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What I Have Learned From Iliasm

I am glad that i stumbled on to ILIASM about 60 days ago. I have read almsot all the stories and assciated comments going back to May 2012 (even some older ones from some of the more active members like bazzar, enna, RRRW, Malvolence, Ocean, Smith etc).
I do think that i have learned some good stuff on this forum. I have laso learned how sex is so much importnat in a relationship. I have alos realized that yes there are instances where getting out of a relationship/SM is he only possible alternative (specially if it is violent and physically abusing). However, i also know that leaving relationship (SM or others ) or getting divorce is normally the worst possible outcome of any situation. Yes my understanding is based on the fact of multiple reaserch done on this topic (specially by Univ. of Chicago study). Yes i do give more credence to real research than just believe on the experience of a few from this forum (may be my PhD in science forces me do that).

I feel that the discussion on the ILIASM is now mostly dominated a few angry and resentful members (20 to 30 people, yes i am looking at you bazzar specially). It appears to me that they are all absolutely hurt and in pain and their way of dealing with their pain is to see that other refused do not have to go through the same pain (which is noble). However, they way they try to acheive it is by only telling the other new comers (Rufused like me) not to take it and turn it around by hurting the refuser in turn (by having affairs, other form of treatment, leaving with discussion or simply divorce). Here is my disaggreement with their suggestions/solutions to the new members:

1) "Why is not importnat"
I never heard this suggestions ever in my life on any issue. It is absolutely necessary to know "why" in ever situation. Because knowing Why guides us to these:
a) Am i doing something in this situation/SM that is causing it. We can not absolve ourselfs of our shortcomings just because we are the refused
b)If i am not responsible then what is the reason? Can we help Refuser see the reason before they can change. And please do not give me the crap that people do not change. My H chnaged. Hell the concept of human evolution is all based on chnage. You will also see in the research below that all the souses in relationship changed.

2) Comments are normally all toward leaving SM now (again i ma looking at you bazzar) as it is the solution to almost every problem. Here is some facts about Divorce:
Will a divorce really make you happier?
A study of unhappy marriages by University of Chicago researchers titled "Does Divorce Make People Happy?" attempts to shed light on that important but difficult question.

Recent longtitudinal studies have reported that most divorced people are no happier after divorce. University of Chicago sociologist Linda Waite analyzed the relationships between marriage, divorce and happiness using the National Survey of Family and Households. She reported that unhappily married adults who had divorced were no happier than those who had stayed married. Here is a summary of the findings:

A) Effect of divorce on indivduals

a) Adults in unhappy marriages who divorced (or separated) weren't any happier than those who were unhappy but stayed married, on average.

b) On average, depression or low self-esteem among unhappily married adults did not improve after divorce.

And the Most Importnat finding is :
c) Two-thirds of adults reporting an unhappy marriage but who avoided divorce reported a happy marriage five years later.

Many currently happily married spouses have had extended periods of marital
unhappiness, often for quite serious reasons, including alcoholism, infidelity, verbal
abuse, emotional neglect, depression, illness, and work reversals. Why did
these marriages survive where other marriages did not? The marital endurance ethic
appears to play a big role. Many spouses said that their marriages got happier, not because they and their partner resolved problems but because they stubbornly outlasted them.With time, they told us, many sources of conflict and distress eased.

B)Effect of dovorce on the family/kids:
a) Divorce is the single most important reason for poverty.
b) there is a long term negative effect of it on the child. Yes they may cope with it but the effect stays there.
c)More than 70% of the kids of divorce parents end up divorcing when they grow up.

Here is a link to the study
http://www.americanvalues.org/UnhappyMarriages.pdf

So now we know that solving the problem is more important than just leaving the problem (Divorce). That is why it is so importnat to know what is creating the problem.

As a side note, this is going to be my last post on ILIASM becuase i am not in SM anymore. We have had SM issues for 5 years, but, then we both realized our issues (mine was controlling and anger management, my H had loss of sexual attraction/drive for me related to my behaviour so he got into **** addition and associated **** related ED). We both went through hell for 5 years but we are not doing much better after therapy (5 months) and now the Sex is back (specially over the last two weeks with twice a week sex).
I did not follow a single negative advice that ILIASM provied to me (why, change through afairs or leaving) . At the sma etime, i did gain some valuable relations/sexual perspective from majority of the the less active members who are all suffering in silence. My advice to them would be to:
a) Do not loose hope. Continue working on why and make the refuser see how it is affecting your relationshsip.
b)Put a timetime with real consequences. It does n't have to be Divorce only.
c) Time heals all the wounds and even this study showed that 80% of the married people were happier after sticking in for 5 years. Leaving in hurry does not fix any real issues or provides long term happiness to people as again the study showed.

Please consider all these.

My sincere thanks and best wishes to all the members in their quest for happiness.
Cheaters12 Cheaters12 41-45, F 46 Responses Feb 10, 2013

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I agree, in cases where the partner is intimacy adverse and dysfunctional, it is pointless chasing after the why because he/she will never be honest with you.

The only solution it seems, as you suggested LynnLee, is the ALL IN OR BUST ultimatum.
Once he realises he has something to lose which is going to affect him directly, all of a sudden, he change.

Unfortunately, majority of the people in ILIASM are people pleasers /codependent /enablers, so cant/wont issue the ALL IN or BUST ultimatum, so the SM goes on and on.
Of course, as Baz suggested, you need a back up plan before you issue the ultimatum and you need to follow it through, otherwise your partner will not take you seriously.

In cases where the spouse is not dysfunctional, the low libido may be link to the prescription drugs they took on a daily basis, like birth control pills, statins, blood pressure drugs Most of these drugs ******** the body of the nutrients the body needs to make testosterone which affects libido or mess up your body in some other way that affect your libido.

