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Confused? Affair - Refused Vs Refuser

I am a little confused about when a member of ILIASM, a refused person has an affair or "outsources" for intimacy I see comments from fellow members like:

I am so Happy for You
You deserve this
Way to go
Glad you're finally getting some
Congrats
Good for you
Your refusing wife/husband deserved it

It's a cheering section, an overwhelming response of support and kudos for cheating on their spouse.

Then when a ILIASM member has their spouse to cheat on them then comments are:

That's awful
I'm so sorry for you
You need to divorce that witch
I know it hurts but hang in there
You don't deserve this
I know it's so painful

It's an overwhelming response of sorrow, sympathy and support because they are the victim of a cheating spouse.

I understand a refused thought process here. They aren't givin it to ya so go get it somewhere else. It seems to me that people who have affairs seem to separate themselves and the act and justify it as if its only them involved and doesn't affect anyone else, except for the spouse which they usually have already written off in their mind. If that's the case then why not go the divorce path vs an affair. The affairies don't think or realize how deeply this act hurts and impacts families usually not just one, but 2 families. It seems to be the norm and almost glamorized in our society and here on this site. Refusers, most refusers I venture to say, have feelings and a heart. Sometimes they are not mean, terrible people they just need to get some help in one area or another. Most do not want to live the way they are living they would much rather be close, loving and in a great relationship. Maybe they don't know how. I'm sure some are cold and maybe calculating using sexual refusal as a weapon and a tool to hurt or manipulate their spouse. There are some I'm sure who are just plum mean and spiteful. Even the mean and spiteful in my humble opinion do not deserve to be lied to, cheated on, disrespected, humiliated, or deceived. It's more honorable and forthright if you take care of your business with your spouse and if you are to that point then leave the marriage. I would guess its just as hard and painful to go through an affair as it is to go ahead and separate or divorce, seems to me. Maybe even harder going the affair route especially if you get caught. Even if you didn't get caught you've still got to live with yourself. One is just morally, ethically, and religiously a more sound decision for everyone involved.

A refused spouse does not deserve to be rejected either. I know it is also humiliating, disrespectful and somewhat deceiving. There are different elements to an affair vs. rejection. There are many similar emotions, and there are a few more emotions involved with an affair. It's hard to explain until you've been on that side of the fence. It just so earth shaking for your spouse to be living a total separate life. Just the gut wrenching fact that someone you loved was so deceiving. Being intimate and sharing themselves and your family's lives with this stranger. This stranger knowing you, about you and your kids and you not even knowing they exist. Knowing they talked about you and your spouse has divulged all this private, personal information about you and your lives. It's very intrusive and you feel violated.

I also understand the thought process of being supportive to a refused person because they were not intimate with their spouse and that refusing spouse went outside the marriage to someone else. I am sure that is devastating also.

I wonder if some of you have suffered both refusal and an affair your spouse was involved in. I would like to know what your feelings are. Are they the same in comparison or is one worse? I realize most of the refused have gone a long time sometimes years without loving intimacy from their partner. I know what affect this can have on someone. It's very mentally and emotionally draining. It has to be exhausting.

Then when an affair is involved it is also mentally, physically and emotionally draining. It's all compacted into usually a short period especially when they've been caught. So it's like compounded 100x over and its a 365 days a year you live in anguish just trying to heal and get your life back on track. There is no in between or down time or happy good times. It's been 3 yrs since this all started for me and my family and I can say its been hell the whole time. So much crap involved just trying to take one hour at a time, day by day.

I realize we are going to disagree here on this issue and I totally get that. I assume if I were on the refused end I would think similar to you. I would not think as some of you do that an affair is okay. It's just my religious beliefs, my upbringing as a pretty moral, ethical, truth tellin person. I could never fathom doing that to myself or my family. That's just me. I am really interested if anyone has been on both sides and the comparison of feelings and the emotions of each experience.

Just seemed really weird to hear comments that are total opposites regarding affairs the refused have vs affairs refusers have. There are always two sides to each story and sometimes if you knew the whole story you might understand things in a whole different light. Both sides have their faults and flaws and both sides have to see and admit their own shortcomings. This is simply my opinion and feelings on this issue. I'm sure I'm wrong in some aspects I'm trying to learn and get a better understand.
RRRW RRRW 46-50, F 58 Responses Jan 25, 2013

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RRRW, I'm sorry that you are going through such a difficult time, must be awful for you.
I have respect for couple who try to work on their marriage after an affair, myself I dont think I can do it, so an affair is a deal breaker for me.

I used to be like you and think 'how could someone have an affair and destroy the lives of their family'. Until it almost happened to me!

At that time, I lost so much weight, constantly fighting over our sexlessness and another crisis,
and three men were propositioning affairs to me. The constant rejection by my husband, I believe, has messed up with my head, I was not thinking correctly. I was very tempted (especially after my husband provoked me in a fight) but I never took it up. It could easily have
happened. We're okay now.

Myself, I believe some of the marriages here on EP are dysfunctional (codependent) from the word go.
Two people with issues, from each end of dysfunctional spectrum (one intimacy adverse, the other co-dependent/people pleaser) coming together, so the marriage is unhealthy and messed up from the word go.

I often wonder why we don't out them as sexless abusers in the divorce process. Most people don't hesitate to out the other as having had an affair, even during the marriage and if "trying to work on it". I think because the SM makes us feel horrible about ourselves whereas an affair seems more like "all their fault". The whole "cheating is never the answer" line we hear so often from the black and white, can't see any shades of gray (let alone 50) crowd.

ImtoSexy. Our marriage is not as traumatic or in drama now, but it takes a lot of heeling and opening up and forgiving to get through this, both of us. It is still day by day feelings still somewhat raw. I'm still trying to get my husband to forgive me so we can move on into the future and for him to trust me to take care of him. I will take care of him no doubt whatever it takes, if I fail again, I know I'm out. I'm not going to fail though I have so much more knowledge and a list of helpful suggestions lined up just in case I need help. I'll do anything it takes counseling, supplements, sex therapy whatever. I will not fail this man again. Right now I have desire and drive so its so much easier to show your love. Energy or not, tired or not, I can respond with a libido. I had nothing before.

The rejection of your husband has messed with your mind for sure. I know I messed up my husbands mind it wears on you and drags you down. It's hard for someone one with a healthy desire to understand why their partner doesn't want it, want them. You are not engaged in rational thinking in my opinion when going into an affair or considering one, or some are not let me say, I don't think my husband was rationally thinking at all I know him to well, so I get what you mean about that.

You were very strong to resist temptation and I'm so glad to hear you are doing okay now and I hope it continues to be more than okay for you. God Bless You and Your Marriage

Scottysdad, i'm not sure that the refuser is the one acting like the victim. When you read about how miserable the refused are, they sound more like the ones who hold that position.

RW I am glad to see you empathize with her so vulnerably. Thanks for that.

Scottysdad. I agree with your statement that rejection and refusal is part of the reason a marriage fails. Sometimes it's all that and sometimes it's not, but the refuser and the spouse that goes outside if the marriage have a hand in the demise of a marriage.

I am sure that many claim the role of victimhood and spread bad terrible rumors and shares details that should not be shared, but I do not feel the victim here and I have not shared or smeared his name in anyway. If I live him that would be stupid to do that and I love him.. Even if he decides to leave me I will never bash him and will always stand up for him. I don't believe in hurting anyone anymore that you can help, especially when you are fully aware of a situation. If you know better you can do better. I don't believe in hurting the kids and if their dad has been a wonderful loving father all of his life and good to his kids like mine has there is no way I could bad talk him. If you could ask anyone in my life that I have talked to about this they would tell you have have stuck by his side, never bad mouthed or talked down about him and mostly took up for him. Don't get me wrong, I shared my pain and anger and all other emotions with one very close friend who loves my husband like a brother and if I did say something she would usually take up for him. Everyone needs someone to talk to.

CWDMG. There are many shades a gray I agree it's not all black and white.

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Wow RRRW, you have so many responses ,I couldn't read them all, and so many of them are harsh.
I think you have written something important.
I have been on both sides of the story , with the same man.
20 years married and 26 years together. And my story is still being written.
My husband could have gone elsewhere , while i was lost , having kids, working , dealing with family illness , stress etc.
I could have done the same, in recent times , while he was lost for the same sort of reasons.
But we didn't .
I have always said, if you are not happy in a relationship, leave , before you start something else. My husband has always agreed.
Each case of a SM is different , how much , how often , and the only difference is , how much do you love your partner, no matter the lack of sex.
If you can still see your spouse through all the pain , and you know that they are still the person you love, then you don't give up. "There is no right cookie , just pick one , and take a bite ". No relationship is immune to these issues.
I have absolutely no religious beliefs , so this plays no part in my behaviour.
Because i have seen this from both sides , i understand very well, what emotions and reasons are behind the refuser.And i don't like this term, it's not that simple.
For me it's a case of , what am i prepared to live with, v's , what am i prepared to live with. To make it simple, i would rather the divorce, than the slim chance of a fractured marriage with a history of affairs.
You are not wrong.

I agree with what you are saying. I am saying this from the view point that too many think that there is a perfect partner.
I am saying that, you only know what you know , and you have to chose whether to make the best of it.
No one knows what they are getting into. We can only hope that it turns out to be all that we hoped for. I can only speak from my own frame of reference, like all of us here.
When i say that there is no right cookie , i don't mean that you can't spit it out.
I just mean that we all take a chance , hope for the best, hang in as long as we can, and hopefully, live a life that we are "mostly "happy with. Nothing is perfect. I am very sorry, if i upset you in anyway, this was not my intention.

