Hope For Those We Want It!

(Wife) First, I want to tell you I am writing this honestly and from the heart. I have nothing to gain from this post. I just want to help couples find each other again. I was the one refusing in our relationship. I just had NO desire to have sex. When we would have sex, it felt like a chore, I didn't realize it then, but I didn't really enjoy it very much.

As I said before, I grew up with totally dysfunctional, divorced parents. I suffer from severe PMS and depression and began taking antidepressants early in our relationship. The medication changed my life, in a good way. I wasn't constantly crying and freaking out. I actually felt happy and content. I was nice to people. I could function in life again. I wasn’t a psycho ***** all the time.

It wasn't until years later that I realized I had no desire for sex. (I'm sure my husband noticed much sooner than I did.) We would have sex a few times a year, only when I initiated it because he couldn't handle my rejection any more. There were times I longed to hold him, to hug him, to feel his arms around me. I wouldn’t do it, I was afraid he would want to have sex.

He would try to talk to me about it, but I would get defensive. I'd cry, tell him I didn't know what to do, that I didn't know what was wrong with me. I told him he should **********! (I honestly didn't think he ever did, he of course was ************.) I would even think to myself that if he had an affair that I would be ok with that! Then I wouldn't have the pressure of him wanting sex. What was I thinking? There was NO WAY, I could survive him being with someone else.

I didn't understand why sex was so important to him. We really love each other and I would do anything for him. Every time we would talk, the same thing would happen. I would get angry for the pressure he was putting on me. I admitted it was my fault, that I didn't know what was wrong with me. I just didn’t know what to do, where to go for help.

I talked to my doctor, she asked if I would eventually get into it when we were having sex, I said yes. Could I ******? Yes. Her suggestion...have a glass of wine. Nice. Didn't she understand how hard it was just to tell her I had no desire? More years passed and then we had a break through.

THE FIRST STEP TO MY RENEWED INTEREST IN SEX
My new doctor gave me Wellbutrin HCL SR 200 mg to help me try to quit smoking. I didn't quit smoking, but I was really, really horny! Hornier than I can ever remember being. At first we just went with it, we were both so excited to be having sex again. I started researching sexual side effects
Welllbutrin and low and behold, hyper-sexuality is a side effect for some people.

SECOND STEP TO OUR AWESOME SEX LIFE
My husband gave me a Kindle Fire for Christmas last year. I began reading romances, which is an awesome way for women to get in the mood. Having the Kindle is so freeing, no one can see your book cover. You can read things you wouldn't if anyone could see the title! There are a gazillion different romance genres to choose from, so there is something for everyone. I could also connect to the internet and go to sites like EP since I wasn't sharing with my kids.

I started reading more hard core erotica, which totally got the fires BURNING. Then I read 50 Shades of Gray. That is when I learned so much about myself. The beginning of the book was shocking to me. Hard limits! Spanking! Being tied up! Holy crap! How could that be sexually satisfying? But the more I read the more turned on I got! I shyly talked to my husband about it, having him read excerpts when I was too embarrassed to talk about what was turning me on. Slowly we learned together and tried new things.

Turns out I like to be dominated in the bedroom! (Believe me I am a strong willed woman and I am usually in charge of things.) I had no idea, seriously! When my husband takes control away from me, it is just so freeing. Knowing that he has can do whatever he wants with my body is so hot, makes me feel so alive. BDSM sounds so scary, but it really doesn’t have to be scary. Everyone’s tastes are different. You don’t have to hang by your toenails to enjoy a little kink.

For me it enables me leave my daily life and worries behind and loose myself to the sensations. Being blindfolded and tied to the bed sets my mind free. I become hyper aware of my surroundings. Every tiny caress, kiss and nibble or slap feels so intense. My husband takes the time to love my body. He makes me feel desirable. I know he is getting off on looking at me, being with me. It may seem unfair and that he has to do all the “work”, but in the long run, I’m sure he would agree, it is totally worth it!

