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Guys ...God knows I do not tend to offend any culture ,country ,people ,the way they live ,....!
I don't tend to compare people , their culture ,the way they live ,because we are not in the position to compare people or blame them !

Just some facts that are kept hidden from so many people in different countries with different culture !
I just want to know how you would feel ,if you were me or somebody from my culture !

I moved out of my country when I was 35 ....I think I was mature enough to understand the differences !

At the age of 35 I had no idea that people could abuse children ! sexually I mean ! I had never heard of that !

I had never known people could have sexuall relationship with same sex ...be gay or lesbian !

I had no idea of the word " privacy " while I was never concerned about that .
why should we care about privacy ...? what happens if people know more about us ? Can it be harmful ?

I never knew a Doctor has to accept us as a patient ...I would think Doctors offices were open to every body ,all patients ...as the way it was in my country .
I did not know a woman ,as a mother ,wife , sister ,grandmother , aunt has to work till she is alive even if she has brother ,father ,nephew , husband ....becasue in my country men would all be responsible to sponsor all women in their family .

I had never heard that girls at the age of 14..13...15 ..could get pregnant and it was ok with the family to raise the baby with no father involved !
Was not it a shame ?
Kids had kids ? was it ok ?
I heard women could just break up for a while and sleep with somebody else and get pregnant and ligally it was ok ...!
I always used to think it was illegal by law and by conscience ,by heart ,by self repect ,by spirit !!!!

I did not know it was ok to call people older than us with their first name without showing any respect of calling them Mr. or Mrs .

I could not understand the meaning of " individuality " while we were either a husband or a wife ....commited in a relationship .

As far as I had seen I thought  there should not have been any individuality ( some how some of us are taking advantage of that as selfishness ) when you are a human being ...
we all live together some how ....
As a colleague ...neighbor...daughter ...son...dad...mom...sister...brother ...and the closest relationshop husband and wife ...citizen

we are all connected some how !



I had never known that a marriage can be a marriage without sex ...without talk, without touch ,without any communication ....!
You explain that to 100s of million people in my country ,they look at you like you are explaining about aliens ...!

I am sure some of you just send me message say " get lost from here and go back to your country "
But as I said ...I am just mentioning the shocks I had when I moved to CA.

I expected a life with lots of talking , discussion ,love,touch x100000 ,coz I am a touchy feely ....sex...kindness...sacrifices...patience ...plans....goals....no privacy ....same closets ...just pure honesty ....!


Now see where I ended up !

It is all about Media that tells you you ar living in a hell while other people in other side of the world are living in heaven !!!!
betrayed73 betrayed73 36-40, F 19 Responses May 22, 2012

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i can relate on a lower level...<br />
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i was born over seas on an island<br />
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and since im as white as they come....<br />
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some will say ....... <br />
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oh your white, and you were born on an island? <br />
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i tell them, white people are all over the wold

" Yet nothing I saw—neither the poverty nor the overt oppression—ever had the same devastating effect on the human personality as the undiscriminating welfare state. I never saw the loss of dignity, the self-centeredness, the spiritual and emotional vacuity, or the sheer ignorance of how to live, that I see daily in England. In a kind of pincer movement, therefore, I and the doctors from India and the Philippines have come to the same terrible conclusion: that the worst poverty is in England—and it is not material poverty but poverty of soul. " <br />
What is Poverty? by Theodore Dalrymple

This is all very enlightening and interesting. And unhelpful to this board.<br />
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The core issue to me is that you live where you live. For the vast majority of ILIASM members, that living is done in jurisdictions that legally recognise the concept of ending a dysfunctional marriage.<br />
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If you are living in a jurisdiction that recognises this concept, then it is bullshit to rule such an action out on the basis that in another jurisdiction (where you no longer live) the concept is not recognised.<br />
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Tread your own path.

Food for thought:<br />
Traditional Chinese people do not use handkerchiefs or tissues to blow their noses. They simply blow their nose and wipe their face clean - preferably over water but without if it is unavailable.<br />
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To our Western minds this is "disgusting". But as my Chinese friend pointed out:<br />
"But you Westerners blow your noses onto pieces of cloth or paper - then you wrap it up and keep it in your pocket!! THAT is truly revolting!"<br />
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Different strokes for different folks . . . !!!!

