The Investment Factor - A Superficial Concern But Very Real

If Angel in Europe isn't ready to make the move, understand that. Don't tell her that she is being less than a good mother for staying. I get tired tired of people pushing their opinions on others.

I won't judge you at all.........................I totally understand your position. Some people would make comments. Ignore them and stick to those of us who are supportive of you.

I don't think this is really about fear of losing your stuff, it's about fear of taking control of your own life. If you dump this dead weight, you won't have anyone to blame your unhappiness on any longer. It's easier to be passive and resentful than it is to take charge of the situation and therefore take a huge risk. But the thing is, it ISN'T a huge risk. You aren't happy, you aren't getting what you need. All you have are some tchotkes and lace curtains. Are they more important than love? Or freedom from carrying around all this sadness and resentment and pain? If you stay with him, you will feel those things forever, 100000% guaranteed. If you leave, at least you have a chance at fulfillment and happiness. Isn't that worth some club chairs?

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I don't believe that you are driven by materialism---I think you are driven by fear.

What helped for me was when my fear of being trapped in an unsatisfying marriage surpassed my fear of what I might lose.

PS: kids don't give a crap about curtains, they care about being in a happy home with happy parents.

Ee. Look at my pics on my profile. There is one with 3 houses in it. And read the comments.

Engel: Every single person who has commented on your story has faced this choice. It doesn't take a financial analyst to realize that in almost all situations,one's standard of living is better as a married couple than as a single. This has been statistically proven true in the US.

Here in ILIASM, you have gotten opinions from Americans, Canadians, Europeans, Australians, and the ExPats (Americans living in Europe, like yourself). To a person, they have either supported your right to set your own priorities, or they have shared what led them to making their own choice(s), or they have kindly pointed out another point of view or a percieved weakness in your thinking. Did you really think that anyone in this group would say "Yes, the accoutrements of your life matter...you must stay in order to maintain your standard of living?"

Many of us do choose to stay because of the "things"...or at least it slows our decision down. I have a lovely "McMansion", complete with a wine cellar I designed and built, customized closets, and a built-in pool with decking. It's a great party house, too. There is no way DH or I could afford the house separately, but we can easily as a married couple. I struggled with this in the early part of my emotional separation process: I whined to an EPeep that I didn't want to leave my houssseeeee! But I got over that. I am only putting a minimal amount of money/effort into our living accommodations. Now, I already know that if/when I leave, I want the vintage dining room set with the amazing upholstery, which I designed if I don't get it...well...I'll find another and just start again (which in and of itself is an exciting prospect).

And as another poster pointed out...you don't really get money from him; you are the earner. It sounds like the biggest thing he contributes Is there any reason why getting another in the building which he will inherit couldn't be what he pays for to support you and/or Baby Girl in the divorce.

I feel like your recent stories have been reflecting why you "can't" rather than what you can do. I maintain that there is much more control that you have over your life than you believe; you would be wise to read VBM's words to you multiple times.

-MR

PS Why wouldn't all the beautiful rugs and orchids come with you to your new German apartment?!?! Send him off to the pub for a multi-day bender and take what's yours.

Engel, my dear, you just do NOT want to leave. That is FINE!! It is your life and your marriage. Your choices must be what YOU want to do. The rest of us can advise and suggest, but only you can CHOOSE.

You do not need to justify yourself to us or to anyone. Focus on your precious daughter and ensure she understands that life is not only about "owning things" - I'm sure you will do that. Take what comfort you can from the situation - you deserve that.

And remember that what you choose today does not have to be a "forever" choice. You CAN choose again if (or when) the shelf-life of this choice runs out . . . {{{hugs}}}

OK, this is very cliche, but: Have you ever watched a news interview of people who have just survived a hurricane/tsunami/flood/fire in which their home and most of their possessions were destroyed? A few might get weepy about losing their designer whatnots, but mostly they're simply glad to be alive. If they were able to save the family photo albums, bonus.

I put a lot of money into fixing up the house, especially at the end in order to make it saleable. I got out of the SM with my personal investments, my personal vehicle, my "own" family heirlooms, and otherwise, only whatever stuff my ex didn't want. He took all the good furniture and appliances.