The solution may be as simple as taking vitamins/supplements that contain the nutrients that has been ********. There is a book that list all the drugs and its side effects on the body.

My 2 cents worth.

Sorry, ***** - s-t-r-i-p-p-e-d.

I am amazed at how someone with such little experience in a SM can find such strong opinions and ideas to "preach" with such condescension on a subject they have clearly NOT experienced. 5 years? Pllleaassee! The absolute gall of your "know it all attitude" OFFENDS ME and I have just done what you are "preaching" ...

I TURNED AROUND A 30 YEAR SEXLESS MARRIAGE.

There is no set of rules or ideas for people living in SM as to what will work or what wont, but STAYING...is hard as HELL..and for me it was worth it NOW IN THE END,(I hope its the end..every week I hold my breath wondering if things will return to the they way they once were) but the endurance has taken its toll and from this point on its ALL IN OR BUST...for my marriage.

Though I know its possible to get a turn around after 30 years, I WOULD NEVER PRESUME to tell or preach at others (and preaching is my occupation.. fundamental, Bible preacher) in the ILIASM forum that this is possible for them! Every marriage, couple, individuals, mindsets and emotions are DIFFERENT. It takes 2...and if the refuser continues to refuse...might as well hang it up. If the refusers step it up and want change and the refused cant let go of the past...might as well hang it up. It takes both parties FIGHTING LIKE CRAZY...to overcome.

You do not have enough experience or knowledge of sm to earn the right to speak into our lives "call down" others such as Baz with judgement and ignorance. MOST OF US..have been in this for MANY MANY YEARS...WITH NO ANSWER TO WHY...I STILL DONT have that answer..and I have accepted I will go to my grave without the answer to one of the most devastating questions of my life..but guess what? Its OK...hes changing, making effort to love me the way I need to. So I can let go of the question to have the marriage I have desired for 30 years.


Yes it is true Warrior, I got my MIRACLE, but the chances that what has happened for me is possible for all in long term SM correlates clearly with your ideas of " fairy dust and flying off to Neverland". I wish there was tangible fairy dust or magic wands for all my friends who suffer but as Enna always says..it can only happen when 2 are willing and I might add...that is a rarity.

I am going to write my story soon. I know that 3 months turn around on a 30 year SM is still very iffy and questionable to whether it can be sustained, but there is hope.

There were ALOT of negative thoughts and ideas thrown my way when I came to ILIASM...and as one who lived in sm I needed to consider ALL MY OPTIONS..negative and all. I understood the hopeless advice as well. I had/have EMPATHY for where these hurting brokenhearted people live and speak out of....I have lived it. In the end everyone here must read, listen and then do what they feel you must. There should be no slight to Baz or any of the others whose take on SM is hopeless and bleak...it is their reality...which is the scenario for most of those in this forum. Hope is a great thing...but it is usually a very detrimental emotion in SM..that is REALITY. My turn around is rare.

I am sorry for the rant, but people who have the nerve to judge and speak into lives where they have never been irk me.

People need to grow up and realize there is no cookie cutter solution to anything in life!

I hope to find time to write it this week. I have been nervous to write too soon as its such a phenomenal and IFFY thing ...but as 3 months has passed and we have only had 2 "bumps" that were resolved quickly I feel its time. I wish I had a magic wand or fairy dust for the rest of you all. It really boils down to one thing and Enna says it all the time "IT TAKES 2"... Us the refused have tried tried, cried and tried..but without the REFUSER...taking action on their part there is no hope. MY H HEARD ME...FINALLY..after 30 years. He decided he needed to do something or life as we knew it was going to change and he didnt want to lose what we have. THAT IS HUGE..HUGE MIRACLE. After 30 years he FINALLY HEARD ME. I will write more in my story.

Preach it, Sister Lynn!

I'm looking forward to your story too.
Let's see a hopeful one for a change.
Good for you Lynn.

Can you tell I had my 'preach on" lol... My goodness the absurdity of some people. Hope things are going well for you. Give me an update when you can. Im still praying!

Hey, a good Sunday sermon! In all my reading on SM's. I found something by
James Dobson from Focus on the Family. He said pastors should preach on sex in marriage esp. 1 Corinthians 7:3-5. My h sure has never done a sermon on it.

Ok...well let me blow your mind.

When we were youth pastors we did a 4 week series called SAY YES TO GREAT SEX! Our youth group of 120 had 250 attendees the first week! LOL

lol..(tho we were not having any very often) go figure!

And of course, LL828, your "secret ingredient" is PRAY, PRAY, PRAY! :>)

MLS....that is the ONLY SECRET...I wish it were more, but the truth is...
IT IS NOT IN OUR HANDS...or even God's.

We can pray and ask God to deal with our refusers...and God can move upon our partners, convict their hearts and attitudes (if they know God and hear Him) but if THEY THEMSELVES refuse God there is nothing we can do about that...even God cant MAKE SOMEONE CHOOSE something they are not willing to choose.

God knows I have prayed before and I know my h has responded to the prodding of God before but never followed through. Before this last chat with him in November I prayed prayed and prayed..and gave a few days for God to deal with the husband.

More to come when I finally write my story. :)

But LL828... as you well know, praying is not just about asking God to transform our spouse... it is about asking God to transform our marriage. The most difficult thing for me is to lay my stubborn will onto the table as I pray for my marriage and to be open to the very real possibility that God will choose to transform me instead of my wife. :>)

Not to sound "holier than thou" or above reproach because we all have things we can be better at in our relationships, but when it came to the SM part I held NO responsibility in that AT ALL...and my H would tell you or anyone else that.

He in fact told me that he deserved for me to have either divorced or cheated on him by now and that if I had no one could blame me for all he has put me through.

