Red Flag Compliation...

I think we should compile a list of red flags that serve as early warning to sexless marriage. Here is one that cropped up yesterday with the girl I'm seeing:

Her: "Well, my friend has been dating her guy for like, four years, and I don't think they do anything more than kiss. Don't you think that is pure and innocent?"

Me: "No, I think it means something is terribly, horribly wrong. It means their relationship, in my eyes, is not real. It is fake, a phony, a lie. Or maybe they are asexuals, or they are gay and use the relationship to hide it. I think maybe they are sick, maybe they should see a doctor."

Seems like a flag to me. Respect is nice, but if pure and innocent is tied to lack of intimacy in her mind, then this is a no go. Will query further.

So, let's hear your red flags. What is in your early warning system?
FilteringMachine FilteringMachine
31-35, M
17 Responses Nov 6, 2012

It is very-very red flag... The girl connected long (unnaturally long!) period of sexless dating with purity... Of what? Mind? Body? Spirit?
Innocence... When it is good? Obviously everyone has own answer... My answer is- it is touching and sweet for teenagers.... After that it is the sign of lack of libido(hormonal/other health problems), some psychological issues/traumas,general ignorance or very different strict religious/cultural upbringing,which highly likely will rise unsolvable problem in close relationship... Only IMHO...

Filter, you have raised a whole list of your girlfriend's traits and behaviors. What started out as praise for them in your last post has turned to potential red flags. She has not changed. Your perspective has changed because you discovered in conversation that she may be more predisposed to a childlike notion of romance and intimacy while you crave a sexual connection. Again, read all of your comments here - they all discuss how childlike she is and so on.

You say you have a whole lot of questions for her but what about you? You should be asking what drew you to her. What are your own internal processes? Why did you find her traits so appealing in the first place? Are you uncomfortable with more assertive women? Does your need to be acknowledged and affirmed (read respected here) over-ride your gut?

You want to know about red flags. The biggest red flags reside within ourselves. This woman did not dupe you. You were drawn to her. Ask yourself why. You said you find that you are a puzzle to yourself so go figure yourself out first.

Yeah, I wrote the first post before the "innocent and pure" conversation. I found myself asking reflective questions, but they seemed to be of a nature like "what is it about me that I attracted such a girl?" "Does my personality not exude enough sexuality?" "Am I too nice?" etc...I think part of what attracts me is that she is radically different from my ex. Ex was very sexually assertive, and very sexually experienced, when we met, Ex was very upfront, ex was white, feminist, father hating, assertive, and a total free spirit. This girl is not a free spirit, loves and respects her family, loves sarcastic humor (ex hated that), has a slightly reserved manner, is very indirect, etc... Basically, she is, in every way I can think of, unlike my ex. Ex is white, she is not. Ex has blond hair, she has black hair. Ex was older than me, this girl is younger than me. Ex had a body to kill for, this girl does not (still very attractive though!). Ex hated the wold of humans, this girl loves culture. So, I think, the answer is: she seems the opposite of the person who caused me so much pain. The place I live is very, very international, and I found that I didn't even feel remotely attracted to the even very attractive women here, all i saw when I looked in their eyes was potential heartache - I felt it down to my DNA. To make matters even less flattering, I did the same thing when I broke up with my first emotionally abusive girlfriend. Then along came my EX, who was so different. I think my need for affirmation comes from that first, emotionally abusive relationship, and from the low self esteem I had for so long (sooooo happy to be rid of that!!!!)

So you have some clues about your own triggers here. It seems to me that you frame your responses from a space of reactivity - your choices are borne out of the negativity you experienced - whether they are conscious or not, you are making choices. Now here's the thing. On one level, you can see that they lead you into a bind. On the other hand, it also means you can keep ascribing the responsibility for these choices to whatever befell you in the past - that first abuse. It keeps you off the hook, so to speak, since its not really your fault you keep falling in a hole.

This explains to some degree why when on your own, you feel you are a different person to when you hook up with someone. I reckon you have some stuff to sort out before getting into a serious relationship. My suggestion is that you need to learn to accept responsibility for having a relationship with yourself first before taking responsibility for having a relationship with someone else. Subconsciously, its tempting to default on that responsibility, especially when you have a ready and plausible explanation (the past emotional abusive relationships).

