We Stay For The Kids...

MA - my son turns 21 this coming week. He started spring break yesterday. He called me and asked if he can go to Florida with some friends for the week. I'm probably one of the few dads, saying - please go. Have fun - meet some girls, have fun with some girls. (Of course all I really said is your mom and I want you to have fun.)

But as you obviously realize - this is the most devastating part of what we've endured for the sake of our kids. In our willingness to compromise our lives and happiness to maintain a "normal" home environment for our kids, we have ended up serving as role models for hopeless dysfunction.

Sometimes, I honestly wonder - what is it that I did in my life that was so horrible that I deserve this? If it were just me, and my wife, we'd throw in the towel and call it done. Move on and try to find someone we sync with. But it just never ends when you see your kids emulating what you have lived.

Yes to all the people that say - think about what you're doing - you contemplating ending a marriage because of sex??? They simply have no clue.

I am glad two of you met here. I have learned a lot from both of you. Thanks for sharing.
All my best wishes to you and to your children, Boater and MA.

The genetic factor, my boy copied almost exactly his father appearance, plus lots of characteristics. But I can see he is more active, more sociable. I've taken any opportunity for my boy to socialise, building relationships with his grandparents, cousins, aunts, uncles of both sides. I am trying my best to help my son to be less "quiet" than his dad. But also hope he would take after his dad's positive characteristics as much as possible.

That's the thing with genetics, you don't get to cherry pick the "best" of your (and your spouses) traits and reject the "worst" of your (and your spouses) traits. They could just as easy end up with all the bad traits of both parents. It's a lottery.
But at least if you are trying to establish half decent role models for the kid - or getting him out of the environment, then you are going some way into loading the dice in the kids favour.

"Kids thrive not from an absence of life stress but from seeing and modelling how to cope with it. My role as their dad is to make sure that the stressors are manageable not entirely absent."

PURE GOLD, LaoTzu. Thank you for those words of wisdom.

"Not entirely absent". Love that and so true. We are NOT doing our jobs correctly when we try to keep them so sheltered from life's stressors, nor are we doing our jobs correctly when we model poor management of those stressors.

This bit - "What about doing all you can to save the marriage and turn it from bad to good?" - is a given in ILIASM situations. THEN it comes down to the staying / leaving choice.

Dear Judy, please read my reply to Passthechicken below. You yourself said "If I could have avoided it, I would have" - I believe every one here has been avoiding the word divorce for so long. That is why we are here. Otherwise, we would have joined the forum "I Want A Divorce" instead.

Well, Judy, what a novel idea!! "What about doing all you can to save the marriage and turn it from bad to good?" Now why didn't I think of that? Here I am, flitting gaily from marriage to marriage - much like a butterfly and with aabout as much thought. I am AMAZED to discover there is a third alternative to stay or leabve - and that is to "try"!!

In the words that my partner and I find so meaningful - Wow! Just Wow!!!!

Tell me more about this divorce thing being "easier".
That was not my experience, and I've not seen anyone else on these boards making that claim either.

All organic beings default to the path of least resistance and the easiest course to take is to remain in the marriage and keep the status quo. The most difficult is to depart the marriage. You said it yourself "Divorce is hard on everybody" - so divorcing, according to you, is harder than remaining in the marriage.

Passthechicken: I think NO ONE on this forum goes straight to divorce without carefully considering all the possible options. Most of the members here have experienced from couple of years to 30 years or more of ILIASM, don't you think they have tried all possible ways, have been patient, have been living in hope, and then hopelessness?

Good Grief!! Are you saying "don't get divorced"? How astonishing!! Here I am flitting gaily from one easy divorce to the next - they just get easier all the time! I tell everyone - you just need to get enough practice and you can get to the point where you can get divorced in your sleep . . . !!! Now why would I want to stick with a marriage with even the TEENSIEST difficulty, considering how EASY it is to divorce??!!

Last night I read these two posts several times - Pass and Judy. They certainly got me thinking, once again, perhaps I'm just being selfish.

It was good to wake up this morning and see so many jumping in on this conversation. I am in a 28 yr marriage. The last time my wife and I were intimate was December, 1999. I've stayed for my son. After all the sacrifices, frustrations, putting on a good face, trying to maintain a substance of normal life, I'm now living with the consequences in the very person I was trying to protect.

That is why I initially shared my life experience with Moon River. Since then she has shared a photo of her 3 yr old son. I can most sincerely say that there is not a person on this board that would not do anything and everything to protect such an adorable and innocent child. I can certainly tell that MR loves her child deeply and struggles immensely over this.