With this last ditch effort to save my marriage and be clearly heard, it was my h was going to be transformed or I was OUT....done and dusted.
I so didnt want it to be that way but that was where I was at.

Thanking God I, we dodged the fatal bullet to this 30 year marriage.

Hope you can express your story soon. I'm one of the other rare ones around here, and like you, have no pretensions whatsoever that I have the answer - that's hugely presumptive and untrue.

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What we need is a study on this group, how many leave their sexless marriage and divorce their spouses.
I'm incline to believe majority choose to stay because most of the people in this group are co-dependents ie., enablers.
C12 must be an enabler too, so she uses studies which support her 'skewed' perception.
In cases where the relationship is so dysfunctional and hopeless then the why does not matter. But in other hopeful cases, knowing the why can provide a solution.
My 2 cents worth

It is very unlikely that knowing the"why" can actually be of use in making the situation better, UNLESS both parties are agreed in this process. IF both partners are equally keen on fixing their marriage AND equally keen on finding a solution, knowing the "why" may be helpful.

But where only one spouse desires to "fix" the marriage, it will not matter what the "why" is - because one person alone cannot change the marriage.

The ONLY time this might work is if the entire "fault" (reason) for the marriage break-down lies with the one trying to fix it. Then he/she can address his/her own issues and Voila! the marriage is fixed.

IMO these are NOT the people who end up on this forum. I suggest that those who post here have (a) tried every possible solution to "fix" their marriage but failed to find the answer, and (b) have a spouse who is NOT interested in "fixing" anything - because she/he is happy with the status quo.

In such situations, knowing the "why" is of no value at all in fixing the marriage. Understanding the "why" might assist individuals in deciding what their next steps should be . . . . But that is also part of the role of the ILIASM group. That is, to help individuals recognise the REALITY of their situations and to act accordingly.

Interesting. Your comments lead me to believe even stronger what I have espoused for many years. There is far more to a relationship than sex. It is my (not so humble) opinion, the that key component is indeed C O M M U N I C A T I O N ! It is said that the brain is by far the most important sex organ.
I (while not a member of this group) have only encouraged leaving a marriage in cases of abuse (be it physical, mental, emotional, financial or any other). Failure to perform sexually is always related to something else. Ignore the problem and it doesn't go away.
Extramarital stimulation solves/addresses nothing but ones own personal selfishness.
(Yes, I am a prude)

It is said that the brain is by far the most important sex organ.
YES YES YES

I thought I'd heard of the institute for American values.
From their mission statement:

http://www.americanvalues.org/intro/mission.php

"Marriage

The family is the seedbed institution of civil society, and marriage is the basis of the family. Across the globe, marriage is the main human institution governing the link between the voluntary spousal association and the biological parent-child association. Marriage is therefore society’s most pro-child institution. In fact, it’s the only institution that brings together the three main domains of parenthood—biological, social, and legal—into one association."

So...I'd gather they have a pro-marriage, anti-divorce organizational bias.

And now an abstract from Britain...
http://ideas.repec.org/p/iza/izadps/dp1788.html

"Using the British Household Panel Survey, we are able to observe an individual's level of psychological wellbeing in the years before and after divorce. Our results show that divorcing couples reap psychological gains from the dissolution of their marriages. Men and women benefit equally. "

From here:
http://www.divorce.usu.edu/files/uploads/Lesson4.pdf

"When individuals end high-conflict marriages, however, they increase their happiness, on average. About two in ten individuals appear to enhance their lives through their divorce, but about three in ten seem to do worse; about four in ten individuals build future romantic relationships but they have mostly the same kinds of problems as they did in their previous marriage."

...So there's research that supports both points of view.
Some people would benefit from sticking it out, yeah.
I'd argue that if you're here, there is a pretty good chance you're just not one of those people. Not 100%, no, but a good majority.

...There certainly would seem to be a strong reason to work on yourself so that you can figure out (a) how to get your needs met in your current relationship, or (b) figure out that you can't get your needs met and end it, then (c) not go on to repeat the same mistakes.

Thanks hylie! It's now my opinion (as of a couple days ago) that cheaters - whether or not she actually is married, is a "she", or what have you - is actually a right-wing, probably fundamentalist-religious "messiah" with an axe to grind and some prosthelitizing to accomplish, and s/he is trying for "conversions", rather than actually addressing any real issues.

I think we should all take cheater's posts/comments with a HUGE grain of salt. It's like arguing for gay marriage with the Westboro Baptist Church members - they have ALL the answers (just don't bring logic or ACTUAL science into the discussion!).

Very smart.

First of all I find it hard to believe you have a PHD in anything. Secondly I don't think many of the situations I have seen in here are of a temporary nature. All the studies in the world don't count for much when you are in an abusive situation and many if not all of the stories here there are other forms of abuse of which the lack of sex is just a symptom. I certainly don't see many people leaving in a hurry. almost all of the cases I have read about here people have tried for years to work out their situation.
I used to be a huge believer in the sanctity of marriage but not any more. It takes two to make a relationship and while everyone fails to hold up their end once in a while, to do so chronically for years at a time is another matter. I was married (still am unfortunately), for 33 years to a verbally abusive woman. The lack of sex with her was just a symptom of many other associated problems. Did I bring my problems to the relationship, yes I did but I was willing to deal with mine and she was not willing to deal with hers.
I only go into these details because they are so typical of the others in this group.I find your analysis of this group and of bazzar in particular to be, how shall I put this ... lame.

See, this is why I don't come here anymore....

Princess DelusionMakesMeSad

Some people, after getting their head out of the sand, simply cannot take reality and chose to stick their head back in the sand again.

Princess, don't take this one basket case as being representative of the valuable help going on around here! I for one miss your astute comments, although I do hope you are moving on to greener pastures for your own sake.

251 responses - as of OceanSun.