These are just my thoughts - I will state right here that I may be off the mark and I don't mean to offend. If it resonates I hope it helps. Be well.

On the mark or off, those are some great ideas for me to consider. in all honesty this is helping me sort some things out, and giving me some more clarity as to what I want. It all seemed so clear when I was leaving my marriage, I seemed to know exactly what I wanted in a women. Now, I'm not sure I trust my judgement in those things. Either way, I'm learning that, for me to feel and own my sense of self, I have to be ready to walk away at any time.

Mate I am going to push the issue here.

How about replacing 'I seemed to know exactly what I wanted in a women' with "I seemed to know exactly what I wanted in myself and of myself.'


replacing 'I'm learning that, for me to feel and own my sense of self, I have to be ready to walk away at any time.' with 'I am learning that I have underlying concepts about relationships which I need to explore before I am ready to embark on a healthy one with a woman.'

It's been said that seeking the opposite of something when that something caused you pain is a sign you aren't actually yet over the "something". Rebound Relationship: "One on the rebound may chose someone very opposite of the prior partner, as if they had "truly learned" the former partner was an unhealthy choice for them, but in the majority of cases this choice of a new type of person as a partner is short-lived." More info on rebounds:

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Virgin at 28
Never initiates, even in the beginning
No serious relationships before 28
Extreme shyness/antisocial

I think now I am confused, and have too many red flags, as I am screening everyone out. Is that happening to anyone else out there?

YOU MET LEONARD COHEN!!!!!!??????? OMG what I wouldn't give...well I'd probably likely be too star struck to not make an a&& of myself, but to me he's just such a genius. Totally jealous. Of course he mumbled to his feet ha ha ;)

This is like the time I was at my next-door-neighbour's party, and this guy kept staring at me... I ignored him, then the neighbour said afterwards "oh, yeah, he's left now, but that was ____ (local radio personality I listen to religiously every Thursday afternoon)... I was star struck and felt really dumb for not going over & introducing myself & letting him know how much I enjoyed his show

Those people are all wonderful (not the crazy nurse, obs), but none come close to the awe/reverence I feel for Mr. Cohen... granted I'm fairly sure I wouldn't want to be part of his close personal life, but musically and artistically he beats the rest hands down.

I was once walking down the street when I saw this older bearded guy. He definitely had something about him. He was giving me 'the look' and I was thinking "Who is this guy?" He looked me straight in the eye, forcing me to engage in eye contact. "Dirty old man," I thought.

About 10 paces after passing him, I realised it was Patrick Stewart. He'd been outside the Channel 4 building in London.

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Yep...I won't really see her until Saturday. I'll be loaded with questions! Funny, I feel really good after hashing this out.

<p>I've always liked the idea of raising red flags for THEM. Thing is, people are pretty nifty at lying or sugar coating their responses, so it can be hard to get a good assessment unless they're unguarded.</p><p>But if you are brutally honest in saying what YOU want (you started that to an extent) - then I think it can serve to flush the non-sex brigade, psychos and users out, so they will pick on some more compliant sap.</p><p>For example, you do not need to be explicit about the details for how your marriage ended, but you could say something like, "it got very difficult because I get ornery and unpleasant to be around if I don't feel intimately and sexually satisfied".</p><p>PS, your desc<x>riptions of the current situation do not sound like she is an adult. That would be a big one for me!

You know, it's funny, she is kinda child like in some ways.

Hl42, thank you for this idea. I so prefer this tactic. State your own expectations and let their reaction self-select one way or the other. Yes!

I loved it when I heard it - it has that judo quality of putting the onus on them. As well, I think it's signalling very directly that you are prepared to ask for what you want, and take action if you're not getting it - what better way to flush out the undesirables!

The fact that she's Asian, "respectful" of males, doesn't like men who are only after one thing, and is basically waiting for you to make a sexual move -- those things alone should be like huge neon signs telling you to run away.

