Confused? Affair - Refused Vs Refuser

Many know he cheated because he let it go on and on and it was with someone at his work place and the longer it goes the better the chances of getting caught. Not as many know about my end of it, but there are many who do. More than you think really. The people who count all know I've told them in detail about my refusal and my part in this. I've told them I have much blame and he would have never done this if I hadn't been the way I was. My girls, my sister, his sisters, his mom, his niece, my dad, really close friends and anyone who I have ever talked to I have always taken my blame and explained how I was. If a conversation were to come up about it with anyone I find that is an opportunity to share my story in hopes it won't happen to them. I've talked with many friends at work and they all know how I feel about it to. I've taken every opportunity and it is very important to me to share my faults in hopes that someone else will not fall in the same patterns I did.

I have always said he's a good man and he deserved better of me and that is the way I have approached it with anybody I talked to. Usually when a conversation starts about this the first words put of my mouth are telling my faults and what I did to result in this. I have never bashed him or bad mouthed him in any way. If someone were to talk negatively about him I would be the first to take up for him and once again point out my issues and how it affected him.

RRRW, You told everyone about your husband's infidelity and your part in why he did so! Well.... that, in my opinion is attention seeking behavior. How does letting everyone know help you heal yourself and your marriage? Broadcasting the negative aspects of your life with him is as bad as condemning him. Just an observation, but his affair has become your obsession. Get over it and work on your marriage with your husband ONLY, if that is your choice! However, involving everyone is probably not beneficial. It is simply not any of their business.

Sure speaking truth and sharing pain and hurt is an attention seeking behavior but having an affair is not. Good god.

Kelki has a point RW. His affair was four years ago, your discovery almost 3 years ago. I understand pain takes a while to heal from. But if you don't heal from it and move forward to a place where it doesn't hurt so much your marriage can't improve and heal. Yes, you can have sex and affair proof your marriage but you also need to be able to move on and be together without those painful memories everywhere. Forgiveness is hard, especially when we feel we have to forgive ourselves as much as the other person. But 4 years is a long time. I hope you aren't still hurting over this one way or another in the next 4 years. Maybe it's time for you to be the one to break the gridlock and make a step towards forgiveness in all its depth and glory.

RRRW, This comment lead me to that conclusion;
"The people who count all know I've told them in detail about my refusal and my part in this. I've told them I have much blame and he would have never done this if I hadn't been the way I was. My girls, my sister, his sisters, his mom, his niece, my dad, really close friends and anyone who I have ever talked to I have always taken my blame and explained how I was. If a conversation were to come up about it with anyone I find that is an opportunity to share my story in hopes it won't happen to them. I've talked with many friends at work and they all know how I feel about it to. I've taken every opportunity and it is very important to me to share my faults in hopes that someone else will not fall in the same patterns I did."

My question is "Why do you feel all these people need to know about what did or did not happen in your bedroom?". Geez, why don't you just post all the details in the local paper or start your own chapter of a Cheated Spouses club. Really, RRRW, ask youself if this is going to save your marriage? Didn't the weirdos who stuck their nose in your business do enough damage? How often have you told the story in the last few years? At some point, you are going to have to accept the past and forgive him and yourself and move forward. Change is right, 4 years is a long time!

Cheaters12, FYI! Many people get into affairs to fill a need not get attention. That is why affairs are often kept discreet. Sometimes, an affair partner is the only person who understands the pain and hurt and that connection becomes part of the healing process in a sexless marriage. Most of us in sexless marriages would be mortified if our families knew that there is no sex in our bedrooms.

I agree Kelki. My husbands affair, my affair, have nothing to do with attention. It is fulfilling something we aren't getting and giving to each other. If our sons, friends or relatives spend the night, I always sleep in the master bedroom with my husband. No one knows the dynamic within my house. It is a decision that my husband and I have made together, regarding our marriage. Our friends and families see us as a married couple, which is what we are. The intimate issues of our marriage is exactly, that "ours".

Change. It's been 3 yrs I have gone through 4 Christmas dec 2009. Not that it matters. Here's the thing I was ready to let this go and move forward right away. He was not ready and he's still not ready. He is the one that has kept this raw and has kept the hurt fresh. The OW's husband found out in May of 2010 they were supposed to stop having contact then. They work together still do. He is in a different building but they are still working in the same company. They talked to each other many times after this and every time my sixth sense would kick in and I knew something was going on. I don't know if they were physically together or not after everyone found out I wonder, probably were. After everyone found out though it would have been a lot harder because her husband was watching her like a hawk, I was watching for signs I could smother my husband I knew I couldn't, and everyone they worked with knew it and was watching them like hawks too. If they were smart they wouldn't have because her husband wanted to kill my husband (I didn't really want to kill her, but I could have strangled her with my own bare hands) I really did want to hurt her, but I took the stupid high road for many reasons and never got my hands on her. Did talk to her a few times and wrote her a 20 page letter. I've never been a violent person, never fought, always was the piece maker. Anyway, got of track, but I was really trying and I believe I could have let it go along time ago, but things kept popping up and he wouldn't let it go so how could I let it go. One time he said its just me and you and I thought okay let's do it. Then I find out they had talked. That undermines everything. I had to blindly trust him while he still went to work with her and still is going to work with her. He's never tried to gain any trust back from me and that is really important. I don't want to go through all of it, but there have been many things that have happened after they been found out that know body knows but me and them. Her husband doesn't know half what I know.

We have a common good friend that my husband confided in and I told him I thought she wouldn't leave him alone. He affirmed my thoughts and said it was true. My husband kept picking up her call though he didn't have to do that he could have ended it too. He didn't want to. Here's the thing though she told me she loved her husband and she would go home and work on her marriage and trying to make it better, but then wouldn't leave mine alone. She was very selfish didn't care about anybody but herself. She still wanted to feel in power with my husband and in the mean time fix her marriage at mines expense. Time after time I would discover things along the way and it was like always coincidence or I would walk right into it. It was like my guardian angel was helping me out to know when something was a rye. I believe my h would tell you that he is the one that couldn't move forward and kept it alive and fresh in our minds and hearts. My opinion and what I told him was, it's happened, it's over, forget it and roll on. What is in the past, is in the past. Live in the present day by day. I was ready to not ask or talk about it if he could have moved on. I knew so very much about their relationship and how he felt for her that is something a wife should not ever know.

I am soooo ready to get over it believe me I have come along way. I've stopped obsessing over images and thoughts everyday now and she doesn't pop into my head that often I'm working on that. When he doesn't pick up my call right away though it still send a shock of alarm. I guess you have after shocks when something reminds you of his behavior. It's hard.

Really Kelki? All I'm saying here is I felt the need to explain that I was part of the problem that he did not cheat on me just to cheat on me. Yes if I can tell my story and keep one couple together and they can learn something from it then so be it.. I don't go around telling every flippin stranger. Good close family and friends yeah when it cam up I would say its a lot on me. I made him so vulnerable I did this to him. The blame is not all on him. I wanted all of our family, immediate family, to know my part I wanted to own up to my issues and part in this whole thing.

It's was not a self serving act here I opened up and told my iniquities and failures that played into his actions. I did not give details of our six life, I just said I rejected him so many times and I had low libido and that I did not do him right. That I was to blame just as he was. That's all.

I know it's embarrassing, but we did have sex just not enough sex for his needs. Would you rather I not own my part in this affair and just let everyone think what they normally would? Do you suggest I just keep my mouth shut and let him go down in flames himself! Believe me there is nothing I wanted more than for him to end this before anyone found out. I begged him to stop and it would just be me, him, and her that knew, but that wasn't the case.

If he would have never started this, talked to me first, kept it in his pants or stopped the affair NO ONE WOULD HAVE KNOWN ANYTHING

RW, I'm going to start at the bottom. When you say things like "kept it in his pants" it does sound disrespectful towards his and all of our needs to be sexual in marriage. I know that's how some women refer to sex but it is distasteful at the very least and it alienates those of us here who do not ever view sex that way. It paints you as a typical refuser who sees sex as "a man not keeping it in his pants." Incidentally, I am female but have a different perception of sex than you, so I am curious... in your lexicon should I "keep him out of my pants"?

Yes! You should have kept your mouth shut. It was nobody' s business but his and yours. As for the affair, whatever happened was between him and the OW. I agree with CWDYG. I do not know if you will ever be able to respect or trust him again.

RRRW, you may not like what I have to say next but please consider it nonetheless. If you have to watch your H or his mistress like a hawk to make sure they aren't cheating then you do not have a marriage. You have a child.

If he knows how you feel about continued contact with her and he continues contact with her, then your marriage is over. period. No trust can be rebuilt.

With enough pressure and effort on your part I bet he will stay married to you. But you will have to watch him like a hawk and you will never really know what he wants... you will only know what he does under your pressure.

If he wants to be with that other woman, he will. Or he will be with you but WANT to be elsewhere in his heart. You deserve a man who will both be with you and WANT to be with you. You can not know what he wants in his heart by asking him. Watch his actions when you release all this "watching like a hawk" stuff and "every time something was happening I caught on to it" stuff. Newsflash: For every rat you see there are 100 below decks. You didn't catch every time...

If you can't trust him, you're done. You haven't forgiven him and he hasn't forgiven you. There's no forgiveness, there's no trust and you don't even really know what he wants... you only know what he's saying while he's feeling pressure and fear of getting caught.

Let him free of all that and see what he does. It will tell you everything you need to know.

Esjey25. I have forgiven him I forgave him right up front because of my part in this and I believe if God can forgive him and me then I can forgive my husband too. He's not had contact with her from what I know since August 2011 they have not been talking is what I'm told. I have been told by others that she is still with her husband and they are doing well. Who knows. I agree on trust its got to be there. It's gonna take awhile though for him and me. I can trust him again once and if he decides he wants my trust back and starts showing me that. I have known my husband a long time and I know how he is. There was no way I was going to keep my thumb on him, check on him, and stuff like that and him not get really angry. I have had to walk a fine line with him and this subject. I have had to blindly accept and work with my feelings to overcome these feelings. I'm still scared about them talking or something. I'm kind of coming out of that a little it seems to be better. It's hard!