We talk about everything now and I asked him today if it turns him on to do those things to me. He said it does, very much. We’ve both grown so much in the past year. We have learned things about ourselves that were very surprising and we did it together. I feel sexy, we flirt with each other all the time and we really kiss again. THERE IS HOPE!

Honestly search your heart. If you still love him/her and he/she still loves you and you still find each other physically attractive then you have to try something, anything, everything, before it’s too late! B
1hotcouple 1hotcouple
46-50
12 Responses Jan 9, 2013

I do wonder sometimes whether many of the women refusers are -- as are the majority of women -- turned on by dominant men, but unfortunately the refusers are married to submissive men. Many of the men who post here seem to long for sexually very assertive women. Those men seem to have not been very dominant during courtship: For instance they may have married virgins or the men may have settled for very little sex early in their marriage.

I know my refuser husband was passive, submissive and inhibited about sex, very different from the men iny fantasies, but he seemed safe since he didnt have an explosive temper like my dad.

Just dropped in to say....we're still going strong. For those of you who have it, keep the faith!

I need to buy stock in Wellbutrin. Your words have been my wife's words. There may be hope after all.

As the formerly refused husband, the stock is now a large part of my portfolio :)

Thanks for sharing, it gives me hope, and it's why I'm here at ep

"If you still love him/her and he/she still loves you and you still find each other physically attractive then you have to try something, anything, everything, before it’s too late! B"

Well this certainly sums it up. If the only real problem is that you have medications that lower your sex drive, then switching to one that increases it sounds like a great way to turn things around. That you can leverage this further using "mommy ****" sounds like a fantastic opportunity for you and your spouse.

BTW, having an e-reader is nice, but it doesn't work particularly well for guys. We have a hard time hiding the uplifting reaction to sexual content in a public setting. Plus, who wants to get bombarded with advertisements for sexual material on your e-mail account after ordering a romance novel. Try and explain to your children why sexually explicit advertisements with graphic covers are suddenly showing up on your computer every time you shop for the next six months.

It's good that you discovered this solution early enough. It's even better that your husband was still willing to work with you, and hadn't begun to counter refuse. For many of us, there may not be a magical potion for our partner. Or at least they may not want to take one, even if it was directly at hand.

I'd suggest this.

Go back say 3 months into the stories.
Pick any 10 you like.
Fully read each story and the comments there-on, especially comments made by the original poster.
Then, follow each original posters next story, old story, newer story, comments and all.
In other words, get the back story. Look at the OP's profile. Gather as much information as you can.

Roughly, in your head, keep a tally of how many of the marriages look fixable. Naturally this is a subjective judgement on your part (as will be for anyone else caring to undertake this excercise)

Now I don't want to pre-empt your findings in doing this work (if you can be ****** doing it), but I have done it (many times over my nearly 4 years on this board), and the same figures come up again and again.

I'd be interested in what your subjective findings might be.

Tread your own path.

You mileage may vary in that. In stat research, we try to watch out for "sample fallacy".

This fallacy is what happens when we represent the results of a particular subset of a population, and pose it as being representative of a much wider, general view.

This group is what we call a "self-selecting" sample. It is composed almost entirely of people who are in intimacy averse relationships. Once people leave that "sexless" marriage group - either by leaving the marriage, or by having sex, or by acquiescing to not having sex and being ok with that - then they are much less likely to post here. My hunch is that those who left their marriages will have a bias to stick around, rather than those who found something that works for them (and I'm certainly pleased that they have, because I rely on them to challenge my views).

My hunch is reinforced by the treatement that I see foisted on people, such as in this thread, who find angles that work for them, which often includes a retroactive "exclusion" from the initial problem. Now, I see a "jaded marriage" vs "dysfunctional marriage" category introduced, which has the effect of retaining the purity of the original hypothesis, which seems to be that nothing can be done, and divorce is the only option. Which may, or may not, be true. But that doesn't mean that it's a bit of a logical pretzel. From the standpoint of a complainant, a jaded marriage vs a dysfunctional one appears to be pretty much the same thing.

