open up completely about what they are.



In my case, both dating and marriage were sexless from the very beginning. I believe, but have no way to know for sure, that the sexlessness on her side was well ingrained long before I met her. She grew up in a bad situation and paid for it with her sexuality. She'll carry that with her until she chooses to address it.



The more difficult thing to do is to look inward and address why I chose to get involved with her, marry her, and stay with her as long as I did. My upbringing didn't do me any favors either. While I'm a "sex" person, my childhood didn't prepare me for the true intimacy that the best marriages have and I struggle with that now.



So here I am, struggling with my own ability to open up fully to another person. I managed to find the person out there who could meet me in that inability. She never really owned her part in it while we were together. I'm not sure that I did either. However, now that I'm out of it, I'm working hard to address my shortcomings.



So yes, I agree that sexlessness in a marriage is usually just a symptom of something else. I hate absolutes, and I'm sure there are marriages out there where the sexlessness was the root cause, but it doesn't seem all that common to me in my limited experience. More of what I have seen is that something is wrong, maybe even from the very beginning, and sex is either never present or dies at some point.

I agree with what you say, it is indeed a symptom.



Now you have me thinking about how that fits in to a relationship like mine, which I now view as being in essentials always sexless; even when we were dating he could easily keep his hands off me.



Following your line of thought, it becomes apparent that my relationship was always dysfunctional. This is true from at least my perspective.



How then do we account for spouses who are [like my husband] completely satisfied and happy in this sexless condition? Is the dysfunction only my interpretation? Or are they just dysfunctional and therefore for them the relationship is, contrary to our opinion a functional one?