Post

An Affair (Rule) To Remember

Sorry, I will let all you men throw your rotten tomatoes at me, but here is some advice for the ladies from the sexless marriages who have decided to outsource. This is going to sound harsh to my male EP friends but to hell with it. 

Ladies ---

The numbers are way way in your favor.

If a male outsourcing partner is not willing to go through the trouble of making arrangements, paying for the hotel and so forth, move on.  Really.  Don't let your bruised self esteem that you got from your sexless marriage tell you that you should be picking up the tab or being patient with his indecisiveness, anything like that.

He wants sex?  Make him arrange it all.  Because behind him are 10 to 13 other guys who can also take care of your physical needs and are willing to do so.

Lesson - Women from sexless marriages often have self esteem issues and if they are not careful they will let those issues creep into the relationship with outsourcing partners. 
Don't.  Okay?  And remember what you are after.  Outsourcing.  Not love.

Postscript - I had no idea posting this story as advice for women in sexless marriages would bring on such a barrage of comments from people outside of ILIASM.  I only did not want any women who are from sexless marriages to make the same mistakes I have made, because then the risk is that the outsourcing exercise makes the whole loneliness, alienation, and self esteem issues worse than they were beforehand.  Fortunately that was not the outcome for me, but it could have been. 
To all those women in sexless marriages who have emailed me after reading this post - For what it is worth, I have found  my personality and cognitive tendencies to be incompatible with outsourcing (for instance I am quite introverted, so all relationships, even affairs, are "work" to me).  Other things, like learning new skills and working, teaching things to my young daughter, actually bring me more fulfillment.  The one pleasant by-product of outsourcing though, is that it did help me reclaim my sense of self, of womanliness, and attractiveness, but there is no need for me to carry on outsourcing now that those elements have been restored.  Outsourcing, also, ironically, made my marriage more tolerable.  Somehow it helps to know that the lack of affection and intimacy is not about "you".  And the men?  I consider them both to be friends and great conversationalists.  I hope they want to stay friends, but we shall see.

There we go.  This posting will have been worth it if it helps one woman in a sexless marriage.  Your self esteem might be in the tank, but you can reclaim it this way or in other ways.  Just make sure that if you go the outsourcing route you do not bend over backwards to make things happen, the way you probably have been doing in your marriage.

Peace and Light,
The Engel
EinEngel EinEngel 46-50, F 156 Responses Feb 11, 2013

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That all sounds fair enough to me .... I find nothing to be offended about :)

Wow why are men so 'offended' by this post? Someone just blatantly stating the obvious is... what... hateful? Condescending? Or just... right? Seems like the author just understands the exact reason I cannot fathom why women let themselves suffer in a sexless marriage indefinitely. Women have all the power in the 'gender war' when it comes to sexual activity in our culture; as, quite honestly, it should be. Honestly at this stage in my life I would treasure a woman who just wanted a really enjoyable period in her life spent with someone who enjoyed everything about her without needing, or even wanting, to deeply intertwine their lives with hers. As the saying goes... 'Testify Sister!'
Sie sind ein wahrhaftiger Engel!

Women have all the power ... uummmm, no, no we don't!!!
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In any sexless relationship, it is the refused who has the power and control ... if they don't want to be intimate and we do, you can guarantee that there will be no intimacy or it will be "pity" sex! Neither option is a winner for the person who craves intimacy, whether it is the man or woman in the relationship.

What I meant by that comment that in our culture both legally and socially amongst adults it is the female who dictates whether sex is going to happen or not as far as 'approval' goes. Basically while a man can 'refuse' to have sex with a female it is her option whether sex is 'on the table' or not.

Come on be honest... who, the vast majority of the time, initiates a 'dating' relationship? Yes the paradigm has changed a bit in that it isn't completely unheard of for a woman to ask a man out on a date, but what do you think the ratio is? 994 - 6 out of a thousand maybe first dates initiated man to woman? Ergo in those 994 instances she controls whether the 'dating' process begins; which, let us admit, is basically whether or not she intends to even give the man the opportunity to present himself as a sexual partner. Ergo for a woman to find a sexual partner it is FAR easier than for a man. All she has to do is show willingness and she has pretty much the pick of multiple partners.