That's an 8 to 12 multiplyer over the 20 or 30 habitual re-actionary posters you perceive to be here Cheaters.

And that silent majority you referred to still seem strangely silent.

Tread your own path.

I don't care what anyone says bazzar, you are the coolest and don't seem bitter at all, just realistic and levelheaded. I don't have to tell you to tread your own path because i know you already are and it is a well lit path on a road paved with reason style!

I think C12 thinks she loves her H more than the rest of us for not taking "the easy way out".
She has no idea how many time we've done this dance, too many time to mention,
I am guilty, I'm still here, and I am not winning any mother/wife of year or awards, does that mean I love my H more than the once's who divorced or out sourced?
No it mean that they love them selves more then I do......

It is your life ocean. You have your own choices to make. Leaving is difficult under the best of circumstances. I wish you well.

I haven't quite got my Phd. but I have a Masters and two Bachelors degrees and a slough of other credits. I also wrote a book about sexless marriages and your statistics are BS for the most part except the one about children of divorce and poverty that one is even worse than you quoted. Long term sexless marriages don't get better and people don't get happy after being sexless for long periods of time. The divorce rate shows you what they do they leave for the most part.

There are no guarantees of happiness or that you will find the love of your life after you get a divorce but I've talked to a great many post divorce people whom have left sexless marriages and almost everyone of them believes their lives are better and they report being happier and more hopeful about their futures. Because in a sexless marriage they didn't believe they had a future. As for the WHY it really doesn't matter because it belongs to the other person and there isn't a thing you can do about that. Only they can do or change those issues. In the majority of sexless marriages those WHYS are non negotiable and will not change so in the end they don't matter only their effects matter and the victims have to decide what they are going to do about that. If you have WHYS then you need some work too but that's up to you to do. But you can spend years pursuing those things and that is time you can never get back. It is seldom anything that can be pointed to and say well I can fix this because most of the time the people involved don't have any idea of WHY and just as often they don't care.

Your little oh we fixed it by starting to screw thing just doesn't work and the reason why is that after a long time of being sexless there is no longer any trust or love left because when your marriage is sexless there is rejection and rejection begets anger and anger begets frustration and soon that kills any love that might have existed. Once the love is gone it's over there is no turning back the clock. Sure you can do a mechanical screw but with no love behind it you are still essentially in a dead relationship without any true intimacy. Just going through the motions and that soon gets tiresome and someone will get bored with it and soon the status quo resumes.

The idea that a long term sexless marriage is fixable rates right up there with finding some fairy dust and flying off to Never Never Land. It is so rare that the beast has been rumored but so rarely seen that it is mythical. Some people stay for different reasons I know that well some haven't the courage to leave others have become chained by physical illness, some are bound by co-dependence that hold them fast. Everyone has choices that they have to make for themselves but I have witnessed literally hundreds of people who have come and gone through these portals and never yet have I ever heard anyone who left a sexless marriage say that they wish they had stayed. Statistics are basically useless when it comes to this because for one thing you can never get a true picture about sexlessness because there are so many who will never talk about it. But a 53% divorce rate indicates that there is an extremely high rate of dissatisfaction with marriages and Google says there are 40 million sexless marriages in the US alone so I would venture to guess that the two are closely related. In fact I'm willing to bet you could get your statistical correlation that would take your breath away with its accuracy. But until you come up with a major supply of that fairy dust your statistics don't mean much to the people here who have walked the walked and been beaten to pieces by the dead eyed zombies they have been chained to for so many years.

Have a nice day in Never Never Land.

I love you D

Warriorpoett,

Very simply - Well Done!

WP you wrote a book? That's great!
All I know is if I didn't get out of my marriage i was heading one of two places, the morgue or a mental hospital. It amazes me i stayed with her as long as I did. The only regret i have now is not seeing the dead end street i was on years ago/

You have a bachelors and two masters and you are quoting Google as a source? ;-)

I would expect a post by someone bragging about their credentials to be a little less of a rant and not drift off into fairy dust, but there was good info. For the most part I agree with what you say and appreciate the solid data. Thanks for the post.

Google is just used as an example the sexless marriage number can never really be known for the simple fact that no one can really obtain hard data. The majority of people involved in sexless marriages will never talk about it because of the stigma involved but the mere fact that Google will give you a figure of 40 million sexless marriages and about 360 thousand hits for sexless marriage in itself says that this is a huge problem. The figures you use are reversed by the way it's one Masters and two bachelors.

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I am DEFINITELY happier since my marriage broke up, though of course I am sad about the loss. Everyone who knows me says I seems so much happier, almost transformed. I don't think in 10 years we'd be magically happier, because our problems were not circumstantial, they were based on who we are as people, which is not going to change, now or ever.

It's so easy to cherry pick sociological and psychological studies, which in themselves are usually cherry picked to support the study's thesis. That's why those areas are not considered "hard" science. So as a scientist, I'm surprised you even take them seriously. Most scientists and mathematicians I know are super skeptical of these kinds of self-reporting based studies.

I am really unsure if Cheaters is for real, or just a wind up merchant trying to create a debate.

If the former it is a bit sad really that anyone - especially someone who purports to be educated - could write such tosh. If the latter, then well done as you have achieved your objective.

As someone still in a largely sexless 29 year (in March) marriage, I have hung in there for the sake of the children etc - BUT the cost and the pain to me has been so immense that I would NEVER EVER criticise anyone who took a different route. We all choose our own path and I totally understand why someone would divorce in this situation.

I think most of us come on here to help us understand our difficult situations and I for one have found many posts/posters really helpful as I have made my own decisions. The one thing I don’t think any of us should do is to judge the decisions made by others. In doing so Cheaters you indicate that you really have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

I can't imagine someone who write so sloppy having a PHD. and the cheap criticism was very sad indeed. While I realize the stories on this site do not amount to scientific evidence but what people say here either makes sense or it doesn't and i will take that over research papers any day.