Kelki. Did you see my response to you on how my husbands affair to come out below. Just wondering its way down the line. Thx

Cwdyg. It wasn't out of disrespect for my husband I made the keep it in your pants comment. I was a little heated and up set and that point I wrote that. I have never said that to anyone I have never talked bad about my husband to anyone. I have always taken up for him. I know I rejected my husband more than I ever should have, but the fact is too that he did sleep with another woman. I still firmly believe you should not have an affair just because their are issues in this marriage. So does he. he's told me that since the affair. He told me I didn't deserve this that no one deserved that. I also believe you shouldn't refuse your spouse too but you also have to figure out a happy medium for both parties. I don't think I could have kept up with my husband all of these years because he literally could have done it morning and night 3 x a day would have been fine with him. I had no desire or libido or arousal go without that and see how you feel. I would have given anything to have been sexual and loving and affection and made my husband happy.

I don't really see how that comment makes it sound like it is disrespectful to his or to all of your needs to be in a sexual marriage. I'm confused on that one. You think you have an idea of what kind of woman and refuser I am, but I really don't think you do. I have been really humble and good to my husband through this whole ordeal. I really have. He's probably treated me, no not probably, he's treated me the worst in our whole life's during this 3 yrs because he's still blaming me for everything and not taking his part in this as of yet. Sorry about the comment didn't mean to offend you I was just mad at being fussed at for taking p for my husband and taking my part in what happened.

I don't know if our read my full response maybe you did and your still telling me to keep my mouth shut. Idk. I didn't tell details of our sex life. I did tell that I did not take care of him like I should have and that I let him be vulnerable and that is what lead this affair. I am a very polite, smart person and I don't go running around telling things I shouldn't. Especially, when it comes to my husband I still love him, I'm still good to him and would never intentionally hurt him. I know your going to say well you rejected him, had I know what I was doing to him I would have changed I had no idea the pain he was in.

You said you dont think i can respect or trust him wrong, im sorry. i can trust him again with my whole heart when we work through all of this and i still respect him never lost my respect for my husband. I have always been very proud of my husband. it really kind of gets to me the way you speak to me, that's what made me so mad last night in writing the comments about if it never started, stopped the affair or kept it in his pants. You are pretty judgmental I think in your statements. That's my opinion. Usually the comments don't get to me to much. You just seemed to be fussing at me for things I didn't do and wasn't guilty of. Don't know wh it got to me like it did maybe all of it just got to me.

RW, "keep it your pants" is the same as telling a woman to "keep her legs shut".

You do not understand how disrespectful that is because you and I view sex differently. I view sex as a life-affirming act. I need it, I crave it. At times when I had no libido I still needed sex for the connection it brought me. Not having it - it is not about an ******. "Keep it in your pants" is amazingly disrespectful for someone like me.

I don't know your H. I don't know how he views sex. Most people here are sex people like me. This is why we say "the sex people should be with the sex people." Your libido is back and yet, you still are not a sex person. you still don't know what I'm talking about.

Good God, this post proves VB right... the sex people must be with the sex people.

If we were lesbians, you and me, RW, we would be horrible sexual partners to each other. We view sex differently and we feel differently about it. I am offended by the idea of "keeping it in his pants", "keeping her legs shut", "she should just put out" etc because it trivializes something that is so much more than any of that... to me. I know there are people who view it differently.

You and I are never going to agree on these things because we view sex differently. To me, it is the act of physically expressing a connection between me and my lover. It is a dance, an experience of souls being playful and laughter and the glow in his eyes and the gentleness of my touch... To you... what is it? You talk a lot about you didn't take care of his needs...

But if you simply don't see sex in the same way I do... can you ever meet a real sex person's need for that connected intimacy as a non-sex person? I mean that as respectfully as I can muster, simply as a delineation between someone who sees sex as I do and someone who does not understand that. We are wired different.

Huh.

RRRW, When you talk about sex with your husband it does sound like it is a responsibility not an amazing, intimate experience that your both love to partake in. You see "sex people" truly live for that connection with another person. We know if someone is going through the motions to please us. That is why I feel it is so important to keep it between the two people who share it. Sexual intimacy is a spiritual journey not a duty. This may be a conversation you have with your husband, SOON! I apologize for being harsh, I just know how painful a sexless marriage can be and wanting that connection and not getting it feels like a slow death.

Kelki. How on earth do you read from my comments and come to the conclusion that I feel sex is a responsibility and not to be enjoyed? I have stated that I do have desire and arousal now like I did when I was 18. Even when I had sex with him before there were times I was not into it, but there were many times I was there full of intimacy, connection and love.

If my husband hadn't had an affair it would have been able to be kept between two people. Since he did and decided to continue and didn't think he would get caught by anyone else or that she would ever tell anyone he made it between her husband, me, her and him and on top of that everyone at their work already knew about it. He and she are the ones that made it everybody else's business not me.

I get where you come from as far as the pain of a sexless marriage and reference to being a slow death. I totally get what you are saying and although I do not fully know from my own personal refusal I do see what I've done to my husband and how I've crushed his soul over the years. So I get it as much as humanly possible. IMO.

I don't really like the reference to a sex person and not a sex person, I know what y'all are saying, but I don't see my self as a non sex person especially now. All I needed was a little help in the T levels and some work on my self image and sexual confidence. I was or did consider myself to enjoy sex and did have desire before marriage and birth control. I think some of the not a sex person can be a sex person with a little help in whatever area they need it. There are Some people I'm sure that are flat out non- sexual. Majority of the time when we had sex I enjoyed it the couple of times a month we did do it. So does that mean I am a sex person or not a sex person? Confusing. Some of the refusers out there may be sex people they just need a little help, but the refused has it in their mind that they are just not a sexual person and that is the way it's going to be. Maybe your refuser wants that help, maybe they don't want to be considered not a sex person. Just something to think about.

Addicts don't want to be considered addicts and yet they are. Liars don't want to be considered liars and yet they are.

You talk about "when we did it I did enjoy it." I have never thought of sex in that way. I know this may be hard for you to believe if you've never thought of sex in this way... but to me it is essential and magical and connected and intimate and I am 100% free, without inhibitions about my body or my mind or anything else during sex. There's a switch in my head that makes everything from the day go silent and sex isn't enjoyable, it's life affirming.

Being a sex person LIKE THAT, like I describe, is a different way of being. That kind of sex person should be with That kind of sex person for best experience. If you are the kind of woman who enjoys sex once you have it but you don't/didn't miss it when you didn't have it before then I don't put you in the same column as me. Now, that is not me saying I am better than you. In many ways my expectations of sexual experience are going to be different than yours and I may have a harder time finding someone comfortable being that open with me. But that is why it is essential for me to find someone compatible. My range of acceptable compatibility is more narrow than most people. I have expectations of what sex will be like and if it doesn't meet those pretty regularly it does not feel good to me at all.

I hear you being defensive about whether or not you like sex. That is NOT the kind of "sex person"/"non-sex person" delineation meant here.

And the refused here do not have it in their mind that someone is not a sex person. They only arrive here after generally years of believing its because they are awful or bad in bed or unattractive. They usually arrive here believing they are unlovable, not that there is something wrong with the compatibility between the spouses in the bedroom.

Incidentally, this thread is an example of a distraction from the issues in YOUR marriage that still exist that I referenced earlier. You have daily sex with your H now but he still isn't satisfied. The question really should be whether or not he ever will be and if so, by what?

I'm not quit sure what you first line comments mean I don't know if you are saying I'm lying again or what.

It is great that you have been blessed with an apparent health sexual image and have been able to throw a switch and turn the world off and tune everything out. What I wouldn't have given to be able to have done that. I am a worrier by nature so that is not or was not easy for me to do in the past when I did have young children and 15 things to do in a night before I put them to bed. Once I got in the bed my mind would not stop the wheels would keep clicking about what had to be done in the morning, who needed lunch money or book money, what I forgot to do before I laid down and then on top of that I worried myself to death that my girls might hear us if we did do it. I know it was stupid but that is how it was for me. All of this on top of no libido, no immediate arousal, no desire and exhaustion. Sometimes even a little resentment because I did everything supper, dishes, kids needs and he sat in the chair until he was ready for play time with me. It just seemed like sometimes there was no consideration for my feelings too, just like he felt.

Well, I don't put us in the same sexual thinking or feeling category either. Because I didn't have the desire or need for sex that often. I did want it and usually I was on a 10 day to 2 week cycle kind of. I did want it at times but certainly not like he did. Once I started with the testosterone cream I am now a different person who actual has feelings in the lady's parts when I see him naked, and I actually look, never did look before, shoot never looked at myself to embarrassed. I have feelings where I should down there at the sound of his voice and the immediate thought of sex. Imagine not having that, it makes a huge difference. I can't explain the difference the higher t level has made for me. Plus I also know I have had a huge attitude adjustment. The T cream alone may have very well changed my marriage before the affair if I had gotten it. I really believe it would have made a difference enough that he would have been happy and i would have enjoyed sex much more because of the arousal and desire i experienced after getting my T levels up. I would have been able to respond genuinely to him and pretty much at his first touch. I am sure I would not have experienced such a drastic change or difference like I have because of all we've been through. I know I have learned many valuable lessons through this process and I have grown. I'm not naive enough to think that the Testosterone level would have made everything perfect, but it would have went a long way. By the way, just FYI, I do miss sex now when we are not having it very often :-) that is a good thing, I think,me missing it. We have our ups and downs and your not really into sex sometimes on the downs although I think I am even on the downs, I'm available if he is.

I do understand also the thought process of a refused person that would think what is wrong with me, why don't they love me, or something is wrong with me. Of course, we know that it's not just something wrong with the refused, it's the refuser and many other elements of a relationship that contribute to this dysfunction.