One of the little talked about issues of cultural differences is the way in which language is used. Western cultures such as US, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, England, etc. have remarkably similar attitudes that are refected in similar language and we understand each other very well. We all have "English" as our first language, so despite cultural differences, we tend to understand the nuances of language in the same ways.<br />
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The OP writes in English but it is clearly a second language, and thus some of the things she says may unintentionally convey a different meaning to us than the one she intended. My very dear French friend sometimes says things that horrify me! But usually, on discussion, it turns out her beliefs and attitudes are closely aligned with mine - but her language portrays something different to me - because English is her second language.<br />
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It may well be that she (the OP) is priviledged - and it certainly seems to our Western minds that she is unaware of those in her own society or others who have less priviledge. But WE need to recognise that our disgust with this is born of our own cultural perspective - in OUR cultures such lack of awareness translates as uncaring and superficial. But that is NOT the case in many countries. In countries where the degree of poverty is high, those who are NOT living in poverty look on poverty in a very different way from those of us in the countries I named above. WE may believe that is "wrong" but that is because our own culture dictates that sentiment. The essence of cultural differences is to recognise and acknowledge that not everyone thinks like we do . . . . <br />
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Cultural differences may well be unacceptable to us - there is no "requirement" to accept something you don't agree with (children being contracted into marriage; female circumcision; etc.) . But that does not mean that an individual who comes from another country and holds to the cultural mores of that country is a "bad" person.<br />
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When the OP says that she is "suffering more" than we are, I think she means that there is an additional aspect to her suffering that is one we don't undergo. Because she is coping with what we ALL cope witrh (sexless marriage) in an environment where much of the behaviour, the attitudes, the cultural mores are different from those of her own culture. <br />
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She might have been wiser to phrase it as "in addition to" rather than "suffering more" - but that is simply a linguistic issue. Maybe all of us should pause to consider how effectively we might convey our deepest feelings in Hindi to an Indian audience, and ask ourselves if there might just be a chance that we could be misunderstood because our language skills did not include those finest nuances that are often crucial to understanding . . . . <br />
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Because the OP uses English with dexterity and skill does not mean that her cultural understandings are exactly reflected in her wriiten language. I tell my French friend that her English is way better than mine - her vocabulary is greater, her grammatical structures are perfect. Yet sometimes what she says conveys something different to me from what I hear. . . . . Does the "fault" lie with her words, or with the way I hear them??<br />
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"Fault" is an unhelpful issue here - it IS the cultural differences that Petrushka and hl42 so clearly describe that may result in us hearing something different from what is said. Do we have to agree with it? No! But neither do we have to be outraged and angry at the OP.<br />
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Or it may be that the OP used exactly the right words to convey her issues - because she feels exactly that way! This IS a cultural difference. Does it make her right and us wrong? NO! Or vice versa? NO! It simply reflects the cultural differences that exist between people. Neither is to be found wanting - even if they are totally opposed. Both have validity in their own cultures.

You're right. I probably let my fingers fly too fast.

Those words, suffer more, really got to me though.

betrayed73 I am angry enough by your attitude to say this:<br />
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I have no idea where you are from. But I can read enough that you are from the PRIVILEGED class from your country. I DARE YOU TO OPEN YOUR EYES, GO BACK TO YOUR COUNTRY, AND SEE HOW OTHERS IN YOUR COUNTRY LIVE.<br />
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The poor. The servants. The ones without "male family members" to help them. The prostitutes. What are their stories? Those in jail. The destitute. The orphans.<br />
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My mother was a med student in her country of origin. Sex was not talked about. But she still witnessed sexual abuse, etc. <br />
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Someone from a privileged background with an engineering degree - even in THIS country - can very easily go through life completely ignorant of those around them.<br />
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Tell me, are there no jails in your country? Are there no poor? Are there no women without "male caretakers"? Are there no prostitutes? Are there no drug addicts? Are there no victims of abuse? Are there no homosexuals?<br />
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Now that your eyes have been open go back and see the LIES you have been living under.<br />
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You are in a sexless marriage. We all are. Now we open our eyes and move on. In all aspects of life.

Exactly, just because a person chooses to live blindly doesn't mean those thing don't exist. In every country, every culture, people suffer. And they suffer in ways that most people can't fathom. So betrayed, read a damn newspaper, and wake up.

Sorry, I could get on board, until you explained how you suffer more than anyone here. <br />
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That bit of stupidity I can't blame on cultural differences. That is nothing but self-made dogma. I call bullshit.