So, yes, you can poll or sample the group at large, and doing so, unsurprisingly, you will find a number of sexless and dead marriages.

There is a smaller subset here of people who have made significant gains and insights into their situation, with some success. Rather than looking at the numbers game, trawling for what a new poster would likely view as an unsuccessful result (a divorce - and I recognize that a divorce can also be a successful result), I would want to look specifically at the views and approaches of the handful of cases that have had positive results, and see what's common there, if anything.

You make a lot of sense Apocrypha - but your reply avoids the fact that MOST marriages on this forum ARE "dead in the water". Those marriages that are not are the fortunate few - and all of us are glad that they exist.

I have a problem with your suggestion:
"I would want to look specifically at the views and approaches of the handful of cases that have had positive results, and see what's common there, if anything."

This is certainly a worthwhile thing to do for most people - BUT! only once they have truly grasped how dysfunctional their marriage is. As a newbie, I came here filled with shame, embarrassment and despair. To my knowledge I was the only woman in the world whose husband steadfastly refused her for decades. . . .

Had I read stories like this at that time, my initial mind set would have been CONVINCED I was the cause of all my problems. Because I had tried such things many times, without success. I also would quite likely have left ILIASM immediately, even more dejected than before.

The greatest "aha" moment for me was reading a sentence by King Fu Chic which said something like "it is OK to leave a sexless marriage".

So you can see that different things resonate with different people. I think I can safely say that there IS a difference between "jaded" and "sexless" marriages. It is a bit like the difference between dyspepsia and a heart attack - they can feel very much the same, but one is critical. The other, fortunately, is both temporary and easily treated . . . . .

Re: jaded vs dysfunctional- I get it. There is a difference - that's not in dispute. But someone coming here expecting help with a jaded marriage is going to be advised to cut bait and divorce, when maybe it really IS helpful to try out something new, because at the outset, they appear the same.

I've seen all kinds of people on here, on both sides of the spectrum, who are unwilling to challenge their view on the level of change they are capable of. "I would never do THAT!" For some, oral sex is disgusting. For others, a bit of spanky spanky is anaethema to their ideology. For others, religion fuels strong prohibitions around sexuality, or their sense of "normalcy" might prevent a partner from volunteering something that is indeed a prerequisite to getting turned on, or even daring to explore it. I'm sure nearly all of us in long term sexless relationships have said we were game for whatever it takes, but when the rubber hits the road with that statement - that's where we bump into limits (if indeed there is enough trust to even discover what it takes). How much are we really willing to negotiate there? Within this group, there is plenty of room for people using alternative approaches to sexuality, because there are plenty of people who HAVE alternative sexual desires, and plenty of us to shame them for it. I think it's tempting to brand this as some kind of "scented candles" thing, but I don't think so. I think it gets into core desires and pyschology within sex - if someone likes it rough and spanky, and her partner "turns it up" by offering spiced oils and further deferrment to let her lead, there's a serious disconnect.

Where you and I enthusiastically agree here, is that it is ok to leave a dysfunctional marriage. Once you come to that point, you will be prepared to risk its imminent dissolution - to hold the status quo hostage, or shoot it in the knee to prove a point. To get real change, a partner needs to realize that the pain of not seeking real change exceeds his or her ability to tolerate it within the existing dynamic.

enna -- *like*

It should also be noted that among the intimacy averse within various relationships, there are many who would sooner see the dissolution of the marriage than actually admit what they really want (even to themselves, let alone a partner) and risk being shamed, or identifying with a group that they don't want to belong to. Repressed gays don't necessarily hold the monopoly on this kind of paralyzing fear, and it isn't always an unwarranted fear either.

The scented candles and variants there-on ARE actually useful in my opinion.