No one here is asking for perfect. OMG, we are not asking for perfect. We may be asking (or some of us hopefully, demanding) not abusive, not disrespectful, not intimacy averse at this point.

We will never get PERFECT, and we do not have to settle for less.
Any SM is already in a lot of trouble, but secrets can make it worse.

RRRW in response to your answer, did it occur to you that maybe you started changing cause you felt you were losing your husband, maybe just maybe you felt him slip away a little more each day, and that is the only reason you acted on it, and stopped refusing him???
Also, you mentioned how angry and mad your husband was after "cheating",
then surely you can put it together that all this rage was out of guilt, and pain from hurting you and knowing he did wrong, right? following me so far?
So why would you come here, trying to hurt us, judge us, cheaters and non, don't you think we have enough pain and anger and guilt??????????????
Want do you want from us?

I do not know about the RRRW but what I want from this forum to stop cheering for people who cheat just because it reduces our guilt for a moment because we think that we may not be wrong as others are also doing it. However, affairs/chatting never bring the enduring love and care we all want from our marriage. It just masks it for a moment but in the long run, the pain and the hurt increases. And yes I am speaking from my own experience.

C12, first of all - the majority of us are not cheering the act of having an affair. We are cheering the act of doing something different, of making a step, any step towards putting themselves and their needs first. It usually is the first step towards divorce or some other progress in the person's life. I would estimate that not even 50% here are outsourcing. And of those quite a few are doing it openly, so also not cheating. If that leaves, say 70% of us who arent cheering each other on because we are trying to feel less guilt because others do it too... Then why do those people see that step in a positive light? They aren't outsourcing so have NO GUILT. Why don't you post a story about you so we can get to know you and your story. Otherwise you seem like a troll.

Change is spot on. The affair is not about the sex. It is often about someone, the refused party, finally putting his or her needs first, after being a doormat for a long time. That said, many of us, myself included, find the outsourcing pleasure to be short-lived, but it often does give one the initial confidence to do other important things to take better care of ourselves.

Change, there is nothing much to our story. Me and my husband are having intimacy issues for couple of years. When i couldn't take it any more, One day we just talked about it and finally decided to go for therapy. We are both committed to our relationship and have not cheated with each other. This is the only reason that is keeping door open for renewed intimacy and hope for future. Any cheating/affair and the door is shut.
I do agree with you that a gridlock never fixes anything, so, it has to be broken. I do agree with the concept of movement but the change or movement can not be just anything. Change can be discussion, therapy, threatening to leave, open marriage and divorce. But all these takes courage. On the other hand, affairs do not need courage. It is just giving in to your urges. What annoys me is that why the majority of respondents in this blog see affairs as the easiest and convenient way forward and support that instead of guiding people to other means that I mentioned.

"On the other hand, affairs do not need courage. It is just giving in to your urges. What annoys me is that why the majority of respondents in this blog see affairs as the easiest and convenient way forward and support that instead of guiding people to other means that I mentioned."

That is what you choose to see. We caution each other of the dangers of outsourcing, of how it does not solve the problem within the marriage, of how it leads to more problems and it sometimes makes things worse over the long term. We also advise that those who are going to outsource MUST have an exit plan ready at a moment's notice. But when/if they do so, we also don't judge them.

"On the other hand, affairs do not need courage. It is just giving in to your urges."

Yes, truly you are an EXPERT, having neither had an affair nor a spouse who had an affair.

"What annoys me is that why the majority of respondents in this blog see affairs as the easiest and convenient way forward and support that"

Are you fcking BLIND???? Where the h*ll did you read that?ABSOLUTELY NOONE supports ONLY affairs on this forum, and NOONE -I mean NOONE- has said affairs were EASY OR CONVENIENT - NOONE.

I have been reading this forum for well over a year, hundreds or thousands of stories, and you are WAY off base. DELUSIONAL.

And affairs require a great deal of courage. It is not so simple as "ooh shiny object, I'm going to go get naked with that." There is grieving involved in realizing that your marriage is so far gone that you are considering stepping out. The idea that these people here are morally or ethically less than you is short-sighted and judgmental.

-----". What annoys me is that why the majority of respondents in this blog see affairs as the easiest and convenient way forward and support that instead of guiding people to other means that I mentioned."

This is a totally false assertion. I do not have hard statistics to back up what I am going to say, but I started reading stories here in Dec 2009 and have read over 90% of the stories posted on this forum and I would say that less than 5% just fire off a "just have an affair". Most urge therapy, talk, and the guts to face the situation head on in a realistic manner. The majority WARN people that affairs are only a temporary solution to a permanent problem and that an affair need to be carefully considered under risk management. Many support formation of a contingency plan in case it all goes to **** (because most who land here are on the last leg of marital dysfunction as this is a self selecting group and tends to attract those who have tried everything else - many have been in therapy for years as noted in stories - and are here as a last resort).

Your assertion has no credibility from the macroview.

Nope not what I want thanks for trying though

Oceansun. I really did not feel my husband slipping away at all. He always was laughing, cutting up, happy it seemed, no one thought he was miserable. Our daughter got engaged in Sept of 2009 and I really believe it set all of this in motion, understand I'm saying set it in motion not the reason for it but I think it was part of it. I think he saw the future and our girls getting older and leaving and he didn't want to be stuck in a somewhat SM. He was getting ready to retire or he could anytime and our other daughter was a senior in high school. All this came flooding in on him and he had just gotten a supervisors position a couple of years before where he went up to the main office and the, Sorry can't help it I know this is gonna get me in trouble, Snake in the Grass, lay waiting to strike. She had been flirting with him the whole time from day one trying to lay into him with her venomous bite. I know this will offend and I'm sorry, this woman is a repeat, repeat, repeat offender. She knew what she was doing she admitted to me she went after him and that he would have never started this. She had childhood issues lost her dad early in life and I thinks she was and does act out because of that. I told her she needed help and she never denied it. Don't get me wrong my husband kept going by the snake until he got bit. He's just as guilty as her and more so in my view. I know, I have to work on my feelings about her I know God expects me to forgive her and I will get there someday, just not now.

Got off track, I didn't know anything until the blow up night. I did think I could loose him and I loved him deeply and yes I did act off of the blow up. Don't get me wrong I knew he wanted more from me I did not know the impact it had on him though. I am not asking you to understand, but this is the way it was.

I do realize where his anger stemmed from and what it was all about. I didn't come here to hurt anyone I had no intentions of hurting you or anyone else I would have never posted this if I had know and that is the truth. Last night I said and thought I would delete this today. I had written an apology and wanted to make sure everyone that I hurt or offended to see. Once I got back on here I saw all of the conversations and discuss being had and thought how could this be so bad surely each one of can get something from all of this. I know I have. I didn't mean to do this at anyone expense though. I am not condemning anyone for their choices. I don't walk in your shoes and I am really a kind non judgment person, but I messed up big time here for some of you. Please accept my sincere apology.

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You have no idea of the incredible pain that we feel by being refused for so long by someone who claims to love us. I normally try to be polite to people especially those I disagree with but after twelve years of "I love you but not tonight"... **** YOU just **** YOU!

LOL, I just said to my H, "look at least give me the decency, as the mother of your 2 children, just admit it that's it's over, don't keep me hanging on, please just call it what it is" and he said "if that's what you want".
Yup he loves me so much and is running out of ways to show it.
So yes **** YOU

Ocean, I am sorry. :-(

cut & pasted here, so it doesn't get lost in the volley of responses below, because i think this is important:

RRRW: to put it bluntly, you think that having an affair is somehow *more wrong* than repeatedly refusing your spouse the love and affection they deserve and need to feed not only their souls but also the marriage itself.

you, and others like you, though you very well do display love for the very spouse you have so painfully abused for YEARS, somehow hold yourselves and the emotional and psychological abuse of withholding love affection and intimacy as morally superior, to the actions of a spouse that has BEEN emotionally/psychologically abused for YEARS taking some affection where they find it.

i tell you neither action is right. BOTH are wrong. NEITHER is superior or inferior.

what we, here, the "refused" are trying to convey to you, is that in MOST cases the affair is the RESULT of the abuse heaped on us by our spouses. and in MOST cases, is the first step out the door to divorce.

frankly, i have been on this board for many months and haven't seen a single "refused" like myself cheerfully say "y'know what i think i'll just go cheat it sounds like fun."

most of the posters are in mental anguish as they discuss, and in fact do feel guilt and pain.

most refusing spouses show no remorse.

there is a contrast here.

the sanctimonious, patting each other on the back attitude of all you who've chimed in condemning the folks who post regularly and have endured many years of such emotional & psychological abuse as many could never endure sickens me.

i think y'all should start your own group--and stay out of ILIASM unless and until you have something *constructive* to add.

oh and just in case you're wondering, dear readers, my h is one of the mean spirited punishing PA refusers.

and no, though extremely tempted, i haven't had an affair. though i make no judgment on those who have.

until you've lived our hell for years and decades, you have NO CLUE the pain involved.

Smithy8015 I agree with what you say on both above comments. I am so sorry that you have been in an awful situation with a mean spirited refuser. I am sincere in saying this and you are right I don't know and haven't suffered like many of you have.

