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We Had The Talk Last Night

so he has been getting progressively more snippy and snarky in recent weeks. i just couldn't handle the seething atmosphere & how it's been affecting not only me, but our daughter.

so, sent her (upstairs) to her room to play video games. (a big treat) so we could talk.

told him he needs to get an atty. he gave me shocked face " why?"

i opened with the debt clusterf!ck and he responded he told me its his responsibility he'll take care of it. told him i brought it up to you over 2 months ago & your response has been variations on its none of my business and you'll take care of it. you don't GET that this was a huge betrayal. something that's been going on for years not a one time thing. it's a pattern. add in the HUGE tax refund from 2 yrs ago you *actively* lied to me about. you have destroyed all trust in you. (Etc)

he responded explaining investments, " net we are ahead" but then because *i* forced him into "fire sale mode" by freezing both loans "without discussing" with him first, he was "forced" to accept "big losses"--all "me" language. pointed this out to him. he modifies his language yet continues in same vein.

i tell him it's not only this, this was just the straw that broke the camel's back, i've been miserable for years. you've known it. you've done nothing about any of it. it took me telling you i want a divorce back in October for you to even consider doing anything about our sexlessness and then it was to get a prescription and tell me you have the prescription and *you're* waiting. do you really believe that's how intimacy works? no don't answer because in your mind that IS how it works. it needs to be so much more than a mechanical act performed on request/command.

there have been many other fights in the past few years and the things you've said to me and your actions scream a lot louder than your words do. this is not a marriage it's not even a partnership. you make all the decisions. you call them "ours." you call *your* dreams for the future "ours."

when have you ever asked me what i want? when have you ever asked me my dreams for the future?

you get the drift.

he promised the sun the moon and the stars. he'll change. he'll go for therapy. he'll put all decisions in my hands. he'll give me his pay and i can pay all the bills make the $$ decisions etc. please give him another chance. give him a chance to make it up to me. whatever i want.

i told him several times my decision is already made, have already filed with the court, etc. he still wants me to reconsider.

i told him it doesn't mean i don't still love him, we can still be friends we will always be in each other's lives, etc.

he's still asking me to reconsider and "please don't do this to us." he said he was sorry more last night in the space of a one hour talk than he has in 11 years. when pointed out he said he'll say sorry more too.

SO

it was rough in a completely different way than i had anticipated.

and likely to get rougher since i am just...done. it shouldn't take me hiring a lawyer to get him to wake up. and frankly i just don't see either one of us being happy should i give in, give him another chance. he just doesn't see that living in front of the tv or computer, and living vicariously through our daughter (other than the once a month or so, generously speaking, that we get together with friends) is just wrong on so many levels. not only for me, but for him, too. yet--he's content to live his life that way, with me as his pretty accessory.

i am more than an accessory.

any suggestions on follow up conversation (a gentle yet firm it ain't going to work) appreciated.

thanks, all.
smithy8015 smithy8015 46-50, F 15 Responses Jan 30, 2013

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hiya smithy. :) sorry been so mia. had to go back and catch up on your stories to see what was going on in your world. i'm SO PROUD of you for standing up for yourself when you talked to your H. you did a good thing there. i know it sucked and it was hard, but you did the hardest step. everything from here is just rebuilding. sorta. ;) i mean, if we lived in a perfect world. lol.

one thing i am worried about for you is this: your credit and your financial future.

are both of you on all of these loans and stocks? are both of your SS#'s listed? If so, can you get your name taken off immediately? i would highly recommend getting financial divorce advice, not just legal. you need to know where you stand financially now and for the future.

i also recommend that you do the annual free credit report for you, and get your current credit scores. you should also pay the fee for the monthly updates so you can see if any changes have happened to your credit. do not trust your H. also, you should run a report for your daughter's SS# too. i know this sounds creepy, but i did read that people like your H who are hiding assets will use any family member's SS# and info to create secret accounts. please bring this up with your attorney to see what you can do about this.

i think you might be a bit more emotionally in control than me, so that's one thing huge you have going for you, more so than me, lol. ;) so, to echo what everyone else said, do not allow him to drag you back in, do not give him one more chance, do not allow him to prove himself to you.

however, you may want to take him up on the $$ offer!! you could sock away some cash for YOU! :) might not be a bad idea.

i would also start researching where you want to live with your daughter, what it would take to live there, etc. start creating a budget and a list of all assets and debts in two separate spreadsheets. you can create one yourself, or do a free download from microsoft's website, or i can email you the one i did for myself. i spent forever on it. :) damn you excel!! hehe.

i am here to chat if you want to email me offline anytime. hang in there girl, you can do this! WE can do this! :)

xoxo.

thanks txmg, i have my credit being monitored already. will be ordering his and my daughters quickly.

i found thi s by running my report as part of the prep process. which naturally put a stall on things while i then had to do damage containment & research & info gathering.

have to post an update. maybe tomorrow. hoping the papers come back soon.