I am obviously not an advocate of "rash" divorce as a solution, simply because two people may not be sexually compatible or intimate "satisfied". It is that nasty law of unintended consequences that rears its ugly head. I did everything I thought I could, with my wife, to protect our son. After 20 years, I now learn, perhaps the tough part is ahead.

This is a painful discussion and aspect of this life we're living. If my experiences can help one person - in this huge, but very small world - then I am happy with myself.

See, this is why I ridicule such comments as those by Judy54 and Passthe chicken. Because it causes people like Boater to wonder if he HAS done enough, to question himself YET again about how much effort HE needs to put into a dead relationship in the vain hope he c(by himself) can breathe life into something that died long ago.

Judy and Chicken, if you were to read widely on this forum you would understand that the positions you take are grossly UNFAIR to the posters. The posters here have turned themselves inside out, for years (decades in many cases) trying to fix their marriages. Their partners OTOH have made NO such efforts.

When you challenge ILIASM posters "don't be selfish" or "we owe it to them to do all we can to make it succeed", you are saying "YOU are not trying hard enough"> What I find especially distasteful about you both as commentators is that you have both been divorced yourselves!! So you of all people know the heartache and distress that accompanies this decision - yet you reach "staying" to the OP and other posters here! WHERE is your empathy?????

Thanks Enna! There are always at least two points of view. But I agree that it would appear no one in this forum takes marriage or divorce lightly.

navbwb,

applauding your raw honesty in this post. i might suggest that your role models in childhood were functionally dysfunctional.

yes you should have seen affection. LOTS of it. and you should have had memories of fun times, in addition to the memories of arguments.

i am hopeful my getting out now and continuing to model physical affection (hugs, cuddles, kisses freely given, etc) as well as spoken affection freely given, and our more relaxed, fun, future together will model the way i want my daughter to envision her future life.

brave indeed, your post-and what boater is trying to achieve with his son.

Navbwb -

Thanks so much for sharing such a heartfelt post. (And thank you for your kind words about me - you've certainly made my day.) With that I would say, while you state you never married, I would certainly hope you are in a meaningful and satisfying relationship. While I can't speak for the women of the world - I'm fairly confident there are plenty out there that would cherish someone as thoughtful and sincere as you - clearly you are a very good man. I will continue my discussions with my son, as difficult as they are. (All the while my wife reminding me - he is your son, not your friend. That may sound worse than it is - but she feels that I share too much with him.)

To the rest - I guess MR and I did touch a nerve. One day, I just hope to find something in life that is "easy". When I joined this forum just a few weeks ago now - for those that have followed my stories - I did so because I started an exercise routine which resulted in some "unexpected consequences" - further increased libido. I, like perhaps many of you were clearly frustrated with the lack of intimacy in my life, but took a perspective of "what's wrong with me - overall I've got a good life, for all that's wrong with the world, my big complaint is I'm not getting enough sex". How selfish is that? People go to bed hungry, people are getting killed in wars, and I'm not getting enough sex. What IS wrong with me?

What has certainly come through loud and clear since joining the group – “it” almost has nothing to do with sex. Sex is the culmination, not the origination. Yes there is the spontaneous, raw lust, passionate, blow your mind sex – but that is just not every day, nor sustainable. Sex that I think all of us are lacking/looking for is the real thing – the evolution from a loving relationship that starts with two people that deeply care for each other - a touch, a kiss, a kind word, a shoulder to cry on, someone to laugh with, someone that ultimately you want to be next to, skin to skin, sharing each other – physically and emotionally.

To the point of this post, and what I think has touched a nerve is that many of us have compromised our relationships for our kids. We’ve said “ok, I’ll give up on sex, because that is selfish.” I’ll put up with it because I want my son/daughter/kids to have their mom and dad together. As I’m sure anyone with kids knows – no matter how young – they don’t miss a thing. And for the most part, they seek to emulate the behaviors of their mom and dad. So while we think – ok, the kids don’t see mom and dad making love/having sex, but they’re not supposed to - so as long as we’re civil, friendly and maintain a “warm” home, I’ll just go through the motions and all will be well – after all, “it’s only sex”.

In the few short weeks I’ve been in this forum, I’ve met people in Australia, Asia, Europe and here in the U.S. – I’ve been amazed and enlightened as to the magnitude of this issue. While I’m not deeply religious, perhaps this is why god created man AND woman. Not to be roommates, but to enjoy each other – physically and emotionally. (If it was just about pro-creation, I’m sure there could have been other alternatives.)

I conclude without any answers – but a caution to the members of our “little club” ILIASM – we may well be raising the next generation of members – and how sad is that?