I enjoyed this post, not so much for its content, but for the avalanche of articulate and reasonable responses it has generated. This forum really is an awesome group of very intelligent people who offer sound advice and who can also spell.Cheaters: I admire your positive outlook, but I bet you will find yourself back in the SM category in the not too distant future. I wish you the best and hope I'm wrong.

Cheaters12,
In regards to your story and comments I think you must have skipped through quite a few of the messages, posts and stories on ILIASM. I must say I have always tried to be nice, using the rule if you don't have something nice to say don't say anything at all. Maybe that is why I am here. Notice my name on this forum, I am changing just as your story talks about. I am trying to dig through the bs in my life and find solutions. I have so many things to say I cannot think what I want to respond to first. At the top of my list is your comments about Baz (negative and resentful? Now?) and the others you mentioned, who go out of their way it seems to me to make comments that are encouraging, supportive, and helpful. You did not read enough. Their comments do not seem like negative advice to me. They say look at your situation and face it head on. First most are here because they had a problem (except for a few trolls most come here looking to see what they can find out about sexless marriage either to improve or escape) and then decide how they are going to handle it. You can accept it, decide to outsource your sexual needs or decide to divorce. I am sorry that you seem to think that these people came up with these options, not so, these are the options in a sexless marriage. If you are having sex in your marriage, then you are not in a sexless marriage are you? I am not trying to be mean or rude or ugly, just saying, if you are having sex then you are not sexless? Am I wrong? Forgive me for my errors I am not as educated as it appears most of the others here. I have yet to get my BA although it is close, much lest a PhD, it appears it does not necessarily make some smarter just more hard to get along with.
At the top of my list, your story seems based quite a bit on these "studies". I will not dwell on the fact that no one here in this forum was asked to be in a part of any study. (already mentioned) just some things to think about. (from an under-educated layperson) I am just thinking out loud here. Have you ever been asked a question on a survey or study and not told the absolute truth? Ever lied? Most of the time when I have taken surveys I skim through them and just hit the average answer. If someone were to ask on a survey - (unless it was here with my "peers") about my marriage and sex life I would lie. I know my husband would lie. He cannot even acknowledge to me or himself how long it has been since we have had sex. I think a lot of your information is flawed. No disrespect to you. It is just hard to acknowledge the truth. Especially in a survey or study.
Things I have a problem with
Adults married, divorced or single face depression and or low self-esteem every day, the situations that could cause depression or low self-esteem are so varied really it doesn't really matter we could skew the numbers very easily, just because depression is at epidemic levels.
The effect on the children. I have been married almost 30 years. My children are grown or at least they appear so, the youngest in college. One told me they had never seen their father and I ever appear to have any kind of sexual contact (not that they would have wanted to) one told me they knew we had kissed sometime somewhere or at least they had assumed or possibly were they test tube babies? When I think of the picture of a happy marriage that I have given them I feel a deep sense of regret.
The why? I admitted I am part of the problem. I worked on my problem areas. My H has several problems - I am not going to go into all of them but the biggest one to me is that he is not into having sex with me. I guess to him that is my problem. Not his. He has no problems in that area - (remember the survey questions ?)
Wait five years huh?
OK well how about ten? I have waited ten now. I just got to thinking that after 7 years indentured servants were released, thinking about the statute of limitations for all 50 states is 10 years or less except for Kentucky (not my state).
So although I am in a sexless marriage now thanks to coming here a year ago and reading all these posts and stories I am working on my exit plan. Planning to leave my sexless marriage where I have a great relationship with my husband (who I love with all my heart as my friend, family member and the father of my children) everything is perfect except for the sex....
In regards to your situation, I wish you the best of luck. Oh and please do apologize to Baz he is kind of right you know. You did listen to them.....in case you did not realize you picked option No. 1.

Hey good luck with the BA. I know I never thought I would ever finish mine but it does end eventually. I have a second bachelors and am close to my masters but I learned a long time ago there is a big difference between being educated and being smart. The more education I get, the more i realize how much more there is to know and it keeps me humble. When people tell me I am smart I just tell them I am persistent and hard working.

After reading your "story" and the comments that have ensued, I have come to the conclusion that you are inept in your "attempt" to be an authority in this ILIASM forum. You clearly lack a realistic understanding of a sexless or near sexless marriage. Your remarks are arrogant and mean spirited and seemingly directed at members who have done nothing but unselfishly share their own experiences with this community of people that are in very real, hurtful, unhappy relationships. Studies are like the media ... it all depends on who is giving the so called "facts", What prompted me to respond at all tonight, was the fact that there are women and men out there suffering in these real-life marriages, and they need to feel comfortable enough to share their stories without criticism, here on ISIASM. Lastly this quote from the study really irks me ... "Many spouses said that their marriages got happier, not because they and their partner resolved problems but because they stubbornly outlasted them. With time, they told us, many sources of conflict and distress eased" OK, stubbornly outlasted the problems ... that is the ridiculous Stubborn:1. contrary, intractable, refractory, unyielding, headstrong, obdurate.I write the above with all due respect to the story teller.....

I don't want my children to stay married in a marriage like mine was. So that one I guess I took as a reason to divorce, not stay.

Okay I checked out the site and the organization. I question the validity of many of the facts 'portrayed' quite honestly. I couldn't find a good 'spread' set of scholastic studies or sources that would be representative of 'solid' research as I understand it from my days earning my degrees. They have an impressive board of directors and certainly the staff has impressive credentials, but again... no 'spread' on the scholastic side of the equation. The numbers look very 'biased' quite honestly based on my research into literally dozens of studies done on marriage and divorce amongst many different countries across multiple organizations. For instance the Journal of Marriage and Family (JMF) is one of the most highly respected research publications in the field (including citations from Harvard Medical school, NEJM, etc.) and the numbers for these factors you quote are radically different then you posted. Not questioning your motives or 'honesty' just questioning your sources really.