In a sexless/loveless relationship the 'refuser' is using the equivalent of emotional and physiological blackmail against the 'refused' and only occurs after a relationship is relatively well-established. Again though at that point... how much easier is it for a woman to have an affair than a man? She, again, only really has to show she is willing and multiple partners again become an option. Men... not so much. In fact, for a married man the odds become worse than for a single man.

Don't get me wrong though. A sexless/loveless relationship or marriage is honestly I think emotionally and psychologically a bit more damaging to a female than a male. For similar reasons honestly. We're more conditioned from an early age to be refused by women, thus we're a bit more 'armored' against it. Which, honestly, is also why our ego is both stronger and more fragile/brittle than a females in most cases. Women often think of men as more 'egotistic' when the reality is we need to be to 'buffer' our self-esteem against the repeated rejections we face before we find a date/mate.

I don't think you're right at all, I think men hurt just as much as women. We are all human and "conditioning" doesn't mean that men hurt any less. I have had numerous men email me privately about their sexless relationship ... just to talk, not for any other reason. They all feel the hurts that I feel through being rejected, rebuffed, refused.

Oh believe me we're talking minute increments here and both genders suffer greatly in a sexless marriage/relationship (I know I certainly did!). I only say that because I too have had conversations with the opposite gender about their sexless relationships. The one factor I see almost universally with women is the 'something must be wrong with the way I look/I'm unattractive' concern that most guys don't really have as a major talking point. For us it is mostly what the hell is wrong with her/what am I doing wrong? That is what I meant. Women tend to put the blame more upon themselves accurate or not than men do and that is far harder on one's self-esteem in my mind.

Okay this I agree with! As a woman who is refused I have assessed my myriad of flaws and admonished myself for not being thinner and not being pretty enough, for my house not being perfect, etc etc ad infinitum. Of course, initially I thought it was my fault that my partner wasn't attracted to me. It is only through my experiences in the ILIASM forum that I have come to real use that it's not me who has the problem with intimacy, it's him! ;o)

That is "realise" not real use ... stupid smart phone, giggle giggle!!!

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thank you, exactly what i needed to be reminded of

I am in a sexless relationship, but outsourcing is not for me either. However, I will say that when I was fighting breast cancer, I was not in a space which allowed me to commit to a full on relationship.
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I still wanted to date, go out, have fun with lovely men, so I went online and found that you are absolutely correct about those men to women ratios. I didn't ever spend time with men who were married or in relationships, but due to my online presence, I did find three lovely men to spend time with over a period of two years or so that I was doing my cancer treatments.
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All three were like your experience, great conversationalists, all treated me like a princess. Financially, sometimes we went Dutch, and other times they treated me, or I treated them, but in the end it was all pretty even I think (I like to pay my own way!).
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I didn't fall in love, I just wanted great company, lots of laughs and fabulous sex. Happily I found three great men who I spent a between 3-7 months with before the "friends with benefits" relationships were ended on a happy, mutual note for really valid reasons.
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It was just what I needed at that time in my life, and I support your experience of outsourcing, and if that is what other women in ILIASM relationships want or need to do, then go for it ladies. We all deserve to be treated well, to be desired, to be cherished, to be a little wild when we want to. Maybe outsourcing will fulfill your needs ... so glad it worked for you EE!

Yes, for some of us, outsourcing was "what we needed at the time", and it served its purpose. Also glad it worked out for you too!

Yours is an encouraging report for sure, but it is rooted in the most profoundly subtle sanity -- wtf people of all sorts don't get it is mind-boggling; "we all deserve to be treated well, to be desired, to be cherished, to be a little wild when we want to be." Not much more needs be said -- I'd like a bumper sticker that reads precisely as you've stated. Just to be wanted in that way! Why not? Thank you!

I will have to go into the bumper sticker printing business ... it does capture what I would like in my relationship, and that which is currently (and sadly!) missing! ;o) Thanks for the happy feedback!!!

Well thank you more for straight shooting! I can't all that often say I can relate but in this case it was a bullseye! By the way the moniker -- solitaire and diamond evoke intrigue. I know solitaire and the conditions under which diamonds are formed (though on the basis of my purchasing power I'll never manage to be a 'girl's best friend). It is a curious conjunction your chosen namesake.