We are all human and make mistakes. Guilt comes from knowing the fact that what I did was wrong. Our actions , that produces guilt, cannot simply be justified just because we were hurt or angered or were in pain for long time. There are two Ways to deal with our guilt. The first method is remorse and making amend that RRRW is following and I really commend her for that. The second method is to continue to justify our wrong doing by continue to come up with absurd logic/arguments/ throwing anger and hurt at others. I am pained to see that most of the folks in this forum continue to take the second method and hope that this will reduce their pain or guilt knowing wholeheartedly that it never happens. Just because few more people can join this forum and support our actions does not fix the main issue of guilt knowing that I did something wrong, no matter whatever the underlying reason was.

raveu, did you READ what i wrote?!?

apparently not. you just decided to spout more of your condemnatory stuff at folks who *already* feel guilt & incredible inhuman amounts of pain.

good on ya that you can be so judgmental.

Well said...and thanks

C12 - the other option is to choose not to feel guilty about it. Do not assume that others feel guilt about the same things you do.

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I think we should all learn from RRRW's personal experience:

AFFAIRS SAVE SEXLESS MARRIAGES!!!!

Without RRRW's spouse having an affair, she may never have realized what he was missing! No matter how much he may have told her to her face that he wanted her as a sexual partner (plus they were MARRIED), she didn't understand until he HAD SEX WITH A PERSON HE WAS NOT MARRIED TO WHILE HE WAS MARRIED TO HER!!!

So everyone - learn that lesson now - the REAL lesson behind RRRW's story - the reason our marriages failed was because WE DIDN'T RUN OUT AND HAVE AFFAIRS WHEN THE SEX DWINDLED TO TWICE A MONTH!

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RRRW's situation is like that person who goes to Peggy's Cove lighthouse in Nova Scotia, pushes past the ropes, climbs the metal barriers, and stands on the rocks next to the "DO NOT STAND ON THE ROCKS" sign, and when they have to be rescued because the ocean waves wash them out to sea, return to the sea shore to yell abuse at the ocean for being itself.

She has no idea how deranged she sounds, how disrespectful she's been or is being to the natural pull of tides and time, or where she really went wrong. She doesn't allow others to watch the tides peacefully at the barrier. She insists on thrusting pamphlets in their faces with misinformation about how dangerous the ocean really is and hurling abusive moralistic filth at anyone in earshot.

Zsu, last year I was in Hawaii on a remote area with active volcanoes. The signs around all said "area closed - keep away" and a second sign underneath that said "unstable cliffs may collapse - frequent high winds & waves".

My friend and I had met this young (way young) honeymooning couple a few times on the trip. We came to one of those signs and what do we see... but they have climbed out to the very edge of these cliffs with the huge waves and the high winds to take photographs. so instead we photographed them, just in case they did not return and their relatives wanted to know what happened. We also captured a picture of one of the warning signs in the foreground because they seemed like the types that would sue the government for not putting up enough warnings or - god forbid - hand rails around the volcanic cliffs. It's the same thing...

refuser says "area closed - keep away" (no sex) - the refused responds "unstable cliffs (the dysfunctional marriage) may collapse - frequent high winds & waves (you may not see it coming)". And who is to blame if the refuser keeps climbing out there on the cliffs?

I love Hawaii.

<p>These are only a few observations, some humble views, I wouldn't wish to try to imput them to anybody. I met more than a few marriages without sex, some goes for decades, unchanged. Most of the times one of them is cheating and the other pushes self to forgive, for the sake of the kids. A wonderful person cheerful sweet and kind, turned to a glass of wine as a partner for smiles. The house become a mess, hardly goes out, and the worst, quit to care for self. Painful. But there are other couples, when the forgiving one turned to nature, art or sport or volunteer work. I believe there is nothing to loose on that, the person is only to grow conscious of self and find own happiness without hurting anyone. The ones who cheat on a marriage don't care for others feelings, indeed. For a moment of pleasure given to one they are hurting others. Divorce could also hurt. One of my friends succeded after numerous suicidal attempts... Even more painful. It is almost impossible to give a good advice, people are different and they should try to find own answer. Case by case. I only hope they can find support from the people around. As for me, I should not support a cheater even if I could envy those moments of pleasure. But I should not judge either. Thank you for your insightful write, we can learn a lot from it.</p>

"But, then again, we are all one" if only for those words I could find the most beautiful wisdom that many of us may wish to be able to touch one day.Thank you!

Scottysdad. I like

How about instead of us asking for divorce before cheating,
you ask for it first instead of putting us through hell?
Since you're the one who pulled the bait and switch in the first place.
Again same cheating isn't always the answer but neither is divorce.

Your logic is like a thief saying that he/she would not be hold responsible for the burglary because they will not become thief if the society had provided them enough. This is no argument and will stand in any court of law or morality. You are free to separate/divorce and find your happiness somewhere else.

As you are free to out source your needs, to speak your mind, have an opinion and free to **** off as well

@C12 how moral is the refusing spouse in a marriage? I'm talking about morality as in right and wrong behaviours to other human beings. Not the 10 deadly sins religious version.

C12, your logic is like saying that you will not be held responsible if you withhold food and water from your family and refuse to take care of their basic needs and refuse to let them go elsewhere to get those needs met. At some point they will have to take care of their needs, since you chose not to... if you do not love your spouse (and sexual anorexia that you force upon them is definitely unloving), why not divorce them before you torture them? should they leave you??? HELL YEAH. They should. But maybe they believe in love and the vows they made and their promise to only have you be the one that takes care of those needs. You know... the ones you now REFUSE to let them meet - with you or elsewhere.

"Your logic is like a thief saying that he/she would not be hold responsible for the burglary because they will not become thief if the society had provided them enough. This is no argument and will stand in any court of law or morality. "

I don't know about YOUR morality, but in MY country, h*ll YES you can say society had not provided, and get some rehabilitation or second chances rather than being thrown with hardened criminals for minor offences like stealing! WTF country do you live in that won't have MERCY for those who have been deprived? I bet you'd cut off the hands of those who steal a loaf of bread to feed their starving children rather than show MERCY.

So you are saying to your spouse "honey I love you enough not to divorce but cheat" . Did everyone ask their spouse that before going for outsourcing. I am not preaching anyone to stay in SM because we said "till death do us apart" but I do not believe the solution is to have an affair. Affairs only delay the problem but makes it even worse. Before the affair Probably only the refuser had the guilt and the refused was in pain and anger. after the affair, now both refuser and refused are living with anger, rage and guilt. How is making the problem worse can be a solution to anything.
No I have never supported the refuser for their behavior specially if it is intentional and without any medical reasons.

Stay, Immorality from others does not justify us leaving generally universal accepted morality and values.

I do live in the most free country of the world "US" and no I am not a religious bigot. I am only spiritual. I do believe in rehabilitation and second chance but that is called "divorce and remarriage". Affairs are not rehabilitation. It is more like a second immoral act to justify refusers first immoral act

@c12. This is where we agree to disagree. My value system is based on raising children with a mother and father in a comfortable home in a nice neighbourhood. That would be very difficult if we split. Yes I'm outsourcing but only after a decade of very infrequent vanilla sex.

"So you are saying to your spouse "honey I love you enough not to divorce but cheat" . Did everyone ask their spouse that before going for outsourcing. "

Plenty have. DanteBurning2, mvcmvc are two that come to mind... apocrypha in their own way did something similar if not more extreme. And no, it's not "I love you enough to... anything." It's "we have kids, you're sick and I won't leave you while you're sick, if I leave (s)he can't work and I promised to care for them, I am disabled and stuck etc". At that point the marriage is so broken down it is no longer about love. But many marriages in the world are not about love.

And by "not about love" I mean not about the marital kind of love and intimacy that should be in marriage. There are plenty of marriages here - MaryRyan as a perfect example - where she truly, truly loves her husband in that "he is my companion and my friend way" and is nurturing him through illness. She won't leave because of it, but the marriage was sexless for decades before the illness. It's a different kind of love and that's okay. It's like how I wouldn't leave a friend in need. I might not marry them but for many of us at that point we already have.

-----" "honey I love you enough not to divorce but cheat" . Did everyone ask their spouse that before going for outsourcing."

I did. I have been in a parallel sexual relationship for 3 years now (I have been married for almost 7 years now the marriage is strictly platonic). My husband is complict in the deal. I notified him BEFORE I got back with my old lover that I would no longer live without intimacy. That gave him the option of either 1. Stepping up and getting renengaged with me or 2. Accepting, without complain the paradigm shift whereas I released both of us fron the bonds of sexual exclusivity or 3. Divorce me. I travel for weeks at a time with my lover while my husband stays at home and cares for our home and pets. We are roommates and responsible financial partners who get along well. I am living this scenario. It can work. It is rare but it can work.

I only owe ONE person on this earth an explanation about my sexual behavior - that would be my spouse. I have discharged my responsibilies as a spouse and he is satisfied with the current arrangement. I have no concern about what anyone else outside my spouse and I feel about our arrangement. I live as I see fit.

As you should, mvc. You no longer owe him any explanation either. He forfeited those rights when he accepted the deal.

Change - yes you are correct. I discharged my responsibilities by the notification - no details are ever discusses. I sleep well at night with no guilt.