1. Assume nothing.<br />
2. Presume nothing.<br />
3. Reject stereotypes before adopting them.<br />
4. Bend before you break.<br />
5. Listen before you leap.<br />
6. Consider all alternative interpretations, choices.<br />
7. Accept life is an on-going lesson.<br />
8. Accept life changes whether you want to or not.<br />
9. Go back to point 1.

Betrayed, <br />
I was born and raised in this decadent Western culture. I understand everything you say and I agree. <br />
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You may not have made your case sufficiently, though. As far as we ILIASM-losers are concerned, I think the key difference in cultures that matters is the concept of parasitism. Parasitic people can be found all over the world. <br />
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Our part of the world feeds parasitic people and turns us into them through taxation. <br />
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In your culture, a person who tries to mooch off the community probably has a more difficult time doing so. <br />
In our culture, everybody is a mooch. Nearly 99% of us feel entitled to a free lunch paid and delivered by the tax-payer. Our Western culture of parasitism is a perfect breeding ground for refusers/cheaters/users of all kinds.

Puhleeease - are you from Mars??? Because in EARTH cultures there are sexless marriages, teen pregnancies and reprehensibly child sexual abuse... and worse. Maybe in some cultures they don't talk about these things.

and yes, gay people, too.

You got that right. They don't talk about it. Imagine you live in a culture where, would you confess to your uncle raping you, you'd get killed by your father and brothers. Would you talk, or would you shut up? Would your mother talk if she knew? Nobody would know it happened except for the persons directly involved, and maybe one other or two.
This is just one example. There's a death penalty on being an apostate in Iran. Would you declare you no longer believe in the market square? And, incidentally, the same goes for a whole lot of Christian fringe churches and cults, except they do "shunning". So you shut up and put up if you don't want to lose your family, your community. That reminds me of one member here ... Oh, it's easy to live in ignorance. I have family in the US, I find it mindboggling when I hear about all the stuff that never, ever gets in the media there. Just saying'.

I think I'd rather live in a place where people talk about child sexual abuse than a place where women are jailed (or worse) for reporting being raped.

That is another lie ou are told.
who said women go to jail for reporting being raped ?

Defensive a little???? I don't even know where you're from so can't say if that happens in your country or not. But I can say it happens regularly in Afghanistan, I know of at least one case in Saudi, and I know of one case here in the UK.

What country are you from then, making these statements above.... because EVERY country has teen pregnancies, homosexuals, child abuse, etc... just that people like you are IGNORANT of the reality or WILLFULLY sweep it under the carpet... and when a 12-year-old in a country where sex is NOT discussed is raped and carries the baby, then it is SHAME ON HER... In my mother's country she witnessed a NINE YEAR OLD give birth!!!! A NINE YEAR OLD. DO NOT TELL ME IT DOES NOT HAPPEN YOU ARE JUST IGNORANT. TIME TO GROW UP AND LEARN.

It is not a lie in principle, although I cannot evaluate the actual incident. However, I WILL tell you that so called "honor killings" are very, very real. The victim gets penalized for the crime of another person. You may take this as a dig at islamic countries, but in fact it is not. I have knowlege of that sort of thing happening in Italy and Spain for instance. If you haven't heard or read about it, that does not mean it didn't happen. It just means that you don't have enough information. Gigo.

4 More Responses

The whole idea was to explain the difference how much I suffer more than you guys .<br />
You marry somebody from same culture or at least you knew what was going on .<br />
The idea was to show and explain the shock I had .<br />
As I said you can not tell what is good or bad ,coz everything is relative !

Yep. You win the "most suffering" contest. But that does not give you a pass on the life law of choice. No-one gets a pass on that one.

That is EXACTLY what I got out of your post.

Guess what? I was born and raised in Canada; my spouse was born and raised in Canada. But our family's cultures were from opposite ends of the world. I had NO CONCEPT of sexless marriage either. How would you suffer MORE in a SM just because you did not know about childhood sexual abuse?

My parent's culture was to NEVER talk about sex. My parents are from another country too. I grew up HERE married a man from HERE and I still ended up suffering in a SM.

Your post reads as though you suffer more because of the "depravity" of western culture.

I am happy to discuss differences in culture. I am not so happy to hear a rant on how someone suffers because homosexuality does not exist in their culture...