Solitaire is also a diamond setting. It could be more complicated than that, though. It's not my name, after all! ;)

thanks for the explanation -- I recall now the expression in Jewelry ads. I'm just overthink things . . .. In any event hope you score a gargantuan size one of those!

Don't go putting grand ideas in poor Papaya's head!

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Very enlightening to read. Something to consider...

Thr roots that cause one partner to withdraw are varied but as a man in a sexless partnership,(Not married),I do know that many aspects come to light when dealing with a partner who turns away when I lean in to kiss,who elbows my ribs when I wish to hug...or frowns at my attempts to make humor,(Englishman in Paris). I read about many couples in the jungle of trying to find out what makes it all tick,saw that many women were already angry before linking up with men,and that many men had already been screwed up by their mothers,creating frustration and guilt that seeped over into what was supposed to be a plain sailing relationship.......but then I thought about how we are all Kinesthetic,Visual or Auditive.....aha! yes!You see,choosing a partner is supposed to be a natural thing,something that simply clicks,but there are surprises after the wild days of euphoria have passed and the true nature of someone emerges.Look closely again at your partner and try to notice if he looks at you as he's listening,or looks away as he's listening....same for men reading this,well you'll know immediately that if you're not being tightly hugged as you speak that he's certainly not Kinestetic first on the list......which means that your partner is Auditive first,Visual second and Kenestetic way down on the bottom of the list. Maybe this explains why endless hours are spent in front of a blaring screen,sports,music or wargames on game platforms.....sex being just a bucket into which we,(I am not talkingt for myself),empty our daily tensions into.Men also suffer from something that many women don't see,'Social Castration'...just look at the symbols given 30 years ago in cinema and TV,then compare them to now....the big hairy,muscular,fearless hunk is unemployed....enter center stage the soft spoken,understanding,intellectual geek that doesn't even seem to have a bulge in his pocket when the bouncing breasts of a giggling woman loom into view at a noisy cocktail party!<br />
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Now put all that into the context of a marriage,with religious norms,family expectations and the 'Desperate Housewife'....'Sex In The City' programs that contaminate us all daily.....at work with it's fierce competition and the mad race we endevor as we drive through traffic........guys and girls are simply emptied,dismantled into empty shells of what once was............now sprinkle a little intimacy onto the trembling fear of 'Will I get it up?'....and you have a soldier standing before you without a gun,just the uniform,his muddy boots and a dented helmet....a pathetic sight for any woman who's moist intentions wish to be filled!<br />
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I as an insatiable Kinesthetic,Visual Auditive am faced with the contrary problem....I simply never stop touching,looking and talking...I'll comment on how wonderful she looks,sometimes offer advice on her style,touch her and talk with her....but she'll back away because her thing at the top of the list is to 'See',then 'Listen'....and finally 'Touch'. <br />
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It's all upside down! I did more than 'Outsource' as she was the result of my 'Outsourcing'.... a wonderful Mistress that I showered with gifts and undying attention.....then after I'd committed and offered 3 beautiful offspring....zloop! ,(An invented word that describes zero interest in sex or affection,also the vision of a soft flaccid male organ on a cold Sunday morning!).<br />
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You did mention that you were shy,but men are the worst for hidden shyness,they need constant encouragement and appraisal,in the absence of which....they simply implode and sink into the boggy marshes of indifference.....no,I'm not flagging all the women that need affection and have decided to take on a lover or companion,no I'm not bandaging the wounded men that are using laziness as an excuse to neglect their darling wives.........all I want to point out is that mechanically we are sometimes incompatible before we even meet...sad but true!<br />
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Finally on the financial front,I have had the pleasure of wining and dining my wonderful female partners....and nearly had fights when the bill comes at the end of a meal...who will pay? <br />
"No! we'll take my car...",she'll insist,(It's over now for men to try the 'Breakdown in the middle of no-where' trick,because one,she'll know how to fix the problem,two,cars don't just stop today,and three,you can call a breakdown truck from the middle of no-where and leave the stricken car where it is!). <br />
I've partners that will shower me with gifts,even envelopes stacked tight with fresh banknotes...the more I refuse and resist,the more she'll insist......it does however act as an aphrodisiac when a woman foots the bill,but it doesn't stop me from opening the door for her either!....it does also boost her 'Self-Esteem' too,not forgetting to be quiet when she begins to talk,(Very important for mutual balance).<br />
Financially,women are totally independant,powerful and have the freedom of choice more than ever today,and they too like men,need to show that status,being paid for is a condescending act that is linked with fending for a child....I never argue anymore on that point.<br />
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So to conclude my dear Engel....you have given some brilliant advice here,but not just for women in a sexless marriage.....but for us men too who also live in a sexless partnership....and for those who aren't yet there!<br />
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Sadly though,it's about 'Mechanics'...use enough oil,don't tighten those nuts too much,(Pun intended along with wry chortle!),buff up all that rusty chrome,go easy on the brakes....and avoid the high kerbs when parking.....and don't SLAM the doors!<br />
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Kinesthetic<br />
Visual<br />
Auditive