"I don't remember demonstrative affection, EVER. Maybe it was there and I just don't remember it, but I don't." Then there certainly was none. These memories (of affection) are not "stand out" memories, but simply recollections of how your parents interacted with you and with each other - and your brother.

You (NAVBWB) are a very self aware person whose legacy of your parents' dysfunctional marriage is to AVOID being caught in a similar situation. I see similar behaviour in my own adult children.

Dysfunctional families are always going to exist - and each of us who has lived in such a situation knows that we (as individuals) must deal with that legacy. How we do that varies enormously.

There's a story "You Pay Now - The Kids Can Pay Later" you could look at for additional material. The story is nothing great, but the comments are very good.

I shall look at it, certainly. Thanks a lot, brother Bazz.

And so, you believe how they have become now (at least their attitudes toward women) is the outcome of their living in a dysfunctional marriage?

I believe that is highly likely. But I cannot definitively "prove it".
That's why I was at pains to point out this is an anecdote, of my personal experience. I am not holding it up as a universal truth.

It goes beyond mere anecdotal evidence ... because once you start working with people who have a seriously flawed attitude to relationships, you get to see just how many of them come from a broken/loveless family background.

What is a little heartening is that I know also some people who come from a bad background, but have managed to get their **** together as adults in their love life.

Thanks, Bazzar.

Agree, Petrushka :)

Scrambledheart: A little bit more about your "wake up call", if you could share? Thanks.

I'm new to exp proj. It doesn't seem to allow me to link to a long post I put up about my own personal struggle. It is ID 771924. I'll see if I can pm you the link. It is a bit too long to post here as a comment.

Thank you :)

Good advice.... I am still struggling to accept it though. Our oldest just left the nest and while my wife and I keep our fights away from the kids, they can feel the tension. They know we struggle and it shows in their lives too.

Dear Bazzar, with my respect to you, I may say that I am not living in a "shithole" situation, not sure what you really mean, I often see you using that word. I am not native, unless my reading comprehension is zero, I understand the word "shithole" is very very negative. If it is really the "shithole" marriage that I understand, I would have run away years ago, Bazzar.

Well you introduce yet another way to look at it Sister Moon, the "Well, my marriage isn't as bad as some" method. This one will also suffice to hold you in the dysfunctional situation.

It IS a dysfuntional marriage, but it is NOT a shithole to me. I do not fool myself about that, I am working on it, planning toward a different future ~ not sure it is better or not, I may jump into a REAL shithole then, who knows?

I am probably talking semantics here, but IF you get out, and end up in a functional loving "we" type relationship in your future, you will see - comparitively speaking - just how bad your present deal is. You might not go as far as calling it a shithole (you are a refined woman I know !!!) but I will bet, absolutely, that you will describe it is less glowing terms than you do right now.

Those who are choosing to stay for the kids get very angry at these kinds of posts. They are sacrificing a lot and do so at the expense of even more.

There are some situations where the children are quite small and the finances simply do not allow for divorce at that moment, but usually with some exit planning and rearranging (and in some cases, waiting until the children are old enough for preschool and elementary school) can make a big difference.

Doing that exit planning while running down the clock can also give the marriage time to improve, while at the same time allowing you to get your ducks in a row.

Its also " cheaper to keep her!"

Thanks, Enna for sharing with us about this. The realisation of this not-easily-to-be-seen issue encouraged me to suggest Boater to share his own experience. Boater's son is 20 now, mine is 3. That's why Boater gave me some head-up bad news.

Glad the dialogue has evolved. That is why we moved the conversation to the public forum. As Moon River said below both of our situations are "good" home environments. My wife has readily said to me - "I think I'm a very good mother, and I recognize I have not been the best wife".

In my situation, my son is 20. The damage has been done. Enna as you point out - we're not talking about sexual encounters, but loving encounters. It is one continuous evolution. A man and wife that have an intimate, secure, loving relationship set a far different model for their kids then a couple that shares a house and chores around the house.

So I'm having the incredibly difficult discussions with my adult son now, trying to explain as subtly as possible - "this is not normal". I'm thrilled that you seek to emulate so much of who I am, but please don't enter into this type of relationship.

I think Smithy references below - "pay now or your kids pay later" - that's where I'm at. For those in the forum that have younger children - play it forward a few years when you're trying to explain this to your adult children. Actions are far more powerful than words. Trying to now recast his distorted view of a man/woman relationship is very, very difficult and uncomfortable.

You do make a very good point. Change. There are certainly situations in which it is simply NOT possible to exit a sexless marriage, even if the refused spouse wishes to do so.