Oh, I would question cheater's motives... based on all the facts...

Cheaters you owe Baz an apology. Do it. And do it NOW. I am seriously annoyed by your personal attack on the man I love. Your assessment of him is completely inaccurate and highly offensive.

Geez have you been drinking the local water up there again Bubbo ? Say g'day to the kid(s) for me.

Nup! Just seriously pissed!! (pissed off that is!)

It only takes one to dissolve a marriage.

Whose wife do you want to hear from? Cheaters12 is a woman or claims to be.

No, I chose to dissolve my marriage. My ex would have continued on with his abuse and mistreatment if I had let him. I made that choice. It takes two to choose to get married and one to decide to no longer be in it.

If you are talking about Baz's wife, well, Enna's the closest thing he's got to that as far as I am aware.

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I am divorced after being in ILIASM for about a year. I am MUCH happier, I no longer have to deal with a narcissist who married with an agenda and never changed. Most of the stories shared here are from people who are in hopeless situations and for whom getting out is the only situation..

This is hilarious. Love it. My personal perspective:



"a) Am i doing something in this situation/SM that is causing it." Well, probably I was, but hell, how would I have known? The P/A ex wouldn't talk about anything. We even went through multiple marriage counseling sessions where he sat in complete silence. I'm supposed to guess?



"b)If i am not responsible then what is the reason?" ... See a) above.



and from later in the post ...



"a) Adults in unhappy marriages who divorced (or separated) weren't any happier than those who were unhappy but stayed married, on average." This adult was incredibly happy and relieved to separate and divorce. Followup poll 3 years later: ditto.



"b) On average, depression or low self-esteem among unhappily married adults did not improve after divorce." Improve? Yes, about 1000%.



"c) Two-thirds of adults reporting an unhappy marriage but who avoided divorce reported a happy marriage five years later. " Let's see. I endured 12 years of SM. That's almost 2.5 X 5 years. No improvement, no happy. Yep, leaving was the right answer for me. Others might have stuck it out 15 or 20 years and seen a sudden improvement.



No kids so the last set of pronouncements don't apply.




Oh, and "PhD in science"? Sure. We'll go along.

Burn!

I found that one a bit odd myself... my degrees are in Biology and Chemistry... not 'science'...

My sister has a PhD and I think she's an idiot.

Esjey,
If everyone in your family has a history with divorce/SM relationship then please first look at your family history and learn something from it.

Again, C12, you are acting as though the act of divorce is a moral sin. It's not. For many people it's a growth experience and they come out so much happier and more whole than ever before. Both of my parents are happier, more authentic, more genuine and better parents to me than they ever were when I was a kid.

There is so much judgment in your posts that it makes me suspect you have a strongly religious background instead of a strongly scientific one.

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BTW this forum has 35thousand members, has anyone here ever been asked to take a survey from any University????? I haven't....

Nope

Actually someone did take a survey, let me paste it cause it's lost in the this thread:


rob31rob31

I only have a BS but I conducted my own study and it says that a marriage that is full of anger and a **** addicted husband that has ED is definately a marriage that cannot be healed in two weeks. 1 out of 1 people in my survey agree with me.

I actually have forwarded this forum to a professor who has written scientific articles on SMs - she said "thanks" and then nothing more. That was when we had less than half this many members (BTW I joined between 8-9k).

You've done a good thing here Cheaters12.

Thus far you have elicited 120 responses from the membership, which gives you a broader base to consider than the "20 or 30 angry resentful people" you percieve to be re-actionary habitual posters on here. Something like a increase factor of 4 to 6 fold. (probably a bit less as there have been a few 'double ups')

Tread your own path.

Why are you so angry Baz??? Jeesh take a pill!

It's hard you know, with all this anger I got................

You could add a splash of Angostura for extra bitterness.

cheers!

All the members who comment on here, can only speak from their own frame of reference.
We are the only ones who have walked in our shoes.
I probably shouldn't be part of this group, as i would be classed as a "success story " because i am out of the deep hole that my marriage once was. My husband and i are back to a good place , for 12 months now. But we still have our moments !
The reason i'm still here is that i would never consider my marriage to be immune from slipping backwards into the S.M. that it had been.The fear doesn't go away.
I hope that yours continues on the path to happiness , but don't be fooled into thinking it's all good from here.
I don't believe that divorce is the answer for all , but it is for some. We all know when enough is enough.
I also fear that future relationships can end up with the exact same problems as the first one , of maybe even worse .
Hope it works out for you.

- absolutely: sociological research clearly indicates that divorce leaves two people worse off than they were before. Materially.
- all 'normal' relationships go through highs and lows and if there are *two* people involved and engaged in the relationship then the relationship will, or at least can, persist.
- and then there is, as many people have already pointed out, the stalled-car on the train tracks scenario. Valid. I am a proponent of working on relationships. I am a proponent of personal growth and change. I am also a proponent of "save your sorry arse if you're about to be run over by a charging bull, and get away from the sinking ship or you risk being sucked under and drowning when it goes down". The "WHY" becomes completely irrelevant in that situation - you can go to physics class later.
- there is a difference between a marriage between two people who desire a working marriage (never mind the arguments and problems they're having) and a marriage between one person and their dream, between a sociopath desiring a slave and a co-dependant, an inert blob looking for a mother to wipe his/her botty and spoon feed them porridge, an addict and their enabler. THOSE are what we often see here, and those are the cases where those of us with the skill set to recognize a catastrophe in the making take the "get the hell out" route. You cannot co-operate with somebody who is not prepared to un-be the immovable object. Most people who have the personality problems you confess to are a) not prepared to recognize or acknowledge them b)even perceive them and c) the least bit interested in change because theirs is the One True Way of doing things. Which brings me to my conclusion:
- it is the sheep's way to repeatedly bash it's head into a solid wall until either the wall goes down or the sheep falls unconscious. Some of us are able to learn from that and learn better problem solving solutions, some are not.