Stays and cheat. Refusing behavior is immoral it is wrong it is hurtful and shameful.

mvcmvc,
I do not call it cheating if your H is aware off it and has agreed to it. However, what about the spouse/family of your lover? Is he single? Is his family ok with your arraingements.

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"The husband must fulfill his (sexual) duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Stop depriving one another (of sex)." 1 Corinthians 7:3-5

are you mocking me?

Oceans in your are right I read that passage with so much more understand and conviction and do take it very seriously. I have a lot a guilt over the past and they way I treated my husband. I know I was wrong and have admitted that to the 2 most important ones that count, God and my husband. I've admitted to my husband that I failed him as a wife, a Christian wife. God knows the truth and how I was and how he was. I have prayed to God that you know me, my heart and you know my husbands heart and to please put the blame on my shoulders squarely were it belongs. I truly know my sins and how I failed. Believe me I know.

You don't have to explain to me, tell me you are making it right.
And remember not to judge others, not when you are with out sin.
Your comments, or rather "questions are very judgmental, and these people have hurt enough, YOU TRUST ME.
So you want to be open minded and learn why we respond in certain ways or why we cheer each other on, then read and you'll see why.
Don't talk, read!

I do agree with this. however, i know although that all of you hate me for saying the truth in other matters.

That probably means "no wanking". Brrr.

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"Till death do us part"
ILIASM people you are all doing it wrong, cheating is not the answer,
we are suppose to kill our spouses instead.
Thank you for showing us the light.

LOL I'll share with you my recipe for cookies LOL
How are you? I read some where that you found a lover,
wanted to "congratulate you" btw.
LMAO
I'd also like to say to the OP: God doesn't like divorce.
but he doesn't like suicide either,
and I am religious and while I may not cheat on my H,
I have had those thoughts, so.....
**** you again.

ROTFLMAO!

OS, you have a great sense of humour ;)

Why finally divorce? We thought you were happy just having affairs.

C12 said "Why finally divorce? We thought you were happy just having affairs."

And see, this is how I know you are just a troll. Because you are simply MAKING **** UP at this point. No one here is ever "happy just having affairs". Ever. What we keep saying but you keep refusing to hear is that many times the affair is the springboard to some change in their way of viewing things that lets them leave the marriage.

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I chose not to cheat in that situation and wouldn't, the move is to demand or file for divorce, making it clear you're going ot get some legit forever sex out of this no band aids on a bullet hole, cut the thing clean off. Doing this forces them out of this never never land and lands the consquences of their refusal right into their laps then if there's something else there and they will work on it with you, you have something, otherwise it's like a hostage situation.

Absolutely. If we are hurt, does not mena that our hurt will become less by hurting others by getting in affairs. Where is the end of it. Someday, Newt Gingritch can say that he cheated on his sic wife because he was not getting it and that will make it justify.

I love how you just opened an account cause:
A you are a coward,
B you are an idiot
or C both of the above
go troll another site, I'm done with you.

You're a happy person aren't you!

I am a ray of sunshine just ask around.

Being married to someone who wont have sex with you is stupid. Either you fix this or leave, there's really only two options, sure you could stay and cheat but that's just pointless.

I don't know exact situations, could you be so trapped there was no other choice, sure I guess, I'm just saying that instead of letting a dead cat sit on the floor people should go about tossing it out burying it and or get it to spend one of it's nine lives and revive itself.

Open marriages could be an option if both people agree but many times the person denying the sex simply wants the cheating to happen to lessen their guilt at wanting out, it's a move to control.

So you have to face it head on and figure it out and you have to be willing to leave to have any hope of getting past it other than divorce.

Who are you talking to?

raves. I like what you said above about choosing not to cheat and putting it back in their laps, or our laps. I agree with you. If somethings there and there is still love then you'll both fight to make it work. My husband wishes he had put his foot down a long time ago and so do I. I literally hate this is what it took to wake me up and that he had to go to such lengths to get my attention. For this I am forever sorry and ashamed.

So had had he never cheated, you wouldn't have understood?
So how many times has he implored or your understanding?
I think him cheating was the best thing he did, I'm sorry, but if you two can survive this, you are truly Blessed.

Oceansun. In my very first story and many other comments throughout I have said that it did not take an affair. I know some of you won't believe that. When this started in Dec of 2009 my husband just blew up one night and let me have it no holes barred. (He blew up because he had acted on the affair by now- I didn't know it though) I started scrambling for help I didn't want to loose my husband I didn't know he had started an affair. I did not know there was another woman involved until March of 2010. Stupid me never dreamed it, I trusted him totally. In Late Dec. He told me later after all of this came out that he tried to stop but couldn't. I think they tried many times to quit. I have heard it can be very addictive I'm sure it is and i know why. Here's the thing from Dec on we did it almost every night and some mornings this was before I knew there was another woman. This threw a whole different spin on things for him. He he was having an affair and he treated me really bad trying to make me go away I guess, but instead I finally had turned a corner and was changing. It made it worse because he was thinking you waited til now to do this after I've started this affair. He was freaked out and confused by my actions. Angry at me to I'm sure. So here it is he's waited all his life for this "change" and it finally happens and he was in a mess. You all will appreciate this, he had sex those six months more than a years worth I'm sure. We were doing it in the morning, he had her at lunch and then me at night. He was getting his 3 a day many, many days. Even after I found out about her I just kept on loving him and showing him by my actions. This whole time 3 yrs I've never denied him once yet and I don't plan to. I'll do whatever it takes. I wish I had turned the corner years ago I wish he had communicated it in a way it got my attention years ago. Not blaming him at all it was my fault for not recognizing it. He blames himself to for not blowing up on me years ago. Sad I know.

I have said the very same thing you have. If this affair was what it took to make me pay attention and make my husband happy the rest of his life and be the wife I should be, then that is what it took. It may just have saved our marriage I hope it did. I wish it didn't take all of this of course I wish I had been the way God intended me to be. I also think that I would have changed all on my own, but I would not have been so impacted like I was after finding out about the affair. I would not have realized how bad I hurt him and how I made him feel. I know it's hard to even think this, but I believe I have as much,if not more, guilt over all of this than my husband.

I have been on this site for 30 days now and have read every single post since June 2012. Just responding under different account. I know truth always hurts specially if people do not want to accept it or understand it.

The issue here RRRW is that your husband did not communicate with you. If you have read extensively here you will find many references to "The Talk". Old timers here encourage communication. We do not believe any spouse - refused or refuser is a mind reader. We encourage discussing the issue and even offer advice and possible ways of structuring such conversations. We advise ruling out medical reasons and suggest counseling - whether its secular or faith based. Any truly open minded person who ventures here will garner this within ten to fifteen stories.

I have cheated and I think my wife cheated on me, in both cases it did have the effect of helping our marriage, but only because it so tramatized the other person it shocked them into action.

A more mature approach is simply to say that I'm not going to cheat on you but this is not working for me either, we need to fix this or we need a divorce.

Divorce is the last option, if you take it off the table though many times people will just snuggle into suckage and sit there.

Cheating is like a false relief valve, to takes energy outside the marriage and allows things to remain status quo of suckage until found out then many times it'll be the thing that motivates people to get their *** in gear and do something different but it's an extremely painful way of accomplishing something two mature adults should be able to do on their own.

Cheating primarily and always cheats the cheater themselves, it's more harmful to them actually and that's why in my opinion it's a bad idea, especially as a concious decision.

It's a cop out.

The truth is many times still buried after all this, the damage my affair did is still ping ponging through my marriage even ten years later.

My wife did the same thing, she was a bunny for a while but you have to be careful that's not sustainable.

She did it for years then things whipsawed the other way and I quit caring and then things imploded on the rocks and she's the one having the affair.

There's only one real way out of this mess, you have to dig down deep and find yourself and only by doing that can you truly give yourself to a relationship, and it takes TWO people doing this to make it work.

Everyone's relationship is different but be very VERY careful of thinking you've fixed something, in many cases nothing is really fixed it's just a switch from who's taking the abuse.

You better be sure you're really ok with what you're doing on a deep and permanent level, if you aren't then you'll tire out and stop.

The pain of losing someone can be incredible motivation but that's not a lifelong thing, it'll peter out and when it does you'll be left with the same unresolved issues and your energy level will be nil to fix it.

The more I read on here and other places the more messes I see and the only true solution for it that I see is comming to a place where you know yourself and can love from that place.

Don't ever lie to yourself about this, if you do, you're toast and so is your marriage.

It's a diagnostic approach, I agree, it's like thinking you fixed a car because now it starts and runs, nevermind that you forgot to check the transmission and it's due to fail in about 100 miles. A relationship is a nearly impossibly complex thing, many times human thinking is to believe that it's a much simpler fix than it really is.

It's so complicated in fact they are impossible to fake and that's why so many of them go south, someone is faking something.

The hard part is the realization at the end of the day even if you do everything you feel you need to do, you can't make your partner do this and you can't change them only they can and they may not even want to.

Your best hope many times is a third party to at least point out things in an impartial way, cause one partner could say you do this and it drives me crazy about a bagillion times and someone else can say it once and they'll go, oh I didn't realize I did that, I'll work on that, it'd be funny if it wasn't so exaperating.

Oseansun,
How can you say this to RRRW "I think him cheating was the best thing he did".

It's like saying that the best thing happened to you was that your refuser refused you for this long as now you have found your way out of it and are much happier. How do you know that you are happeir now and would have been less happy if your refuser would not have refused.