I am alive. Wouldn't trade it for all the oak dining sets in the world.

Not saying it's right or wrong, in your case. Each of us has our own priorities for our own reasons.

you owe no one an explanation even though it is good to vent or explain to yourself, in writing. there are just as many people in your (ours) position.
There is no right or wrong situation. and there is nothing wrong avoiding that cliff, where you loose everything and there is no one throwing you a rope because no one wants to get involved, its your bed, sleep in it, wherever it may be

This Christmas, we're a little broke.

One of the reasons is that we spent a lot of $$$ year on helping others: paying the bonehead's bills for a month when he got fired when the kid had pneumonia, helping Penelope's sister pay down some bills so that she can leave her sexless marriage, underwriting some people to attend the Sexless meet up in Dallas, and on and on. It was our pleasure.

If we didn't have it, we wouldn't have spent it. Money is mainly for love and service to yourself and other, and then pleasure afterwards. If you're buying oil paintings, but hating yourself, you really shoulda stayed in bed.

EE: i haven't read all the comments & your replies, but i think i get the sense here that you are positing that you won't be able to give your daughter a good life if you leave. sorry to be brutal & blunt: that's BS. and staying where you are, no matter how beautiful the surroundings? will actually damage her far, FAR more than growing up without the gold-lined cage with an alcoholic father who can't or won't express emotions, and a mother who is miserably unhappy but "making do" with beautiful *stuff*. i call this the tyranny of the stuff. y'know, my daughter & i will go from living in a huge house in a beautiful neighbourhood filled with beautiful stuff--to a 2-bedroom apt in a complex with a community pool & clubhouse. she'll probably lose an activity or two. and there'll be conflict, no doubt. BUT. and this is the biggie: she'll grow up in a home that is HERS, where WE decide together how to decorate. our arguments will be about "normal" stuff. not the fact that she can't watch fun tv for 30 minutes before bed because H wants her to watch *his* choice. she won't live in a house where her mom n dad are fighting--all.the.time. she won't have to listen to her dad constantly criticizing me, AND her, because nothing is ever good enough. ever. she will revert to her naturally optimistic personality, instead of constantly complaining about small details, she'll be HAPPY that she got to ride in the parade, instead of complaining about how the girl next to her kept taking too much space, she'll bubble over about how fun it was to ride thru main st, and sitting in the front row of the float, no less! she'll relearn the glass half full outlook rather than adopting H's glass half empty and hey while we're at it, lets complain about the glass itself, outlook. yes i sound vehement. your daughter would never dream f telling you if she's unhappy or hurting inside--but trust me, despite your beautiful home & the current "advantages" in your current situation? she IS hurting. and she IS being affected, in numerous ways that will have profound impact on the rest of her life. STUFF matters not. you can always get more, different, stuff. you can't and won't be able to get more *life*. sorry to sound brutal if i have--you need to reassess. i believe your priorities are off. IMHO, ymmv.

I learnt at a very young age - stuff doesn't matter - no matter how nice, expensive or rare. Your happiness and the life you live are more important. The stuff we have accumulated over the many years of our marriage - doesn't matter to me at all - I would leave it behind, if I could be convinced this was the right thing for me to do.

Investment is about getting a return in value, not spending (tell that to governments!).

How is your stuff contributing to your current and future happiness?

No doubt you've heard of the sunk cost trap. The only difference is that you've made a gilded cage. Which is not an investment.

Probably only a very personal opinion and I am probably guilty of projecting badly on to you, but...

It's an awful cliché, as bad as it gets. There is only one type of life worth investing in and that is in you and in those who matter to you and should matter to you, not all this clinker and kitch that you surround yourself with. You have to worry about it. You have to insure it. You can't eat it. It won't cure you when you are ill. What really matters is that you can enjoy it, love it even, but it won't EVER love you.

If happiness and all that goes with it was a currency, what do you suppose you would be able to convert your Persian rugs, silks and fine porcelain into? I would suggest for very little.

If you see this stuff as ultimately being an investment into a financially secure but merely adequate future, a comfortable retirement and all that eventually, then I think I can understand. If it means more than that, well...