I like the idea of looking at the statistics and studies... but from what I found is 2nd marriages do not have a higher divorce rate. They last an average of 14.5 years opposed to an average of 20.8 years for first marriages, presumably because they start later in life. This is a good article in the Wall Street Journal about the topic:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904106704576580652976268350.html

Here is another stat for second and third marriage:
past statistics have shown that in the U.S., 50 percent of first marriages, 67 percent of second, and 73 percent of third marriages end in divorce.

http://www.divorcerate.org/

Cheaters, the site showed According to enrichment journal on the divorce rate in America:
•The divorce rate in America for first marriage is 41%
•The divorce rate in America for second marriage is 60%
•The divorce rate in America for third marriage is 73%

I'm not sure how ligit the enrichment jounal is, but even if it is, our life expectancies are MUCH longer. That means if people don't pick the right person the first time, when they're young, or if they both change as they get older they stay in a marriage 40-80 years together unhappy. Wow!

Also, these stats should take into account the outliers, but don't. How many people do you meet that are on their 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th+ marriages? They are not many but they scew the statistics. Obviously, they were habitual divorcees. I personally saw my parents divorce when I was 4 & remarry and they are much happier for it. They were better parents to me because of it. I can't imagine my natural parents being married or how much they would've messed me up because of it.

FYI, I have never been married. I want to marry and stay with that person for the rest of my life. However, when I look at my many friends who married, most have been better off in their 2nd marriage. They married in their 20's and changed into completely different people in their 30's or 40's. Since remarrying with a much better knowledge of what fits, they're marriages are doing wonderfully 5-10 years later. I saw major cracks in first marriages start to become obvious within 2 years of their marriage. You are smarter later in life.

Esjay, yes, I saw those stats too. There are about a million factors that can increase chances of divorce. I also read that the children of divorced single mom's are 75 times more likely to commit murder. 75 times what?!

It depends on the couple, their values, and their ability to love and respect each other for years. Compatiblity and respect. Staying in a bad marriage is worse than divorcing, even for kids, unless poverty is involved. Intelligent parents, who can afford it, can give thier children a better life apart than together in a not real love & respect marriage.

I'd heard that figures don't lie, but liars can figure

All the Data and Stats are incorrect!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The only thing that is absolute is what you feel !!!!!!!!!!!!

Way to go to find solutions.

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Just Posted The Following to Cheaters Whiteboard:

Hi Cheaters: Please know I wish you well. So, I hope you take my comment in the spirit it is intended in. I believe that most people on ILIASM are kind so, I don't understand why you decided to lob a grenade at them and run. Although some of the advice I have received on this forum does not pertain to my situation, I have found that the vast majority of members are trying to be constructive. Your story seems as though it was intended to single people out and attack them for their commentary on ILIASM. I hope that you will come back to your story, read the responses to it and clarify. Isn't that what discourse is about? If you choose not to respond, my guess is that members will regard you not only as an angry, but also, as a cowardly individual.

Yes all the refused ones on this blog are perfect with no flaws that's we do not need to learn why. That is my only issue. I am yet to come across a single individual who accepted some responsibility in the dysfunctional relationship except me.
Does anyone believe in this :
Person's behavior is a function of persons personality and his/her environment.
When you remove the why you are basically removing environment out of the equation and make everything about that person only. And I do not agree with that as I know my H.

No one is perfect , we can all take some of the blame, no matter what side of the SM we are on.

What the h-e-double-hockey sticks have you been reading around here, C12?

Just this past week there's been EinEngels entire story and comments centred on the refused "why"; there's been endless forum topics on "how we got here" and "why" for the refused; I've posted in my own stories about my own behaviour and past that got me into SM; and countless others have in their stories.

You are pretty delusional.

I am guilty. I have stated on many occasions. I blame myself often for husband not wanting me. I have admitted to trying to fill the void left by lack of communication with husband with internet chat rooms and friends met there. I have acknowledge a weight gain. I am not innocent. I am guilty of stuffing my feelings and avoiding confrontation at every turn. Every relationship takes 2 people. Both people need to work on it, both people need to want a good relationship.
I believe that much of what Cheaters said is accurate. However, much of what Baz said is true too. The bottom line is: we must be aware of the possibilities of what lies ahead and choose our own path.
In my life, we've tried therapy. I've put my thoughts out there. I've worked on being bolder with presenting my expectations, however minimal have been discussed. He is content. I am unhappy and he is apathetic. This is my reality. This forum has been a terrific way for me to vent. Heal... think and I still have have no idea what I I'm going to do. NO one here is the authority... and I think most of us are intelligent enough to think for ourselves and make decisions that are right for us.
Support... friendship and empathy are what most of us need. Period.

Oh, I don't know. Perhaps you should read a bit of mine. I think I was just posting that back to Enna30 a few days ago, things I did.

Btw, I DO understand your observation of the group at large, to a degree. And others who have had progress in their marriages (beyond a couple weeks) who I correspond with privately have also expressed some disappointment with the reception to their advice. The "save your marriage" stuff is always more complicated than the "pull the plug" stuff.

Taking another throw of the dice and starting over alone and eventually with another partner is a perfectly acceptable answer if your partner won't join you and refuses to grow, or blocks your growth. We all have our trigger points where we can be pushed too far. I suspect mine would have the same as Baz's, actually. But that didn't happen in my case.