When I first got here I posted about how sad I was that my refuser refusing kept us from having children of our own. No sex, no babies.

One of my now-friends-I've-met-in-person here said to me "That was the best thing your H ever did for you. He knew he didn't love you the way you deserved to be loved so he didn't have a baby with you and stuck you with him forever." And I said to him "Oh my Lord - you are right! What an amazing paradigm shift!"

Really, I did. It was huge. Big change requires big thinking. Some people here are trying to force things back to the way they want them to be instead of thinking outside the box.

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RRRW,
I totally agree with you that the people should divorce before they sleep with others. Anyone who is posting against is just trying to find any for of BS to justify their actions. There are 20% people in the world who live in SM but not all of them go and have affairs. Looks like all those people came on this site and started to justify themselves. Whenever i read a story of people trying to make it work, everyone just jumps agaist it. This is the only group i know where people shout for and promote for cheating/affairs/divorce instead of working on the problem. Few days agao someone asked a question that if affairs are ok because you are not getting from your wife/husband then was John Edwards's actions also justified. Just one final questions to everyone, if they are so proud of what they are doing and promoting here then why not come up in the open (instead of showing AN EP USER) and say that in public. That shows the moral bankrupcy of their behavior.actions.

Oh shut the **** up you too.

not you Esjay. the other chump.

Truth hurts. Doesn't it?
You can't have your cale and eat it too. Stay faithful in marriage or take divorce and do wahtever you want to do. Thank god you people did not write the Bible.

Cake

My wife and I worked out a creative solution to her not wanting to have sex with me. What's immoral about that?

As per you guys, we should change the law and make people marry as many as they can so each of them will provide you one things First one House, second one cars, third one emotional intimacy and fourth one sex. Way to go to meet all your demands.

Gosh you're a ******* moron.

Many people here don't cheat. A few do. Like the regular world too.

I don't agree with calling it cheating Change.

-----"we should change the law and make people marry as many as they can". People CAN marry as many people as they wish - they just cannot do it at the same time. It is called serial marriage.

Maybe we SHOULD write the Bible. I'll even throw in some professional copyediting for free!

"Thou shalt not abuse they spouse"
"Thou shalt not ignore they spouse's entreaties for relief from suffering and pain"
"Thou shalt be honest and forthright with reasons for changing the sexuality of the marriage; thou shalt not make unilateral sexual decisions without the input of thy spouse"
"Thou shalt not blame thy spouse for thine's own failings in the bedroom department"...

Anyone else want to play?

Ocean, you're right. It's not cheating. I mispoke, trying to use "their" terminology. We've been cheated and sometimes we just need to get some of our own identity back. Thanks for catching that.

You're good please keep going, but copy and paste this up there.

You really only have two good options, stay or leave. It's the same two options you have at all times.

C12 said " Just one final questions to everyone, if they are so proud of what they are doing and promoting here then why not come up in the open (instead of showing AN EP USER) and say that in public."

Talk about hypocrisy... You created a new account to talk about this and are unwilling to even post these comments on an online anonymous site with your real, first anonymous user name but you want us to think you stand proud and stand tall in your beliefs.

So C12 if you are so proud of what you are doing and promoting here then why not come up in the open (instead of showing Cheaters12) and say that in public under your real first psuedonym?

As for that hypocrisy... it really does take one to know one, doesn't it C12?

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From one troll to another,
I wish to say this to your spouse:
I am so Happy for You
You deserve this
Way to go
Glad you're finally getting some
Congrats
Good for you
Your refusing wife/husband deserved it

so sorry.

The marriage deserves either a shot or a quick death, the cheating thing is stupid and so is anyone advocating it.

Open marriages being the exception, if the people want to do that fine but you can't really close that down easily after you toss the doors open.

My wife never cut me off that long, she tried to though and that's when it was on like Donkey Kong and it should of been, I refused to stand for it, not going to happen, nada, nope never.

By standing for it for even a while it tends to turn into years, i'd rather divorce right now and get right with getting on with my life than I would waste years trying to fix something that's either broken beyond repair or it's not.

So going with out for months, sure, it takes time to work stuff out, half a year or years? pffft not hardly.

Then good for you, woop dee doo.
Looks like you have all the answers, so what are you doing here?

Sorry troll but we have been through this before. I was very gentle and explained it to you in depth. Now, I have had enough of your judgmental cruelty heaped on my friends and fellow companions enduring the forced march on this trail of tears.

You and your fellow demons (sexless marriages are demonic) are responsible for starving your spouses to the point that they found something to eat elsewhere.

You, and all refusers like you, left the marriage long before the affair started. You and your ilk dissolved the bonds of marriage that otherwise required sexual faithfulness to the marriage. To put it another way YOU and your kind DIVORCED your spouse already through your unfaithfulness. God hates divorce and yet that is what YOU did when you withheld sexual affection for your spouse.

Most people "cheer" not because two people who are not married are exchanging bodily fluids but because the wounded person has found some inner strength to put an end to the mental, emotional and physical abuse being heaped on them daily by their unloving, uncaring demonic spouse.

Is an affair a good solution? No, it really isn't. Even if you don't consider a higher power we know that it is not a great solution. But neither is drinking or drugging yourself, killing yourself, leaving and leaving your kids alone with that demon, or any other solution. If the demonic spouse refuses to REPENT then the choice of the refused boils down to stay and suffer, stay and cheat or leave. All three are horrible choices especially with children involved. So you see why people pick the stay and cheat. It may not be right but for some people it is the lesser of three evils.

What he said.

...any chance I could entice you to unleash some scripture on her, EIT??

If I may:
"The husband must fulfill his (sexual) duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Stop depriving one another (of sex)." 1 Corinthians 7:3-5

I wish Match.com, EHarmony, etc. would let people enter sexual likes and dislikes, and use them as part of the process of matching people up. IOW, if you're a straight woman who loves breast play and would like PIV once or twice a week, you'd be less likely to end up w a leg man who wants it 6 times a year. Then we perverts could be happy w each other, and the low-desire people could play bridge or do crosswords or whatever it is they like to do. If they really want to get wild, I guess they could hold hands.

"Then we perverts could be happy w each other, and the low-desire people could play bridge or do crosswords or whatever it is they like to do. If they really want to get wild, I guess they could hold hands."

That's classic, LMAO!!

LMAO

"low-desire people could play bridge or do crosswords or whatever it is they like to do"
------

We occassionally trade spouses with another couple. They are dear friends and neighbors, and we knew each other in our vanilla lives, through our kids, before we both accidentally outed our lifestyle choices in a spectacular coincidence.

What's even more of a coincidence, is that their catalyst into trying an open relationship was the same as ours. This wasn't evident immediately because they are more closed about their marital affairs, and because she tends to hold such cards close to her chest.

She is intimacy averse, she recently explained. They haven't, for months.

Funny our perspectives on this because as we took our first steps forward, each of our wives detonated in fiery balls of insecurity about the other. And I can say, without hesitation, that I have had some of the sweatiest, rough, unhindered, wild sex with this supposedly "no sex" woman that I've had in my life. I can also say that my wife has done the same with another partner, and also in a more unusual situation where I was present.

The issue, I think with most of these "no sex" folks is not that they don't like sex, even if they think they don't. LOL my wife STILL tries to say she doesn't like sex (on an off day), even though it's a ridiculous claim now. If I point it out, she acquiesces to the truth, for a while at least. It's hard to ditch labels you apply to yourself.

Rather, the issue is one of context and intimacy. It's easy to have sex with someone who is clearly differentiated and where there is little risk in intimacy - in being seen and known.

It's harder to find desire with someone who is so fused with you that you don't know where you end and they begin, and where true intimacy requires forgiving the hurts and opening oneself to trust and vulnerability again.

Bravo that's amazing that's it, cause once my wife moved past the intimacy thing the sex was amazing again. It's that they shut down on getting close to you they just give up on it, and they feel bad for not wanting the guy so they shut it all off but if you light a match near it they'll go off like a blaze of fireworks.

I think something else is broken down, trust, intimacy like you said, it's not a lack of desire for sex, agree completely.

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RRRW: what Lao said. what esjey said. what zsu said.

and more. you claim to have empathy for we, the refused. you can't possibly. your H TOLD you he was starving and you have him a drink of water...twice a month. you can qualify it all you want. try to justify it. try to rationalize it. frankly, your H is a saint. because regardless of your claim of remorse? your thought process reveals otherwise: "he wanted it 3 times per day so maybe he was unhealthy hehe". REALLY.

as a woman who has lived through both situations: victim of a cheating husband (#1), and refuser husband (#2, current &amp; STBX): i can tell you the pain from being refused long term is worse.

at least when your spouse has cheated, you have a "why" and a "who."

when your spouse refuses, AND refuses to take your pain as a matter of utmost urgent importance, and in fact BLAMES YOU for their behaviour: too fat, ugly, don't keep the house clean enough, not nice enough, perverted, too horny, oversexed, read too much fiction &amp; i don't approve, don't do enough around the house, spend too much time with the child(ren), and on and on, ad nauseum....

we, the refused, lose our dignity, our self esteem, self confidence, and more. our souls die a bit more with every cruel rejection. with every mean hearted word spoken as a "reason" why we *just aren't good enough* for them to have sex with. it's no longer even making love. it's become clinical, a mechanical act to be gotten over with as quickly as possible with as little contact as possible.

repeating what I said at the beginning of my reply: you cannot POSSIBLY understand much less truly empathize with what we've gone through...what you put your own husband through. your words here sound nice in principle but they are empty lip service.