nice read !

Thank you for contributing a very thoughtful 'other side' of this coin.

Well, you obviously did your work well because you met men who became friends and are great conversationalists. I'm not meaning any irony when I say "congratulations and good luck to you".

Congratulations, Men. You have been demoted to the status of "credit card." You are a dime a dozen, and since shes not interested in love means it's perfectly okay for her to say "to hell with gender equality."

P.S. I flagged this for "Attacks a group or individual" and encourage all men to do so as well. We are people too.

Wow! I guess some woman is doin' you wrong.

Crossroads, this post is written for women in sexless marriages who decide to outsource. It is not written for single/divorced women who want to date, or women who seek a love-based long term committed relationship. You must put the story in the correct context. This is for women in sexless marriages who need sex and maybe some intimacy. If it turns into something else, then this becomes a different story, okay?

Oh and by the way, the majority of affair-seeking men out there are players, just seeking variety. That is okay, but what woman in her right mind would pay for it if the ratio is something like 13 affair seeking men for every woman? Particularly since the odds are high he is just wanting novelty, and will be onto the next one whenever he gets the chance?

CrossroadsClark, I've flagged your comment for "Attacks a group or individual". See, while I don't necessarily agree with EinEngel's view, having been in a sexless marriage myself I can CLEARLY see where she's coming from, and I encourage all women to seek people who will treat her as at the very least an EQUAL. The point that EE makes about there being 10 men behind the guy who can't make up his mind is quite valid too - do you understand the principle of supply and demand?

OMG, you have to be kidding! Men do the same thing to women regarding sex just for sex sake. The perfect analogy are those married men who keep mistresses hanging on with the promise of leaving their wife and family.
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Are you a mummy's boy or something? Grow up!

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You're incredible! So secure, sensible and wise. Thank you for sharing!!

Well heck - there goes "dutch" and women's equality all in one fell swoop. I am not so invested in women's equality but I will miss her picking up the tip.

I find you right in some ways. Obviously important for people who make this choice to make a good choice. A man being vested and able to pay is part of that good choice. I would suggest that women (I may have heard about etc) do prefer to maintain control and independence, and allowing each party their vision of this is important to the trust required. My insight in fact has been that women who proved to be safe and sane were invested in planning aspects of the initial meetings.

Agree that outsourcing is not to be taken lightly to your other points.

Love this! Now if only i had the balls...

You're a woman, grab HIS balls! :-P

Excellent!

Off course I agree with others that outsourcing is not the longterm answer to a sexless marriage. I have been in the situation too and it might take care of a need in the beginning, but eventually you'll start resenting your partner for making you sneak around like this.

But there is such a long way from being broken down and desperate for someone to just touch you or look at you as a sexual being, to having the strength and determination to get up and leave. For a lot of people having an affair is the link between these two states.

I went through four affairs before I finally found the strenght to say: "I want to live my life with someone who wants me!"

To everybody else who reads and judge this: You have no idea how small you feel if the one person, who swore to love you for better and for worse, doesn't want you anymore. I have been through Hell several times, but the worst Hell is a bad marriage. You feel so incredibly lonely and still you can't leave because you think that that would only make you even more lonely. This, off course, isn't true. When you leave, you're "alone" not "lonely"... But you have to experience that in order to understand. Affairs give us a little bit of energy and selfesteem back to find out what we want for ourselves and to fight for a better future...

if you have to outsource, divorce. if you have kids and are outsourcing, divorce. Leave. Over time Your kids will respect you for making a grown up decision and not living a lie. Make the right decision, don't be married if you feel you will ever want/need to outsource under any circumstances.