What's asian got to do with it? (Not trying to pick a fight, but it's worth questioning).

tthetree - read HIS previous story

Ok, hmmm... There were a few points in the comments on that one. I'll hazard a guess that 'gold digging' is the one being alluded to here. I reckon that's not a particular cultural trait, it's just fairly common. I was in silicon valley during the tech boom, lots of former runner up Miss Nebraskas dating guys they wouldn't normally give the time of day to. But yeah, your ordinary joe doesn't normally feature on their radar. I guess I'm just bitter because I never made it as a trophy husband (or actually because I did...).

I think I remember her (I believe I ended up being an honorary vaghead, rather than just being a plain d1ckhead, although I may have mixed her up with someone else). Seemed mad as a fish...

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As a woman who *really* likes sex, this is a terrible sign. What are we, 13? If you haven't felt passion yet, it ain't coming. I'm sorry. Time to let her go find another cold fish and find yourself a hot one.

What did she say to your response?

<p>Ahh, red flags! There are so many . . . *weary sigh* lol</P><br />
<p>Fastidious about body fluids - has a fit if you use her towel. Wants to change the sheets after sex. Cannot kiss you until she's cleaned her teeth. No sex unless the sheets are clean, the legs shaved, the cat in care and the moon in the seventh house . . . Well, something like that anyway.</P><br />
<p>Respectful behaviour that means not touching, not expecting sex, not wanting to "rush" things, etc. This is especially true for many ILIASM women. After all those guys that "only wanted one thing" (thanks, mother!) the man who seems to desire to get to know you before wanting sex is VERY attractive! But it can be a sign of luke warm or absent sexual desire. Give me a guy I need to push away rather than one who wants to treat me with "respect"! (OK, I don't really mean that - but I'm sure you get what I'm saying.)</P><br />
<p>Selfish behaviour - sulks if does not get her/his own way. Might be very hard to detect at the dating stage - look carefully!</P><br />
<p>Does not like being told what you like or don't like - whatever it is. "You: "I don't like asparagus," Her (him): "That is ridiculous! Asparagus is fantastic. I love asparagus. You ought to eat it - you'd love it."<br />
(approved ILIASM response: "Don't you? I like it. What do you like?")</P><br />
<p>It is but a short step from that to:<br />
"Please stroke the back of my neck"<br />
Her (him): "I know what to do. Don't you think I know how to be a good lover?"<br />
(approved ILIASM response: "like this. . . ?" as demonstrates requested touch. . . . . .)</P><br />
<p>Any pathological behaviour! And you don't need to be a psychiatrist to identify it. No-one you identify as passive aggressive, narcissistic, addicted, bi-polar, etc. will end up in medical care on your say so! But if you are getting these "vibes" from behaviour, be CAREFUL!! So many of us simply allow our "care taker" self to react to damaged souls, not realising this is taking on a life long burden with little or no reward for us. And even worse, we are no great help to the other person either. It is our "rescuer"identity that takes over - and that doesn't serve anyone well.</P><br />
<p>No sense of humour; widely differing values; lack of agreement over having kids, or Mother going back to work, or where you will spend Christmas . . . . You need to have common ground or at least a willingness to compromise.</P><br />
<p>Bloody hard work, huh?? But worth it!!</P>

"I know what to do. Don't you think I know how to be a good lover?"

One of my husband's favorite lines.

Oh oh! Red flag. .. . . Sorry to hear that. {{{hugs}}}

Oh, a hug! I needed that. Yeah, I wish someone had taught me these things when I was young. Would have saved a world of grief.

Give it a time frame filter. She should be sleeping with you on a regular basis after 3 months of dating.

Stay Strong & Good Luck

Three months?!

This might be controversial, but in my limited experience, when it comes to adults who've been around the block a few times - assuming all goes well (the chemistry's there and you hit it off) - first date is pretty much the norm.

If nothing's happening after a few dates, I'd say it's a friendship - certainly it's not a good sign.

No way!!! Some men are hypocrites and are suspicious of women who go to bed too soon. If you're dating seriously no sex before the 3rd date. This is also a good rule for being able to observe other behaviours before your judgment gets clouded by lust.

You should be testing for chemistry on the first date. Passionate kiss could be 1st or 2nd date. But soon enough you should not be able to keep your hands off each other.