Not that it matters at this point, and not that he would tell you the truth, but it might be worth asking him if he intended to share the profits with you if his shares in the Acme Bowling Ball Company went through roof on the news that Mongolia declared bowling to be the national pastime. "Wha...uh...Of course! Sure...yeah....I was gonna share! Jeez! What a question. Don'tcha trust me...or something?"

*snicker* yes i have had a few ironic laughs in my head at imaginary conversations like this.

He was buying stocks on margin? That is, he was playing the market with borrowed money? Two loans? Wow. That is an enormous risk. I mean, it's your credit rating too if his bets, and they ARE bets, go south.

And you wouldn't know it until the collection agencies started calling at dinnertime. You are absolutely right to hold your ground.

thanks. what i found especially appalling was his pride in being "ahead" and his firm belief he hasn't done anything wrong. and "i knew you wouldn't agree and you would worry so that's why i didn't discuss my investments with you."

the sooner i disentangle myself, the better. and lesson learned: never ever again sign documents without totally vetting them, THEN having an atty review them too.

The market in my jurisdiction has bounced quite a lot over the past 5 months. Dependent on
(a) the quality of the portfolio
(b) whether the market has kicked in your jurisdiction
it is possible that the position might actually be a bit "better" than it was 5 months ago.

"...didn't discuss MY investments with you." Right. And what made him think they were his investments alone? Case in point of Bazzar's Theory of the Non-Existent We.

So it sounds like his margin stock playing has been with your personal accounts, definitely bad business practice. I take it he does not have a limited liability company, LLC or S Corp under which to do these things? You know, my H did the very same thing in his first marriage. I bought on margin and lost big (xxx,000 deutschmarks at the time). It destroyed his first marriage, in combination with a few other things. At least he was big enough to admit this to me before we got married. He never played margin games again.

He was using marital assets-the house-as collateral to get the loans, I think.

Holy sh--. That is over the top.

3 More Responses

Seems from what you said you are holding firm on your decision. He will never be out of your life just in a different place in your life. I think I would calmly give him comfort that you will not be going away just changing the perspective.

knight like, good idea on the calm reminder. thank you.

Good for you. :) Stay strong.

thanks miss lee.

Watch out for him being responsible for the debt. When he declares bankruptcy they will come after you for the money and it will still be your credit that gets screwed. I watched it happen to a friend.

thanks riley, he has too much pride to go the bankruptcy route. more likely that i may have to file as a consequence of his debt.

y'know, if i had the $ to pay it off & walk away...i would. i did it with my cheating x.

this is so much worse, IMO, than an affair. because its a long standing pattern of hiding and covering up something that has effects which reach a lot farther in to the future than an affair would, and affects the future not just of me & him, but also our child.
i will just remind myself it's only money & this too shall pass.

As I read your story, I am having a physical reaction, because what my husband says to me is exactly the same thing. It's always him promising things will be different, and it is! For two days. I am in the beginning of this process to get out of the marriage. Best wishes to you...don't let him manipulate you.

thanks ktstime: keep reading, post for feedback, ideas, and support. and find comfort in knowing you're not alone.

Thank you...will do.

He is, like a dead satellite, slowly dropping out of your orbit.

There may yet be a big flame out when he hits the atmosphere of reality, but it is essentially done.

I wouldn't be generating any follow up conversation. I'd be keeping it to RESPONDING (not "re-acting") him as and when necessary, with a simple imperative in mind. "It's done".

Tread your own path.

thanks baz. yes responding only here on out.

the PA in him will re-emerge i am sure -- need to remind myself silence is the best response in those cases.