P.S- if you arent married I dont care what you do, i like marriage and what it stands for. One person, one lover, until death.

If one person, one lover, until death is the solution for YOU, then so be it. But there are a lot of ways to live life, and others may not find your way to be the best fit for them.

There is NO one way to live life.

gry2big, Once upon a time, when I was a naïve teenager, I thought I had all the answers like you do. Difference is, I didn't try to tell adults with real life experience how to live their lives.

I think you've touched some nerves! I do think you are insightful and make very valid claims.

Nice read and great insight!

Interesting perspective. I'm not sure how Marriage is equated to quality or quantity of sex and this reading suggests that the solution is Outsourcing! If you have to go the route of outsourcing then what's the point of being married. At this point the marriage is hollow and based on a foundation of lies. People in these situations should just pack up and leave and enjoy as many sexual partners as he or she wants to have but on their own!

Again, the topic is a story for women in sexless marriages who have decided to outsource. Whether or not to outsource, whether or not the marriage can be fixed, whether or not to leave the marriage are separate topics addressed by other stories within ILIASM here on EP.

There are a myraid of reason to be married, and love is only but ONE OF THEM. A cursory look at the worlds' greatest literature will attest to that. Here are a list of valid reasons to marry: 1. To have children 2. To have insurance 3. Companionship 4. Finances 5. Family support 6. Artistocratic Titles (such as in Europe) 7. Political gain 8. and on an on. There are many ways to live life, and everyone won't follow the same romantic social script that is so ingrained in the Western love, marriage, baby till death do s part sexal fidelity script.

Outsourcing emotions?
That is what is going on.
For women for the most part where the mind goes so does the body.
If a woman finds herself in a relationship where "Love Died" then have the funeral and move on BEFORE all these other unneeded problems come up.
Same for men.
What is dead is dead-move on.
Why allow hang-ups to get you hung up?

PAY FOR?
Are you saying to these women to prostitute themselves?
What you suggest is what prostitutes do.
Think about it.

When "TWO" people decide to have sex for ANY reason it is two not one way.
One way is prostitution even at home!
If that is true then you would be doing your spouse's the same way.
Did you?
To me a woman with that attitude has that attitude and not sex.
Or a relationship.

Have sex for what it is....ONLY!
If you want Love start looking for it in the mirror first.
If there is no love there you won't find it in bed anywhere married or not or in any other person.

Anyone thinking another person will make you happy needs to race back to the mirror talk to that person!
Happiness is not a thing anyone can bring to you.
It is not a kit you assemble for someone.
It is a decision!
To be or Not to be.
Not a question...a decision.

Happiness must be in place already for ANY relationship to work.
Outsourcing...Like looking for something dry under water.
ALL PROBLEMS START WITHIN!

Look there first and if it is clear then tell the other to leave and not to return without their **** together because you don't need it around there.
That goes for anybody male or female.
Drama gets parked at the city dump not here.
If that is a problem then you are chemically out of balance and need professional help.

Never expect to find that at home unless you married the specialist.
There is something to outsource!

Pouring Fix a Flat on a blown out tire does not put the pieces back together.
What is broken is broken....REPLACE IT so you can start moving on in life.

I do not understand people who point fingers in all directions and go off half cocked and have not once looked at themselves as half or more of their own problem.

I know....It's Not My Fault!

Did you read down further where the entire prostitution angle was discussed already with Dr. Banner? Further, I already said that outsourcing is not about love. Mostly it is a short term fix. Thirdly, not everyone can easily exit his/her sexless marriage. It is much more complicated that just "getting out and moving on with life".

Anyway, your post is off topic. This story is for women who have already started to outsource. The question of whether to leave or stay, to outsource or not, has been addressed in various other stories by other ILIASM members.

Who is ILIASM?
A person place or a thing?
Off topic is in the eye of the beholder. as far as reading down farther goes, my comment was about what you wrote not that of others.

Oh my, now I can see you are in the wrong forum. ILIASM is the name of our group, called "I Live in a Sexless Marriage". The reason we read down the page to see the discussion comments is to make sure we do not repeat ourselves or bring up items that have already been addressed ad nauseum, and thereby waste nobody's time.