I'm not a hypocrite (well, not in this matter anyway), and it generally shows. I also live in a more permissive culture and am meeting women who are casually dating and know what they want. A number of lovers have stated that they don't have sex on the first date, nearly all of them then did so. I interpret this as them stating that they'd like to have sex but want to be treated with respect, care and sensitivity. If you make it clear that that's precisely how you conduct yourself in your words and actions and that you are a decent human being (and, depending on the individual, that you are vulnerable yourself, and would like them to treat you with similar care), then the 'rule' that was set earlier, gets quietly dropped. I don't believe this is down to my irresistible charm or devastating good looks, because I have neither, I think it's because normal people like to have sex.

Where is this more permissive place?

Casual dating is different from dating to seek a new partner. I have dated for affair partners and I don't have sex on a first date. (Well...ok, once.)

One of those liberal N european countries.

I don't see the difference between casual dating and dating to seek a new partner. It's simply the recognition that we're not necessarily going to immediately leap into a monogamous relationship just because we've had sex a few times, but neither does it preclude it. As I said, if you've been round the block a few times, it seems silly to deny yourselves a pleasurable few hours based on rules of this type (assuming there's trust, etc.). It's our former partners who made this stuff into a big deal. It isn't. It's normal to have sex.

I think 2 weeks is classical...No more...

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Filter, in any of your intimate talks with your girlfriend, have you talked about sexual intimacy? Have you discussed what you like and what you need? Have you asked her what she likes and needs? Seriously mate, if you are being passive, you are tacitly telling her you and she share a common understanding of love, lust and intimacy. This should have been one of the first takeaway lessons from your past experiences.

Let me be crude.

What is this chick doing with you ? Are you at a point of wild enthusiastic rooting ?

If you ain't (ie - there is no evidence of desiring you and a robust sexual life with you) then in that context her remark is big reddy.

Tread your own path.

Things progressing slowly, Right now it is half naked time and whatnot. While it is really nice, I can't help but think it feels a little high school. Seems to be at the point of going further, but when I see this and other flags, I think, yeah - not going to go down this road unless I see some very, very serious intimate investment on her part - without my urging.

As far as potential to be a situation of robust and enthusiastic sexual expression, I'd rate this as a non starter. She may be a lovely person though. Suitable to have on the periphery of your orbit. Can't see her ever ranking with 'the inner planets".
Run the clock on it. We are, all of us here, prone to hang in too long. Make it a short clock. You've known her 5 weeks ?? Another 5 weeks on the clock would be more than ampke I'd suggest.

A former friend of mine, who nonetheless has some qualities I admire, once turned to me in a discussion and said something to the extent of, "You know that feeling you get when you just know?" and gestured in the direction of her midsection. At that point I could say I had no experience with the instant sense of intuition she was describing, and not even a clue that such a feeling could or should be trusted. I've come to learn that we do, indeed, know. I hear you saying that your kishkes are talking, and they are telling you to move on.

Someone one told me to watch closely as to how a person eats and handles their food. Sensually driven appetites often mirror one another. A picky, uninterested eater will likely be an uninteresting companion in the bedroom. From what I've seen I believe it is true.

Interesting is it not Filter, that this post comes so soon after the last one which lauded your new girlfriend and her cultural predisposition towards respect. I am sure you have grown weary of my constant reminder to look within yourself and to nurture yourself awareness.

I too found it interesting. I'm starting to look at myself as a puzzle. When I am alone, my confidence is high, I can work hard, and really achieve things. When I'm in a relationship, I get so tied up in doing nice things, and gaining approval, that I seem to lose myself. Looks right now like this relationship is a no go. In the same conversation, several other flags popped up that it was like she had been reading right out of the refusers handbook.

So there's hope! Of not repeating the same mistake. Great to hear.

In my experience when a man has too much "respect" for his mother - when it borders on fear - there are going to be huge problems with his interpretation of female sexuality.

This one applies to women also. My wife still hides things from her mother that she fears will be disapproved of by her mother. My wife is 43 and is afraid to tell her mother that she drinks alcohol occasionally.

Yes. They view themselves as children faking an adult relationship. And they should because they are.

To state the obvious: repeated rejection of sexual advances.

Adults---well at least fully functional adults!-- WANT to have sex with someone they like/love! RED FLAG!!!!!