I've been immensely fortunate to live in a number of different cultures in childhood, including some very (materially) poor ones.<br />
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As time's gone on, that's allowed me a different perspective or perhaps more accuity about some of the insanities that happen in western cultures, all the more dangerous because they are insidious and toxic. At least if you're faced with a completely different culture, you're primed to be looking for these differences.<br />
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As Petrushka says, it's bad enough between nominally similar western cultures.<br />
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And I feel there is a worthwhile discussion to be had around this, in relation to ILIASM, so it's a pity this is somewhat incoherent as a post. So, for example, western views of autonomy are, in my opinion, extremist. And taken to their self-serving conclusion by using refusers, are absolutely inimical to a cooperative marriage and a worthwhile sex life.

Oh yes, yes, yes. It took me a few seconds to cotton on to that. "My body is mine to do with as I see fit". Yes, that may be so, but ... mutuality? Togetherness? It's the same for the woman who refuses to have sex and the whale on the couch who refuses to eat a healthy meal and/or bestir himself and put that morning woody to work. Overblown autonomy that becomes ego-centric. I'm also looking at the generation of my parents: "happiness" as an achievable goal in a relationship was not even on the list ... or at least nowhere near the top.

Well, the pursuit of individual autonomy is not a predictor for happiness generally - we ain't islands. And as a proposition in a marriage expecting fidelity, it's both philosophically and morally indefensible and bankrupt - so obvious that it's weird it needs to be said. I prefer some distributed justice myself. Doesn't stop people trying it on, but they really ought not to get married if complete control and autonomy important to them.

I think a good cooperative marriage is a fine place to experience happiness, and it's interesting that people were happier in their marriages in our parent's day, and are happier generally than not married. But not in the SM.

Sorry. I don't see a coherent thread in this post at all. The post is primarily about one person's ignorance and some cultural differences. This is then somehow attributed to the media? <br />
Not sure where this is going or what it has to do with sexlessness. <br />
Maybe personal rants should be on personal blogs?

Well guys, and gals, I see you ripping into the OP already. <br />
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I have the experience of moving across cultures myself, and it wasn't anywhere near as big a jump, you'd think. From Germany to New Zealand. <br />
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I will tell you, the things I didn't know about the society in my new country was astonishing. Some of the things took me 10 years to figure out, and some of the stuff I find incomprehensible even after 30 years in my new home (not going into everything here).<br />
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I didn't know that men don't trust women to be safe partners in an emotional relationship. I didn't know that women see all men as potential rapists and child molesters when I got here. I did not know that a first world society can have such a bad attitude to education. I did not realize that a modern western country can have such last centuries attitudes to sex, nudity, censorship ... <br />
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Yes, I know EXACTLY where the OP is coming from. <br />
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I know exactly how ignorant many Americans in particular are about values and cultures in the rest of the world. Not all of them, but many. People in other countries think differently. Every one of us is shaped in their thinking by the culture we grew up in, the food we grew up with, the family we grew up in. You cannot think something that you have never experienced. <br />
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That drills right down to so much crap we are discussing here in ILIASM: people who have never experienced a loving, sharing, intimate, sexually active relationship CAN NOT CONCEIVE OF SUCH A THING.<br />
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What do villages in Austria and Ghana have in common? They throw stones at homosexuals there. Did you know that? Inconceivable where I come from. <br />
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I cannot even think myself in to the headspace of a Chinese who operates on the premise that saving face is more important than dealing with a problem. It just does not compute for me, and I bet lots of Western diplomats do not only not understand this, they don't even know about it. And yet that is how government and business in China works, and if you can't at least work on that by thinking around it and taking it into account, then you're headed for a trainwreck. <br />
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If you want to be awake and aware, then just take in what Betrayed says. What she says is true. She's not saying anywhere that your way is better, or worse. She's expressing her experience which is significant and genuine --- there's stuff like this that you simply can't even learn by going to a university in Dubai, St. Louis or Berlin: you have to have a long term intimate encounter with other cultures to even experience the surprise.<br />
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I will give you another example: we had a South African couple move into the valley a few years ago. The woman was a nurse, 50s ... the couple had lived a decade in Wales before coming to NZ. One day we met the woman over a cup of coffee and she related an epiphany to us: "You know, I worked with some of those black women at the hospital for a few months now, and I suddenly realized - those are actually PEOPLE" --- she hadn't known. She'd never realized until she was in her 50s that dark skinned people are people. <br />
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Put that in your pipe and smoke it, before you rip into Betrayed73 here. Think about it: there are people with a different experience of the world from you.