You keep mentioning the distraction from the issues in my marriage and what you referenced earlier. I did respond to that and tried to explain some of our history. I'm sure that one of the many questions regarding our marriage is will he ever be satisfied with me again. I have to think about this all of the time. I am terribly paranoid about this and when there is another woman it makes it 1000x worse because you question how she is vs how you are and what he thinks. He may not ever be satisfied and it will hurt me terribly, but if that is the truth of this matter then I will have to accept that. Thanks for reminding me. I'm doing my best and that is all I can do at this point.

My point, RRRW, by saying that he isn't satisfied is that you are doing everything he's ever asked of you and far more than would satisfy 95% of us here and still he isn't satisfied. I don't mean that she is better than you in bed. What I mean is that maybe he is not able to be satisfied or may not be fully clear about WHAT exactly he wants. He said sex but now has sex and still isn't satisfied. I am saying maybe there are more problems here that are HIS and not yours to own or work on.

I truly believe he doesn't know what he wants. Nothing is satisfying him or making him happy. He needs to be happy with himself again and he's not there yet. It seems like in the last little bit he's been trying harder and been better. I just hope it can continue to improve. It is his to work on I agree. Thx

" it seems to me that you have taken responsibility (which most people don't do after an affair, especially if they were the one cheated on). You have also made great efforts, from what you said, to make things right in your marriage."

If she has taken responsibility and made great efforts for her husband's affair then why is her focus on HER pain instead of the pain he felt by rejection? If she made great efforts to fix things in her marriage then now she should have a healthy, happy and intimate marriage and therefore she would have a clear understanding between what that is like and what the sh*thole marriages that are abusive are described here and therefore realize that those refuser spouses are still abusive, neglectful, selfish and not getting it.

One of the things I learned by leaving my SM is that you don't take someone's words alone and take them as gospel as you are doing here. You look at their actions. A person that was truly taking as much responsibility as she claims and truly working as hard on her marriage would not post a story like this. She says she understands why her husband cheated... but this story proves to me she really does not.

probably should have posted your as a story but , it gives this thread a new spin. Thanks for sharing.

The bad news is, you ARE cheating, even though you tippy toe around it trying to define the definition to your liking without realizing it.

Nothing "wrong" with it. (That would be judgement, which has no place in these situations). Don't "judge" yourself too harshly. You are doing what you think to be right based on your life and circumstances and time will tell IF it works out enough for all involved.

The fact that your husband actively sought out affairs and you fell into one, has no difference. You are BOT mismatched with each other. Having NO kids, you probably would have divorced. But, having kids, you do what you can based on your unique circumstances.

One thing early on in your story, is that YOUR life, lacks balance. You need to develop "Boundaries" for yourself and quit working your life away. Reprioritize you biz and your life, you can still seek abundance and a comfortable living and established biz but, "don't seek your identity in it" and find another way to do it. Also, you would be suprised what happens inyour life when you "let go" a little bit(maybe starting with the things to be done in the household and your expectations) Eventually, hubby or someone will step in to fill te void IF you persist. (yeah, there will be a transition period to sit on your hands and bit your tongue).

Throughout your story, you paint yourself as "less wrong" too. You do that to help justify and accept it within yourself.

Both you and your husband are seeking fulfillment outside of yourselves and also, outside of the marriage. The fulfillment you seek comes from within you and IF you stopped being so busy and searched around within yourself and asked yourself the hard questions, you will find more to yourself than you realized.

You found a "more compatable lover, kindred spirit", you SEE your future there in that but, you forsake your "present". Life if now...in this moment.

You already decided within yourself upon divorce(and it sounds like a great idea) and you have your timeframe to lessen the blow to the kids and such.

Kudos! Because thats where we are all mostly at. You will be out within a few years probably. Keep building what you found and keep letting go of what you had.

Glad to have you here, stick around and keep sharing.

Also, just out of curiosity, How do you think your kids would feel and be affected if say, you got caught in an affair before you were able to get out?

Is it any of their concern?

Does it change who mom or dad is?

Does it change any of mom or dad's "love" for the children?

And IF they never found out and eventually you divorced?

Life,
people are mad at RRRW because she is showing them a mirror and guilty people do not like to see themselves in the mirror.

Change,
I see that on this blog there is compassion and empathy for only the refused but not for the refuser no matter what happened in their life and what they went through. What a hypocrisy.
RRRW, I commend you for speaking the truth and sharing your story. You have accepted full responsibility for your actions and have amended for it. I am just waiting for a refused person to take responsibility for their cheating/affairs. However, I do not expect that because they are too engrossed and self obsessed with their life to care about anyone else.

Cheater12,

You choose what you want to see. There is and has been compassion and there are efforts to provide understanding. Your every comment has been a judgement. RRRW asked why and the complexity of the why was provided. Whether it is accepted and understood or not is up to her. You apparently have no interest in they complex interpersonal dynamics. That is your prerogative. However, I am betting RRRW has garnered useful information.

Kelki. I know you don't know the story you haven't read it in my other posts, but I didn't not out my husband! Once I found out I held it and didn't tell anyone. I didn't want to tell anyone I didn't want anyone to know simply because our families and a lot of people loved and respected my husband had him on a pedestal and I didn't want them to know or think any less of him. Her husband outed them when he found out I didn't! I didn't. I wanted to keep it a secret between him, her and me and I dealt with it for a good while all by myself. When someone left a message on the other husbands phone that his wife was having an affair with my husband that's how it came out. It came all out. That's when I went to bat for my husband I did not out him I have to much respect and love for him than to do that and I love my family to much to do that to them.

You might want to ask how it came out first rather than assuming but that's okay.

C12, you say you are a member here under another name but apparently you aren't willing to post these thoughts under that anonymous pseudonym. Over and over you have seen what you wanted to see in our posts. I am one of the ones here who does have compassion for refusers. I have compassion and empathy for RRRW and what she has been through but I don't agree with the way she's gone about posting here.

I did not cheat. I do not feel guilty, as I did not cheat. So why, in your mind, do I disagree with what she says?

And C12, when you said this "I am just waiting for a refused person to take responsibility for their cheating/affairs. However, I do not expect that because they are too engrossed and self obsessed with their life to care about anyone else." my mind instantly thought of a half dozen people here who DO take responsibility for their outsourcing as how they have responded to the situation in their marriage. I can't think of one who would say that they would have cheated if it had not been for the SM but I can think of plenty who have said "this is the choice I made in handling my relationship and I take responsibility for my choice." For many in their unique situations they would say it was better than breaking up a family, leaving an ill spouse, leaving during bankruptcy etc. Everyone's situation is unique and to think that you believe you have the answer for everyone is laughable at the very best.

Cheater: "people are mad at RRRW because she is showing them a mirror and guilty people do not like to see themselves in the mirror."

The people who are MOST mad at RRRW are the ones who have NOT CHEATED. All I see on this thread are that those who have chosen to "outsource" are the ones who are the most calm, reflective, and moderate in their answers to RRRW. Those of us who have NOT outsources are MORALLY OUTRAGED at her judgmental attitude - and yours is 1,000x worse.

To state that the "worst thing you can do is cheat" is simplistic, self-aggrandising bullsh*t of the worst order. There are MANY MANY things FAR WORSE than cheating on a spouse in a relationship.

Hence all the "**** you"s LOL

-----" I am just waiting for a refused person to take responsibility for their cheating/affairs."

C12: then you are blatantly ignoring those who stepped up to the plate and DID take responsibility for our behavior. A few of us did BEFORE we took that step. zsuzsilowinger is spot on: the outrage is coming from those who have NOT stepped out. You claimed you have been reading these stories on here since June 2012 but it is painfully obvious from a macroview, by some of the claims you have made about the supposed counsel the majority is doing (just get a divorce or have an affair) that you are simply not up to speed with respect to what is being offered as advice on this forum.

"If they LOVED you they would freakin' screw you."

lol EVEN if they didn't love you they would screw you, if they weren't so unilaterally passive aggressively "broken".

Why don't we shift this WHOLE story from sex to even the slightest kindness, acknowledgement or a "touch on the shoulder" even once a week??

NICE!!

slightly OT, but also somewhat relevant. It surprises me when now in the dating world a man is sexually interested in me on first meeting. Are you kidding??? Amazing! No, they don't have to love you and they'll gladly have sex with you and, for their own reasons, they will even make damn sure you enjoy it. Huh. :-)

Don't add a different perspective Change, I am fine with this one for now. lol (just kiddin')........... I know....I know...............ugh..........sick of it all.

Awake and Scotty I am starting to have to accept this as truth but I really don't want to.
I want to be with my wife. I want my wife to want to be with me but if she doesn't then there is no reason to keep trying, the pain is too great.

"'how could someone have an affair and destroy the lives of their family'."

I love this quote earlier in the story.

The "affair" doesn't destroy the family, the "**** marriage" destroys the family.

IF the couple in a sexless marriage kept the years of refusal , abuse and neglect quiet(which ended the marriage), then why can't the refuser kept the affair quiet and just file for divorce.

Do guns kill people or do people kill people?

The refuser's end game is always the same, to secure the role of victmhood, to be 51% more right, even at the expense of the children involved by broadcasting a tar-feathering to displace the blame/guilt or the refuser's own actions from themselves.

IF the marriage remained faithful and ended in divorce.

IF the marriage involved cheating and ended in divorce.

the kids deal with the impact of divorce anyway, the ONLY degree of change is in the refuser's secured victimhood at the expense of the child.

and IF the refuser used the "cheater card" anyways even if the refused remained faithful, what difference would the refused faithfulness have made?

I often wonder why we don't out them as sexless abusers in the divorce process. Most people don't hesitate to out the other as having had an affair, even during the marriage and if "trying to work on it". I think because the SM makes us feel horrible about ourselves whereas an affair seems more like "all their fault". The whole "cheating is never the answer" line we hear so often from the black and white, can't see any shades of gray (let alone 50) crowd.

