News Media !

i can relate on a lower level...



i was born over seas on an island



and since im as white as they come....



some will say .......



oh your white, and you were born on an island?



i tell them, white people are all over the wold

" Yet nothing I saw—neither the poverty nor the overt oppression—ever had the same devastating effect on the human personality as the undiscriminating welfare state. I never saw the loss of dignity, the self-centeredness, the spiritual and emotional vacuity, or the sheer ignorance of how to live, that I see daily in England. In a kind of pincer movement, therefore, I and the doctors from India and the Philippines have come to the same terrible conclusion: that the worst poverty is in England—and it is not material poverty but poverty of soul. "

What is Poverty? by Theodore Dalrymple

This is all very enlightening and interesting. And unhelpful to this board.



The core issue to me is that you live where you live. For the vast majority of ILIASM members, that living is done in jurisdictions that legally recognise the concept of ending a dysfunctional marriage.



If you are living in a jurisdiction that recognises this concept, then it is bullshit to rule such an action out on the basis that in another jurisdiction (where you no longer live) the concept is not recognised.



Tread your own path.

I find it interesting when people can't take an honest look at their own country and receive criticism. I weigh my own choices pretty heavily, so I also do that for my own country. Much of what I see going on doesn't make me feel real warm and fuzzy. But, I do appreciate the good, of course. I just don't believe in "patriotism" because I did ask myself the question, "what if I had been born in a hut in some third-world country? Would my beliefs be the same?" Nope. They wouldn't be. So, why do I believe what I believe? Because I have been told to, taught to, modeled by others.



The point? I don't know. I guess just that I am not offended by this poster sharing HER experience from HER perspective -- infact, we could maybe learn something from it.



OP, it might do you well, however, to realize that all that is wrong within your marriage is NOT because you are in America (married to an American?) I can't tell. Anyway, I imagine there are sexless creatures in your country, too, just like here.

Food for thought:

Traditional Chinese people do not use handkerchiefs or tissues to blow their noses. They simply blow their nose and wipe their face clean - preferably over water but without if it is unavailable.



To our Western minds this is "disgusting". But as my Chinese friend pointed out:

"But you Westerners blow your noses onto pieces of cloth or paper - then you wrap it up and keep it in your pocket!! THAT is truly revolting!"



Different strokes for different folks . . . !!!!

One of the little talked about issues of cultural differences is the way in which language is used. Western cultures such as US, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, England, etc. have remarkably similar attitudes that are refected in similar language and we understand each other very well. We all have "English" as our first language, so despite cultural differences, we tend to understand the nuances of language in the same ways.



The OP writes in English but it is clearly a second language, and thus some of the things she says may unintentionally convey a different meaning to us than the one she intended. My very dear French friend sometimes says things that horrify me! But usually, on discussion, it turns out her beliefs and attitudes are closely aligned with mine - but her language portrays something different to me - because English is her second language.



It may well be that she (the OP) is priviledged - and it certainly seems to our Western minds that she is unaware of those in her own society or others who have less priviledge. But WE need to recognise that our disgust with this is born of our own cultural perspective - in OUR cultures such lack of awareness translates as uncaring and superficial. But that is NOT the case in many countries. In countries where the degree of poverty is high, those who are NOT living in poverty look on poverty in a very different way from those of us in the countries I named above. WE may believe that is "wrong" but that is because our own culture dictates that sentiment. The essence of cultural differences is to recognise and acknowledge that not everyone thinks like we do . . . .



Cultural differences may well be unacceptable to us - there is no "requirement" to accept something you don't agree with (children being contracted into marriage; female circumcision; etc.) . But that does not mean that an individual who comes from another country and holds to the cultural mores of that country is a "bad" person.



When the OP says that she is "suffering more" than we are, I think she means that there is an additional aspect to her suffering that is one we don't undergo. Because she is coping with what we ALL cope witrh (sexless marriage) in an environment where much of the behaviour, the attitudes, the cultural mores are different from those of her own culture.



She might have been wiser to phrase it as "in addition to" rather than "suffering more" - but that is simply a linguistic issue. Maybe all of us should pause to consider how effectively we might convey our deepest feelings in Hindi to an Indian audience, and ask ourselves if there might just be a chance that we could be misunderstood because our language skills did not include those finest nuances that are often crucial to understanding . . . .