In market research, I was fascinated by the tendency of folks who make a purchase that requires a significant investment to urge others to make a similar purchase decision. It's comforting (and human nature) to have one's decision affirmed by others and to even urge others to make the same difficult choice.

Across the board, you will see various folks talking about their own experiences with the choices they eventually made.

Rather than getting into the tactical level nitty gritty (ie leave your partner) I suggest stepping back and looking across at a number of people who have had positive results here. All of them have some common threads.

Cheaters12, you are full of **** if you say you have been reading here for months and then turn around and say that none of us here take any responsibility for any dyfunction in the marriage. I can't even tell you how many here claim at least some culpability.

If I got a penny for every time i read "don't own it all" or "stop beating your self"
I'd be rich, and still angry. BTW MissLee calm down, you're makin me nervous.

Guys, C12 is a troll of the highest magnitude. I would almost say she is leonatan after they deleted her except, believe it or not, C12's spelling and grammar are better than leonatan's.

No need to take this one seriously. She doesn't take what we share seriously so we should return the favor.

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Cheater -

It would seem that your post has elicited ample feedback from a broad range of posters - frequent and not so frequent. While my comments will likely be redundant of many already posted, I'll add my perspective just the same, based on my observations and people that I have had the pleasure to interact with during my admittedly short 30 day or so association with this forum.

I have yet to read a post or story from anyone that implies essentially, "gee haven't had sex in awhile, I think I'll get a divorce". Quite the opposite is true. People here seem to be hurting. Pouring their hearts out looking for an answer that will make it all work out. Struggling to resolve their relationship because in many cases they feel like everything is ok, it is just the sex.

I think posters like Baz and Enna and so many others do bring a dose of reality to those of us that think, if I simply set the right mood, say the right thing, wink the right way, or as you've suggested, read the right university study, I will achieve a level of sexual bliss heretofore unknown to mankind.

Ah, if it were just that easy. Perhaps I'll try an experiment this evening - I'll print out the UC study, and sit and read it with my wife of 28 years. If I don't comment back, in the next 24 or so hours, it is probably because we are having a romp to make up for the last 13 years of no intimacy.

Cheater, I'm torn between thinking you are tragically naive or vicious and heartless, in which case, I do feel for your husband and would recommend he "get the hell out as quickly as possible".

Naive - because surely you cannot believe that you've gone sexless for five years, and have now read a study, have had sex twice in each of two weeks and you now have a "complete" marriage.

Vicious and heartless, because every post I have read in this forum, (not EP at large) is sincere. Your post seems to make light of what we have lived for many years. If that is your intent, you are one sick individual.

Divorce seems to be the solution of last resort for almost everyone on this forum. No one takes it lightly, without fully understanding the implications and ramifications. That is why we are here. We are hoping to find an answer, or if that step becomes necessary, support through that very difficult life event. Again, posters that have lived it and chosen that path at times help to ground those of us that still, as I put it in one of my stories remain "hopelessly hopeful."

If you have read a study, had sex four times over the last two weeks and truly have achieved wedded bliss - then I apologize and congratulate you. Perhaps peace in the Middle East is attainable after all. We just haven't asked the right person to mediate it.

All the best -

The peace in the Middle East was almost achieved during CLinton's presidency before first Arafat And then following Israel's leaders after Simone Perez and yitzak Rabin took different route of solving problem by annexing jerusulam.

So it is niavity. Well I suppose that is far preferable.

Deflecting an issue or a topic of discussion by concentrating on an extraneous detail isn't naive, Boater.
Unfortunately, it is something that many people here in iliasm are exposed to every day by aggressive-passive or gas-lighting controlling spouses however.

Seems so refuser like. Interesting. I get a lot of discomfort with our vulnerability and honesty in C12's posts. It's almost like us being honest about our thoughts, feelings, choices is so offensive that she has to prove us all wrong for having those thoughts... and in doing so I suppose maintains those refuser-like walls that keep her from being vulnerable or empathizing vulnerably.

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Perception is *always* 100% reality. If you see "angry" people here, like Bazaar, then that's what you see. My perception is opposite: he's kind of the "tough love," logical guy. And had he let me get away with my ****, I'd be in the thick of it still.

Well, I *am* in the thick of something. But since the end of December, it's a different "place." It's less about simply accepting that I'm mired in ****, and actually doing something about it.

We are accountable for our actions, our choices. How we choose to react to a sexless marriage is a matter of choice and personal responsibility. Whatever that decision is, I respect people for being proactive, for *doing* something, and being clear about their choice and the consequences.

Um byee!

As a scientist you quote one scientific study and one one case example that you are familiar with, ie you, and then proceed to make a simple and flawed all-encompassing assertion that also includes accusing others of making sweeping statements that they have not actually made and accusing them of emotional states that you have inadequate evidence of.

As a non-scientist I will EXCLAIM that is just bad science.

By the way, I would also ASSERT that your controlling, impatient nature is still very much alive. Keep working at it, less you find yourself back at square one, sooner rather than later.

I think it's alive and well, as evidenced by this very story. Hehee... I used 'evidenced' correctly in a sentence. Does that mean I can get my PhD in Science too?

I think the reason this board is so well attended and prolific and dynamic is not just because of the weighty topic and the number of people trapped in this situation, but because there are leaders here who move things along and provide a bit of framework. Spend some time on other experiences here and you will see it is just a collection of people throwing up into the ether--a giant putrid sounding board that doesn't help anyone get to resolution. Whether you like or don't like what people say here, you are sure to get real opinions. You are free to take the advice or not. But the people posting here are worth their weight in gold. I think calling out Bazaar by name is crappy and cowardly, especially when you say it and run-- "this is my last post ..." Jab and run. Pathetic.

agreed...
bazz is one of the most rational voices
i have heard in quite some time...
consistent also