ImtoSexy. Our marriage is not as traumatic or in drama now, but it takes a lot of heeling and opening up and forgiving to get through this, both of us. It is still day by day feelings still somewhat raw. I'm still trying to get my husband to forgive me so we can move on into the future and for him to trust me to take care of him. I will take care of him no doubt whatever it takes, if I fail again, I know I'm out. I'm not going to fail though I have so much more knowledge and a list of helpful suggestions lined up just in case I need help. I'll do anything it takes counseling, supplements, sex therapy whatever. I will not fail this man again. Right now I have desire and drive so its so much easier to show your love. Energy or not, tired or not, I can respond with a libido. I had nothing before.

The rejection of your husband has messed with your mind for sure. I know I messed up my husbands mind it wears on you and drags you down. It's hard for someone one with a healthy desire to understand why their partner doesn't want it, want them. You are not engaged in rational thinking in my opinion when going into an affair or considering one, or some are not let me say, I don't think my husband was rationally thinking at all I know him to well, so I get what you mean about that.

You were very strong to resist temptation and I'm so glad to hear you are doing okay now and I hope it continues to be more than okay for you. God Bless You and Your Marriage

Scottysdad, i'm not sure that the refuser is the one acting like the victim. When you read about how miserable the refused are, they sound more like the ones who hold that position.

RW I am glad to see you empathize with her so vulnerably. Thanks for that.

Scottysdad. I agree with your statement that rejection and refusal is part of the reason a marriage fails. Sometimes it's all that and sometimes it's not, but the refuser and the spouse that goes outside if the marriage have a hand in the demise of a marriage.

I am sure that many claim the role of victimhood and spread bad terrible rumors and shares details that should not be shared, but I do not feel the victim here and I have not shared or smeared his name in anyway. If I live him that would be stupid to do that and I love him.. Even if he decides to leave me I will never bash him and will always stand up for him. I don't believe in hurting anyone anymore that you can help, especially when you are fully aware of a situation. If you know better you can do better. I don't believe in hurting the kids and if their dad has been a wonderful loving father all of his life and good to his kids like mine has there is no way I could bad talk him. If you could ask anyone in my life that I have talked to about this they would tell you have have stuck by his side, never bad mouthed or talked down about him and mostly took up for him. Don't get me wrong, I shared my pain and anger and all other emotions with one very close friend who loves my husband like a brother and if I did say something she would usually take up for him. Everyone needs someone to talk to.

CWDMG. There are many shades a gray I agree it's not all black and white.

"There is no right cookie , just pick one , and take a bite ".

Not sure I agree with this statement and it's what kept me stuck in a relationship that is/was wrong, wrong, wrong for me for for FAR too long.

I agree with what you are saying. I am saying this from the view point that too many think that there is a perfect partner.
I am saying that, you only know what you know , and you have to chose whether to make the best of it.
No one knows what they are getting into. We can only hope that it turns out to be all that we hoped for. I can only speak from my own frame of reference, like all of us here.
When i say that there is no right cookie , i don't mean that you can't spit it out.
I just mean that we all take a chance , hope for the best, hang in as long as we can, and hopefully, live a life that we are "mostly "happy with. Nothing is perfect. I am very sorry, if i upset you in anyway, this was not my intention.

No, not upset. ;) Just talking with you.

No one here is asking for perfect. OMG, we are not asking for perfect. We may be asking (or some of us hopefully, demanding) not abusive, not disrespectful, not intimacy averse at this point.

We will never get PERFECT, and we do not have to settle for less.
Any SM is already in a lot of trouble, but secrets can make it worse.

I do not know about the RRRW but what I want from this forum to stop cheering for people who cheat just because it reduces our guilt for a moment because we think that we may not be wrong as others are also doing it. However, affairs/chatting never bring the enduring love and care we all want from our marriage. It just masks it for a moment but in the long run, the pain and the hurt increases. And yes I am speaking from my own experience.

C12, first of all - the majority of us are not cheering the act of having an affair. We are cheering the act of doing something different, of making a step, any step towards putting themselves and their needs first. It usually is the first step towards divorce or some other progress in the person's life. I would estimate that not even 50% here are outsourcing. And of those quite a few are doing it openly, so also not cheating. If that leaves, say 70% of us who arent cheering each other on because we are trying to feel less guilt because others do it too... Then why do those people see that step in a positive light? They aren't outsourcing so have NO GUILT. Why don't you post a story about you so we can get to know you and your story. Otherwise you seem like a troll.

Change is spot on. The affair is not about the sex. It is often about someone, the refused party, finally putting his or her needs first, after being a doormat for a long time. That said, many of us, myself included, find the outsourcing pleasure to be short-lived, but it often does give one the initial confidence to do other important things to take better care of ourselves.

Change, there is nothing much to our story. Me and my husband are having intimacy issues for couple of years. When i couldn't take it any more, One day we just talked about it and finally decided to go for therapy. We are both committed to our relationship and have not cheated with each other. This is the only reason that is keeping door open for renewed intimacy and hope for future. Any cheating/affair and the door is shut.
I do agree with you that a gridlock never fixes anything, so, it has to be broken. I do agree with the concept of movement but the change or movement can not be just anything. Change can be discussion, therapy, threatening to leave, open marriage and divorce. But all these takes courage. On the other hand, affairs do not need courage. It is just giving in to your urges. What annoys me is that why the majority of respondents in this blog see affairs as the easiest and convenient way forward and support that instead of guiding people to other means that I mentioned.

"On the other hand, affairs do not need courage. It is just giving in to your urges. What annoys me is that why the majority of respondents in this blog see affairs as the easiest and convenient way forward and support that instead of guiding people to other means that I mentioned."

That is what you choose to see. We caution each other of the dangers of outsourcing, of how it does not solve the problem within the marriage, of how it leads to more problems and it sometimes makes things worse over the long term. We also advise that those who are going to outsource MUST have an exit plan ready at a moment's notice. But when/if they do so, we also don't judge them.

"On the other hand, affairs do not need courage. It is just giving in to your urges."

Yes, truly you are an EXPERT, having neither had an affair nor a spouse who had an affair.

"What annoys me is that why the majority of respondents in this blog see affairs as the easiest and convenient way forward and support that"

Are you fcking BLIND???? Where the h*ll did you read that?ABSOLUTELY NOONE supports ONLY affairs on this forum, and NOONE -I mean NOONE- has said affairs were EASY OR CONVENIENT - NOONE.

I have been reading this forum for well over a year, hundreds or thousands of stories, and you are WAY off base. DELUSIONAL.

And affairs require a great deal of courage. It is not so simple as "ooh shiny object, I'm going to go get naked with that." There is grieving involved in realizing that your marriage is so far gone that you are considering stepping out. The idea that these people here are morally or ethically less than you is short-sighted and judgmental.

-----". What annoys me is that why the majority of respondents in this blog see affairs as the easiest and convenient way forward and support that instead of guiding people to other means that I mentioned."

This is a totally false assertion. I do not have hard statistics to back up what I am going to say, but I started reading stories here in Dec 2009 and have read over 90% of the stories posted on this forum and I would say that less than 5% just fire off a "just have an affair". Most urge therapy, talk, and the guts to face the situation head on in a realistic manner. The majority WARN people that affairs are only a temporary solution to a permanent problem and that an affair need to be carefully considered under risk management. Many support formation of a contingency plan in case it all goes to **** (because most who land here are on the last leg of marital dysfunction as this is a self selecting group and tends to attract those who have tried everything else - many have been in therapy for years as noted in stories - and are here as a last resort).

Your assertion has no credibility from the macroview.

Nope not what I want thanks for trying though

Oceansun. I really did not feel my husband slipping away at all. He always was laughing, cutting up, happy it seemed, no one thought he was miserable. Our daughter got engaged in Sept of 2009 and I really believe it set all of this in motion, understand I'm saying set it in motion not the reason for it but I think it was part of it. I think he saw the future and our girls getting older and leaving and he didn't want to be stuck in a somewhat SM. He was getting ready to retire or he could anytime and our other daughter was a senior in high school. All this came flooding in on him and he had just gotten a supervisors position a couple of years before where he went up to the main office and the, Sorry can't help it I know this is gonna get me in trouble, Snake in the Grass, lay waiting to strike. She had been flirting with him the whole time from day one trying to lay into him with her venomous bite. I know this will offend and I'm sorry, this woman is a repeat, repeat, repeat offender. She knew what she was doing she admitted to me she went after him and that he would have never started this. She had childhood issues lost her dad early in life and I thinks she was and does act out because of that. I told her she needed help and she never denied it. Don't get me wrong my husband kept going by the snake until he got bit. He's just as guilty as her and more so in my view. I know, I have to work on my feelings about her I know God expects me to forgive her and I will get there someday, just not now.

Got off track, I didn't know anything until the blow up night. I did think I could loose him and I loved him deeply and yes I did act off of the blow up. Don't get me wrong I knew he wanted more from me I did not know the impact it had on him though. I am not asking you to understand, but this is the way it was.

I do realize where his anger stemmed from and what it was all about. I didn't come here to hurt anyone I had no intentions of hurting you or anyone else I would have never posted this if I had know and that is the truth. Last night I said and thought I would delete this today. I had written an apology and wanted to make sure everyone that I hurt or offended to see. Once I got back on here I saw all of the conversations and discuss being had and thought how could this be so bad surely each one of can get something from all of this. I know I have. I didn't mean to do this at anyone expense though. I am not condemning anyone for their choices. I don't walk in your shoes and I am really a kind non judgment person, but I messed up big time here for some of you. Please accept my sincere apology.

LOL, I just said to my H, "look at least give me the decency, as the mother of your 2 children, just admit it that's it's over, don't keep me hanging on, please just call it what it is" and he said "if that's what you want".
Yup he loves me so much and is running out of ways to show it.
So yes **** YOU

Ocean, I am sorry. :-(

oh and just in case you're wondering, dear readers, my h is one of the mean spirited punishing PA refusers.

and no, though extremely tempted, i haven't had an affair. though i make no judgment on those who have.

until you've lived our hell for years and decades, you have NO CLUE the pain involved.