Because the OP uses English with dexterity and skill does not mean that her cultural understandings are exactly reflected in her wriiten language. I tell my French friend that her English is way better than mine - her vocabulary is greater, her grammatical structures are perfect. Yet sometimes what she says conveys something different to me from what I hear. . . . . Does the "fault" lie with her words, or with the way I hear them??



"Fault" is an unhelpful issue here - it IS the cultural differences that Petrushka and hl42 so clearly describe that may result in us hearing something different from what is said. Do we have to agree with it? No! But neither do we have to be outraged and angry at the OP.



Or it may be that the OP used exactly the right words to convey her issues - because she feels exactly that way! This IS a cultural difference. Does it make her right and us wrong? NO! Or vice versa? NO! It simply reflects the cultural differences that exist between people. Neither is to be found wanting - even if they are totally opposed. Both have validity in their own cultures.

betrayed73 I am angry enough by your attitude to say this:



I have no idea where you are from. But I can read enough that you are from the PRIVILEGED class from your country. I DARE YOU TO OPEN YOUR EYES, GO BACK TO YOUR COUNTRY, AND SEE HOW OTHERS IN YOUR COUNTRY LIVE.



The poor. The servants. The ones without "male family members" to help them. The prostitutes. What are their stories? Those in jail. The destitute. The orphans.



My mother was a med student in her country of origin. Sex was not talked about. But she still witnessed sexual abuse, etc.



Someone from a privileged background with an engineering degree - even in THIS country - can very easily go through life completely ignorant of those around them.



Tell me, are there no jails in your country? Are there no poor? Are there no women without "male caretakers"? Are there no prostitutes? Are there no drug addicts? Are there no victims of abuse? Are there no homosexuals?



Now that your eyes have been open go back and see the LIES you have been living under.



You are in a sexless marriage. We all are. Now we open our eyes and move on. In all aspects of life.

Sorry, I could get on board, until you explained how you suffer more than anyone here.



That bit of stupidity I can't blame on cultural differences. That is nothing but self-made dogma. I call bullshit.

1. Assume nothing.

2. Presume nothing.

3. Reject stereotypes before adopting them.

4. Bend before you break.

5. Listen before you leap.

6. Consider all alternative interpretations, choices.

7. Accept life is an on-going lesson.

8. Accept life changes whether you want to or not.

9. Go back to point 1.

Betrayed,

I was born and raised in this decadent Western culture. I understand everything you say and I agree.



You may not have made your case sufficiently, though. As far as we ILIASM-losers are concerned, I think the key difference in cultures that matters is the concept of parasitism. Parasitic people can be found all over the world.



Our part of the world feeds parasitic people and turns us into them through taxation.



In your culture, a person who tries to mooch off the community probably has a more difficult time doing so.

In our culture, everybody is a mooch. Nearly 99% of us feel entitled to a free lunch paid and delivered by the tax-payer. Our Western culture of parasitism is a perfect breeding ground for refusers/cheaters/users of all kinds.

Puhleeease - are you from Mars??? Because in EARTH cultures there are sexless marriages, teen pregnancies and reprehensibly child sexual abuse... and worse. Maybe in some cultures they don't talk about these things.

The whole idea was to explain the difference how much I suffer more than you guys .

You marry somebody from same culture or at least you knew what was going on .

The idea was to show and explain the shock I had .

As I said you can not tell what is good or bad ,coz everything is relative !

I've been immensely fortunate to live in a number of different cultures in childhood, including some very (materially) poor ones.



As time's gone on, that's allowed me a different perspective or perhaps more accuity about some of the insanities that happen in western cultures, all the more dangerous because they are insidious and toxic. At least if you're faced with a completely different culture, you're primed to be looking for these differences.



As Petrushka says, it's bad enough between nominally similar western cultures.



And I feel there is a worthwhile discussion to be had around this, in relation to ILIASM, so it's a pity this is somewhat incoherent as a post. So, for example, western views of autonomy are, in my opinion, extremist. And taken to their self-serving conclusion by using refusers, are absolutely inimical to a cooperative marriage and a worthwhile sex life.

Sorry. I don't see a coherent thread in this post at all. The post is primarily about one person's ignorance and some cultural differences. This is then somehow attributed to the media?