I would give it 10 years, 15 at the most. If you are still where you are now, then I would be surprised if you still feel the same way. We do change, we can change. At our own pace.

You sell yourself short. He has no money, you are the one making the money. Once you free yourself from the ball and chain, doors and opportunities are going to open. No one knows what they are, but I am certain you will find a way to create a life you love. I would lovingly suggest, that your future predicting capabilities contain certain per-determined faultiness. No where in your analysis, do you factor in your capabilities, your resilience, and your ability to craft and shape what you want, and yet, that is what you've always done. Your pragmatic assumption that the grass isn't greener, is severely faulted in this case, as a casual outside EP observer....

I bet you anything he doesn't give a flying F about those carpets and oil paintings. All the beautiful things in my house are mine. (barring one old box that came from his family - and I bet I even get to keep that - since it will go to my son) Even if he does want them - you'll get half of them. All of those things will be replaceable over the years. Window treatments....yeah...those probably wouldn't fit in a new place.

And wouldn't your in-laws perhaps furnish you with an apartment to keep their granddaughter in Germany?

-----"I liken it to an artist who has spent a long time painting a huge masterpiece."

An artist never becomes attached to their work.

Because if they do they lose their drive to create more.

Becoming attached to their work is the kiss of artistic death.

I think you are spot on is it worth the change to our comfortable lifestyles to get what we need and the answer for most is not really. The fact that your happy to admit that is very consoling.
But we only have one life to live

Resilience can never be handed to someone on a silver platter.

I cheer you on for speaking your mind.

Now, if I may speak mine...I used to be wealthy. It was all an illusion. I bought things to prove my happiness to myself. When one thing didn't do it, I'd move on to some new thing I "had" to have.

We split our existing possessions 50/50. The things he took, I miss not.

The years we wasted, I miss terribly.

Whatever makes you happy.

Your stuff isn't making you happy, but for now the illusion that it makes you happy makes you happy, so enjoy.

"It is not money itself. It is that I have put so much energy into creating an environment of beauty and art. My investment in building this pretty little bubble."

I understand!

Try this: Go out and look at a new apartment for yourself and baby girl. Daydream! Make it an affordable place within the post separation budget. Since you enjoyed creating the environment you are in now, picture yourself creating a pretty little apartment for you and baby girl in these new apartments. Picture the things you would be able to take from your current apartment (you would take some), and then picture what YOU may want to add - without asking anyone else's opinion or caring about their needs during the new bubble making process (ie: perhaps a very feminine bedroom, don't worry about a recliner or couch, whatever it is Mr. Engel likes to have - you don't have to have it now!)

You enjoyed shopping online auctions for beautiful things for your room. Guess what - now you get to do it - all over again! for your new home! What fun!! Look around when you go out shopping, and pretend you are furnishing your new apartment. You don't have to wonder what to do with the old stuff because there won't be any to move out of the way. You get to create your new bubble!! What fun!!

Picture how you will feel in this new home. Will it be peaceful? Calm? Joyful? Good smells? Pretty things? Soft textiles? Beautiful lighting? Artwork by beginning artists? What possibilities! What opportunity! What a future!

It can be a beautiful bubble just for you and baby girl

A guilded cage is very hard to leave... but a cage it is, and a cage it will remain...

Engel, we are friends. If I overstep here, I am sorry but someone needs to say it.



As your marriage has become less and less something you can put up with over time, you have started looking for "reasons" you stay. I know you are trying to justify staying. I get it. I did it too for a long while. I had lots of reasons I just couldn't do this.



It IS a huge change to conceptualize. Your whole world will be different. Your whole life. You won't have the free apartment and free utilities. You won't have the rugs and the orchids. You won't have 5-6 weeks vacation a year. You won't have the money to put your daughter in private school. I don't minimize any of those things.



You have all the makings of an anti-exit plan. You have all your reasons why not. Have you really tried to open your mind to an exit plan or several exit plan possibilities?