Smithy8015 I agree with what you say on both above comments. I am so sorry that you have been in an awful situation with a mean spirited refuser. I am sincere in saying this and you are right I don't know and haven't suffered like many of you have.

We are all human and make mistakes. Guilt comes from knowing the fact that what I did was wrong. Our actions , that produces guilt, cannot simply be justified just because we were hurt or angered or were in pain for long time. There are two Ways to deal with our guilt. The first method is remorse and making amend that RRRW is following and I really commend her for that. The second method is to continue to justify our wrong doing by continue to come up with absurd logic/arguments/ throwing anger and hurt at others. I am pained to see that most of the folks in this forum continue to take the second method and hope that this will reduce their pain or guilt knowing wholeheartedly that it never happens. Just because few more people can join this forum and support our actions does not fix the main issue of guilt knowing that I did something wrong, no matter whatever the underlying reason was.

raveu, did you READ what i wrote?!?

apparently not. you just decided to spout more of your condemnatory stuff at folks who *already* feel guilt & incredible inhuman amounts of pain.

good on ya that you can be so judgmental.

"Guilt comes from knowing the fact that what I did was wrong. "

Guilt is NOT derived from "fact". Guilt is derived from perspective.

Even misguided perspective such as a woman date-raped feels guilt that she did something wrong or the children of divorcing parents who never cheated feel guilt that they are some how to blame.

Blame is cast outward.

Guilt is cast inward.

Both are improper judging.

Just as early on, a refused typically feels guilt that they are some how not worthy or have done something wrong to be at the hand of emotional, psychological and sexual abuse of which they don't recognize as abuse at the time.

IF we change the topic from abuse of a refuser in a sexless marriage to a different abuse in a different scenario, many of you if not all, would be arguing the opposite point of which you are right now, right here.

Well said...and thanks

C12 - the other option is to choose not to feel guilty about it. Do not assume that others feel guilt about the same things you do.

I believe that refusers can't wrap their head around our mentality and behaviors and more or less than we can theirs. We are all just hardwired different and at the core of the refuser/refused relationship it will always be "mismatched". She does the best she can with the way she can, just as we do the best we can with the best ability to understand them....and somehow, we never will. It is what it is....until it isn't...and then....it is what it is.

Zsu, last year I was in Hawaii on a remote area with active volcanoes. The signs around all said "area closed - keep away" and a second sign underneath that said "unstable cliffs may collapse - frequent high winds & waves".

My friend and I had met this young (way young) honeymooning couple a few times on the trip. We came to one of those signs and what do we see... but they have climbed out to the very edge of these cliffs with the huge waves and the high winds to take photographs. so instead we photographed them, just in case they did not return and their relatives wanted to know what happened. We also captured a picture of one of the warning signs in the foreground because they seemed like the types that would sue the government for not putting up enough warnings or - god forbid - hand rails around the volcanic cliffs. It's the same thing...

refuser says "area closed - keep away" (no sex) - the refused responds "unstable cliffs (the dysfunctional marriage) may collapse - frequent high winds & waves (you may not see it coming)". And who is to blame if the refuser keeps climbing out there on the cliffs?

I love Hawaii.

You are right....that it ALL points to "connection" or "lack of it", much more than sex or an affair. No matter, refuser or refused, raising consciousness is the end goal for everyone. Finding happiness from within instead of anything "eternal" and tapping the consciousness of being and source or connection within. Staying, cheating or leaving are all still chasing external happiness but, we do and choose the best we can with what we know and where we are at the time. On the level of thought and on the level of emotions, we are all still far from consciousness. Hurt ...in ANY result, eventually is to be transcended by any and all parties involved. But, then again, we are all one. As one person, refused or refuser, raises their level little by little, there is still a vibrational pull for the other partner to raise their level too. They both evolve.
Staying together still optional.

"But, then again, we are all one" if only for those words I could find the most beautiful wisdom that many of us may wish to be able to touch one day.Thank you!

Scottysdad. I like

Your logic is like a thief saying that he/she would not be hold responsible for the burglary because they will not become thief if the society had provided them enough. This is no argument and will stand in any court of law or morality. You are free to separate/divorce and find your happiness somewhere else.

As you are free to out source your needs, to speak your mind, have an opinion and free to **** off as well

@C12 how moral is the refusing spouse in a marriage? I'm talking about morality as in right and wrong behaviours to other human beings. Not the 10 deadly sins religious version.

C12, your logic is like saying that you will not be held responsible if you withhold food and water from your family and refuse to take care of their basic needs and refuse to let them go elsewhere to get those needs met. At some point they will have to take care of their needs, since you chose not to... if you do not love your spouse (and sexual anorexia that you force upon them is definitely unloving), why not divorce them before you torture them? should they leave you??? HELL YEAH. They should. But maybe they believe in love and the vows they made and their promise to only have you be the one that takes care of those needs. You know... the ones you now REFUSE to let them meet - with you or elsewhere.

"Your logic is like a thief saying that he/she would not be hold responsible for the burglary because they will not become thief if the society had provided them enough. This is no argument and will stand in any court of law or morality. "

I don't know about YOUR morality, but in MY country, h*ll YES you can say society had not provided, and get some rehabilitation or second chances rather than being thrown with hardened criminals for minor offences like stealing! WTF country do you live in that won't have MERCY for those who have been deprived? I bet you'd cut off the hands of those who steal a loaf of bread to feed their starving children rather than show MERCY.

So you are saying to your spouse "honey I love you enough not to divorce but cheat" . Did everyone ask their spouse that before going for outsourcing. I am not preaching anyone to stay in SM because we said "till death do us apart" but I do not believe the solution is to have an affair. Affairs only delay the problem but makes it even worse. Before the affair Probably only the refuser had the guilt and the refused was in pain and anger. after the affair, now both refuser and refused are living with anger, rage and guilt. How is making the problem worse can be a solution to anything.
No I have never supported the refuser for their behavior specially if it is intentional and without any medical reasons.

Stay, Immorality from others does not justify us leaving generally universal accepted morality and values.

I do live in the most free country of the world "US" and no I am not a religious bigot. I am only spiritual. I do believe in rehabilitation and second chance but that is called "divorce and remarriage". Affairs are not rehabilitation. It is more like a second immoral act to justify refusers first immoral act

"leaving generally universal accepted"

Never leaving that would still have us with a lack of civil rights in all areas and a ton more wars.

@c12. This is where we agree to disagree. My value system is based on raising children with a mother and father in a comfortable home in a nice neighbourhood. That would be very difficult if we split. Yes I'm outsourcing but only after a decade of very infrequent vanilla sex.

"So you are saying to your spouse "honey I love you enough not to divorce but cheat" . Did everyone ask their spouse that before going for outsourcing. "

Plenty have. DanteBurning2, mvcmvc are two that come to mind... apocrypha in their own way did something similar if not more extreme. And no, it's not "I love you enough to... anything." It's "we have kids, you're sick and I won't leave you while you're sick, if I leave (s)he can't work and I promised to care for them, I am disabled and stuck etc". At that point the marriage is so broken down it is no longer about love. But many marriages in the world are not about love.

And by "not about love" I mean not about the marital kind of love and intimacy that should be in marriage. There are plenty of marriages here - MaryRyan as a perfect example - where she truly, truly loves her husband in that "he is my companion and my friend way" and is nurturing him through illness. She won't leave because of it, but the marriage was sexless for decades before the illness. It's a different kind of love and that's okay. It's like how I wouldn't leave a friend in need. I might not marry them but for many of us at that point we already have.

-----" "honey I love you enough not to divorce but cheat" . Did everyone ask their spouse that before going for outsourcing."

I did. I have been in a parallel sexual relationship for 3 years now (I have been married for almost 7 years now the marriage is strictly platonic). My husband is complict in the deal. I notified him BEFORE I got back with my old lover that I would no longer live without intimacy. That gave him the option of either 1. Stepping up and getting renengaged with me or 2. Accepting, without complain the paradigm shift whereas I released both of us fron the bonds of sexual exclusivity or 3. Divorce me. I travel for weeks at a time with my lover while my husband stays at home and cares for our home and pets. We are roommates and responsible financial partners who get along well. I am living this scenario. It can work. It is rare but it can work.

I only owe ONE person on this earth an explanation about my sexual behavior - that would be my spouse. I have discharged my responsibilies as a spouse and he is satisfied with the current arrangement. I have no concern about what anyone else outside my spouse and I feel about our arrangement. I live as I see fit.

As you should, mvc. You no longer owe him any explanation either. He forfeited those rights when he accepted the deal.

Change - yes you are correct. I discharged my responsibilities by the notification - no details are ever discusses. I sleep well at night with no guilt.

Stays and cheat. Refusing behavior is immoral it is wrong it is hurtful and shameful.

mvcmvc,
I do not call it cheating if your H is aware off it and has agreed to it. However, what about the spouse/family of your lover? Is he single? Is his family ok with your arraingements.

Who knew religion could be so multifaceted? I wonder if there is anything in there about cookies, as I find myself in a "Cookieless Marriage" also, lol Could I get that recipe oceansun?

are you mocking me?

Oceans in your are right I read that passage with so much more understand and conviction and do take it very seriously. I have a lot a guilt over the past and they way I treated my husband. I know I was wrong and have admitted that to the 2 most important ones that count, God and my husband. I've admitted to my husband that I failed him as a wife, a Christian wife. God knows the truth and how I was and how he was. I have prayed to God that you know me, my heart and you know my husbands heart and to please put the blame on my shoulders squarely were it belongs. I truly know my sins and how I failed. Believe me I know.

You don't have to explain to me, tell me you are making it right.
And remember not to judge others, not when you are with out sin.
Your comments, or rather "questions are very judgmental, and these people have hurt enough, YOU TRUST ME.
So you want to be open minded and learn why we respond in certain ways or why we cheer each other on, then read and you'll see why.
Don't talk, read!

I do agree with this. however, i know although that all of you hate me for saying the truth in other matters.