However, this post is NOT addressed to those people. It is addressed to those people who are struggling with the decision to leave because it is "better" for the kids to grow up in a two person house-hold. As has been said before, that is certainly the BEST option for childen - provided their parents have a loving, supportive and respectful marriage.

However, the calibre of sexless marriages (and I have no hesitatiion in including EVERY sexless marriage discussed on ILIASM - because the people who post here really ARE at the end of their tolerance level for the state of their unions) is such that children are NOT best served by growing up in these situations IMO. Because the quality of relationship in the sexless marriage is such that it is NOT a good role model for the children growing up in that marriage.

I feel very sad for, and have huge sympathy for, those who truly want to get OUT but cannot do so for reasons beyond their control. I wish I could say to those people: "Never mind, your sexless marriage is NOT affecting your children." But that is not true - it IS affecting them IMO.

I'm sure it IS hard for parents to hear this - but it is not in their best interests - or their children's best interests - to pretend "everything will be OK".

If you WANT to leave but cannot, you need to do as Change suggests - plan for your exit and simultaneously do whatever you can to improve the situation. That way you are doing YOUR very best to make the situation as positive as possible for your kids. And no-one can do better than their best - even if you feel it is not as much as you WANT to do . . . .

Boater, do you mind saying more about how your son's attitude toward intimate relationships is affecting him now? How the damage is visible to you, what exactly prompts these talks?

My own parents had a loud, unhappy (though not sexless) marriage, and as soon as I could see a future for myself, I vowed to do everything I could to make my own different. They never touched where I could see them -- no affection showed at all, really. My strategy, from teen years on up, was to find a series of affectionate boyfriends.... reactive, I know, but the best adaptation I could come up with. How do you see your son's adaptation playing out, now that he is nearly grown?

DM - unfortunately the signs are everywhere. At 20 he has not yet had a meaningful relationship with a girl. (To provide a bit of perspective - my son is 6'3" about 195, trim, muscular, dark hair, blue eyes, mature for his age, can talk with anyone about anything - I visited him on campus recently, as we walked across campus - virtually every girl we passed, turned...of course I'm a bit biased and hugely proud - but the point, he is attractive to women on sight - and I do know that he is attracted to women.)

When I talk with him about relationships, the telltale response is "I just don't see the need at this point. I have friends in relationships and they just seem to end up hurt, or take up too much time." I respond by saying things like - but you're only seeing the visible/public side of their relationships. There are good times in private - the hugs, someone to share your frustrations with, laugh with - feelings that only a special girl can provide. This is where things get very, very difficult. Because I'm describing something he has never seen. We have also touched on the sexual side of relationships - you want to talk about a challenge...

At times he even says - "but dad, you're a good guy, you've gotten by". (Understand I get text messages from my son telling me how proud he is of me. I don't know if that is normal - but I will say it is humbling.)

So Deb - we all want the best for our kids - we want them to have it better than we did/do. Trying to explain with words what a relationship between a loving man and woman is supposed to be, is extremely difficult. And how do you answer the question - "well that's not you and mom" and you're ok? Do you tell him - well - it is just a facade. I'm miserable. I long for the touch of a woman. At times I'm so sexually frustrated I can't even concentrate? I had an affair that opened my eyes and provided a level of satisfaction I can't quite put into words? I wish you could have been there to see us laughing - enjoying each other, then you'd understand?

Deb - trust me, I don't wish this on anyone. Essentially, we need to tell our kids - do not do what your mom and I did.

See enna's post, above.

My mom really changed my life for the better when she divorced my dad.
...But she was always good at not realizing how abusive he was (and how abusive she herself was).
...If you're "staying for the kids," don't do as my parents did and turn your frustrations on your child, ok?

EVERYONE's kids are "most important" to their parents. Every parent struggles mightily when making choices that will affect their children's welfare. You might be welladvised to consider whether your childsren are ultimately better off living in a dysfunctional situation with two parents, rather than a co-parenting situation with two happy - single - parents . . .

If you had stayed with his mother, who is apparently a "nut case", it may not have made any significant difference to him. And, because you left her, you modelled some very important behaviours to him - that you do not accept being ill-treated and disrespected by the person who is supposed to be closest to you.

You showed him that healthy people live a healthy life without letting an unhealthy person ruin that quality of life.

At twenty he is at the stage where you are likely seeing his most unconnected, rebellious and non-conformist behaviour. I'm willing to bet that by the time he is thirty, you will be much happier about your choice to leave his mother - by then, you will see how his behaviour and personality have been influenced by you as a POSITIVE role model.