He Listened - updated

I think I see why this is happening. First of all you see yourself as right all the time, having the only proper answer...basically, the perfect female. You see your husband as an aloof fool. He can never win in your world...why would he even try? I think that's why he's been so upset. You say you even left him, you think that helped? Also another thing you barely mentioned but I think is much bigger than you say it is. You say that you recently lost weight. When a married man sees he's wife get fat and unattractive and he won't want sex, at least not as much as if you didn't have weight problems (this comes from personal experience) . You think parading around in your red bra is going to attract him if you have a weight problem? It won't...only demenstate to him even further you don't think you have a weight problem. He reaction to be upset is understandable, I know that's the way I would react. I also think that you working a different shift than your husband is a real problem. If you expect to be his total focus when he comes home from work, you're being unreasonable. Work takes alot out of a man, especially when he is expected to supply most of the money.

If you read the complaints of men about their wives in EP you see many common themes that are present here:

1) no sex...check
2) the wife gets demanding and b*tchy...I do see this here...check
3) the wife gets fat and unattractive...check
4) the wife reverts to leaving where there are problems (in her mind)...check
5) expected to come up with a plan to fix everything while the wife doesn't offer any solutions, only points blame...check

So there you have it, maybe if you work on some of these things, he will respond. You won't though. You're perfect. How dare anyone tell you you're wrong. It's all he's fault, he's aloof and stupid.

If you love this guy, in spite of it all, you may get further if you can get him to go to counseling with you. I doubt he will find it in him to get an "action plan" on his own. I have a kid with learning challenges and severe A.D.D. Teachers can remind him to be on task, but the deeper problem is--my kid doesn't know what to do when he IS on task. He lacks the "tools," if you will, to follow through with a project or assignment. Your man may have a similar problem. If you think you have something worth saving, maybe more or different outside help will work. But outside help will only have an impact IF your guy WANTS to work on your relationship, as well as himself. One-sided rescues rarely work. I know--I've tried. I've let myself be deceived by a narcissist for years. Now I just want to find a way for my kid and I to get away from him. Good luck!

You are right, him hearing you means nothing at all, especially if he still doesn't give a crap.
You look like you know what you are doing and you have your answers, so just take baby steps and it will all fall into place.
Best wishes hun.

Your background impels you towards a healthier life. His background defines his nature. You can chalk that up as another basic mismatch in the relationship.My perspective on reset-behavior: at the beginning of my wake-up journey, H would make a requested change for one or two days. I would then think everything was fine and go back to being the loving spouse I wanted to be, that I had been when we decided to marry. I trusted him to be as good as his word. Ah, but then H would revert. He did it (whatever "it" was) once or twice, and figured that was good enough, and life could go back to the way it was. After several months of this, my heart grew hard. The moment I could not give a flying frack about a specific behavior that would help repair things, he would start to do it fairly regularly. This hardened my heart even more, and just proved his level of spiteful sullen teenage pay-back. So now that my heart is permanently hardened towards H, his behaviors within the relationship have improved overall so that things are manageable as I work on my exit plan. Recently I told him that he is not as nice as he would like to think he is. He shocked me by agreeing. But no matter what he does/says/becomes, I cannot revert. If I did, he probably would, too.

-----" I simply asked if he'd thought about what I said the other day. His response....'Well, sure". PERIOD. NOTHING ELSE... I waited. So my follow up question was " SO any ideas about what we should we do next?' He kinda "Hemmed and hawed"...then came out with " ummm not really."

Been through this same experience myself (the talk - then wait a couple days and do a verbal follow up to exchange ideas to no avail) - that is what prompted my earlier comment!

What you see is what you get. There will be no changes and there were never going to be any changes in maturity level. The apex of his emotional development (where the body keeps growing but emotionally something seems to get "stuck") probably happend at around age 13 - thus there will never be any "dealing with issues" like an adult.

It is hard to accept the truth and your own complicity in these long term dynamics, but you will have to. Expecting him to change is not realistic and he is certainly allowed to live as he sees fit just as you are allowed to live as you see fit.

I wish you the best in formulating a plan to live a higher quality of life.

With, or without, said husband.

so sorry, though sadly not surprised, to read your update. how painful the message they send us through their silence, inaction, indifference. it is excruciating. sending you peace, and loving care.

time to start exploring *your* options. as baz so rightly says, frame it in i/me context. any time thoughts of or worries about him (habits of years take some time to decondition), push them aside and refocus on just you.

the exploration should include an attorney consultation.

good luck

xo

Dear ExistsinHOPE,
Do accept my ((hugs)) for You. Your profile name says a lot about You. I sincerely wish You don't leave Your HOPES.
Prayers for Both of You.
__/|__

I seriously doubt (i.e., don't believe for a single second), he will do anything either.

I am so sorry you are going through this pain and loneliness.

No matter what the reason that your husband is unable to participate in an intimate relationship, it all boils down to the same thing. He is UNABLE to be in an intimate relationship. You are right. It is sad.

The good news is that the option of finding a partner who is capable of intimacy is still available to you, if this is what you desire. It will take work and healing and courage. Leaving a long term relationship is never easy. There are reasons why we stay that usually have far less to do with real need of our spouse and far more to do with our own fears and belief systems.