Oh hell yes!
One of the last amusing attempts my refusing wife and I had sex, her very words were,"... ok, let's get this over with". RRRW, I don't think you have a clue. I also believe you don't belong here. Find a group more suited to your sexual proclivities... say maybe "Group Quilting" or "Beekeeping for the elderly". Just a few suggestions. Oh, you might want to remove any mirrors from your bathroom to avoid learning you have a body like everybody else...

"it's become clinical, a mechanical act to be gotten over with as quickly as possible with as little contact as possible. "
----------
Funny, I very recently came to an epiphany on a related topic, and had a very intense "course corrective" discussion with my wife on this subject, after she had a revealingly strong negative reaction to me expressing the desire to "try" half of a Viagra pill. As always when I wish try experiment a little, I gave first dibs to her.

This led to wider discussion about the quality and style of sex we had, and her attitude towards "managing my sexuality" and even, I think, a touch of misandrist ideology, of deep seated hate (and I know where it comes from). She clearly extended her issue of "propriety" to far, now into my own body, and she hit my wall.

The resulting furball we both had, as I put the hammer down, was illuminating. I realized that my "settling" for bad, non-intimate sex, early in the peak of the Bad Old Days, even asking or "pressuring" for it as proof of love and an intimate connection, had damaged us both. Bear with me for a moment. I eventually stopped trying, but we had several experiences where she CLEARLY was not into it, and where I continued, hoping she'd come on board. She spent that same time proving to me that while she acquiesced to the use of her body, she was not going to participate.

That transaction was damaging for us both. It allowed her to engineer a situation where she could confirm that I'd take the passionless intimacy barren screw that she, in her passive aggressive way, was going to offer me instead of the mercy of saying "No." And that I could actually come from it.

There's all kinds of insights around this dynamic and plenty of blame to share, but I'll also own to this much. I despised myself for finding, when it was quickly and clinically over, or when she chose not to "show up". I despised myself for accepting that, in lieu of what I wanted. I realize now, I'm better than that and deserve more than that.

So as we plough through subsequent issues surrounding a lack of trust around intimacy and vulnerability, it strikes me that she must also have residual feelings as well. She shares responsibility for creating the scenario, with the result being that it's harder to respect my sexuality when I will accept such an unnourishing meal. I let her do that - for a while.

exactly, apocrypha....that i *allowed* him to use my body that way (because it was the only way to get *any* physical contact with him) shamed me as much as it reflected on him. it took me long enough to come to grips with that.

very recently he offered me more of the same "re set" clinical/totally mechanical act: my answer was "no."

what an epiphany--for me--and long overdue. i refuse to settle.

I could nearly feel my wifes skin crawling when having sex with me, forgive me but at that point my reaction was this is hopeless we need to move towards divorce.

My thoughts were we need to be divorced if she feels that way I aint comming back from that, this is hopeless and why on earth would she want to stay but when I said I was leaving she seemed hurt.

This told me something was completely fubar'd.

My point is that cheating just leaves the fubar'd stuff there, if it's messed up you can either fix it or not but cheating fixes nothing.

It's like cheating at solitaire, sure you get sex but then what? You're still married to someone that cant stand being with you. Great, what if you actually like the other person you're having sex with?

You can't do anything like get married until you're divorced so you're in some kind of bizzaro relationship that's again fubar'd before you even got out of the last fubar'd relationship.

I'm not passing moral judgements on it, it's just not a great idea unless again both people want an open marriage then that's a bit different.

Which is why I think you should divorce when they say things like that, they either mean it or they don't and are just trying to hurt you.

By allowing them to treat you like that you're just digging the disrespect hole deeper.

It clicked for me when I decided that marriage is not forever, that if they don't want me then maybe part of it is me and I'll work on me and that maybe if I'm unwanted I'll just get lost and go and start over.

Once I hit that point and was going is the only thing that ever turned it around.

CVann5. Thanks for the suggestions

By the way, I've overcome the mirror. Check that flaw off. I don't know if you read that in my post somewhere but i didn't look at myself in the mirror much less look at him. Haven't you heard Ive had some issues.

I do have a far better clue now than i did so I'm on my way! God willing. By the way, the quilting group just wouldn't do it for me these days as I am a reformed refuser! I have feelings where I should have them again. Who hoo

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"I wonder if some of you have suffered both refusal and an affair your spouse was involved in. I would like to know what your feelings are."
------------
I have been in this position. My wife engaged in an affair after many years of feeling that she was a dud, sexually. She internalized and claimed as identity the harmful (and completely erroneous) thought that she was a non-sex person, and hating it and the harm that it caused. When our partners claim limitations as a point of identity, it prevents them from growth, especially when both partners begin to believe it and reinforce it.

That is why I am so firm about the my view of the self-perpetuating harm caused by triaging these folks into "non-sex" people. One of my lovers is a "non-sex" person in her own marriage, and yet, clearly she's an animal when that pent up frustration is released. And I have personally witnessed the same with my wife, with other partners, and in scenarios that are sufficiently removed from our "norm" as to diffuse the intimate dynamic between us. I'll warrant that I'm not the only one here in this situation, and that after the separations eventually happen to most of us in these groups, these non-sex people are going forth into new relations, exploring their sexuality with a vengeance. Likewise, many of us sex-friendly folks are going to be so wounded by where our passions have betrayed us, that we will never let go with a truly intimate partner for years.

My point, with respect to affairs, is that the side benefit of breaking the gridlock in a marriage is lost. They miss the opportunity to bring into SHARP FOCUS the consequence and reality of behavior on BOTH sides of the primary partnership. Do you think, if it was known and open that you were going on that date, instead of keeping it a secret, that things would start to get done to resolve the issues in the marriage? This is where indifference and tolerance of limitation and filibustering ends up being owned as a choice with a meaningful consequence that demands to be metabolized, on both sides.

What does an affair achieve for a marriage, as long as it is secret? It shines a light on the piece that's missing, and it delays the cost and accrues interest. It calcifies and normalizes patterns of deception and misses the opportunity for growth. It allows the "refusing" partner to continue their fiction, and you to continue yours. And it defers the detonation to include deceit and betrayal, in addition to whatever the initial factors are that feed the intimacy aversion. If your goal is to work it out, you pay now, or you pay later, but you are both going to pay.

I think my wife had an affair, I have no proof, I'm not that upset at her and the cheating would hurt if I found out for sure but I would of forgiven her that our marriage sucked.

So if she had one it likely saved our marriage because it made her so untennable with it that she wanted out which forced me to deal with my own issues, then she paused in leaving me, then we did the maybe maybe not dance for about a year and finally I started to say enough of this crap.

When I set my foot down and wanted to leave it got better, because she decided she wanted it to, it's that simple, we have sex like bunnies now and still I am not sure it'll last.

The point is from where we were to where we are is astonishing, and mostly it had to do with things I worked through, and she didn't believe it was real, took forever but essentially I unhinged a really codepenent relationship and once I did that which was the single hardest thing I've ever done, once I did that she seemed to sense it and gain respect for me again and then things got better.

Had I cheated I would of lost all that respect from her I had gained and I would of been toast.

So I just think it's a bad idea and even so if she had one and it was not on purpose it could of saved our marriage, so I think it's different if it's unknown and unfound out.

I think my wife had an affair, I have no proof, I'm not that upset at her and the cheating would hurt if I found out for sure but I would of forgiven her that our marriage sucked.

So if she had one it likely saved our marriage because it made her so untennable with it that she wanted out which forced me to deal with my own issues, then she paused in leaving me, then we did the maybe maybe not dance for about a year and finally I started to say enough of this crap.

When I set my foot down and wanted to leave it got better, because she decided she wanted it to, it's that simple, we have sex like bunnies now and still I am not sure it'll last.

The point is from where we were to where we are is astonishing, and mostly it had to do with things I worked through, and she didn't believe it was real, took forever but essentially I unhinged a really codepenent relationship and once I did that which was the single hardest thing I've ever done, once I did that she seemed to sense it and gain respect for me again and then things got better.

Had I cheated I would of lost all that respect from her I had gained and I would of been toast.

So I just think it's a bad idea and even so if she had one and it was not on purpose it could of saved our marriage, so I think it's different if it's unknown and unfound out.

We already paid it Apocrypha and still are, both of us.

RRRW- I'll go out on a limb here and say that I can see your point. I have also appreciated your perspective and willingness to acknowledge your mistakes and take the abuse that comes from us bitter members of this group.<br />
<br />
I agree with your observation that there is a bit of a double standard when it comes to affairs discussed here. Unlike you however, I have lived with the deep soul-crushing pain of over 16 years in a sexless marriage. I have told myself that I will divorce before choosing to have an affair, but if I was presented with an opportunity, I'm not 100% sure I would have the self control to resist.I also think it can be a slippery slope, and the refused is in an extremely vulnerable condition when exposed to temptation. I took a baby step and created a blank profile on a couple dating websites just to see if there were any potentially normal prospects out there if I find myself single. I felt bad about it for a while. Then a couple women started messaging me. I made it clear that i was still married and not looking for anything, but it was a rush and an ego boost to have someone interested in what I had to say.They think I am smart, funny and cute! I feel bad about even exchanging messages with other women and am still committed not to meet anyone, but I can see how nearly irresistible it can be for someone starved for affection. If my marriage isn't either fixed or finished soon, I don't know how long my resolve will hold out.<br />
<br />
I kind of went off on a tangent there, but I will admit it: Yes. I am one of those who cheers for someone who finally finds someone who makes them feel appreciated and alive.Whether they are still married or not. I am still choosing not to do so myself, but I hold no judgement for them because I fully understand what is driving them to do it.It feeds my dream that maybe someday I will be able to find someone that wants me. Who doesn't cringe at my touch. Who doesn't try to make me feel like a pervert.Who will share her entire self with me. I am starting to realize that life is too short for me to be this miserable. I don't want to break up my kids' home, but I am dying inside. Very soon, enough will be enough!