Hear hear,EinEngel!!

I could be in the wrong forum IF I have never had a sexless marriage.
Never heard it called that before is all.
I always heard it called a Sexless Marriage.
The reason I did not read down was to make a comment as to how I see it. Then if other see several with the same view then that alone speaks volumes.

Yep. 10061963L agrees with you. Which would put you two on level pegging on the ILIASM Mensa list.

I have no idea what you just said but...
It sounds interesting.

Can you expand on that?

10061963L was a chatbot. Mensa is an IQ test. Do the math.

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Your so rigjt

Makes sense to me

I loved your post. It's true and insightful. I am glad to know that there is someone out there similar to me.

One last thing (yeah right)
Hey guys, I've got an idea (he says excitedly!)
EinEngle, post this same topic in "I'm thinking of having an affair" and "Im having an affair" titled "Who Should Pay?" Great place for posting experiences for those who are and interesting to those of us who might.

JustMe2B, start one in "I'm thinking of having an affair" titled "I'm thinking of it. Is it right?" A little more focused and probably the right target group. I don't necessarily agree with you, but you are well spoken (maybe just a little bit less judgmental please) and make some good points to consider.

I'll start one in "I'm thinking of having an affair" titled "Looking for Intimacy or just Outsourcing?" Lots of room for discussion on that one. I'd be really interested in the range of thinking, and would help my understanding of the "market" out there.
Just saying. See you there?

I'm afraid I didn't see your response to a Dr. Banner below. I started reading the responses and was a few hundred into it before I posted. Then I spent another couple hours reading more. Never got to the end.
Wow! You are right. Besides the usual haters and trolls, there were a TON of non-ILIASM members coming out of the woodwork to comment. And WAY off track from your original post. Talk about drifting off topic.

Although somewhat new to EP, I at least (unfortunately) live in a sexless marriage, joined the appropriate groups for that and hope that I can speak here with more empathy and understanding, regardless of my own opinions and moral compasses. I've never had an affair so I've already blown that one. At least I'm in the "I'm thinking of having an affair" group, and I lurk in the "Im having/had an affair" group to see how it's done and how it is for those who have. In fact, that's why the heck I'm here! I've reached a point in my SM where I don't know what to do or think. I'm at a cross road and looking for others opinions and experiences and my compass is spinning out of control. Lol

I'm completely with nelliebum, mvcmvc, kbennyl and many others who are saying you really shouldn't be judging, especially so harshly, if you haven't been here, lived that. (BTY, mvcmvc has a wicked wit and is great at sarcasm. I loved the several "right on sister" type replies when she clearly had her tongue buried in her cheek! See New Resident Expert post. Lol)

Oops, speaking of Off Topic, I just did. Sorry. Just wanted to say I'm really glad I found these groups, learning a lot from others story's, appreciate any CONSTRUCTIVE advice/opinions and I'm tickled there are so many well spoken writers here (bazzar and mvcmvc come to mind and you ain't so bad at turning a phrase either) who can help me along my lonely path. I promise to TRY to only speak to that which I know, not be judgmental and will keep my mind open, tone light and what I hope, witty.
p.s. If I do have an affair, I'm still picking up the tab. Lol.

Love it!!

Lol! Your right. Back in my college dating days and when my SO was still into going out, I was amazed at how much time AND expense a woman had to expend in going out! I had one "all occasion" suit, that while expensive, did double duty for weddings and dating. And a funeral every once and in a while. I can't think of a woman ever wearing the same dress date after date. Lol I was outspent three to one easy.

I'm really sorry about the prostitution reference. I'm going to blame it on: it was late, I was on a writing roll and...damn, I got no excuse after that. How about...it made sense at the time? Tee hee? (chagrined look :) )

why can't a female plan all of this once in a while instead of the male? I don't think it's fair for both parties.

Damn, I know, as a guy, I shouldn't respond to this, but, how'd you put it? oh yeah.. "the hell with it". So here goes
I get your rant regarding the unfairness of one sided responsibilities in an affair and how you/me/we/us can be taken advantage of. How you/me/we/us can be so desperate for affection, touch, excitment, passion, and intimacy (not love) that we go over board trying to make it work.