I had such a pattern of unhealthy relationships, I truly didn't believe men who were capable of intimacy existed. When I first left my ex, two and a half years ago, I was truly convinced that all men were emotionally impotent and worse. It was less to do with man bashing and more to do with my string of miserable experiences. Of course, it was because of my co-dependency and childhood history that I found myself in these relationships with unhealthy partners (but hell, I was unhealthy for being there and submersing myself in such misery, so I had to spend a long while dealing with that trip)!

But, there are actually other male human beings on the planet who would just ADORE you for your sexy red bra and willingness to bridge communication in tough situations.

You may, of course, desire to alone for a good long while and spend time alone. Or, just explore and date. But, never ever ever doubt that there is a whole different way to be in relationships that is open to you when you move forward.

Good luck and power to you.

(after your update)
You gave him the opportunity. He pissed it up against the wall.

You now know beyond any reasonable doubt that there is no "we" in your dynamic.

Your counter to this is likely best served by you adopting "me" thinking and weaning yourself off "we" thinking as soon as you can.

If you make informed "me" choices from this point forward you will resolve this situation, but there is little chance of the marriage surviving the process.

Tread your own path.

Good grief. He sounds like my father - who really did grow up without a family, without anybody to love him and is a totally disconnected person. Doesn't know how to talk to other people, doesn't know how to love, doesn't know how to connect to children, wife ... if HE gets uncomfortable he starts singing nursery rhymes or wartime ditties until the pressure becomes so big that he explodes and starts to bellow. NO FARKING WAY of getting him to engage or have an adult conversation, never had a friend in his life.

It's sad that there are people like that. And if they don't go and do something about it, there's absolutely nothing we can do to budge them. I deliver a hot meal a day, I do his finances because he's by now too addled to make rational decisions about it, and that's it. I don't even stay around for a friendly word any more, because it's like ******* into the wind.

{big, heavy sigh}

I just got another reminder myself .... last night when I tried to give my wife a cuddle before bed my fingernails were too long and too sharp. Well... I know damn well if it weren't my fingernails, my hair would be to hairy, my beard too beardy or my nose too nosy (I had made sure not to let my fingernails near her hypersensitive self). This morning I reached over to pick something out of her hair and she shrank back - like a woman who's been beaten or gang-raped or something. I've never raised my hand to her, nor has anyone else in over 30 years as far as I am aware.
Won't change ..... {wipes tear from eye}. Oh, sometimes these days she relaxes enough to enjoy it, but that underlying thing, that's not going to go away.

Well, at least my ex "thought about buying me a card". . . ! Sorry - black humour!

Dear girl, you have your answer - NOT the one you were hoping for, but nevertheless, your answer. Get your ducks in a row and LEAVE. I doubt your husband, like my Ex, is capable of the relationships you and I (and everyone else here on ILIASM) need. It is not their fault, but it does not mean we have to accept it.

Don't be surprised if the news that you WILL be leaving for good this time results in a flurry of "action" - but take no notice of it. It will not be of the lasting kind.

I'm so sorry it has come to this - BUT!! Remember there is a whole wonderful world out there for you! You will find peace and happiness (once the pain subsides) and that alone is worth all the sufferng this searation will involve. {{{Hugs}}}

Just walk away. It's the only thing you can do at this point. Re-build your life without him and eventually you'll find someone better suited for you and you don't have to spend the rest of your life in a loveless marriage.
I don't tell people to leave lightly. I felt such a spark of happiness when you said he had heard you. But he's had days and done nothing. In my opinion if he REALLY gave a damn he would have grabbed your hands, begged for forgiveness, kissed you and talked specifics on changing. He did none of it. You're so much better off moving on sooner rather than later. You deserve a real relationship.

Best of luck, when mine FINALLY heard me, it was too late. I hope you still have IT left inside for him. Seems lots of them wait too long.....

"For the first time in 25 years..." wow, just wow. That seems a long dry spell. Congratulations, and I wish you luck.

AND:
what mvcmvc and enna said - they tell it as it is, you need to see if he's thought about it.
You need to check if he is planning/willing to deal with what he heard.
By the same token: people need time to reassess their own behaviour, think about how it affects others - it's not easy to break out of a well-worn rut, and don't I know that first hand {laughs}.

why do we put up with all this crap from our partners ? coz they've made us feel like crap, and worthless, and that we have nothing to offer anyone else and what a good job of it they do. stuck in a marriage for 34 years,kids grown up and left home, i thought things would change, but no same old crap. just had a **** xmas, no card, no presents, no kind words, infact didnt speak to me for 10 days. why i do it i dont know.

So hope you are right and your relationship improves.

Hate to say.......It's ALL BULLSHIT!!! Just get a DIVORCE!!!!!!!!!!! You will be MUCH happier in the end!!!!!!!!!

-----"For the first time in 25 yrs my husband listened to me."

Sad. Very sad.

Now, after 48-72 hours follow up with a simple question such as "Do you have any input, suggestions, etc. as to what we discussed 2 or 3 days ago? I would love to hear your thoughts on this subject and on what I said"

Don't be surprised if he says this - "I have not given what you said a second thought'.