<p>I'm with Enna on this one (as I usually am with her almost universally solid advice). Ironically I see something so clearly now that I've left. When the man is the one who is 'done' and leaves I think it is much more possible to have an 'amicable' separation. This is because women, in general, handle this kind of drastic change better/differently then men do. We posture, grow angry, etc. while women seem to just absorb, acknowledge, and then accept better. My STBX just seems to have understood that once I reached the 'point of no return' there was no point in trying to jump in front of the train. Just move on with our lives. We met with our kids' teachers and they were so surprised when we informed them of the different households, phone numbers, etc. Both teachers just said variations of 'I totally didn't get that vibe from you two... normally it is very tense when the parents are in the midst of separation/divorce but you two seem almost friendly about it'. Now is part of that our individual personalities? Sure. I do think, however, that a big part if that I'm the one who 'pulled the trigger' and left.<br />
Good luck Smithy and for whatever it's worth I think you are making the right call!</p>

shoreboy, thanks for your comment. it's a tough call to make as to how we will progress. i am all for being friends/friendly but will prepare for any eventuality.

appreciate the male perspective.

He won't. Sadly you need to be prepared for that at least at first (meaning a few years maybe until he has some 'distance' on things). Just keep your distance both phsyically and emotionally as best you can and start the process with the understanding that ALL agreements will be in writing. I don't care if it is as simple as 'who picks up Johnny from Karate on Thursday?' get it in writing. That keeps everyone honest and away from 'he said she said' as much as possible.

thanks again for the honest assessment of what I'm likely to run up against.

he will likely be "acting out" from fear &amp; hurt. kinda sucks but forewarned is to be prepared. the advice to put it all in writing is wise, &amp; definitely intend to!

<p>At this point it is worth remembering that it took you moving out to generate any action on his part. So that confirms that his actions are about HIM. He wants you to stay - he does not want you to go. So NOW, he is going to do x, y, z and all the rest of it . . . . . . </p><p>Why? So HE gets to keep you.</p><p>None of this great effort he is promising you is related in any way to what YOU want. If it was, it would have been forthcoming well before this. </p><p>"give him a chance to make it up to me" - this is "ME" talk - as in "I need another chance because up to this minute I thought I could have exactly what I want and ignore what you wanted. So I DID ignore what you wanted. Suddenly I've discovered that was a wrong assumption on my part - so I need YOU to give me another chance."</p><p>This is NOT about what you want or need - and it never will be. And his defending his appalling financial behaviour and deceit is good enough reason IMO to leave even if you were having hot steamy sex every night!!! Once trust is broken, especially about major issues, it is very hard to regain a balanced and responsive relationship.</p>

enna: THANK YOU. wise as ever.

i needed to hear this today.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Could not agree more. Sage advice (and basil, thyme and rosemary as well)

And I agree with Bazz as well - don't even try to engage him to make him see the error of his ways. Just deal with sorting out the fallout.

thanks P. will do my best!

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I could have been the author of this story. with a few differences. We don't have the financial problems and STBX does not work but he never listened when we talked. When I said I was leaving in August he started with the I'm sorry's .. it lasted about a week or two. I did not have a formal plan at that time so it was okay with me that he was trying but I never stopped working on my plan out. by the end of August he had went back to his old ways. My Christmas I was DONE. I mean completely.. some people may not understand what that means but I DO.. I told him I was DONE. I would stay till after Christmas when the children were back at school but after that he was on his on.. He didn't even try this time. Then came January 13th.. We sat down again. I told him I would be out within the next few days. HE WAS IN SHOCK.. he started with the fixing things around the house again. Every night I would come in to him tell me what he had done today.. Most of it was 5 minute jobs that I had asked to be done for years. I just said okay or great and kept going. Then the day came when I packed up and started moving out. he was real quite. but the next day I had to go back to get something and he blew up.. ( this is the angry phase people talk about) yes he is in that now. SO stay our course. keep your options open if he continues on the straight path with what you are wanting I mean all of it than you may have won if he reverts back you know what you have to do. Good luck and stay strong. Life is better on the outside. I know I'm living it.

thanks omw, i believe he feels very badly...yet i know how he thinks and what life would soon revert to.

so i totally get where you're coming from with the "i'm done."

may your evolving journey continue to be better each day.