If you trial them, for a reasonable period (not just "one off") then you find out pretty quick whether you have a jaded marriage (because the tactic worked) or whether you have a deeply dysfunctional situation (because the tactic didn't work.

What gets my back up is where the member here has done the scented candles trials, and they haven't worked, and this information is in their back story - yet - persons will offer up the scented candles tactic again. Presumably because they are too ******* lazy to read the posters back story.

Fair enough.

redzcar, on the contrary. She did NOT desperately want to fix the sexlessness. The following are her words:


" My messed up childhood, crazy mother, absent father, low self esteem, sexual abuse and chronic depression all led to our sexless marriage. My coping method, antidepressants. Prozac. Took it for years and years. Prozac KILLS YOUR SEX DRIVE. About a year ago, after trying different drugs. I was given Welbutrin HCL. The Dr. didn't mention the side effects, but they became apparent soon enough. Welbutrin increases libido and ability to get off in some people. I'm one of them. Hallelujah praise the Lord! The other factors that have contributed to our "sexual renaissance" are varied and I will go into detail if anyone is interested."


As you see, this couple's "fix" to their sexless marriage was, by and large, a complete fluke. There was no "years and years of trying." The way they present their solution is very "scented candles-like." Sure, there's nothing inherently wrong with that approach, but their simplistic attitude towards most of the people here who've been trying, or have tried to get their spouses to try and to care about sex, well, it's offensive.

Oh, and, incidentally, increased libido is not a side effect of Wellbutrin. Rather, removing Prozac, which does have the side effect of sexual dysfunction, is what helped "bring the libido back."

"but their simplistic attitude towards most of the people here who've been trying"
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Miss Lee, I think the BDSM equals abuse attitude you have expressed is simplistic, and I think your characterization of their journey is offensive. Who are you to characterize their struggle, and how do you really know how difficult it was for them to come to a place where they could both feel safe discussing what they want?

What if the woman in this couple, after taking a risk to explain what she wanted to explore, had her husband respond as you did, telling her that her desires were evidence that she needed psychological help? Do you think, after having such a difficult time, and with their mutual backstories, that it would be an easy or cavalier discussion for these people to have? Do you think, given her background, that it wouldn't be challenging to try to work with it, rather than fighting it, and turn her sexual associations into something the two of them can explore in a benign way?

From the former refused here - I guess I really need to put up my side of the story so folks can have a better understanding why I'm qualified to be giving advice.

You have no idea the years and years of trying I did. 20 years of trying should give me some credibility here.

And, for those that think I need to read more of the stories here, as an FYI, I was a member and poster of this forum for a long time under a different user name at the time when things weren't working. I am no newbie to this whole scene. The only reason I came back here was because after 20 freakin years, we found something that worked, and I wanted to shout it from the mountain tops.

So, we've been called offensive, insulting and clueless, but you know, I understand your bitterness. Been there. But, I still hold out hope for some of you. For me, the jury is out as to whether I'll remain in this group and tolerate the bashing due to our good intentions.

I realize that it's difficult for some people to get their heads around. Perhaps it warrants its own story. I happen to be intimate friends with a woman who is very much into BDSM, and who also had a terribly abusive childhood. This was no easy journey for her, I assure you.

While it isn't presently my own brand of kink, I have had cause to put some time into understanding the way it works. BDSM, practiced mindfully, is an exploration of trust. If someone's tragically formative associations with sexual expression are formed of pain or forced submission from someone exploiting them, one can choose to swim against the current of their natural inclinations and fight them, or they can eventually acquiesce enough to accept them and turn them into a different context with a loving partner or scenario that is not exploitative, and where they have choice. In essence, it's overwriting the scene to appear somewhat similar to the novice observer, but to mean an entirely different thing.

She is still taking prozac also

MissLee, you are incorrect about Welbutrin. It does increase libido in a decent number of patients. Having taken it to get through temporary depression for a year or so I can tell you from personal experience that it does increase libido and increased the number of ******* I was capable of having. It does not have that effect on everyone but it does on some.