Faithfully blue, I really liked your post. A very sensible and empathetic presentation of thoughts. I hope you find your solution soon. We all understand that a SM is painful and will always almost end unless fixed soon. The question is about how to fix it. I believe the best possible way to handle it by bluntly telling your spouse that you give them a timeframe within it needs to be fixed or you are leaving/divorcing. This is called tough love. Affairs/cheating are not the solution. It ends up hurting everyone and people loose their self respect in the end.

Faithfully blue I don't think you went off on tangent and I understand and agree with you on everything you've said. It's the truth. I wish you the best

I see the differece as the refuser is refusing to have sex with you, even though you try to have sex and be intimate. The refuser could be having sex with you but they go out and find it else where. Even though they have the willing spouse at home. In the reverse the refusee is trying to be intimate with there spouse but they are not willing to be. This person has needs. They dont have a spouse at home willing to be intimate with them. Though i dont think having an affair is a good idea, things happen. It is hard to go months and years without the intimacy you need and desire.

RRRW,

Many of the members here have been refused sexual intimacy for years. The reasons, excuses and behavioral avoidance enacted by their refusing spouses are legion. Imagine being refused despite communication, attempts to initiate, the whole cosmopolitan magazine litany of suggestions, efforts to get one's spouse to counseling, etc, and then finding out your refuser spouse really only does not want to fvck you. He or she is alright with doing the wild thing with anyone else.

While you mentioned the cheer squad for refused spouses who do begin an affair, have you acknowledged the many members here who caution going into one with eyes wide open and the personal responsibility it entails? Sisters MVCMVC and Enna and Brother Bazz often share words of wisdom and sense about 'outsourcing'. Sisters EinEngel and MaryRyan also provide balanced viewpoints.

Life is not a stepwise process, it is messy, like streaky scrambled eggs. No one chose to be in a sex less marriage and no one can exercise total control over how they work their way through it. What I do know about intimacy is this - I spent many years dying slowly inside. I tried just about everything to rekindle some spark. I staggered into this forum in November 2007 after being married for ten years, of which eight were sexless.

There were days I felt like walking out in front of a bus. I slept beside a woman who used her flannel pjs and bed covers as a shield against my touch. All the while she told me she loved me and gave me changing reasons for our lack of intimacy. I grew resentful and angry and withdrawn. I lost my passion and spent many nights a wake just staring out the window wondering what I had done wrong. I would not wish this on any member suffering here. Please consider all of this in your musings on the reactions to affairs.

-----"So it's like compounded 100x over and its a 365 days a year you live in anguish just trying to heal and get your life back on track."

Welcome to the world of those who live in long term sexless marriages and are the refused.

You cannot engage in long term refusive behaviors and expect your partner to respond within your own morally ethical boundaries (that is, he should divorce me rather than cheat). They will deal with the problem that you contributed to in their own way. If one doesn't want that to happen, then do not create the problem in the first place.

"You cannot engage in long term refusive behaviors and expect your partner to respond within your own morally ethical boundaries"

Like x a million - thank you mvcmvc this is ALL that needs to be said here

The problem is that "not cheating is the morality of millions " vs ok to cheat as the morality of few on this site

Not cheating is your morality, C12. Not mine. Taking care of myself and making sure I am not abused or mistreated is my #1 moral and ethical goal. Anything else is details. My job in life is to take care of me, then take care of those I love to the limits of my abilities, but not beyond. How I go about that is, quite frankly, none of your business. If my love and I agree to an open relationship or to join a swingers club or to ********** and that meets the "take care of me, take care of them" requirement then how I do it is none of your business.

Too many of us here forget that we have to take care of ourselves first and we become doormats.

<p>Why would the refuser set their own partner up to fail?</P><br />
<p>Why would the refuser not create an environment where intimacy is given freely?</P><br />
<p>Long term refusal can and often does have serious consequences.</P><br />
<p>Long term refusal is no more morally defensible than an affair. And in my own opinion, long term refusal is WORSE than an affair. Like a slow growing cancer it infects every aspect of the marriage, it's corrosive impact more serious than an outright affair.</P><br />
<p>BOTH can be seen, by those so inclined to place a moral fr<x>ame around behavior, as despicable..</P>

Absolutely agree with you. Unless you have been there, experienced the pain and confusion... This topic is nothing more than a debating exercise.
Not all of us that have been refused will cheat. Not all refusers cheat. Every circumstance is unique except that we all share in the pain that being in a sexless marriage causes.
Having a deep religious upbringing also, I will not judge or condemn others for their choices. I just pray that GOD gives me what I need rather than what I deserve.
C

To me: Refuser cheats = you are already emotionally abusing your spouse, and now you up it by being unfaithful, too. Refused cheats = You are being emotionally abused and seek comfort elsewhere, likely as a first step to getting the **** out.

Look, why don't you go find the "I denied my spouse sex for years and then when he had an affair because I denied his basic needs I became a snivelling little prostheletizer on ILIASM" forum and go join that?

Yeah, yeah, you were SO HURT that your spouse had an affair - why don't you just go own your own life and **** OFF, as I for one am TIRED OF HEARING FROM YOU.

Zsuz I always love your replies *chuckle*!

Don't read my stories then. Not being smart here. I am hurt and he is too. I don't put anymore emphasis on my pain vs his. I know why he cheated it was at my hands that's how I feel I have an idea of what I've done I know how I've hurt him

Thank you cvann ;)

RRRW: I put it to you you are striking back at US because you are hurt. You get satisfaction in being judgmental and "throwing stones", because YOU are hurt by YOUR HUSBAND's affair. SURELY even YOU can understand that your comments are HURTFUL and JUDGMENTAL, and contain ZERO true understanding of what many of us are/have experienced.

You really have a great opportunity for learning, and instead you are using your hurt to hurt others.

Cheating/affairs are never right. You can never justify it. However, no one is saying that people should not have compassion and empathy for others who lived in a SM and end up having affairs because of their unique situation. I am personally not judging any individual. I am just judging individuals actions.

It's never that black and white. What about all the relationships here that have become open marriages or who have sought and received permission from the spouse because, quite frankly, the spouse doesn't want sex and doesn't mind enough to object to the refused spouse having a lover? Technically it's an affair and yet to that couple, it is NOT cheating. I get so tired of people who try to say Marriage IS this. Marriage is what that couple makes of it. And we do not have any idea what is really going on in anyone else's bedrooms or relationships.

Z. I don't know how I'm striking back at you all. I did not mean to come across in this fashion and it wasn't my intent. I'm not a stone thrower or a judge. I'm not taking it out on you. Lord knows I am not mean spirited and did not intent to hurt or make anyone feel bad. I apologize I typed a statement below to All posters

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Well, IMO, there's something worse than an affair on either side- when one spouse completely shuts down communication and withholds affection. When that spouse refuses to acknowledge any wrong doing and prevents any measure of improvement from taking place. So if, as a side effect, the other spouse has an affair- it should have almost been expected.
It's a whole ton different when the very spouse that is withholding affection/sex/communication is found to also be sleeping around. Talk about running over a person with a truck.

Why do some people choose to stay with a Refuser and carry on a secret affair instead of divorcing? I don't know. I'm sure each have their own reasons. Those reasons aren't too hard to imagine, though. Bad economy, illness in one spouse etc.

Maybe they still love their spouse??

People who love each other do not make each other beg for the one thing they promised to have only between the two of them. people who love each other do not deny each other the most basic needs that they express over and over again or mock each other for. A refuser may love a refused spouse but it is not in the way the refused spouse wants to be loved. They go outside the marriage to find the type of love they are lacking.

RRRW, You have a lot of feelings about your husband's affair, clearly. He was interested in sex with you though. What if he had refused your every sexual advance (or almost every) for three years and THEN you found out he had been cheating on you...???

This is not an either/or situation. In these cases these people both rejected/refused AS WELL AS had the same exact affair situation that caused you so much pain. Of course there's more sympathy to that! That only makes sense.

A lot of your posts seem like you want to be told that what you did wasn't as hurtful as what he did. You're in the wrong group for that. This is a group of people who have known the pain and are articulate and self aware enough to refuse to accept that line of thinking that allows blame to shift onto him.

If you tell your husband that you are the only place he can have sex and then deny him sex, he is stuck with losing HIMSELF/being unfaithful to himself or being unfaithful to you and possibly losing you. If you love him as you say you do, you wouldn't want him to lose or give up himself, right?

Your actions were selfish and your attempts to paint yourself as more of a victim still are. He has to own his actions, as do any outsourcing people here. Incidentally that's why we push the exit plan. Because it might be needed quickly, especially if there's outsourcing going on.