That probably means "no wanking". Brrr.

"Blaming" (even yourself) is still judging. When you judge, you create polarities which then create separation. Everything just "is as it is" ...stop living in the past and stop trying to identify yourself or your marriage thru the past.

LOL I'll share with you my recipe for cookies LOL
How are you? I read some where that you found a lover,
wanted to "congratulate you" btw.
LMAO
I'd also like to say to the OP: God doesn't like divorce.
but he doesn't like suicide either,
and I am religious and while I may not cheat on my H,
I have had those thoughts, so.....
**** you again.

ROTFLMAO!

OS, you have a great sense of humour ;)

Why finally divorce? We thought you were happy just having affairs.

C12 said "Why finally divorce? We thought you were happy just having affairs."

And see, this is how I know you are just a troll. Because you are simply MAKING **** UP at this point. No one here is ever "happy just having affairs". Ever. What we keep saying but you keep refusing to hear is that many times the affair is the springboard to some change in their way of viewing things that lets them leave the marriage.

Absolutely. If we are hurt, does not mena that our hurt will become less by hurting others by getting in affairs. Where is the end of it. Someday, Newt Gingritch can say that he cheated on his sic wife because he was not getting it and that will make it justify.

I love how you just opened an account cause:
A you are a coward,
B you are an idiot
or C both of the above
go troll another site, I'm done with you.

You're a happy person aren't you!

I am a ray of sunshine just ask around.

Being married to someone who wont have sex with you is stupid. Either you fix this or leave, there's really only two options, sure you could stay and cheat but that's just pointless.

I don't know exact situations, could you be so trapped there was no other choice, sure I guess, I'm just saying that instead of letting a dead cat sit on the floor people should go about tossing it out burying it and or get it to spend one of it's nine lives and revive itself.

Open marriages could be an option if both people agree but many times the person denying the sex simply wants the cheating to happen to lessen their guilt at wanting out, it's a move to control.

So you have to face it head on and figure it out and you have to be willing to leave to have any hope of getting past it other than divorce.

Who are you talking to?

raves. I like what you said above about choosing not to cheat and putting it back in their laps, or our laps. I agree with you. If somethings there and there is still love then you'll both fight to make it work. My husband wishes he had put his foot down a long time ago and so do I. I literally hate this is what it took to wake me up and that he had to go to such lengths to get my attention. For this I am forever sorry and ashamed.

So had had he never cheated, you wouldn't have understood?
So how many times has he implored or your understanding?
I think him cheating was the best thing he did, I'm sorry, but if you two can survive this, you are truly Blessed.

Oceansun. In my very first story and many other comments throughout I have said that it did not take an affair. I know some of you won't believe that. When this started in Dec of 2009 my husband just blew up one night and let me have it no holes barred. (He blew up because he had acted on the affair by now- I didn't know it though) I started scrambling for help I didn't want to loose my husband I didn't know he had started an affair. I did not know there was another woman involved until March of 2010. Stupid me never dreamed it, I trusted him totally. In Late Dec. He told me later after all of this came out that he tried to stop but couldn't. I think they tried many times to quit. I have heard it can be very addictive I'm sure it is and i know why. Here's the thing from Dec on we did it almost every night and some mornings this was before I knew there was another woman. This threw a whole different spin on things for him. He he was having an affair and he treated me really bad trying to make me go away I guess, but instead I finally had turned a corner and was changing. It made it worse because he was thinking you waited til now to do this after I've started this affair. He was freaked out and confused by my actions. Angry at me to I'm sure. So here it is he's waited all his life for this "change" and it finally happens and he was in a mess. You all will appreciate this, he had sex those six months more than a years worth I'm sure. We were doing it in the morning, he had her at lunch and then me at night. He was getting his 3 a day many, many days. Even after I found out about her I just kept on loving him and showing him by my actions. This whole time 3 yrs I've never denied him once yet and I don't plan to. I'll do whatever it takes. I wish I had turned the corner years ago I wish he had communicated it in a way it got my attention years ago. Not blaming him at all it was my fault for not recognizing it. He blames himself to for not blowing up on me years ago. Sad I know.

I have said the very same thing you have. If this affair was what it took to make me pay attention and make my husband happy the rest of his life and be the wife I should be, then that is what it took. It may just have saved our marriage I hope it did. I wish it didn't take all of this of course I wish I had been the way God intended me to be. I also think that I would have changed all on my own, but I would not have been so impacted like I was after finding out about the affair. I would not have realized how bad I hurt him and how I made him feel. I know it's hard to even think this, but I believe I have as much,if not more, guilt over all of this than my husband.

I have been on this site for 30 days now and have read every single post since June 2012. Just responding under different account. I know truth always hurts specially if people do not want to accept it or understand it.

The issue here RRRW is that your husband did not communicate with you. If you have read extensively here you will find many references to "The Talk". Old timers here encourage communication. We do not believe any spouse - refused or refuser is a mind reader. We encourage discussing the issue and even offer advice and possible ways of structuring such conversations. We advise ruling out medical reasons and suggest counseling - whether its secular or faith based. Any truly open minded person who ventures here will garner this within ten to fifteen stories.

I have cheated and I think my wife cheated on me, in both cases it did have the effect of helping our marriage, but only because it so tramatized the other person it shocked them into action.

A more mature approach is simply to say that I'm not going to cheat on you but this is not working for me either, we need to fix this or we need a divorce.

Divorce is the last option, if you take it off the table though many times people will just snuggle into suckage and sit there.

Cheating is like a false relief valve, to takes energy outside the marriage and allows things to remain status quo of suckage until found out then many times it'll be the thing that motivates people to get their *** in gear and do something different but it's an extremely painful way of accomplishing something two mature adults should be able to do on their own.

Cheating primarily and always cheats the cheater themselves, it's more harmful to them actually and that's why in my opinion it's a bad idea, especially as a concious decision.

It's a cop out.

The truth is many times still buried after all this, the damage my affair did is still ping ponging through my marriage even ten years later.

My wife did the same thing, she was a bunny for a while but you have to be careful that's not sustainable.

She did it for years then things whipsawed the other way and I quit caring and then things imploded on the rocks and she's the one having the affair.

There's only one real way out of this mess, you have to dig down deep and find yourself and only by doing that can you truly give yourself to a relationship, and it takes TWO people doing this to make it work.

Everyone's relationship is different but be very VERY careful of thinking you've fixed something, in many cases nothing is really fixed it's just a switch from who's taking the abuse.

You better be sure you're really ok with what you're doing on a deep and permanent level, if you aren't then you'll tire out and stop.

The pain of losing someone can be incredible motivation but that's not a lifelong thing, it'll peter out and when it does you'll be left with the same unresolved issues and your energy level will be nil to fix it.

The more I read on here and other places the more messes I see and the only true solution for it that I see is comming to a place where you know yourself and can love from that place.

Don't ever lie to yourself about this, if you do, you're toast and so is your marriage.

It's a diagnostic approach, I agree, it's like thinking you fixed a car because now it starts and runs, nevermind that you forgot to check the transmission and it's due to fail in about 100 miles. A relationship is a nearly impossibly complex thing, many times human thinking is to believe that it's a much simpler fix than it really is.

It's so complicated in fact they are impossible to fake and that's why so many of them go south, someone is faking something.

The hard part is the realization at the end of the day even if you do everything you feel you need to do, you can't make your partner do this and you can't change them only they can and they may not even want to.

Your best hope many times is a third party to at least point out things in an impartial way, cause one partner could say you do this and it drives me crazy about a bagillion times and someone else can say it once and they'll go, oh I didn't realize I did that, I'll work on that, it'd be funny if it wasn't so exaperating.

Oseansun,
How can you say this to RRRW "I think him cheating was the best thing he did".

It's like saying that the best thing happened to you was that your refuser refused you for this long as now you have found your way out of it and are much happier. How do you know that you are happeir now and would have been less happy if your refuser would not have refused.

When I first got here I posted about how sad I was that my refuser refusing kept us from having children of our own. No sex, no babies.

One of my now-friends-I've-met-in-person here said to me "That was the best thing your H ever did for you. He knew he didn't love you the way you deserved to be loved so he didn't have a baby with you and stuck you with him forever." And I said to him "Oh my Lord - you are right! What an amazing paradigm shift!"

Really, I did. It was huge. Big change requires big thinking. Some people here are trying to force things back to the way they want them to be instead of thinking outside the box.

Did your marriage vow said somehwere "In case of not having sex as i want, we are allowed to cheat".

I'd like to add that "stay or leave" is also the "black and white" thinking that the refuser used to create the situation in the first place. IF the refused used that same black and white thinking in their solution right from the start, I bet a lot of families would be even worse off in the aftermath.

The refuser, refuses without regard for the impact on anyone in the family.

The refused, empowers themself in an effort to preserve the family.

Also, IF the refused never got caught and simply filed for divorce on the child's 18th birthday, what no one knew wouldn't have hurt them.

In a previous relationship of a year or more, I never knew my (then) mate was cheating on me until after the relationship had been broken up and they finally wanted to get back together and even used truth, spilling the beans, to accomplish it. I wasn't hurt as I was relieved at the truth. In fact, I wasn't hurt at all because I was already out of the relationship, it simply no longer mattered.

The vows said "until death do us part", it meant the "death of the marriage". lol

My goal is not to hurt you Scottsdad or cast aspersions on anyone. It's never a good situation to live in a SM but the soluton is not "affairs/cheating". Your mate was also guilty of doing the same cheating as you. If everyone does the same, how is it going to be good for everyone and society. Moral values were created by people for the people to live in a civilized societies. If everyone promotes immorla behaviour, where is the final solution.