Interesting. Not sure why it doesn't list it in my med book but yet will list "sexual dysfunction" for other meds. Weird, but hey - bonus I guess for some peeps.

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I think the reason for resistance to such solutions is that many of us believe that sexlessness is simply one symptom (usually the most obvious symptom) of a dysfunctional marriage. If sexlessness can be turned around by imagination and doing things that have not been tried before, it seems likely this marriage does NOT meet the generally accepted criteria of sexless marriage - as we see it on ILIASM.

The term "jaded marriage" would seem more appropriate in these cases. Both partners have an interest in regaining their sex life together. Both partners are open to trying new things. Both partners can see that their problems might be addressed by overcoming the staleness, predictability and downright boredom of their existing sex life . . .

In the commonly accepted definition of a sexless marriage (here on ILIASM) there is one partner who is NOT going to participate in such activities. That partner is shocked, horrified, revolted or scornful of ANY sexual activity. That partner sees sex as a pest, a nuisance, unnecessary, unpleasant, an unfair demand on them . . . . When a person has such an attitude it is simply not POSSIBLE to turn things around by spicing things up!

If I LOATHE curry, does it make me want it more if you give me a hotter version? If I feel my spouse is forcing me to eat curry, do I suddenly find I like it if he serves it in bed, with a rose between his teeth?

IF your marriage can be resuscuitated in this way, you are very fortunate. You can and should recognise that your sexless marriage is (was!) at the farthest and most benign end of the sexless marriage spectrum. That is great - no-one begrudges you that success.

But to imply or insist that sexless marriages in general will benefit from this sort of approach is to deny the REALITY most of us live with. It is this implicit denial of our truth that tends to raise the hackles of posters here.

"But to imply or insist that sexless marriages in general will benefit from this sort of approach is to deny the REALITY most of us live with. It is this implicit denial of our truth that tends to raise the hackles of posters here."
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If I understand what you are saying, the reason for the emotional response to someone sharing experiences that helped THEM, is that people who endure or left their marriage end up feeling defensive. They feel that the advice that worked implies that they have not worked hard enough.

But I don't see that posed by the OP here. The OP has not claimed that all marriages are going to be saved through this angle. The OP has claimed that this worked for them. What's more, I've met a few couples where it helped too, so this is not unique advice. I'm pleased that they posted it and offered something to think about. I've seen other posters, reporting various successful outcomes also enduring gripes from people still in the trenches, for similar reasons.

I flinch at this newer tendency to start disqualifying advice through this "jaded marriage" disqualification, as opposed to a "dysfunctional marriage". For someone stuck in the middle, or coming to the group for the first time, how the hell would they know what they are in until they work through it? And what is the point of disqualifying such success? This is a Sexless Marriage forum. Not a "Dysfunctional, rather than Jaded" forum.

The fact that some couples actually turn the Titanic away from the 'berg, should not deny you your truth.

I would also pose that intimacy averse marriages are a complex problem, and that there is likely not to be a carte blanche answer here.

While it's tempting to look at granular reporting and be critical of implying that reading bodice ripping romance is going to save a marriage, I think it's useful to zoom way out and look at the significance of what was done, in the context that was offered.

And what I see in this example is a couple where both were game to change their expectations around sex significantly. I don't imagine both sides just came up with it on their own. I imagine a series of titillating and perhaps fearful and tentative discussions prancing around the topic for some time before finally jumping in.

Does it work if both aren't onboard? Nope. I suppose that's why I tend to advocate tipping the marital boat, to achieve the scale of change needed. Posing the choice between exploration and sexual offroading such as this, and separating - seems about right to me. At that point, doing nothing results in certain loss, so there's little impetus to refuse to change.

Redzcar, I can't really answer your question without you providing more information about which point I'm missing or what exactly is off base. I was posting here because I thought some of the comments (Miss Lee, bazzaar, and Enna30) warranted some discussion.