They get offended and mad because they dont want to change their attitude and mind from the way they are told .
It was funny when people would find out where I was from they kept asking me if we had a car or a camel ...
They kept asking me if our men would beat us every day or no ...
if we had food to eat or no ...while I had no idea what they were talking about .
I think people here get mad just becasue they dont have the capacity to accept that they were not told the truth ...and they were happy with the lies they were told .
Otherwise why should they be upset if some one here is opening their eyes by some unsaid truth !!!!!

When I came to NZ people tried their best to stop me from buying a house in asmall village ...just because the whole population was maori . They kept telling me they were all gangs and cruel ,unfriendly ....But for some reasons we had to buy a house close to where we worked ,and we are the only white people right now in the whole area that we bought the house ,,,people are fantastic ...so social ...friendly ...family oriented ...always smiling ...we are happy we did not listen to other people !

The stupid part was that they made me wait one year after marriage to find out if I was a trrorist or no ...!
365 days of somebody's life ....then I came to a life that some body would terrorise my life 24/7 .
Is not that insulting ?
Is not that humiliating ?
Is not that offensive ?

Although I never meant to say anything good or bad ...just opened the truth for you guys !

That's why I told you that you can't explain things to everybody. You just understand the culture and accept it.
People in India thinks that you can get American girl in any corner for sex but we know that it is not true.
American thinks in India you have snake charmers everywhere which is not true.
There are many such things. I have stop explaining to both sides and started learning and a accepting.
Now I started loving everything.

I hear what you are saying Mehjun, and 90% of the time I do what you do. But I also have my 'lines in the sand'. I cannot accept spousal abuse, and family violence is rife in my chosen country. I so detest the general trench warfare between the sexes here (not everybody, but the underlying attitude of seeing the other gender as 'the enemy' is prevalent) that I once considered it highly unlikely that I'd ever get hooked up with a Kiwi woman again. I do not, and never will, like an education system that only serves itself and has lost all perspective of what it should really be about: teaching.

"I so detest the general trench warfare between the sexes" - oh yes. Cui bono?

3 More Responses

I can understand every word what you say. I lived in India for 26 years and now in USA for 16 years.<br />
The 2 cultures are different and they should be viewed that way. Please don't mix with each other. I can't explain certain things about India to Americans and there are few things I can't explain to Indians. <br />
I understand both cultures so I know why it is done that way.<br />
Just minor example. In India it is perfectly okay to **** in public but you can't kiss in public. In America you can kiss in public but you can't ****. I can understand why is that way but difficult to explain to people.<br />
In India old people are taken care by the son and they don't have social security but in US no need of son to take care.<br />
Americans value privacy and it is very important to them. Indian don't care about it. It is just cultural thing.<br />
In india you get married and then you have sex so you get babies after marriage. 15 or 16 year old cant marry so no kids for them.<br />
Here people want other person to be compatible in bed before marriage. So sex is okay before marriage. <br />
American cultural things have started happening in India specially in big cities. <br />
I don't think it is good or bad.<br />
People should have independence to do anything they want but what is good and what is bad is defined by the culture.<br />
In some countries it is bad to have affair outside marriage but they can have 2 wives. In some countries you can't have more than one wife but can have many affairs.

Yes ...As I said no one can tell which one is good or bad ...But as soon as you open your mouth and talk about differences ,some can not take it ...no capacity even to understand that you are mentioning about the differences ,and if you see a good point in these differences maybe you should think about it .

Only the person with an inferiority complex or the bigots will fly off the handle when you start talking about differences. The person with intellect and curiosity will ***** their ears, turn bright eyes in your direction and listen. Argue the point, maybe, but listen first.

-----"I have PHD in engineering"<br />
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You have years of higher education under your belt.<br />
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Not buying this naive mindset you keep writing about.

You don't have to !

It never fails, when someone says "no offense but" you just know is gonna be a pile of offensive crap.<br />
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FYI just because you lived in ignorance doesnt mean EVERYONE in your country of origin is so ignorant, nor does it mean you cancontinue to blame moving "here" fir all your woes.<br />
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Seriously this is at least the second time youve posted this stuff. What do you want, never mind the rest of it.

At any stage in your life, you don't know what you don't know.<br />
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Now, you DO know what you once did not know.<br />
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And when you DO know, you put on you big girl panties and make appropriate choices.<br />
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Tread your own path.

and yet there is still so very much for them to learn...well of course for all of us

I will paraphrase Socrates: the more I learn, the more I become aware of what I don't know.
LOL. He was no couch potato.

Can someone please comment so I can "like"it?