I am going to ask you again what I've asked you for some time now: How much money and material possessions are your sanity, your heart, your emotional and physical health worth? And with some of your activities, can you be assured that HE wouldn't end the marriage if certain things came out, negating all your efforts to protect the investment you've made? Without a doable exit plan you are not coming from a place of strength or even information - by exit plan, that means "worst case scenario, what could I do to mitigate the negative and create an entirely new life?" and "what do I want that life to look like, if I could pick anything and everything?" and then "how can I realistically get closest to that?"



Not all the reasons you CAN'T. All the ways you CAN.



I know you're struggling. You need a paradigm shift here. I hope you find it soon.

Some people marry for money.
Some people stay married for money.

What has me confused about your set up sister engel, is that Herr Engels set up seems to be a house of cards and he hasn't actually GOT any money.
There may be a chance of an inheritance of the building you reside in, but given what you have said abour Herr Engels family, you can bet there will be a **** fight over that and Herr Engel may be turfed out of the hacienda post haste.

Stay for money, by all means if that is what floats your boat - BUT BE ******* CERTAIN THAT THE MONEY IS ACTUALLY THERE - AND THAT YOU WILL GET YOUR RIGHT WHACK OF IT.

Tread your own path.

And:

We like to watch the reality show Pawn Stars (where people bring in their useless crap to sell at a pawn shop).

Whenever we see a guy with a great old KISS pinball machine (substitute whatever a mir carpet is), we KNOW that guy isn't getting laid. He just reeks of the sexless vibe. Once you're on the other side, you can spot it a mile away.

Me? I waved goodbye to $1M to be free. For my nuts back, it was worth it. Your own milage may vary.

No judgement, but:

Your money or your life.

It's just that simple.

There's an old story about monkeys. Some monkeys were causing mischief in a village. A trapper bore a hole in a few coconuts which he secured to stakes driven deep into the ground. He then partially filled the coconut with fruit and nuts. Soon enough, the monkeys arrived on the scene. They reached into the coconuts and closed their fists around the food inside. With food in their closed fists, they were trapped and all were caught. To escape to freedom, all they needed to do was let go but they could not bear to part with the food.

I found myself snapping at my kids "don't touch that!". I started to pile stuff up as he was doing, hoarding "my stuff". I couldn't save ENOUGH of my money. I wanted to pay off the house ASAP!!!

Then I lost my job. I think too when he DEMANDED 1/2 the house - after swearing up down & sideways he would NEVER take a penny from me - and I ended up settling on slightly less, but still a whack load of money - I realized, if that's the price I have to pay to start again, then so be it.

I'm still not out of the woods, but I too have started to give away "things". I've brought out the fine Japanese tea cups that my brother gave us for our wedding and we never used, and gave them to the kids to play with. I've given away the espresso maker, the fondu pot, the knick knacks. I'm slowly decluttering, knowing this phase of my life will be over - soon.

HIS clutter looks more incongruous day by day...

And every time I bring ANOTHER bag/box to the Value Village (charity) to give away, I feel a sense of lightness. I can concentrate better on my schoolwork. I can smile more at my kids. My attention is not divided.

In my Sexless Marrioage, "things" became very important to me. Both my Ex and I are avid collectors and we had some beautiful collections of things.

Once I was in a relationship where my personal, emotional and sexual needs were being met, my attitude to "things" changed . . . I found myself much less concerned about them. Instead of treasuring them in ways that made me feel they were an integral and essential part of my life, I began to see them as beautiful objects to admire, but not essential to my happiness.

You may find that your attitude to the lovely things you own changes if you are getting your most intimate needs met by personal relationships. I think this passion for beautiful objects is, in part, a substitute for our real needs . . . . .

I used to feel similarly in my story. "Husband makes it impossible to leave". I have been there done that. I still havent left yet. I used to think the same thing, but this is how I have started to think now, If I worked hard and accumlated all this stuff thats supposed to make me happy, why am I still so sad?

So I made an exercise of giving stuff away, selling it off all that. Selling the houses etc.

Everytime I get rid of my stuff, I realize I dont miss anything. I am not sad for anything.I dont have sex and love for last 11 years and I miss it tremendously, and it makes me very sad ..and it always will..