I'm not actually sure what YOUR point is, Redzcar (other than you disagree with me about something). My own wife and the wife of some dear intimate friend, have also worked with a great deal of urgency to fix their problems.

I'm not clear on why some people in this group are compelled to attack those who have offered a flake of success within certain circumstances, but it happens enough.

There is common ground between your approach and ours, hotcouple. Yes, as others have pointed out - it involves both partners genuinely wanting to generate desire. But it also involves a fairly significant factor that I recognize, and that is "changing the conversation" around sex. Changing what sex is.

While some want to dismiss the reading of 50 Shades, they are missing the point. It's not just the reading of the book and getting horny. It's having the imagination, the desire, and the will, to incorporate a significant divergance of the sexual dynamic into one's relationship, such that sex is redefined to a point where both parties are engaged in mutual exploration. It doesn't have to be BDSM. I'm sure for certain parties, it could simply be oral, or shaving. The point is about daring to do something different - something that challenges one's notion of sexual identity even, to do something they didn't think they could or would do.

At that point, the novelty and exploration become significant enough to hopefully drown out the toxic cycle of expectation and fear from familiar routines.

"It's having the imagination, the desire, and the will, to incorporate a significant divergence of the sexual dynamic into one's relationship, such that sex is redefined to a point where both parties are engaged in mutual exploration."

Thank you for the beautiful way you articulated what has happened between us and part of the reasons why.

"No one is attacking this persons success, we are all grateful for it."
"Read enna30's comments again"
----
Red, how about you read MissLee's comments again. This prompted my response, which prompted Enna's, which blossomed into an interesting discussion, which seems you have diminished.

Below:
"Do you realize that the things that turn you on (bondage, being blindfolded, being touched without giving your permission, etc) really, REALLY reeks of some ****** up psychological **** because of your past sexual abuse? Have you ever seen a shrink for your past issues?"

Does this sound like a celebration, Red?

"your lack of common sense and inability to find the result of 4 when adding 2 plus 2. Read enna30's comments again, then think before your write another comment."----------
I am confident that Enna30 and I are more than capable of respectfully and thoughtfully articulating and working through any difference of opinion or misunderstanding we might have.

Based your series of vague and belligerant responses, I don't have that confidence with you, but I hope to be surprised.

You are a refuser who wanted to change.

The majority of people here are married to spouses who have no desire to change. It is wonderful that you and your husband have rekindled your sex life. I think you may be met with some disbelief or hostility because there is no hope of change if the refusing partner does not want to engage in a marital sex life.

Since the majority of people here have tried everything under the sun to solve the problem, and can't accomplish it because their partner doesn't crave the change, there is no hope in your post for most members.

You can fix it! All you have to have is a partner that wants to fix it!

Most aren't in such a situation.

Once again, BOTH parties need to put in the effort to save the marriage, of their own free will. Medicating one or both partners might be a bit of a turnoff.

And both parties really did put in the effort...and it paid off big. Why the aversion to medication? If you were diabetic, would you not take insulin everyday if that's what it took?

Absolutely! And that reasoning did NOT work with my ex. He said the pills made him "feel funny". He refused to try anything else. He preferred depression and misery.
I am sincerely glad the two of you managed to improve your situation, and I agree some aspects of your solution could apply to others, but readers should realize your solution is not universal. See Enna30's comments; she says it better.

Also, I am calling bullshit. You have said that your marriage has been fairly sexless for most of it, and that you've had more sex in the very recent past than you've had in the last 20 years. You've said that you were not at all into sex because of depression, a dysfunctional childhood, absent father, and sexual abuse. But now, after reading about BDSM and switching anti-depressant meds, you're suddenly "sexually awakened" and totally wanting to **** your husband.


Do you realize that the things that turn you on (bondage, being blindfolded, being touched without giving your permission, etc) really, REALLY reeks of some ****** up psychological **** because of your past sexual abuse? Have you ever seen a shrink for your past issues?