No worries, you can't hurt me because my sexless marriage already destroyed me, I rebuilt myself back up. Self-love and self-respect and self-esteem at the core. When sticking to morals in the midst of abuse causes you more pain, you realize that the morals are misplaced. "Choice" is that of "free will" which God gave us. Without our actual ability to use free will, it wouldn't be God's will. Removing "judgement" from anything, we see that everything just "is as it is" and looking closer, it's quite possible to see the "Hand of God" at work in the midst of any and every tragedy or adversity. Had the "affair" in your case never happened, you never would have realized the damage you caused your husband or the renewed love and faith you both recommited to, he would still be miserable. I say , you are lucky when caught, that he didn't say "C ya". He again used his "Choice" and free will to determine whether your marriage together was worth any more chances, as did you. making "choices" are not what immoralizes society, condeming, judging or taking opposite stance with choices made is what immoralizes society. Love, forgive, make choices and move forward, whatever that may mean. Looking at the "good or bad" in choices made in the past and / or hating others for their exercising of choice and free will, is only something that hurts yourself and holds you and your relationships back.

WOW Good answer.

I am loving the comments on this entire posting!

ScottyDad. I can say that it may be true in some marriages that a "refuser" hangs on for financial support and their own personal gain and comfort. I don't know why it's so hard to understand that it may be possible and really exist, maybe this refuser truly loves their spouse, as I Do. Maybe there are issues and maybe they are not PA. I speak for myself to say I have a good heart with no intent of ever hurting my husband or family. Did I, YES. I see how much he's changed through all of this and what I've done to him.

I am sure this PA, deceptive for their own gain, family destroying refusing spouse, cold hearted person actually exists out there more than I know. There are some good hearted, loving, nurturing to the family, would do anything for their family, true blue refusing spouses. Who if anyway possible will change and never do their spouse this way again. Like Me.

The refuser does not empower themselves at the expense of the family. Maybe in your case, but definitely not in my case. I have given everything I possibly was capable of to my family. I've done the very best I could. I failed in taking care of my husbands needs which is awful and I realize what a heck of a life we would have had if I had been able to get straightened out a long time ago. I am not a selfish person. I was selfish when it came to sharing intimacy and love making I admit this and it's a real selfish act as I look back. Having an affair is a selfish thing too. A lot of my problem was I was worried about everybody and their brother and would think at night about everything possible instead of shutting down and concentrating on my husband. I am a very caring, affection person to family and friends always hugging them and saying I love you. So I wonder how I could have gone so wrong in taking care of my sweet man. I have always stood by my husband, always agreeing to help his family financially, taking care of his Grandmother with Alzheimer's, staying with his mother when she had a stoke just like one of her daughters even when I was right smack dab in the middle of this affair and was devastated. Switching shifts with my husband while being separated and wouldn't dare let his mother know this. I acted like things were okay, but I couldn't get out of there quick enough so I could burst into tears in the parking lot. I love his family they are my family and my family is his and he loves them too and has always helped them in anyway.

So don't lump all refusers into this terrible, self loathing, selfish, PA, stereotype. It's just not true. I get that if this has been your experience that you would feel this way.

I was rushed to finish this, but I told all of the stuff I had done for his family to say this is LOVE. love for my husband that's why I have done what I have done. Mostly for my love of him, but also love his family too. This is not the actions of a selfish, self absorbed, mean refuser. This is the point I wanted to make. I'm not patting myself on the back at all I have many flaws and failures and I am no where near what I should be. I just want to explain I am a good hearted, caring person. That's all.

You can accept that you are a caring and loving person and also that you did not love or care for your spouse in the way he wanted and needed to be cared for. Yet you find it difficult to understand how a refused spouse who has love and care to give to their spouse, who is rejected time and time again over years, could have an affair where that love and passion is wanted and needed and reciprocated.

You can understand that you love your spouse and yet did not act in love with him. Yet you cannot understand the opposite of this yin-yang dynamic where a refused spouse has an affair after years of being in a sexless limbo and yet still does love his or her refusing spouse.

What it boils down to is that despite the emotional and mental anguish a refused spouse suffers, there is a tendency to consider the act of omission - omission of love, of intimacy, of connection as somehow being more acceptable than the act of commission - seeking affirmation, intimacy and physical connection from someone else - despite being rejected time and time again. This condones emotional and mental abuse.

If you do not condone this abuse, then the same litmus of 'divorce' instead of withhold is the black and white test to apply. But I doubt many refusers would do this. There are always rationalizing reasons for refusing and I have encountered almost the entire playbook. I have read of only two refusers in this forum who let their spouses go because they understood (and pretty early in their respective relationships too), that they were unable to love their spouses the way they wanted or needed to be loved. Make of that what you will.

Lao, thank you as always for a well reasoned and beautifully worded response.

RRRW: to put it bluntly, you think that having an affair is somehow *more wrong* than repeatedly refusing your spouse the love and affection they deserve and need to feed not only their souls but also the marriage itself.

you, and others like you, though you very well do display love for the very spouse you have so painfully abused for YEARS, somehow hold yourselves and the emotional and psychological abuse of withholding love affection and intimacy as morally superior, to the actions of a spouse that has BEEN emotionally/psychologically abused for YEARS taking some affection where they find it.

i tell you neither action is right. BOTH are wrong. NEITHER is superior or inferior.

what we, here, the "refused" are trying to convey to you, is that in MOST cases the affair is the RESULT of the abuse heaped on us by our spouses. and in MOST cases, is the first step out the door to divorce.

frankly, i have been on this board for many months and haven't seen a single "refused" like myself cheerfully say "y'know what i think i'll just go cheat it sounds like fun."

most of the posters are in mental anguish as they discuss, and in fact do feel guilt and pain.

most refusing spouses show no remorse.

there is a contrast here.

the sanctimonious, patting each other on the back attitude of all you who've chimed in condemning the folks who post regularly and have endured many years of such emotional & psychological abuse as many could never endure sickens me.

i think y'all should start your own group--and stay out of ILIASM unless and until you have something *constructive* to add.

Laotuz. I think you missed the part where I have said repeated in many comments and other stories that I totally get why and how my husband had his affair. ME. I do understand fully why a refused would go that route. I did tell him I didn't blame him I understood. You are right about condoning emotional, physical and mental abuse of a refused spouse and the b/w scenario. I believe refusing behavior is abusive to the very core and soul of a person. I hang my head low my husband deserved better.

I want to say when I suggest divorce vs affair to me that is giving a fair warning, a serious as hell warning that I've had enough this is it "the talk" as referred to here in this group. One time in our lives I did feel threatened like he might think about divorce it was about 7 yrs ago. We didn't even talk then we just fought and I knew he was tired and I needed to do something. I went to doctor got Wellbutrin Xl and that was all (I swear to you if I had gotten t cream at that time our lives would have been turned around and that's no lie) dumb doctor dumb me. The Wellbutrin helped me feel more myself and that helped a tiny bit in responding to his advances. I would have liked to have had that Talk and been given the last ditch effort chance. I know I had many chances through life. ;-(

All I can say at this point is I agree with you. I do just about everything you said I agree

ALL refusing is on some end of the scale of PA behavior. Not "mean" I can give you, but, you were selfish and self-absorbed and may be still in some areas. Trying to "identify" with all the "nice" things you have done for everyone in the universe BUT him is as "altruistic" as this whole story of yours. You are trying to "overcompensate" and play a reverse "martyr" of sorts.

Your husband had "The Talk" with you many a times, you just had your blinders on and head in the sand. Now, you woke up, to some extent but, are still not fully awake.

RW, "Laotuz. I think you missed the part where I have said repeated in many comments and other stories that I totally get why and how my husband had his affair. ME."

No. He didn't have the affair because of you. He had the affair because of the marriage. Some of those were your choices, some of them his. Some of them were things that happened and weren't handled well on both sides. The problem was in THE MARRIAGE. So something in the MARRIAGE had to change. Which woke you up to the problem in THE MARRIAGE. And let you both start working on a solution within the MARRIAGE. The only solution to a sexless marriage must come from a 100/100 approach to solving it with the MARRIAGE.

*within* the marriage.

"Did your marriage vow said somehwere "In case of not having sex as i want, we are allowed to cheat"."

Actually, marriage contracts are nul and void if there is no sex - that's where you can get an ANNULMENT. Yup, no sex means NO MARRIAGE and if there's not marriage, you are free to OUTSOURCE.

Oh shut the **** up you too.

not you Esjay. the other chump.

Truth hurts. Doesn't it?
You can't have your cale and eat it too. Stay faithful in marriage or take divorce and do wahtever you want to do. Thank god you people did not write the Bible.

Cake

My wife and I worked out a creative solution to her not wanting to have sex with me. What's immoral about that?

As per you guys, we should change the law and make people marry as many as they can so each of them will provide you one things First one House, second one cars, third one emotional intimacy and fourth one sex. Way to go to meet all your demands.

Gosh you're a ******* moron.

Many people here don't cheat. A few do. Like the regular world too.

I don't agree with calling it cheating Change.

-----"we should change the law and make people marry as many as they can". People CAN marry as many people as they wish - they just cannot do it at the same time. It is called serial marriage.

Maybe we SHOULD write the Bible. I'll even throw in some professional copyediting for free!

"Thou shalt not abuse they spouse"
"Thou shalt not ignore they spouse's entreaties for relief from suffering and pain"
"Thou shalt be honest and forthright with reasons for changing the sexuality of the marriage; thou shalt not make unilateral sexual decisions without the input of thy spouse"
"Thou shalt not blame thy spouse for thine's own failings in the bedroom department"...

Anyone else want to play?

Ocean, you're right. It's not cheating. I mispoke, trying to use "their" terminology. We've been cheated and sometimes we just need to get some of our own identity back. Thanks for catching that.

You're good please keep going, but copy and paste this up there.

You really only have two good options, stay or leave. It's the same two options you have at all times.

C12 said " Just one final questions to everyone, if they are so proud of what they are doing and promoting here then why not come up in the open (instead of showing AN EP USER) and say that in public."

Talk about hypocrisy... You created a new account to talk about this and are unwilling to even post these comments on an online anonymous site with your real, first anonymous user name but you want us to think you stand proud and stand tall in your beliefs.