I think anyone has a lot of feelings about being cheated on it is hard to deal with. I think I have dealt as well as anyone could honestly. I forgave him right off sincerely. How could I not after what I had put him through. I did take my blame in all of this and have owned it. I have honestly never blamed him for this I've always blamed us both to anyone I spoke to about this.

Oh no, really, it may read or come across like that, but I really don't want anyone saying what was worse as far as that goes. I'm not trying to make myself feel better or anything like that. It's like you said, he just wanted me and that's the truth. I really don't see me painting myself as the victim I thought I shared responsibility thought my post. Sometimes thing don't read like you want them to maybe? Idk. I don't think I feel the victim, but I have suffered tremendously over this and have been through a lot. I have more guilty feelings about the way I was than what he did to me. I suffer so much because of my actions and what I did to him.

I really am just interested in someone's feelings if they been on both sides of the fence. Im curious, not for any other reason than that. It's not like my position will change or I will feel better or worse.

I do realize the extra added implications to someone who is being refused being cheated on by their refusing partner.

Thanks for your insight. I always go back when someone mentions a different take than what I intended and read to see if I can see it to. Sometimes when you are writing it doesn't sound as you mean it or as someone understands it.

"I could never fathom doing that to myself or my family." But you were unfaithful to your husband. You didn't have sex with him and he had an affair. After rejection, he went elsewhere to save himself.

When a refuser cheats on the refused it is doubly, triply painful. The story in the refused's mind now becomes "It wasn't that they didn't want sex... they just didn't want me or didn't want sex WITH me." We sympathize with the refused because they've already experienced amazing pain at trying to understand their why, possibly NOT cheating when they had opportunities or struggling with fidelity despite constant rejection and overcoming the loss of their own sense of identity as a sexual being. Now they get to realize that the person who said "I am not in the mood" was in fact in the mood with someone else.

You say that you have great sympathy for many here and that you have empathy for what your H was feeling. I do not think you have nearly enough of either. A post like this would not be necessary if you did. This seems self-serving. No one here is going to ra-ra on the person who claims not to like sex but holds on to their marriage so she can have the nice house, the nice car, spend freely, go play tennis etc but then have sex with some other guy while pretending to be using a gift given to her by her H, as was posted here recently. On the other hand someone who has been refused for years and wants to stay for the kids or can't imagine leaving an ill spouse or finances tie them together for a while longer... when they decide to take back their sexuality that is a victory. More often than not, it is the first step towards divorce. Not because they end up with the affair partner but because the reality of it all simply becomes clear once an affair has been had. If you do not understand this, then there's nothing any of us can say to you here that will get you to understand. Perhaps you are too blinded by your own pain of betrayal to have sympathy for those who have been neglected and abused like so many here and who finally may take a courageous step towards a sense of sexual identity that was taken against their will by a refusing spouse.

First of all I do have sympathy and empathy for the people on this site. No doubts. I get it a lot more than you think I do I'm well aware.

I did not mean for this to be self serving at all. I am going to go back and read it because that was not my intent. I do not want to insult anyone on this site or seem self serving because that's not who I am. I may delete this store not because I don't want to hear the comments because I do not want to sound self serving or that I don't have true empathy. I simply wanted to hear from people who have suffered both that's all. I figured that they would say its the same really. That's what I expected.

Also, by the way, if I had been rejected all my marriage I would not ever have an affair that is how strongly I feel about it. I would have said this before all of this. I don't think because you have issues or marital problems that justifies having an affair. You know, it wasn't like I didn't have sex with him. I did have sex with him every month at least 2 x a month no less and a lot of the times more. You know I will say that for myself. It's not like he didn't get any from me for months or years. I also did make efforts throughout or life's to try to do better and get help. He wanted 3 x a day so he may have just had issues too ya know.

Rrrw, I didn't have an affair either. Many of us don't. Many of us just leave. My x offered to let me and I considered it. For some ppl they need the affair as a springboard to making some hard choices for themselves. It's best not to judge them for it. Love them, understand them and empathize with them. I try to understand where they are coming from, even if I am hurting about it. Sometimes I don't get there but it's important to me that I try to get there.

RRRW, remember that this is a self-selecting board. If you were denied intimacy and secure in your ideas about how to handle the situation, then you probably would not find your way to this board. If you still found your way to this board under those circumstances, then most likely you would skip over or be unconcerned with the stories that discuss affairs. So you are mixing apples and oranges with your argument.

The denizens of this board (me included) share a primal hurt that needs resolution. I would be surprised if a majority have not seriously considered an affair, if only to reject the idea.

Ultimately, I wonder what you are seeking here.

Well initially I stumbled across this sight and I wrote my story about being a refusing spouse truly honestly to help anyone o could. I know, not many refuses are on this site, but I have gotten some positive feed back from some refused on using or associating with some of my experiences and suggestions. That's all I was after I wanted to help that young girl just starting her marriage not to have to go through what we endured. I know some may thing that's BS, but its not. I know my heart and so does my Lord. Maybe it's time I stop writing stories on here because I do not want to come across like most of you perceive me. I just not that way.

CWDG. I need to go back and read my story because I did not want to be judgmental at all that's not for me to judge. I honestly feel and thought I was accepting and not judging anyone. I have been trying to understand all of this and learn from this group more in depth what my husband felt and thinks. I do accept ones choice it is just that their choice I don't mean to sound like I'm a saint because I'm clearly not.

RRRW, if that is true I want you to sit back and take stock of the huge amount of hostility you are getting from this amazing group of self aware, loving individuals all going through hell. Some of these people I know in person. Some of them I exchange Christmas Cards with. Some I talk to on the phone regularly. I have plans to visit a few in the next couple of months for a long weekend at their home because their genuineness and their wisdom are a joy to be around. A few I have driven a half day to meet and get to know better because they are amazing human beings and I love them. These are amazingly smart, bright, loving, connected and open people. Can you see the pain your statements are bringing about? Right or wrong is irrelevant. These people have been through a lot. No ONE comes here wanting to outsource. God, how we would ALL have LOVED to find a magic bullet to fix things so we could have kept our marriages alive. You don't know this group very well but to see so many people that I admire and care about here - on this one thread - so hurt and so angry and feeling so talked down to... it says LOADS to me. There is a lot to learn from this group. The first thing for you though is throw everything out the window about how you personally have been hurt by an affair. If you want to walk a mile in your husband's shoes, then walk a mile in ours first. Hear us. Listen to what everyone is saying to you. Stop defending. Stop telling us how you don't want to judge anyone and actually breathe and listen. Feel the pain we are talking about. Only then can you have a paradigm shift. You have to stop seeing those who outsource as breaking their vows and start seeing them as people who have been deeply hurt and are trying to regain some strength.

Wow. I will say this there are many new names that are posting that I am not familiar with. A lot I haven't seen before some I have.

POSTERS TO THIS THREAD

This story was not meant to hurt anyone or make anyone feel worse. I didn't meant to offend or talk down to anyone. I guess I came across sounding like I thought I was better because I would not have an affair. I'm no better, maybe worse for what I've done. I'm not saying its wrong for some people it is a choice and I'm not the one to judge at all.

You make me feel like hanging my head in shame Changewilldoyougood, I sure didn't mean to sound the way I have been perceived and I'm so sorry that I have hurt or made anyone feel bad or belittled in anyway. That wasn't my intent. I will be more than happy to delete this out of sheer respect for your group and site. I do realize there are many who have suffered and endured so much and have been so hurt its almost inconceivable.

Change: That was very articulate and well said. This is a very hurtful subject for a great deal of us here (hence our presence), and your thoughtfulness in your response is much appreciated.

RRRW, I do not want you to delete this. Not at all. I want you and others to learn from it and us to talk about it. This place is tough to stick around.

I don't want you to hang your head in shame. I want you to poke your head up and realize that while we are all just avatars and names here on this board we are people in real life with huge feelings. Go read my story "Meeting Up". It's about the meetup from the fall where people flew in from all over the world to experience in person the support that they have received online from each other. That is not all about "yay! you cheated!". It's about "yay! you moved forward!" or "yay! you saw a lawyer!" or "yay! you had the talk!" or "no, their why does not matter to you at this moment. Focus on YOU." This place means a ton to those of us who are in it and those of us who are out because it is so hard to make progress.

Withholding sex is abuse. Do you know how hard it is to get an abused spouse to leave their abuser and stay gone? This board does it at a much higher rate than even the best therapists. There is good being done here. You don't have to like all the methods offered up... but if a beaten wife needed to have an affair to feel that someone could treat her better before she would feel strong enough to leave him, would you have more understanding of that?

This is the same. You are dealing with people who have been horribly abused. RRRW, read my stories if you haven't already. I left and I'm out almost two years now. But I stay here to help shine a light on the path for newbies and those in the thick of it... that it gets better. One foot in front of the other. And to help reframe insensitive but otherwise well-meaning posts that stab into their hearts as they try to climb out of the pit of neglect and abuse and feeling terrible about themselves. They should not feel guilty for taking care of themselves again. Some of them it's the first time in decades they met their own needs instead of just taking more abuse. Sometimes the abuse is physical, usually it's emotional and verbal and there's always sexual neglect here.

RRRW, I don't dislike you. I and many others here are just asking you to shift your paradigm. It'll be good for your marriage. That much I promise.

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