The suggestions for a follow-up really depend on your goals and how you feel about him. Frequently, "I'm done!" is hyperbolic language for "I feel intensely overwhelmed." <br />
<br />
"I'm done!" is a position - a stance. It's not intended to communicate feeling.</P><br />
-------------<br />
"shouldn't take me hiring a lawyer to get him to wake up."<br />
<br />
It's my position, at this point, that it should. For the benefit of everyone reading, "The Talk", where you discuss your POV, is just stretching before the race - an exercise in articulating your points to a partner, and inviting a discussion.<br />
<br />
The starting line of the race occurs at the point where one person takes unilateral action to assert herself in an individual manner, compelling the spouse to react and choose. The boat gets overturned.<br />
<br />
<br />
That could be the *revelation* of an affair, the declaration of intention to separate (with follow up), or the offer of a choice to either openly outsource or separate. It could mean the separation of finances, and quite likely a re-order of household roles. And it ALWAYS will involve the intimacy-seeking spouse finally asserting herself and taking back and setting the agenda and pace, in areas where he or she typically has ceded ground.<br />
<br />
Then, you can begin. And your spouse is going to hate it. You likely won't like it much either.<br />
<br />
In your case, smithy, I don't know. I'd say that you are at a point where you can start to address some issues now - that there is a possibility, provided you reconfigure your roles on a permanent basis, rather than falling into it like before, where you had no idea what was going on. You have the edge.<br />
<br />
But do you want it with him, even if he tries, at this point? How do you feel? I get the sense that there's a push to argue a case here, like you still are invested in this fight - and that tells me you aren't sure yet. Maybe nobody is.<br />
<br />
If your goal is to get out - there's no need to justify or criticize or further respond in that way. Those are old fights, and they will be his problems. Your concern is yourself and your daughter.<br />
<br />
If your goal is to work it out, then whatever you work out must be a completely reconfigured marriage, such that by the time it's done, neither of you would recognize it.<br />
<br />
The way I worked through this in my head when I was still in an in between state and the topic of change came up:<br />
<br />
I considered myself in a post divorce state, as a part time co-parent or single guy. I considered that this woman (my wife) had moved in to the other half of my semi-detached house, and she was in the same boat, with kids half the time. I considered what I knew about her THEN, as if I'd just met her, and if she'd expressed an interest and wanted to include me along with her various activities, such as they are, would I say "Yes" to that? Would I want to find out more, or would I give her wide berth and spend my energy elsewhere. I told her this, and it really set the pace for both of us --which was good, because we were both seeing other people at the time.

apocrypha, as always, thanks for some excellent thoughts and advice.

i've already had a taste of what post-divorce life could be like some months back when he was away for a few weeks. if he can (and i hope he will) agree to be friendly co parents, we could all have much happier lives.

the goal now is to work toward that reality.

If that is the case, and the wheels are already in motion, it's best to cut quickly and quietly, and not get hooked into these kinds of fights and justification.

It is indeed all about him. LT & Zs are right. The more you answer him, the more you encourage him to try and lure you back. Liberate yourself from social convention; you'll be amazed at how much power you have by replying with silence, or changing the topic without seque. Oh, wait, you have already experienced first hand how this refuser technique is deployed. Now use it to protect yourself.

thank you TMBAWO, you're right.

it's really hard with a little person in the house observing it all.

so misdirection redirection and changing the subject along with silence will be useful tactics--thanks for the reminder.

i did use silence last night and again this morning.

Was it useful?

yes. and liberating too, to realize that i don't always have to be the good one who always does the socially "right" thing.

this doesn't mean i will be anything other than who i am (a really nice person on every level)--just means i am not going to be drawn into more discussions and/or post mortems.

Sounds a bit like you are defending your decision, rather than just telling him it's final... maybe even getting a final dig or two in.

I agree with Lao, time to keep it short and simple. "The facts ma'am, nothing but the facts".

Bringing up all the old hurts means you want him to do something about them, or you want to rub it in his face, rather than saying "the end, moving on".

I still think you did great, just some thoughts for the future. And trust me, i know how hard it is to not stand there and go "you did this wrong, you did that wrong, you are still doing the other wrong".

thanks zsuz, my words were in response to his repeated questioning as to why.

since it was the first real conversation we had where he didn't cut me off from discussing, yes i did defend my decision. it wasn't rubbing it in or mean spirited; it was always in response to his "why"

it's not really possible (with his personality) for me to have a conversation about feelings with him, without *defending* my feelings.

so after last night, he understands my feelings.

and you're right it's going to need to be simple from here on out.

thanks zsuz.

Just my rambling thoughts. Keep it short, there is no more debate. The way things were in the marriage, there was no "us" hence leaving does nothing to "us". It does free up both of you to find and be yourselves. You both get a second chance at life, just not together. Breathe and keep moving. Be kind but firm.

thank you Lao. that's my instinct. appreciate your comment.