So C12 if you are so proud of what you are doing and promoting here then why not come up in the open (instead of showing Cheaters12) and say that in public under your real first psuedonym?

As for that hypocrisy... it really does take one to know one, doesn't it C12?

so sorry.

The marriage deserves either a shot or a quick death, the cheating thing is stupid and so is anyone advocating it.

Open marriages being the exception, if the people want to do that fine but you can't really close that down easily after you toss the doors open.

My wife never cut me off that long, she tried to though and that's when it was on like Donkey Kong and it should of been, I refused to stand for it, not going to happen, nada, nope never.

By standing for it for even a while it tends to turn into years, i'd rather divorce right now and get right with getting on with my life than I would waste years trying to fix something that's either broken beyond repair or it's not.

So going with out for months, sure, it takes time to work stuff out, half a year or years? pffft not hardly.

Then good for you, woop dee doo.
Looks like you have all the answers, so what are you doing here?

What he said.

...any chance I could entice you to unleash some scripture on her, EIT??

If I may:
"The husband must fulfill his (sexual) duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Stop depriving one another (of sex)." 1 Corinthians 7:3-5

"Then we perverts could be happy w each other, and the low-desire people could play bridge or do crosswords or whatever it is they like to do. If they really want to get wild, I guess they could hold hands."

That's classic, LMAO!!

LMAO

"low-desire people could play bridge or do crosswords or whatever it is they like to do"
------

We occassionally trade spouses with another couple. They are dear friends and neighbors, and we knew each other in our vanilla lives, through our kids, before we both accidentally outed our lifestyle choices in a spectacular coincidence.

What's even more of a coincidence, is that their catalyst into trying an open relationship was the same as ours. This wasn't evident immediately because they are more closed about their marital affairs, and because she tends to hold such cards close to her chest.

She is intimacy averse, she recently explained. They haven't, for months.

Funny our perspectives on this because as we took our first steps forward, each of our wives detonated in fiery balls of insecurity about the other. And I can say, without hesitation, that I have had some of the sweatiest, rough, unhindered, wild sex with this supposedly "no sex" woman that I've had in my life. I can also say that my wife has done the same with another partner, and also in a more unusual situation where I was present.

The issue, I think with most of these "no sex" folks is not that they don't like sex, even if they think they don't. LOL my wife STILL tries to say she doesn't like sex (on an off day), even though it's a ridiculous claim now. If I point it out, she acquiesces to the truth, for a while at least. It's hard to ditch labels you apply to yourself.

Rather, the issue is one of context and intimacy. It's easy to have sex with someone who is clearly differentiated and where there is little risk in intimacy - in being seen and known.

It's harder to find desire with someone who is so fused with you that you don't know where you end and they begin, and where true intimacy requires forgiving the hurts and opening oneself to trust and vulnerability again.

Bravo that's amazing that's it, cause once my wife moved past the intimacy thing the sex was amazing again. It's that they shut down on getting close to you they just give up on it, and they feel bad for not wanting the guy so they shut it all off but if you light a match near it they'll go off like a blaze of fireworks.

I think something else is broken down, trust, intimacy like you said, it's not a lack of desire for sex, agree completely.

Oh hell yes!
One of the last amusing attempts my refusing wife and I had sex, her very words were,"... ok, let's get this over with". RRRW, I don't think you have a clue. I also believe you don't belong here. Find a group more suited to your sexual proclivities... say maybe "Group Quilting" or "Beekeeping for the elderly". Just a few suggestions. Oh, you might want to remove any mirrors from your bathroom to avoid learning you have a body like everybody else...

"it's become clinical, a mechanical act to be gotten over with as quickly as possible with as little contact as possible. "
----------
Funny, I very recently came to an epiphany on a related topic, and had a very intense "course corrective" discussion with my wife on this subject, after she had a revealingly strong negative reaction to me expressing the desire to "try" half of a Viagra pill. As always when I wish try experiment a little, I gave first dibs to her.

This led to wider discussion about the quality and style of sex we had, and her attitude towards "managing my sexuality" and even, I think, a touch of misandrist ideology, of deep seated hate (and I know where it comes from). She clearly extended her issue of "propriety" to far, now into my own body, and she hit my wall.

The resulting furball we both had, as I put the hammer down, was illuminating. I realized that my "settling" for bad, non-intimate sex, early in the peak of the Bad Old Days, even asking or "pressuring" for it as proof of love and an intimate connection, had damaged us both. Bear with me for a moment. I eventually stopped trying, but we had several experiences where she CLEARLY was not into it, and where I continued, hoping she'd come on board. She spent that same time proving to me that while she acquiesced to the use of her body, she was not going to participate.

That transaction was damaging for us both. It allowed her to engineer a situation where she could confirm that I'd take the passionless intimacy barren screw that she, in her passive aggressive way, was going to offer me instead of the mercy of saying "No." And that I could actually come from it.

There's all kinds of insights around this dynamic and plenty of blame to share, but I'll also own to this much. I despised myself for finding, when it was quickly and clinically over, or when she chose not to "show up". I despised myself for accepting that, in lieu of what I wanted. I realize now, I'm better than that and deserve more than that.

So as we plough through subsequent issues surrounding a lack of trust around intimacy and vulnerability, it strikes me that she must also have residual feelings as well. She shares responsibility for creating the scenario, with the result being that it's harder to respect my sexuality when I will accept such an unnourishing meal. I let her do that - for a while.

exactly, apocrypha....that i *allowed* him to use my body that way (because it was the only way to get *any* physical contact with him) shamed me as much as it reflected on him. it took me long enough to come to grips with that.

very recently he offered me more of the same "re set" clinical/totally mechanical act: my answer was "no."

what an epiphany--for me--and long overdue. i refuse to settle.

I could nearly feel my wifes skin crawling when having sex with me, forgive me but at that point my reaction was this is hopeless we need to move towards divorce.

My thoughts were we need to be divorced if she feels that way I aint comming back from that, this is hopeless and why on earth would she want to stay but when I said I was leaving she seemed hurt.

This told me something was completely fubar'd.

My point is that cheating just leaves the fubar'd stuff there, if it's messed up you can either fix it or not but cheating fixes nothing.

It's like cheating at solitaire, sure you get sex but then what? You're still married to someone that cant stand being with you. Great, what if you actually like the other person you're having sex with?

You can't do anything like get married until you're divorced so you're in some kind of bizzaro relationship that's again fubar'd before you even got out of the last fubar'd relationship.

I'm not passing moral judgements on it, it's just not a great idea unless again both people want an open marriage then that's a bit different.

Which is why I think you should divorce when they say things like that, they either mean it or they don't and are just trying to hurt you.

By allowing them to treat you like that you're just digging the disrespect hole deeper.

It clicked for me when I decided that marriage is not forever, that if they don't want me then maybe part of it is me and I'll work on me and that maybe if I'm unwanted I'll just get lost and go and start over.

Once I hit that point and was going is the only thing that ever turned it around.

CVann5. Thanks for the suggestions

By the way, I've overcome the mirror. Check that flaw off. I don't know if you read that in my post somewhere but i didn't look at myself in the mirror much less look at him. Haven't you heard Ive had some issues.

I do have a far better clue now than i did so I'm on my way! God willing. By the way, the quilting group just wouldn't do it for me these days as I am a reformed refuser! I have feelings where I should have them again. Who hoo

I think my wife had an affair, I have no proof, I'm not that upset at her and the cheating would hurt if I found out for sure but I would of forgiven her that our marriage sucked.

So if she had one it likely saved our marriage because it made her so untennable with it that she wanted out which forced me to deal with my own issues, then she paused in leaving me, then we did the maybe maybe not dance for about a year and finally I started to say enough of this crap.

When I set my foot down and wanted to leave it got better, because she decided she wanted it to, it's that simple, we have sex like bunnies now and still I am not sure it'll last.

The point is from where we were to where we are is astonishing, and mostly it had to do with things I worked through, and she didn't believe it was real, took forever but essentially I unhinged a really codepenent relationship and once I did that which was the single hardest thing I've ever done, once I did that she seemed to sense it and gain respect for me again and then things got better.

Had I cheated I would of lost all that respect from her I had gained and I would of been toast.

So I just think it's a bad idea and even so if she had one and it was not on purpose it could of saved our marriage, so I think it's different if it's unknown and unfound out.

I think my wife had an affair, I have no proof, I'm not that upset at her and the cheating would hurt if I found out for sure but I would of forgiven her that our marriage sucked.

So if she had one it likely saved our marriage because it made her so untennable with it that she wanted out which forced me to deal with my own issues, then she paused in leaving me, then we did the maybe maybe not dance for about a year and finally I started to say enough of this crap.

When I set my foot down and wanted to leave it got better, because she decided she wanted it to, it's that simple, we have sex like bunnies now and still I am not sure it'll last.

The point is from where we were to where we are is astonishing, and mostly it had to do with things I worked through, and she didn't believe it was real, took forever but essentially I unhinged a really codepenent relationship and once I did that which was the single hardest thing I've ever done, once I did that she seemed to sense it and gain respect for me again and then things got better.

Had I cheated I would of lost all that respect from her I had gained and I would of been toast.

So I just think it's a bad idea and even so if she had one and it was not on purpose it could of saved our marriage, so I think it's different if it's unknown and unfound out.

We already paid it Apocrypha and still are, both of us.

Faithfully blue, I really liked your post. A very sensible and empathetic presentation of thoughts. I hope you find your solution soon. We all understand that a SM is painful and will always almost end unless fixed soon. The question is about how to fix it. I believe the best possible way to handle it by bluntly telling your spouse that you give them a timeframe within it needs to be fixed or you are leaving/divorcing. This is called tough love. Affairs/cheating are not the solution. It ends up hurting everyone and people loose their self respect in the end.

Faithfully blue I don't think you went off on tangent and I understand and agree with you on everything you've said. It's the truth. I wish you the best

I admit my patience level is down when it comes to "issues" -- but I don't have pent up anger. Just saying. :)

EVERYONE is different...We all handle things our own way.............. : )