But my typing you/me/we/us above hopefully made a point. We ALL should be careful about going to far, taking on too much of the burden. Even us guys.

Quite frankly, at time I resent the lopsided "odds" out there. You say "he wants sex" "make him pay for it all" "A line of 10 - 13 guys behind". Behind me? Willing to pay for it? Oops, did I just say pay... For sex.... With you? Money for sex. Just because you have it and I want it? "Who's the highest bidder? Step right up, there's only so much to go around and it's going fast!" Expensive call girls down to street prostitutes have made a killing at that for milinia , but isnt that a little debasing for all of us?

If I wanted to be taken advantage of, be with someone doesn't want to be an active participant, and just wants to use me, I'd stay at home. It's free. As much as I want. Night or day. Available 24/7.

Don't get me wrong. I think you and I are looking for two very different things. I'm looking for excitement, passion, desire, touch, laughing. Seeing the glint in a woman's eye, knowing that after the dinner/movie/concert/opera, whatever, that's there's going to be a good old fashion fun romp. That I've successfully made her feel so alive and "womanly" that we are both in for a treat neither one of us gets at home any more.

You want to "outsource".

Again, I get where your coming from. About being careful to not be taken advantage of. About not being so desperate that your soul gets tromped on, like at home. But jeez! I feel like an exploited piece of meat.

I know, go ahead. Say it. "About time Buddy! How's it feel. Shoes on the other foot huh?" Martin Luther King looked to the day when there would be no judgments, from any sides. No *** for tat. I've never treated anyone like a piece of meat. Why should I be judged and treated as that?

I took the liberty of editing StillMeJustDifferent's post below. Just changed the gender a little:
"Don't feel like you 'owe' this woman anything--meaning if she isn't giving you what you want, move the eff on. Don't settle for anything less than an enthusiastic, eager-to-please and excited woman. If you find yourself feeling like you're doing all the flirting/making eyes/double entendre, (and effort/paying) drop her *** and move on to the next woman."

Ouch! Sounds...what....crass? Neanderthal? At the least, crude, coming from a guy.

In parting, I do want to say I'm very old school. In that I believe no woman should be the one to make all the arrangements, shouldn't have to pay a dime, should be totally pampered. I love doing it. It makes me feel "manly", and plays to my male pride, which is kind of the point isn't it? I sure as hell get my male pride refused and dumped on at home! Lets get away for a bit and have some fun! I'm buying!

Right Itsjustus, then by the end of the day we agree, albeit for different reasons. As far as prostitution, I addressed that topic below with Dr. Banner. Anyway, I presume already that the woman affair partner is doing all she can to make him feel special. If you want to do an affair, do it right for heaven\'s sake- lingerie, brazilian waxing, attractive attire are all on the agenda. See the comments below about what the woman has already done, paid, given up, just to make herself available and ready.

Thanks for the advice. And for all the naysayers out there many people in sexless marriages sometimes go years if not decades in this situation before they decide to outsource - We're brought up to be so puritanical about the person we marry being the end all to our every need and when it eventually doesn't work (there's something in every marriage that doesn't work!), we're often stuck - be it from obligation to our children, actually still liking your spouse... whatever. "To have and to hold" is supposed to be forever, right?

That puritanicalism strikes hard if/when you do decide to hook up - and it's frankly unrealistic to expect that your spouse can provide you with everything you need for your entire marriage- that's why most married American work, right? But if he ignores you 'till you break down crying... If you can't resolve the issue but still love him, outsourcing may be the way -

I think that some of the other countries listed in this article have it right - (look for "The recipe for happiness? An enduring marriage and an affair with lots of sex" online from the Telegraph). The numbers of divorces in our country would drop if we got over our hangups about our spouses providing everything we need.

Okay,from what I've taken from this story is that you are neither condoning nor chastising infidelity. She is simply stating to each their own but if you CHOOSE to be unfaithful, this is what you should be aware of. We are here to support each others decisions, not condemn them for their choices or accuse them of anything. Be nice.

Yes, exactly.

EinEngel, I totally agree with your assessment. The only women who need to bother posting responses are women who live or, in my case, have experienced a sexless marriage. Thank you for your kind reminder to all who have low self-esteem..

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