"Do you realize that the things that turn you on (bondage, being blindfolded, being touched without giving your permission, etc) really, REALLY reeks of some ****** up psychological **** because of your past sexual abuse?"

From the Mr. Here, can you please let us know how/why your are qualified to make this diagnosis? I don't beat the **** out of her you know. It's a very loving environment.

Miss Lee, dominance and submission needn't be prima facie evidence of abuse. Done within ethics and love, they are, or should be, explorations of trust and surrender - the sexual equivalent of "the trust game" where someone crosses arms on his chest and allows himself to fall backwards into the arms of a partner.

Beyond that, I think among consenting adults that if there is no body, there is no crime. "Curing" someone of a desire to be dominated within a context, if nobody is hurt by that role-played stance, doesn't seem that different from wanting to cure someone from being gay.

Look, no offense, but most sexless marriages don't respond to major overhauls let alone respond to reading some poorly-written erotica and acting out what you've read.


Romance novels are to women what graphic *********** is to men. Sorry, but you weren't into your husband, but you need(ed) a stimulus to get geared up to **** him. Or to at least let him **** you. Good for you guys, I guess, but you and your husband keep traipsing in here with your bag-o-tricks trying to proselytize.


We get it. Anti-depressants, ****** erotica, and BDSM are the ticket. Great. Thanks.

We certainly aren't here to proselytize. We're simply throwing out ideas of something that helped us. Take it or leave it. I have had several private messages thanking us for our contributions. It has given them hope.

My wife has always been "into" me. I'm a great looking guy with a wonderful personality. It's not that she wasn't interested in sex with me...she wasn't interested in sex at ALL. Have you tried antidepressants, ****** erotica or BDSM? From what experience do you draw your conclusions?

The key to our success is that we have always loved each other very deeply. If you don't have that, then I imagine you don't stand a chance.

I was the guy that didn't get what I wanted for 20 years and you know, it was worth the wait. I would rather wait out 20 years to experience this with the love of my life than spend 20 years ******* someone I didn't love so deeply everyday.

"Look, no offense, but most sexless marriages don't respond to major overhauls"
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When you read the collective misery expressed on this board with minimal effect, do you see people actually doing major overhauls?

I see people in pain.
I see people expending tremendous effort to cope with status quo and to make it work.
I see people taking risks to express their pain to their spouses, sometimes for decades on end.
And those things, especially the latter, are appropriate for a group created for the purposes of sharing an experience.

But I don't necessarily see a lot of folks doing what I would might call a "major overhaul" on themselves or their marriages. To earn that title, I think we'd need to see a significant behavioral change in either one or both parties. Something that goes beyond talking.

^I agree 100% with Apocrypha on this.

I agree 100% with Apocrypha on this also....

I know that when it came to my situation, the major overhaul happened when i finally found a way for me to be able to face reality, and leave..That was a huge huge wall for me to get over. I never did find a way to just fix the marriage, and trust that it was fixed..i knew i could not deal with a relapse of the sexlessness. ..i just could not. I was on very shaky emotional ground.

I don't think anyone would say that you didn't do a major personal overhaul, Neu. You are a great example of someone who really tried everything before leaving.

Don't worry yourself -- I have no problem keeping up. I do know quite well that medications can mess up a person's libido. I am not against antidepressants at all. I take a few different medications, and I'm also in the medical field, so yeah, I know damn well about side effects.

The persons here claiming that the majority of persons here are not prepared to undertake a major personal overhaul seem to me to make a reasonable case.
This is only anecdotal, but it is far from rare to see an initial poster blaze in with a tale of woe, get some advice about what they could do (be that getting off their arse to see a councellor, or a lawyer etc etc and taking a good hard look at the marriage and themselves) and - - - poof - - - they are gone and are never seen again. (Note - 8 out of ten initial posters here are never seen again after their first story)
I would speculate that they disappear because they are not interested in something that is going to take some hard painful work and discipline.

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