Then what will you do?

Now, after a day (assuming he is he sort that might need to ruminate over such things!), ask him for his response to your Talk. And then DON'T SAY A WORD. If anything will get him to talk (if he is like most people), absolute silence after your question should do the trick. Most people abhor a "conversational vacuum" and will fill the void by talking. DON'T TALK, even though it will likely get unbearable for you - and don't leave the room or even look away.

Maybe you will get more than a crumb!

Let us know.

Being heard is *great.* What a relief! But being heard, and stopping there, is a crumb in and of itself. You mention nothing about a conversation here. Does he acknowledge your pain? Was he so moved as to apologize? When you are hurting, why should he not feel impelled by human decency, if nothing else, to engage with you in some concrete way immediately, as opposed to waiting until after a day at work? Yes, these talks we have are really for our own benefit, as many have already stated.

Your post struck a chord. In my first messed up quarter century, I would wonder what was wrong with a person if s/he seemed to want to talk to me. Ewww, why would I ever want to be with someone who was such a loser as to express an interest? Then my H. came along, apparently a wonderful and nice person, who HEARD me and what I had to say! Such a vast improvement in my own perception of self worth. Too bad for H. that my self-worth now requires interaction.

Don't take a crumb, DEMAND the whole damn piece. If not given, then leave, or find yourself forever trapped to feel numb, lonely, sad, depressed, etc. Not trying to sound harsh, but you know you deserve better and more, so ask for it!! If it's met half heartedly or with a blunt no, then you know what you must do. Hang in there!!

From an outsiders' point of view, this is actually really, really sad... that you take this "crumb" as rosedl has described as some sort of connection. I wish you well and hope things improve for you, but having been close to your shoes, this is like the first inch of Mount Everest...

"The Talk" is really for YOUR benefit, and as such it is a good thing that you have done it.

In and of itself it rarely changes a thing - however, it provides the recipient of it with information which the recipient may choose to take on board, or not. It provides the recipient with an opportunity to challenge their thinking, or not. It provides the recipient with a chance to modify their behaviour or not.

Your version of "The Talk" has provided him with opportunity. He will pick it up and run with it, or he will **** it up against the wall.

Your version of "The Talk" has given you the initiative and momentum in the dynamic (well done) but NOW, you have to keep it. Your foot has to stay firmly on the gas.

Tread your own path.

I can reconize myself in your story, I truly hope it will stay this way between the two of you, that it will get better and better(:

It feels good to be heard. Even when they don't hear us just knowing that we spoke our truth can be rewarding. Did you add that one day the puppy might become a big ferocious dog so get with it buddy lol. ha ha

The great value of "The Talk" lies in it being a line in the sand. After this, your husband can never say he "didn't know" you were unhappy; "didn't realise you wanted a sexual and intimate reationship", or any of the other cop outs that occur with sexless spouses.

Time to effectively "hold his feet to the fire". If within three days you see no notable changes (the kiss was a good start!!) then ASK him what he plans to do. Make sure he realises you are NOT going to drop the subject.

Every best wish for thinhs to get better! {{{hugs{}}}

He will not change. Sorry, might as well cut to the chase.

Everything you wrote in this story screams that you are married to someone who most likely has narcissistic personality disorder.



EP Link

That is a good analogy and it was a great way to address your frustration!
Here is a website that someone had suggested to me recently here on EP. I haven't taken much time to listen to the programs, but it may be of benefit to you: http://rejoiceministries.org/

He might have listened....actions will show if he heard or has the desire to change.

Refusers become attentive when they sense the desperation of our situation might actually propel us to take action for real change. Usually, the are afraid of losing their status quo and comfort. In my experience, actions taken this place don't last or maintain. If the refuser doesn't have a desire to change for their own benefit and needs, it will be action out of complicity and fear.

My ex listened. He went to therapy. He cried. He told me he love me. He would have stayed had I not left (at least for awhile more). But for all of this, he did not desire sex with me, and outside of one empty lonely try in our disastrous six month reconciliation, it never happened again,

All the words....all the good intent meant nothing. We were never going to have an intimate life. I could stay and he would be an affectionate friend. But, I would never ever have a sex life as he wanted celibate monogamy

I had no where to go but out.

You sound grateful and relieved that he gave you a crumb of his attention. And, this is where they take their power. We get nothing for so long, and we are so afraid to lose the marriage that they can ration out tiny, tiny bits and we take it like a dog starving for a bone. I say this not to hurt you but because it is where you lose your power.

Forget about pleas, reasoning, rationalizing. It doesn't work and it gives your power to the refuser and how they choose to dole out their 'affections'. Instead of going to him and hoping beyond hope that somehow some miracle change will happen after decades of marriage, make it about YOU and what you want and your own boundaries.

It is the key to freedom from this life of denial and servitude. Tell him what you need, what you expect, and tell him SPECIFICALLY what needs to happen in a given time frame. And, if it doesn't happen, act from there. Once you take the power for yourself, and determine to act for your own happiness and needs whatever they choose to do, you will be free.