Not sure where this is going or what it has to do with sexlessness.

Maybe personal rants should be on personal blogs?

Well guys, and gals, I see you ripping into the OP already.



I have the experience of moving across cultures myself, and it wasn't anywhere near as big a jump, you'd think. From Germany to New Zealand.



I will tell you, the things I didn't know about the society in my new country was astonishing. Some of the things took me 10 years to figure out, and some of the stuff I find incomprehensible even after 30 years in my new home (not going into everything here).



I didn't know that men don't trust women to be safe partners in an emotional relationship. I didn't know that women see all men as potential rapists and child molesters when I got here. I did not know that a first world society can have such a bad attitude to education. I did not realize that a modern western country can have such last centuries attitudes to sex, nudity, censorship ...



Yes, I know EXACTLY where the OP is coming from.



I know exactly how ignorant many Americans in particular are about values and cultures in the rest of the world. Not all of them, but many. People in other countries think differently. Every one of us is shaped in their thinking by the culture we grew up in, the food we grew up with, the family we grew up in. You cannot think something that you have never experienced.



That drills right down to so much crap we are discussing here in ILIASM: people who have never experienced a loving, sharing, intimate, sexually active relationship CAN NOT CONCEIVE OF SUCH A THING.



What do villages in Austria and Ghana have in common? They throw stones at homosexuals there. Did you know that? Inconceivable where I come from.



I cannot even think myself in to the headspace of a Chinese who operates on the premise that saving face is more important than dealing with a problem. It just does not compute for me, and I bet lots of Western diplomats do not only not understand this, they don't even know about it. And yet that is how government and business in China works, and if you can't at least work on that by thinking around it and taking it into account, then you're headed for a trainwreck.



If you want to be awake and aware, then just take in what Betrayed says. What she says is true. She's not saying anywhere that your way is better, or worse. She's expressing her experience which is significant and genuine --- there's stuff like this that you simply can't even learn by going to a university in Dubai, St. Louis or Berlin: you have to have a long term intimate encounter with other cultures to even experience the surprise.



I will give you another example: we had a South African couple move into the valley a few years ago. The woman was a nurse, 50s ... the couple had lived a decade in Wales before coming to NZ. One day we met the woman over a cup of coffee and she related an epiphany to us: "You know, I worked with some of those black women at the hospital for a few months now, and I suddenly realized - those are actually PEOPLE" --- she hadn't known. She'd never realized until she was in her 50s that dark skinned people are people.



Put that in your pipe and smoke it, before you rip into Betrayed73 here. Think about it: there are people with a different experience of the world from you.

I can understand every word what you say. I lived in India for 26 years and now in USA for 16 years.

The 2 cultures are different and they should be viewed that way. Please don't mix with each other. I can't explain certain things about India to Americans and there are few things I can't explain to Indians.

I understand both cultures so I know why it is done that way.

Just minor example. In India it is perfectly okay to **** in public but you can't kiss in public. In America you can kiss in public but you can't ****. I can understand why is that way but difficult to explain to people.

In India old people are taken care by the son and they don't have social security but in US no need of son to take care.

Americans value privacy and it is very important to them. Indian don't care about it. It is just cultural thing.

In india you get married and then you have sex so you get babies after marriage. 15 or 16 year old cant marry so no kids for them.

Here people want other person to be compatible in bed before marriage. So sex is okay before marriage.

American cultural things have started happening in India specially in big cities.

I don't think it is good or bad.

People should have independence to do anything they want but what is good and what is bad is defined by the culture.

In some countries it is bad to have affair outside marriage but they can have 2 wives. In some countries you can't have more than one wife but can have many affairs.

-----"I have PHD in engineering"



You have years of higher education under your belt.



Not buying this naive mindset you keep writing about.

It never fails, when someone says "no offense but" you just know is gonna be a pile of offensive crap.



FYI just because you lived in ignorance doesnt mean EVERYONE in your country of origin is so ignorant, nor does it mean you cancontinue to blame moving "here" fir all your woes.



Seriously this is at least the second time youve posted this stuff. What do you want, never mind the rest of it.

At any stage in your life, you don't know what you don't know.



Now, you DO know what you once did not know.



And when you DO know, you put on you big girl panties and make appropriate choices.



Tread your own path.

Can someone please comment so I can "like"it?